Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[acryon]

Skelda is very consistent. I can't find inconsistencies with him.

I haven't said much about Chaos, but I have no good read on him aside from some possible association with scrambles. I did some meta research and he has about one scum game and it didn't reveal much to me. I guess I can see his vote on farside being some concerned townie but idk. I really don't know what to think about him.

Acyron, what makes Skelda and his replies seem scummy to you?

I have no idea what's going on.

UNVOTE:

I'll give this a try tomorrow.

I feel like this is a Towntell. I know I definitely felt this way just before my posts in this game. Would scum be less likely to say that they were confused? I dunno, I feel like Town are more open about how they are feeling.

I don't like this. This is a lot more often a scum-tell to me. Maybe just a difference in personal experience, but I don't like the idea of saying someone is town because of this.

And who's scum-reading me, and for what reason?

Not a fan of this post.

On a different note, instead of bickering over some GD issue and asking scummy questions, how do you feel about actually participating? Y'know, post your opinions about others, ask questions, take a look at posts that other people have found scummy/townish and throw in your opinion. You've seen the other people playing do this, it's your turn now.

I'm not sure who WOULD be a fan of that post.

Which of course begs the question of if scum would do something so blatantly scummy. He is new, and based on what he has given us so far, he just seems like an easy target to me. There is, of course, the off chance that he actually is scum, I don't think his play would be much different. But I don't think we have quite enough to make that decision yet. And most people seem to agree with me and have him as null.

I think having him as anything else is scummy

.

It is interesting how quickly the Chaos wagon is taking off. What is Chaos guilty of that Beli isn't other than not being around?

I don't like the bolded part at all. Seems like a dangerous sweeping comment to make. Also, the case against Chaos and Beli were completely different IMO.

Also, ten posts later:

I look at this and go, would scum be so flippant?

Yep!

God I loved that game.

UNVOTE:

You are clearly talented scum, so we should keep our eyes on you, but this is too Townie to ignore.

My top scumread is probably Chaos, but he has a lot of votes and so I'm not sure I want to join the horde. My top townreads are A.F.F. and NJ. A.F.F. because she is just town and Naked for his unique reads.

So anyone that has Chaos as something other than null is scummy, but Skelda's top scumread is Chaos?

There is a lot of condemning people for putting their vote on Chaos, but all they are doing is putting their vote where their reads are. They have the same scum-read as Skelda at that point, but are actually willing to be decisive about it. Hard to fault them for that.

VOTE: RoyalApe is a good vote I think.

Decides to jump on RoyalApe after others do. Just seemed like band-wagoning.

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

I sort of agree with this in theory, except that townreading scum is the actual worst thing you can do. So by townreading a whole bunch of people, you are probably letting some scum in. That is what is wrong with having a bunch of townreads.

I'm rethinking my Toby scum read.
Sometime I think she's just asking questions to look productive, then I read this page and I wonder if she just doesn't post thoughts all the time.

Skelda: why did you vote for Toby?

She was just someone who I didn't get particularly Town vibes from and I really didn't like the people who had votes. I am really not confident that she is scum, though.

Of the people with votes, I am most likely to go back to Beli. I really do not think that Chaos is scum. I guess I could see acryon, not really sure. But I am not in the mood to die Day 1 again.

Here his vote is on Toby, but he may go back to Beli, and he could also see me as scum, but maybe not. And he still thinks Ape is scum. Just a lot of apparent flip-flopping/indecision.

Do you not think AFF is just Town? I mean, her posts just exude Town. She's pretty much a universal townread at this point, there is no point in giving a better reason.

Sure there is. You should probably have your own conviction on your reads.

VOTE: Beli I guess. I dunno, if I'm going to be lynched I guess I wouldn't have a huge objection to it being today. What I do not want to do is survive by a thread and then hang around as an easy mislynch for the rest of the game.

CKD, I'm sorry I don't act Town enough for you then. I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking at the time of that post, but I was just addressing his points and not paying attention to whether or not he was scum. And I mean, that's horrible obviously. That's just poor play on my part. I really hate when you have a case built up against you that has plenty of valid points, if it weren't for the fact that you were Town.

But like I said, I really see myself being lynched at some point anyway. I'm really glad I wasn't scum this game because then you would have been right.

I don't like this AtE.

Oh, and I really hope we can get some sort of lynch before the day is up. If need be I'll switch to Chaos or myself just for the sake of a lynch.

Trying to be super-town here, but I don't quite buy it.

[acryon]

Sorry for the wall of quotes. ><

[TobyLoby]

I sort of agree with this in theory, except that townreading scum is the actual worst thing you can do. So by townreading a whole bunch of people, you are probably letting some scum in. That is what is wrong with having a bunch of townreads.

It may be the worst thing, but is it what Skelda is doing? You have to assume Skelda is scum to begin with.

[TobyLoby]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skelda

Out of the possible three leading wagons, Skelda has done done something that has made me think possible scum.

I'd be up possibly up for a scrambles quicklynch though. A counter-counter-counter wagon of sorts.

[acryon]

I sort of agree with this in theory, except that townreading scum is the actual worst thing you can do. So by townreading a whole bunch of people, you are probably letting some scum in. That is what is wrong with having a bunch of townreads.

It may be the worst thing, but is it what Skelda is doing? You have to assume Skelda is scum to begin with.

Eh, it's a bad thing whether he is town or scum. The only difference is his intention. If he is scum, he does it to try to buddy up and appear town. If he is town, he does it to try to narrow down scum, but can end up letting scum into his town-circle which can completely throws off his reads.

[TobyLoby]

Do you think Skelda is doing it to try and buddy up and appear town then?

[Baezu]

Vote Count 1.11

Chaoslord54: (3) Dry-fit, Snugglyduckling, Farside22
Belisarius: (4) Amy Farrah Fowler, NakedJogger, scrambles, Skelda
acryon: (1) Ranon
Skelda: (4) Curiouskarmadog , RoyalApe, Belisarius, TobyLoby

Not Voting: Chaoslord54, acryon

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-09-09 18:18:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[TobyLoby]

These are some pathetic wagons.

[RoyalApe]

@RoyalApe

,

But he has since tried to start a wagon on me after Jogger put out the scum read on me and then changed course to vote for you who I have null leaning good. I don't think I did anything in between his vote on me and his change to you to warrant a switch. But nobody else jumped on my wagon so it feels like he dismissed the wagon for being unfruitful.

I believe Skelda did jump onto me because of that and me specifically because he said didn't read me as town out of the bunch being voted for in post 316.

Part of these vote changes happened after you would have voted him though. Just for added clarification, what about your earlier exchange with Skelda made you think scum? What are your thoughts about what I said about Skelda in post 325?

Regarding your first point - Skelda had been more vocal in support of reading me as scum than that read on you though. So he is moving vote from scum read to a null read because there isn't traction?

My first scummy read on Skelda was the "hey this is townie, I know because I'm townie too" post. Those types of things always ping me. My response to the situation is 144

Regarding your final question - that is a possibility, but that is starting to presume too many things in my opinion.

[RoyalApe]

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

Defensive of himself. NakedJogger was on RoyalApe for a bit. The reply from Ape to Chaos read like a

delayed indirect OMGUS

to me. I'll admit I could be getting a little too far out there on this one.

294 from Chaos reads town to me, but at the same time I want to hear more from him. He read through all the pages and that is all he came up with? He's a null to me at this point.

Skelda's reaction to CKD's post is the kind of reaction I have definitely had as scum to similar statements in the past. Skelda is lean-scum for me.

That's a term I haven't heard before. Neat concept though.

[acryon]

Do you think Skelda is doing it to try and buddy up and appear town then?

Honestly not sure. I think exactly one of Beli and Skelda are scum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which. I think my case against Skelda is a lot better than my case against Beli, but that could just be the lack of content from Beli.

[acryon]

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

Defensive of himself. NakedJogger was on RoyalApe for a bit. The reply from Ape to Chaos read like a

delayed indirect OMGUS

to me. I'll admit I could be getting a little too far out there on this one.

294 from Chaos reads town to me, but at the same time I want to hear more from him. He read through all the pages and that is all he came up with? He's a null to me at this point.

Skelda's reaction to CKD's post is the kind of reaction I have definitely had as scum to similar statements in the past. Skelda is lean-scum for me.

That's a term I haven't heard before. Neat concept though.

Definitely a good bit of a stretch. Sometimes my imagination is too much

[RoyalApe]

I still think RoyalApe is scum. That never changed. You are exactly correct, I abandoned that wagon because it was proving to not be fruitful. If a whole bunch of people suddenly switched and said, "Ooo, RoyalApe, scummy." then I would be very happy to put my vote back there. But my Toby vote was just a compromise lynch of sorts.

And the whole thing about defensive being scummy...I think it is pretty normal for Town to want to defend themselves when they are being attacked. I get why doing that excessively is scummy, though. Gah, I am going to be lynched at some point in this game most likely. I just wish I wasn't so freaking suspicious all of the time.

And CKD, I didn't think I was buddying, I was just saying what I thought. How are you supposed to present townreads without seeming like you are buddying? If I have a feeling that someone is Town am I supposed to keep that to myself?

Why do you feel you need the town's support for your own reads? If you feel I'm scum, vote me. Moving your vote to appease the town is scummy.

[TobyLoby]

As for myself, I'm going to put my vote on Skelda. I didn't vote there after the last exchange because I wanted to step away to lose the emotion of the situation. My opinion hasn't changed, so I'll go ahead and put my vote.

VOTE: Skelda

But what about this particular exchange? This reads to me as you felt Skelda was scum due to your last exchange with her which occurred sometime during the NakedJogger vote and Skelda's vote on you.

[TobyLoby]

A vote for you would be so worthless right now. This is not the time to vote for your favourite possible scum.

[acryon]

Ugh, we have 10 hours. We really need to get a wagon going.
VOTE: Belisaurus

L-3, still a ways to go.

[scrambles]

Both chaos and skelda do the reasonably suspicious profile. Imo those are bad lynches.

they are suspicious but not worth a vote...but lets vote Bel, who provides 0 information with a flip..

(ALARMS)...this is a bad wagon..seriously.

Please. Just put your head on the desk.
I already explained your other question above too. And yeah, you just pointed out you misunderstood it because nothing you quoted proves what youre saying.

[Dry-fit]

I dont think people who are reasonably suspicious are ever mafia. Reasonably suspicious lynches deny all culpability to the lyncher. Safe lynches are never good lunches. I prefer something unsafe, like Beli.

Right. The player no one has a townread on is an unsafe lynch.

Unfortunately just in the interest of getting an actual lynch through I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Belisaurius.

Chaos should really be the lynch today though.

[scrambles]

He's valuable as a future mislynch? What? I don't think Chaos has made himself particularly anything. People talk about Chaos and his wagon being something to look into but I'm not seeing the votes constructed that way. It's all bs.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I took it as him saying Chaos is valuable to

scum

as a future mislynch, which I agree with. The best thing for scum is keeping people around that town is generally suspicious of. I don't think it was intentional, but certainly his early comments read as scum to people very quickly. This is great for scum.

This guy gets it.
why lynch someone who is capable of being a mislynch later (assuming town).
You keep them around and pressure another townie into making himself a target. You set up a string of these on day 1 and you can relatively protect yourself from almost anything.
Thats my opinion.

I know I have a flaw in explaining things but I didnt think it was that hard to figure out.

[Dry-fit]

You know what, I can't do it. The wagon is just too bad.

Unvote. Vote: Skelda.

[scrambles]

Dont really care about your opinion dry.
its not a $ safe as chaos or skelda. That was what I said. Dont twist my words.

Vote beli and go about your business.

[scrambles]

Pffft
Whatever

[TobyLoby]

If we want to go all in, we should get a wagon on Amy going instead.

[curiouskarmadog]

After your huge post 375 pointing out why Skelda is scum.

And then…

Honestly not sure. I think exactly one of Beli and Skelda are scum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which. I think my case against Skelda is a lot better than my case against Beli, but that could just be the lack of content from Beli.

you go?

Ugh, we have 10 hours. We really need to get a wagon going.
VOTE: Belisaurus

L-3, still a ways to go.

What?


this is noted.

[scrambles]

Your bullying is noted