Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[ChannelDelibird]

Man, I wish I'd made myself write up the full version of the Amy case during the night. This is a conversation that should be less fragmented than it currently is so I do apologise for you not having the properly elucidated points to which to respond. I really can't promise that it'll come before Thursday, though.

What I can definitely mention in the interim, though, is that self-votes are scummy. Here's everything you could ever need to know about why, and why I want it brought up in particular when so many people were widely townreading you in those early stages of the Day.

[TobyLoby]

I don't think Chaos or CDB's content has been all too scummy. But I do think Chaos' actions are scummy given the flip.

At the end of D1, Chaos votes for not-scum read Skelda over Beli whom he didn't mention before. Skelda also defended Chaos prior. As I said earlier, this indicates that Chaos was not just going through the motions, town or scum. He had to make an active decision.

His vote:

Okay so I was looking through what I miss and I do not understand why there is such a big wagon building on Belisarius...I mean the cases against him are not put together very well and the speed it built after there has not really been a large wagon on him the entire day is alarming.

Vote:Skelda
The biggest reason for my vote against Skelda is for this reasoning..Skelda did not bring up a lot of reasons for his vote on Beli and his comments and willingness to be lynched in 346 and the way he sounds with his last posts and lack of posting now here just seems scummy to me.

Now take a look at his scum read on Nakedjogger,

Now the person I think comes off the scummiest IMO is nakedjogger. Nakejogger had been pushing for a RoyalApe lynch for most of D-1 and then out of nowhere votes Farside with no explanation? That seems scummy to me.

Among other things, you can conclude Chaos does not like naked votes or votes with little reasoning.

1. The Skelda wagon also built with speed when there was no wagon on him earlier that day
2. Beli did not bring up any reason to vote Skelda, and only voted Skelda as a sheep vote.
3. Beli also said he would vote himself to prevent a no lynch before his vote.

Beli hits almost all the same notes as Skelda, if not more. So why not-scum Skelda over Beli?

D2 rolls around.

1. Beli makes a vote on CKD after calling Amy scum. Beli only mentioned CKD once D1 and this read comes out of left field.

Chaos doesn't like votes with no reasoning. Chaos doesn't like votes with little reasoning. Chaos thinks Beli is town. This isn't consistent.

Discuss.

[TobyLoby]

What I can definitely mention in the interim, though, is that self-votes are scummy. Here's everything you could ever need to know about why, and why I want it brought up in particular when so many people were widely townreading you in those early stages of the Day.

This isn't arguing that it is scummy, only that it is scum who benefits from a self-vote. It is arguing that you shouldn't self vote as town because you get no benefit from it and later by others that it's anti town. It's an argument to stop town self-voting to help eliminate it as legitimate tool for scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

I am inclined to explicitly call it scummy rather than anti-town because it benefits scum more than town but I am willing to concede that I may fall on the harsher side of that thin wall of wording in this case in part because others were using it as a reason for Amy to be town, which it was not. It is a pet peeve of mine. "RVS" is not an excuse; it is a denial of information.

[Riddleton]

That's one hell of an overreaction, AFF. :/ It makes me even more happy with my vote.

I kind of agree with CDB in that self votes,

most of the time

are useless. There are exceptions though, of course such as if you are at L-1 near a deadline (as town). Self-voting during RVS is more often that not scummy.

[TobyLoby]

Riddle, commentary on what I said about Chaos please.

[TobyLoby]

There is no argument here about self-votes being useless, only whether or not they indicate scum or are scummy. I think someone after raising a fit and then voting themselves out of self pity is scummy. Doing it out of RVS is more of a mixed bag because both alignments will do it under the same circumstance. It's partly why there is a call to end it.

Riddleton, do you think Amy's self-vote makes her scummy? If yes, is there anything in particular about her self vote that you think is scummy, or do you think her self voting regardless is scummy?

[scrambles]

I actually thought her self vote, in this specific situation this game, in rvs, loodke extremely town. I thinkn I might've mentioned it earlier but I might have not.

[TobyLoby]

Scrambles, commentary on what I said about Chaos?

Why and how does CKD make a lot of sense to you?

[TobyLoby]

Regarding Amy,

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

I thought this post was possibly a (scum) Amy gearing up for a Beli town lynch. As in, there was an other excuse available to her (Beli needing to be policy lynched anyway) after the (town) Beli flip. Obviously, this didn't happen and why I'm not following that.

Amy calling out Chaos and CKD as scum while voting for another person is something I see scum do to their scum buddies. They call them scum or scummy and then vote town. It's why I questioned her on why Beli vs them. Obviously, this is not a scenario that has occurred.

I do think Amy is town. I think a lot of what she's said has made sense and she has been consistent in her main scum reads.

[scrambles]

Scrambles, commentary on what I said about Chaos?

Why and how does CKD make a lot of sense to you?

The commentary just now? Im actually at work at the moment (waiter) ill get to it when I have the chance. Just wanted to point out what I thought about aff on that rvs self vote

[scrambles]

Oh and about the scummy calling vs vote. I tend to see the opposite. Scared to vote townies, vote teammates, fos townies.

[Titus]

Scarmbles, random question. Can you link me to all finished games you have and include the proximate timeframe.

[acryon]

Regarding Amy,

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

I thought this post was possibly a (scum) Amy gearing up for a Beli town lynch. As in, there was an other excuse available to her (Beli needing to be policy lynched anyway) after the (town) Beli flip. Obviously, this didn't happen and why I'm not following that.

Amy calling out Chaos and CKD as scum while voting for another person is something I see scum do to their scum buddies. They call them scum or scummy and then vote town. It's why I questioned her on why Beli vs them. Obviously, this is not a scenario that has occurred.

I do think Amy is town. I think a lot of what she's said has made sense and she has been consistent in her main scum reads.

So you do think that Amy's threat to self-vote in her recent post is scummy, but she is town overall?

[curiouskarmadog]

Okay have some time, going to break down the wagon yesterday to see if anything can be gleaned from it.

Okay think I will take it from this vote count.

Vote Count 2.02

Farside22: (1) NakedJogger
Amy Farrah Fowler: (1) Chaoslord54
Belisarius: (2) Amy Farrah Fowler, acryon
Curiouskarmadog : (1) Belisarius
Chaoslord54: (2) Farside22, Curiouskarmadog

Not Voting: scrambles, Snugglyduckling, Ranon, RoyalApe, TobyLoby

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-09-26 16:55:00)

Mod Notes:
None

At this point, Farside and I were on the Chaos wagon (going to say CD from now on). Acryon and AFF were on Bel with

I feel like right now if one of Beli/CKD/Chaos is scum then so are the other two.

Vote: Belisarius

And

FWIW, I also have Beli as my top scum-read.

VOTE: Belisaurus

NJ also joined the wagon (546), but quickly went farside.

So CD/Bel was 2/2

Toby joins Bel wagon in 601, makes it 2/3

Scrambles joins Bel wagon in 634, makes it 2/4

Toby comes off Bel wagon after thinking about it in 696, makes it 3/3

Then immediately unvotes in 697, making it 2/3

Riddle votes Bel in 731, makes it 2/4

Toby rejoins in 808, to make it 2/5

Titus joins the Chaos wagon, to make it 3/5

Someone who doesn't think chaos/beli are scum together need to sell me on scum motivation from beli not looking to self preserve

Interesting quote…I first read this and I think. Yeah Farside is right….then I think…why isn’t farside joining the Bel wagon at this point if she believes this?

CD comes in (after replacing) joins Bel wagon, to make it 3/6

??? Naked Jogger (fucking useless) joins CD wagon, to make it 4/6

Titus hammers Bel, though I think NJ had already said he/she would.

…

The only thing that really sticks out is Toby’s abandonment of the Bel wagon (again) making the vote 3/3, then 2/3. Joins the wagon again 200 posts later making it 2/5. This isn’t huge..but still a thing because that is twice that Toby has come off a Bel wagon at a potential crucial time. though I feel like a scum buddy would not have immediately unvoted the counter wagon.

Need to check something though…(to be continued)

[Titus]

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

[curiouskarmadog]

And last but not least, I'm happy with my 'elaborate' triple scumread. It works, and I connected the dots that way, and we have one scum down.
You're scum #2, I know that much.
CKD has been slowly reducing in scumminess, although I'm not happy with that. I think I'm less inclined to scumread people who contribute a lot of non-fluff. But I'm still aware of the associative tell (or at least that's kind of how I interpreted it) and with Beli flipping scum, I'm going to point out that that's still out there.

(consider this comment a reverse WIFOM post)Okay going to help you out there a little bit. As Scum, I also post a lot of “non-fluff”, if you meta my scum games, you will see that I will go after a scum buddy mightily if I feel like they might be coming off scummy to the town. So I know you are saying I am townish for non-fluff posting, but I am telling you I do that as scum too. Now that I am telling you this, what are your thoughts on me now? Still less inclined to scumread me?

CKD = scum then Beli = scum (defence of Beli, deflected wagon)
Beli = scum then Chaos = scum (protectiveness, made up an imaginary wagon earlier in the game), a little more so than CKD (as mentioned above)
Chaos = scum then Beli = Scum (defence, as mentioned above)

I guess I am confused how I got downgraded in my scumminess between 588 and 948. I mean with Bel flipping scum, given your rationale I should have been MORE scummy right?

I am asking this, because I am trying to understand your reasoning for scumreads (for everyone/or in general/for CD) in this game.

[curiouskarmadog]

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

since I was gone at the time when you hammered I am not sure about this, how much time was left in the day when you hammered?

also, "VCA"? whats that? and why are you going to die?

[acryon]

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

Except I did ask him if he could and he said yes. It would certainly look pretty bad on his part of he didn't come back and finish the job like he said.

[curiouskarmadog]

Fuck not doing night kill speculation.

Day 1 DryFit’s main suspects? Farside and Chaos.

maybe...or maybe.

@dryfit: do you agree with what Toby/duck feel about acryon?If so why?

No. I have acryon as being pretty null right now.

RoyalApe, who is scum?

No clue yet. Who do you think is scum?

Chaoslord. Maybe farside.

Still a big fan of the Chaos wagon.

Hey CKD it's been a while. Read up and vote Chaos <3

Who besides chaos do you think is scum?

Maybe farside.

Would still massively prefer a Chaos lynch. .

Unfortunately just in the interest of getting an actual lynch through I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Belisaurius.

Chaos should really be the lynch today though.

I am a feeling Dry was a perceived threat.

rereading Dry, I guess my theory might not be as original as i thought.

NakeJogger? In all of his uselessness?

VOTE: farside22

Been eating pizza.

acyron, brief what are your reads for those on each wagon? brief brief reads

Belisarius:
Amy Farrah Fowler - Town
NakedJogger - Town
scrambles - Null
Skelda - Scum
acryon - Me

Skelda:
Curiouskarmadog - Town
RoyalApe - Null
Belisarius - Scum
Dry-fit - Null

What about farside, man?

unvote

VOTE: farside22

So what took you off that beli wagon?

A townie would've asked what brought me on in the first place, anyway. I think you're scum and should be lynched today.

Ok so farside has been inquiring a lot about a lot of people,

which should amount to her catching scum. If she doesn't we can still lynch her in lylo.

VOTE: Royal Ape

Can't say the same for his primate highness. I will switch to Belisarius or anyone else for that matter. I need to reread this thread.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

RJ’s suspects were Farside/Royal Ape/Bel(maybe?)/CD (sound like in that order?)

I think scum perceived these two as threats. I am not buying Toby’s “maybe they got a whiff of a PR”.

I would vote CD or Farside at this point (leaning farside).

want to check a couple other things...dont have the time atm.

Also why is RoyalApe not been replaced?

[acryon]

Haven't though about it more critically just yet, but at the moment that all seems really on-point.

[curiouskarmadog]

This isn’t huge..but still a thing because that is twice that Toby has come off a Bel wagon at a potential crucial time. though I feel like a scum buddy would not have immediately unvoted the counter wagon.

just rechecked this (last post of the day I think)...I got Toby and Acyron mixed up...Ac came off the Bel Wagon Day one at the crucial time. Though Toby came off with him, it wasnt as pivotal as I thought/remembered when posting this this line. Still think it is worth noting the Toby DID come off the wagon twice.

[Titus]

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

since I was gone at the time when you hammered I am not sure about this, how much time was left in the day when you hammered?

also, "VCA"? whats that? and why are you going to die?

As town, my VCA (vote count analysis) has generally been spot on in larges and any scumteam would fear that. Right now I want to sort scrambles and acyon.

There was less than a day when I hammered and I waited until I was out for the day to hammer.

[Baezu]

Vote Count 3.01

scrambles: (1) Titus
ChannelDelibird: (1) Amy Farrah Fowler
Amy Farrah Fowler: (3) ChannelDelibird, Farside22, Riddleton

Not Voting: acryon, scrambles, Curiouskarmadog , RoyalApe, TobyLoby

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-10-13 16:30:00)

Mod Notes:
Prodding RoyalApe

[TobyLoby]

Regarding Amy,

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

I thought this post was possibly a (scum) Amy gearing up for a Beli town lynch. As in, there was an other excuse available to her (Beli needing to be policy lynched anyway) after the (town) Beli flip. Obviously, this didn't happen and why I'm not following that.

Amy calling out Chaos and CKD as scum while voting for another person is something I see scum do to their scum buddies. They call them scum or scummy and then vote town. It's why I questioned her on why Beli vs them. Obviously, this is not a scenario that has occurred.

I do think Amy is town. I think a lot of what she's said has made sense and she has been consistent in her main scum reads.

So you do think that Amy's threat to self-vote in her recent post is scummy, but she is town overall?

I think it's scummy wifom as she said she'd so it as scum and if she doesn't what then(?), but that doesn't necessarily make her scum because of it.