Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[acryon]

How about Dyx, do you have Dyx as town? Let's flip Dyx which will actually even give *insight* into the Thor/Blair false dilemma people are excited about.

Dyx is null to me right now. I think a Thor flip would be good.

[Thor665]

I confess that I straight up have not been reading some of your banter with Thor more recently, largely because it appears to be going nowhere productive and is taking up a lot of space. Sorry about that.

Regarding you using the word illogical to attack the man:

you appeared to be attacking poor logic... illogically.

That quote right there is what I'm referring to. You are not referring to anything OTHER than Thor in that sentence. I get that that may not have been your intention, but I don't believe that you can't see that the argument was not mentioned in that block. You then used illogical in #193 to attack the argument, this much is true, and I think what you looked at when you made the last post.

My fenceposting on you has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

This said, you have spent a majority of your posts so far defending other players (and occasionally yourself), with no overt accusations being made against anyone until the most recent post. This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting. The fact you're attacking me rather than one of the more popular targets is also indicative of that- you appear to have arrived at Phillascum through your own thought processes. Shame they're wrong, but hey, it's better than not thinking at all.

[droog]

i would rather believe that thor and blair are both scum than that only one is

[Fink]

If you truly want to gain some useful information from a flip, shouldn't Bins and I both be allowed to live at least one day, so we have some more votes and talking to look through in light of our flips? There are 3 dead already, but the problem was they don't give very much information. Lynching the next two that would reveal the least seems weird.

Oh, and Thor is 2 people's #2 scum pick, which combined with acryon's vote means he has 3 people willing to vote for him, just like the others. Why write it off so quickly?

[Not_Mafia]

Bins is being replaced in conjunction with her ban.

[Thor665]

i would rather believe that thor and blair are both scum than that only one is

Well, if you believe this than your current vote is pretty bad, and if you're just making a joke about it then I don't know why you asked me to explain a false dilemma in the first place.

@Fink - I'm pretty neutral on the case on you, but, no, no your lurking does not preclude you from a lynch today in the hopes that you will provide more later. I do not support that as an idea.

[Fink]

My point, Thor, was that I'm not lurking, but YYR was. Scum or town, am I not providing more things to analyze after I'm dead than he was? Why isn't it valuable to allow me the time to vote a few more times, interact with more people etc. I'd think that would provide much more information. But if I had been lurking all game, I'd totally agree with you.

I'll think the same thing about Bins' replacement too. But am I being totally crazy here, because this makes sense to me?

[Fink]

These two points went completely uncommented on, I'd like some thoughts please.

• Phillammon telling wgeurts in post 134 ""If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads" I didn't notice this when I read through that exchange myself, but it does seem like the kind of thing where town should be worrying that wgeurts is idiot-scum, and thus should NOT be warning him of a potential trap. On the other hand, scum knew he was town and wouldn't really be thinking about it.
  
  
• In post 275, setting up a future vote on YYR in the event that wgeurts flips town, but would do more analysis if wgeurts flips scum. He's approaching this as if he thinks wgeurts is probably town, but wgeurts is Phillammon's strongest scum-read (post 162), he doesn't want to do any more analysis now. But why wouldn't his main plan be based around that wgeurts would flip scum as he had implied before. To me the implication is that he knew the answer.

[Phillammon]

I deleted this, cause it didn't say much either way. New replacement new read.

So I was about to pronounce Dys "null-town but making some odd statements" until I saw this. This right here worries me.

Town Behaviour: Make reads on players in order to determine who is scum, in order to find out which slots are scum.
Not Town Behaviour: Make reads on players in order to determine who, in the subset of

slots

who are NOT scum, most looks like scum, in order to find out which

players

can be run up for a mislynch.

Dissociating reads from slots is not rational unless you already know the slot's alignment, and that puts Dys off the fence for me onto the scum pile. (This said, wanting to get reads to ADD to the slot is fine, but discarding the reads when the player changes altogether is not okay). This said, the YYR/Fink slot is still worse to my eyes, but only marginally.

Catching up on things that *aren't* Dys' ISO, give me a moment if anyone's asked me anything.

PEdit: ...there's a certain irony that I'm making this argument at the same time as getting called out for something similar (also, the first comment was picked up on, look back). 134 was indeed a mistake, this is valid, and I apologize for that. 275, that was a case of "I do not have time to do analysis right now, particularly not analysis that has a possibility of becoming redundant"

[Dyslexicon]

Dyslexicon:

What exactly did you want clarification on in my #401? I'm more than happy to answer, but I'm unclear on what the question is.

I meant I needed to clarify to you. I did, 492.

@Dyx - how many of my games did you read/skim/look over? Just the two?

Two where you were scum, but I looked over more of the recent ones cause I used the search posts function and didn't know beforehand what games you were scum or not. Don't know if there's an easier way to do this.

the thor wagon is not moving today
everyone loves to attack thor but no one wants to commit

personally i want some more flips before thor/blair

so join me on the yyr slot

VOTE: vote: fink

Everyone does not love to attack Thor. Thor loves to attack everyone that disagrees with him. I've seen three people being willing to vote Thor, and a lot of people have him as a town read for some reason. You've said multiple times that it's popular to attack Thor. How is it any more popular than to attack me for "not providing content" or other BS variations of Thor's endless stream of whateveritis? Or attacking Phil for that matter?

Not at all interested in voting Fink.

How about Dyx, do you have Dyx as town? Let's flip Dyx which will actually even give *insight* into the Thor/Blair false dilemma people are excited about.

What are you even talking about here? What insight?

Phillammon looks much worse, seems stretching a lot for pushing any of several

mislynches

in #328,

especially as reading through this, the several clarifications on the case on my predecessory were lost in the noise to me reading it, I find it hard to believe it's so obvious and unlikely to him that others could also lose that in the noise.

btw was this a slip?
need to find #328 manually since the link heads to a different game

I do wonder, why did you not adress this, Fink?

I have my thoughts. Still think Fink is town.

How about Dyx, do you have Dyx as town? Let's flip Dyx which will actually even give *insight* into the Thor/Blair false dilemma people are excited about.

Dyx is null to me right now. I think a Thor flip would be good.

How am I null. Have I not provided enough for you to have a read or at least a feel on me either way?

[Dyslexicon]

---


@Thor, 498. 1a. The alligations that I'm posting more thoughts because I was called out for not doing it is so ugly, because a) I post more thoughts and you can call it scum cause oh no I had to post thoughts or b) I don't post more thoughts and you can ceep calling me scum because I'm not posting thoughts.
1b. The alligations that I didn't have solid reads are shit in the first place cause it was at a time not everyone had posted content anyway, a lot of other players did not have solid reads either (very few I believe, if any), and I didn't have a feel for the game yet.
1c. Someone (don't remember who, maybe Fink) suggested i was town being guilty I hadn't "contributed content" or whatever yet. I want to clarify that I'm not guilty. I just didn't have that strong of an opinion or a feel of everyone in the game. I didn't have a sense of the larger picture and how all of the players interact as a whole. ¨

2. Now your issue is that I asked you for games and going for "fake scumhunt points". I've explained this up and down, and if you've decided to not listen to me and ram on your way (as you obviously have and you've not listen to ANYTHING I've said ever, and I don't think you will) then fine. This is something I can't prove. It should be evident from my posts that my actions are town. Players can go back and see. You are the only one obsessing about this. This is the only thing you're even saying about me, apart from not agreeing (or even reading? Seriously, cause your "summations" sounds like fiction) with what I say. I'm so over adressing this. Which leads me to...

3. ...if you're so convinced I'm scum, why are you not adressing obvious things as how I called out Johnny D1? Or how I acted around wgeurts, asking him to contribute if he were town? Why are you not even trying to show me as scum as a whole, you're just. You know what. I don't even know. If this is your actual town play color me extremely underwhelmed.

---

Does Thor's "case" on me convince anyone of you guys? Why, why not? I want stances on this. If people want to vote me I want reasoning.

To me it seems like a cop out. A lazy vote with a lot of repetitive arguing over something I can't prove or disprove. He's not interested in listening to anyone but himself. I fear (and there's a reason I use this phrasing) that he's using it as a scum tactic to rally against anyone that will be likely to vote him and talk back to him. If he's scum and he succeeds in lynching a couple of town that wants to lynch him I fear that he'll be able to ram himself arguing semantics to victory.

---

I like Blair less. Especially 526, "Yes, if Dys is lynched and flips scum it would be perfectly reasonable to find my defense of her suspicious - that is a tell I wouldn't argue with. (Hold me to it!)". This does not seem town to me. It sound like you're not at all worried that I will flip scum. Which is curious, cause what she calls a "defense" of me doesn't sound very convincing to me.

---

What is up with me and Phil getting compared?
Can someone please answer me what and Alt is? I'm foreign and haven't played on here in ages. I also had a question about the replacement, asking how usual it is and what it might mean. Would be most thankful if someone would care to answer.

---

@Phil, 558, The reason I deleted the things I wrote about YYR in the first place was because my post was already so long, I didn't want to have too much unnecessary stuff there, and the read was highly inconclusive due to lack of involvement from YYR. If you or anyone really want to know my main point was that I thought "yeah, could be scum" after reading Droog's case but it didn't really convince me in any way. Since a replacement was here I expected to be able to read him better. In short: more of a null read on YYR and nothing I thought was worth spending words on as I'm naturally wordy anyway.

I would like you to adress the points in mine and Fink's case.

---

@shadows, I understand business. Please flesh out your reads and stances when you do have the time. I have a hard time remembering where you stand and especially why, unfortunately.

---

I would still lynch Phil or Thor, and not anyone else. Maybe Blair as a comromise.
All players reading the above as town, please state reasons why if you already haven't?

---

(I'm sorry if I'm coming across as bitchy in this post. I'm being a bit smack smack, because I do get emotionally invested in games. Have a heart <3)

[Dyslexicon]

@Phil, I would also appreciate some examples whenever you say things are "odd" or that people are having "odd statements" or saying "odd things", or that you are more specific in describing that they are things you don't agree with or things that doesn't make logical sense to you or whatever makes it "odd", because I don't know what you mean when you say this. It could mean about anything.

[Fink]

Regarding the mis-aimed link: it was my second "real" (about anything in a game) post on this site and I mis-used the post tag. I'm still not actually sure how it is supposed to work, since I don't know why it's redirecting to where it is. But I know it's not allowed to edit posts, I since linked the correct post a couple other times using quotes or URLs, and Thor had quoted the relevant post in it's entirety in response to Droog before I got on today. I really didn't know what else needed to be said.

No, I do not think misunderstand how the [post tag works is a tell. Especially because I correctly linked the same post in other places on the same subject.

Not sure what I should have done/said?

[Fink]

Regarding Blair:

The "if Dys flips scum, vote me, hold me to it" thing does come across as very confident, but without the context of other things it sounds like it could be a confident town-read by town. It seems perfectly likely that Blair could be frustrated with Thor and conceding this point because she has Dys as a strong town-read.

Now I

can

see the argument for it as a scum-perspective, I don't think that's crazy, and admittedly my read on Blair swung back and forth when I caught up on the thread, but I don't think that's enough to push me to a scum read on Blair. If there is more evidence, I could see it on another day, but today, with what we know now, I have no interest in lynching Blair.

Thor has swung back and forth for me, but he really seems to be doing a lot of accusing people of not reading things, and making every little thing into a 5-post exchange with "well I thought I explained that fine" instead of

actually clarifying anything

. And I don't find his posts to be as clear as he makes them out to be, just sort of dismissive of other people and their points without backing it up much.

I have no idea what Thor's actual case on Dyslexicon

is

, even after going back and rereading that post.

@Thor, instead of responding to this by saying "I think it's clear enough", could you just explain? Walk me through why I should be voting for Dyslexicon.

[droog]

fink have you played mafia on other sites before

[Fink]

Yes. As well as in person.

I'd rather not name the site though, as it was years ago and I made an ass of myself. I'm trying

not

to be stupid or assish here.

[Fink]

I got back into this because some friends and I played a couple games in the chat of VASSAL (internet board game playing program - module for a different game) and I realized I wanted to play some more. Once I decided to get into the internet thing again, and at the source as-it-were, I started reading some games and some strategy articles here. I've read all of the Mastin-academy stuff, for example. And most of the strategy articles on the wiki. Can't say I've absorbed them all, but I'm trying.

I'm elaborating because I figure the reason you're asking is because I've been using some of your lingo.

[droog]

I've read all of the Mastin-academy stuff

wow
i thought mastin academy was designed to discourage people from reading into theory

asked because your last few responses looked too good for a newbie
could have implied coaching

im probably going to reread
town isnt giving me any easy hints this game

[Fink]

Thanks? Anyway, here's a post I've been working on for a while, we're theorhetically into Shaddowez paying attention time now. Got thinking about this while trying to figure out what YYR was doing on day 1. (Still not sure, but is it worth posting my thinking on that, or is that just useless at this point?)

Spoiler: The "Useful Defense" discussion

Pretend Cheetos have a direct answer. Then what?

1) a discussion about how useless meta is
2) a discussion of Johnny's past meta
3) a throwaway answer that leads nowhere
4) someone calls it dumb

^my best guess.

I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question

But he didn't have a direct answer. Also, I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular. You never know what can come out of something, but I was never the organized type.

This looks like a useful defense for later in the game.

What do you mean by "useful defense"?

I mean that saying "useful scumhunting" doesn't look like anything in particular seems like a good setup to be able to not do much. If people later on down the road say "it doesn't look like Dys is doing much in the ways of useful scumhunting", you could say "Well, I am scumhunting in my own way, how do you know what "useful scumhunting" looks like?"

I could. And so could anyone else. It works for anyone. It's not meant to be "useful defense", it's just how I see the game. I very much view this as a people game, and people are different. Which is much excite.

You are correct. However, you are the one that specifically said that (paraphrasing) "useful scumhunting doesn't have a particular look". That's why I called you out on it, and said it looked like you could be setting up a defense for later.

@Shaddowez: You seem to have come back to this pretty strongly as a scummy thing about Dyslexicon lately, but it was Droog who first said "useful scumhunting", Dyslexicon had just come in 2 posts later to argue with him about whether or not YYR's thing was pointless, essentially saying that he shouldn't be ruling things out as pointless so quickly. So Droog

did

have an opinion that this was useless while Dyslexicon

did

have the opinion you don't like (nothing is necessarily useless), fair enough. But isn't it weird to jump on this as Dyslexicon setting up a useful defense, seeing as it was in reply to "I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question"?

I mean you seem to be giving this a lot of weight, but in context of that section of the thread, it seems more like a throw-away "Don't be so quick to shut down discussion" sort of comment. Why does it seem so significant to you?

Why

isn't

it a null-read we-think-about-things-differently comment?

[Fink]

Oh, speaking of coaching: Experienced players (especially Thor), given that scum can talk during the day, what would that

look

like. Personal suspicions aside, what should we be looking for as evidence of that?

[Thor665]

My point, Thor, was that I'm not lurking, but YYR was. Scum or town, am I not providing more things to analyze after I'm dead than he was? Why isn't it valuable to allow me the time to vote a few more times, interact with more people etc. I'd think that would provide much more information. But if I had been lurking all game, I'd totally agree with you.

And my point is that players are not exempt for lynching for the idea of future interactions.
I will agree interactions are beneficial, I disagree that the lack of them qualifies as a reason not to lynch someone. If you agree with that then we have no issue.

These two points went completely uncommented on, I'd like some thoughts please.

• Phillammon telling wgeurts in post 134 ""If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads" I didn't notice this when I read through that exchange myself, but it does seem like the kind of thing where town should be worrying that wgeurts is idiot-scum, and thus should NOT be warning him of a potential trap. On the other hand, scum knew he was town and wouldn't really be thinking about it.
  
  
• In post 275, setting up a future vote on YYR in the event that wgeurts flips town, but would do more analysis if wgeurts flips scum. He's approaching this as if he thinks wgeurts is probably town, but wgeurts is Phillammon's strongest scum-read (post 162), he doesn't want to do any more analysis now. But why wouldn't his main plan be based around that wgeurts would flip scum as he had implied before. To me the implication is that he knew the answer.

1. By the time someone is being asked for a reads list prior to lynch they'd have to be pretty dense scum not to be able to puzzle that one out. I personally only ask for this on the presumption the player might be town. If they are scum I ignore the post entirely and think it is foolish to do otherwise. I suppose that if he thought, like you claim to, that the final scum post should be analyzed, that...yeah...maybe? I dunno, do you honestly think any scum are confused about what to do at that point? I don't believe this, so the point doesn't sell me, but if you believe scum can be fooled like that I guess I see the point.

2. To my mind this is called 'having other reads and being open about them' which I take as pro-town. He's not approaching it as if he thinks wgeurts is town, he's approaching ti with an awareness that he might be and is thus paying attention to the wagon. It also makes sense in how he's suspecting wgeurts, who he is citing for being scummy in how Cheetory was lynched, and now he's noting potential suspicion if wgeurts was town. I can see your point, but see no real evidence for it. I think this is a gut read as it can be read either way.

I like Blair less. Especially 526, "Yes, if Dys is lynched and flips scum it would be perfectly reasonable to find my defense of her suspicious - that is a tell I wouldn't argue with. (Hold me to it!)". This does not seem town to me. It sound like you're not at all worried that I will flip scum. Which is curious, cause what she calls a "defense" of me doesn't sound very convincing to me.

That is the most pro town thing you have said all game.

Unvote: Dyslexicon
Vote: Blair

Oh, that said, your rebuttal of my points was silly-sauce, but I don't see a value in explaining why at this point.

I have no idea what Thor's actual case on Dyslexicon

is

, even after going back and rereading that post.

@Thor, instead of responding to this by saying "I think it's clear enough", could you just explain? Walk me through why I should be voting for Dyslexicon.

Well, right now - no, I have no desire to do so.
That said, I thought I explained it pretty well point by point in this post;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6251554
If you can explain where I lost you I'll clarify.

Would you like to vote Blair now?

[Thor665]

Oh, speaking of coaching: Experienced players (especially Thor), given that scum can talk during the day, what would that

look

like. Personal suspicions aside, what should we be looking for as evidence of that?

Well...quick topics?

Theoretically the only possible evidence would be if someone made a post/play that you considered of higher quality than their play skill so that the conclusion would be that they had coaching to put it together in daytalk. It also helps with fakeclaims, though I don't think that will be an issue you could spot in this game.

[Fink]

And my point is that players are not exempt for lynching for the idea of future interactions.
I will agree interactions are beneficial, I disagree that the lack of them qualifies as a reason not to lynch someone. If you agree with that then we have no issue.

Sure, completely agree. I just think that if you have two likely options, the one that is a new replacement of a lurker is worth putting on the back burner for more interactions. If I'm anyone's top read that makes sense, to vote for me, but given the case on YYR, I'm not sure why that would be

top

. Given the choice between two, I think I should be less preferential

today

. That is what I was getting at. And actually, for the people who have YYR as their

top

scum read,

why is that?

Is that weird stuff really the most suspicious thing all game? I've found reasons to suspect a bunch of people (some of whom I'm fairly confident are town at this point.)

1. By the time someone is being asked for a reads list prior to lynch they'd have to be pretty dense scum not to be able to puzzle that one out. I personally only ask for this on the presumption the player might be town. If they are scum I ignore the post entirely and think it is foolish to do otherwise. I suppose that if he thought, like you claim to, that the final scum post should be analyzed, that...yeah...maybe? I dunno, do you honestly think any scum are confused about what to do at that point? I don't believe this, so the point doesn't sell me, but if you believe scum can be fooled like that I guess I see the point.

No I pretty much agree with your premise, I don't think that would be a good way to catch competent scum. But my point (or really Dyslexicon's point, I think) was that Phil had him as his top scum read, and he

had

just come in and killed a town member in a way that got him immediately lynched. If he was scum, as Phil thought, I don't think it is unreasonable to think he was foolish scum.

2. To my mind this is called 'having other reads and being open about them' which I take as pro-town. He's not approaching it as if he thinks wgeurts is town, he's approaching ti with an awareness that he might be and is thus paying attention to the wagon. It also makes sense in how he's suspecting wgeurts, who he is citing for being scummy in how Cheetory was lynched, and now he's noting potential suspicion if wgeurts was town. I can see your point, but see no real evidence for it. I think this is a gut read as it can be read either way.

Thinking about this, I guess it is more gut-read than I initially thought it was. It does feel to me as if he

knew

wgeurts were town, but I'm not sure I can prove that.

[Fink]

So there was nothing other than this?

In short - I am saying that you're extroverting fake scumhunting commentary to try to cover for doing nothing, and am calling you scum because of it.

I already went into detail on why I thought it was better commentary than you thought it was. The way you have been so dismissive about it, and so strong on it, I thought there must be something more.

[Fink]

@Droog:

What's the case on Dyslexicon as

you

see it?