Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Thor665]

Thor665 has done much more harm than good in my opinion. Still can't tell whether or not this makes him scum, but he has made this catching up extremely painful and I think helped others to stay in the background without a lot to go on. I'm 50-50 on him being scum at this point, but I think he's certainly helping them, deliberately or accidentally.

[acryon]

Vote: wgeurts

This can go though. As soon as we started talking about a Johnny lynch suddenly a quick hammer. No thanks.

Like, I stated this case.
It's a good case.
No one even so much as blinked at the case.
The wagon was put to L-1 and I *did* make repeated notes that we should hammer it.

Is one bad action make a good case? I don't think so.

Just for fun, let's look at the other people who voted wgeurts and seemingly, why they did (apologies if you feel I misrepresent any of you):
droog - Principle
YYR - No reason
Blair - Didn't like his responses and still wanted his reads, combination intent to lynch and pressure vote
Shadowz - Didn't like the quickhammer or explanation
Phil - Didn't like his action or responses, waited to hammer. After hearing his reads, hammered

Lot's of other people had reasons to vote wgerts; that's not the problem. The problem is that those others didn't seem to have another scum-read with a case built on more than

one

action.

[Dyslexicon]

Hi there thread.

Let's start with some reads, cause you all can't wait for that.

I'm going to split my read post up, because it's pretty long. I apologize for being wordy, and will try to be less so by posting more often.

Scummy:

Phil:

- First post with reads looks nice and proper. He presents the reads as not solid, and they have a lot of gut reasoning and weak reasoning that doesn't commit to anything (except killing wgeurts). To me that's null, but not as pretty as it looks. I still have a issue with the calling wgeurts lynch policy, but then also treating him as being very scummy.
- 134, interacting with wgeurts, he states "If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads (though I admit that is very very WIFOMy)." I can't imagine why you would want to warn a scum read (especially that inexperienced!) that you can derive from his posts who his potential partners are. Seems untricky, not in a town way.
- 183, after I ask him he specifies the "one minor scum thing" and "one minor tow thing" in regards to his read on me, and the conclusion is basically that the town thing could be scum as well and the scum thing could be town as well. The post also contains the alligations that Blair was "attacking the man" with her infamous illogical-comment, which I still don't really get. And if he's going to arrest her for that, Thor himself is balancing that line many times anyway, imo (but that's a different story I guess, point is it seems like a non-point against Blair.) I also don't like this phrasing: "the use of the word "illogical", for example, always has me a bit wary". It just seems like scum phrasing to me. That's a gut thing.
- 275, this is a detail, but something that struck me: The phrasing "Even though it's apparently an unpopular opinion, I'm still thinking YYR is where my next lynch would go if Wgeurts flipped town." is framing his stance as "unpopular" but something he is willing to stand for anyway. I'll come back to why this strikes me. In the same post he states that if wgeurts flipped scum he would want to do more analysis on scum interaction. Scum so far would then be Johnny and wgeurts, not a lot of posts to go through. And wgeurts would be a scum read for Phil anyway, so that statement feels disgenuine to me.
- 297, is just explaining why Thor is solid town. Read the reasoning for yourself. I don't find it convincing, and notice how Phil praises Thor for his methods. This could be scum buddying/town reading a strong willed town player (if Thor is indeed town).
- 328, I get really bad feels from this post. First confessing that he hasn't read all of the Thor/Blair interaction (I seriously hope I find Thor flipping tables because of this), which I find strange because Phil has mentioned several times that Blair is a null read necause some is town and some is not, which sounds to me like someone you would like to read all the posts from. I don't find that he really defends the idea that Blair "attacked the man" convincingly, and talks most about how Blair is still null. He states: "This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting." I wonder how this goes hand in hand with praising Thor for his methods, which I (and I have the impression I'm not the only one) experience as not not making judgements, but rather jumping the gun with whatever semantic/problems he can derive from posts. (Thor, don't hate on me until I come to my read on you.) So it's praiding Thor's methods which to me is very forceful, and then praising Blairs holding off on judgement which to me is something entirely different. And, he now brings back again that it is townish of Blair to attack him rather than some of the more "popular" targets. This goes back to the detail of post 275, when he shows he is aware of how this looks townish (to him anyway), and frames his own action in this light.
- Last post he's posted until now is about moi. It seems inconclusive, but he isn't done. Hi.

I also find Phil to feel the most distant or rehearsed.

VOTE: Phillammon

[Dyslexicon]

Scummy, but a hard read to me because of reasons:

Thor:

My main concerns are as following:
- I find it hard to read Thor, because a lot of his posts annoys me. Especially, and naturally, the ones focusing on me, putting words in my mouth (saying I'm claiming I'm doing hard work, or having read several games of his (it was two btw) and cutting out pieces of my posts to show me how I don't read the game.) The turn on me was sudden, after having Blair as a focus and thinking she was scummy. The reasons are terrible. I experience his reasoning basically that I'm not reading things, or not reading what I say I am. This is something that I can't prove, and so it's just pointless discussion. I let myself get annoyed, probably too annoyed. Then there's the issue that I don't have stances. I think it's weird to pick me out on this when at the time there was little discussion being had, and the discussion that was there was pretty repetitive. I don't find a lot of players had solid stances, and some hardly posted. I was being open that my reads weren't strong, and I will continue to be when they aren't. Lame point.
- My interest in Thor was on more so from gut from Johnny's post. Initially I took what I preceive as writing in an inflexible manner as more town, but I also thought that Thor would do this as scum (and actually have pretty much the same tone as town and scum). This is why I wanted to check, and I found that I think he does overall have the same tone.
- I didn't like his focus on Cheetory (although I wasn't aroudn then). I certainly don't like his focus on me. It's like he just has decided upon things, refuses to listen, and his "your logic isn't mine logic and therefore you must be scum"-stances are very much what I imagine scum!Thor would do.
- He's also mainly arguing anyone who questions or suspects him. I don't find it town at all. He seems very defensive.

Null, but I could see you being paired with both of my scum reads:

Blair:

- The discussion between Thor and Blair seems weird to me. I can't be too specific about it, but it seems Blair knows that the discussion is kind of counter productive and Thor is making a mountain of it, and that she somehow doesn't have responsibility in that. I didn't like that.
- Early on she seemed town to me though.
- Could easily see Blair paired with Phil.
- I didn't really like her no-stance on me. She says both town and scum has feelings, but apparently is unable to derive anything in regards to where my feelings stem from?
- 401, I don't like, and will need to answer. But you are misrepresenting things here.

She's still null to me though, cause I can't shake that gut town thing from the start. =/ O.o

Null, and wouldn't be shocked if scum:

YYR and now Fink:

I deleted this, cause it didn't say much either way. New replacement new read.

Two questions to regular players:
- Is saying "Imma catch up" and then replacing normal here? Does it mean anything in regards to alignment?
- Maybe silly, but what is an Alt? Is it a second account or something? o.o

[Dyslexicon]

More null:

Shadow:

- Don't agree especially with a lot of his reads. I do like his "no nonsense" way of posting, as it comes off as having nothing to hide. Want more involvement.
- Don't understand her issue with me other than having "low content". That I use emoticons and stuff you just have to get used to :3
- Haven't really stood too much out to me. If my gut where to decide, I'd say maybe town.

Null, but maybe leaning townish:

Acryon:

- I wasn't initially having good feels on acryon with his focus on Blair. I don't know why though.
- I like his comment about Phil's lack of town-drive in his read post, since I've felt Phil as distant. Seems like something town would easier pick up on than scum fabricating.
- I do like him going after Thor, just because whether or not Thor is town or scum I don't think scum would go after Thor and open for a big discussion, because that normally ends up in long discussion with an indignant Thor that would have things to say about it.

Townish:

Droog:

- Townish for lack of scumminess.
- Also, I find he posts reactions in real time.
- Focus discussion.

All in all comes across town. Still not set in stone with any read ever, almost. Edit: And by the time I got to post this I'm a bit paranoid again. Dunno. Still townish.
- Oh, I did find it peculiar that he was worried noone read him as scummy. Why do you expect people to?

Bins:

- When she describes her read on Blair, I can pretty much agree with all she is describing, and this is my main reason for reading her town. I understand where she's coming from in general, but especially this read reads genuine town mindset to me.
- She also had the post she said she was working on ready, and not being secretive about it. Liked it.

Could actually be my strongest town read. Hah!

Warning: I post these reads having read up until post 456.
I will now read the few posts afterwards, and respond to stuff I feel I want to or need to respond to.
My Phil read is more thorough since he's the scummiest one to me. Other reads are more colored by what my thoughts have been/is on them as I go.
I will try not go this long without posting, both for my own sake, and for the sake of avoiding to post such long posts.

[Fink]

... and I'm caught up!

Is acryons terrible argument a plot to get us to town read him

Does anyone understand his argument
I can't see scum making it otherwise

My thoughts exactly on this. I think acryon's argument is dumb, but I think it's probably town.

Blair was towny at the start and recently, but the way she kept engaging with Thor seemed suspicious while reading it. But I think that the most logical explaination at this point is that she got understandably frustrated with Thor and wouldn't let it drop.

Shaddowez still seems like a townish lurker to me, but there still isn't that much to go on.

Droog is still my top town read.

Bins hasn't really said enough for me to form much of an opinion, but I certainly think there are better targets today.

Dyslexicon has really stepped it up in this last page, but I never felt terribly negative about her anyway.

So I'm most inclined to vote for Thor or Phillammon. I don't understand why Thor should get a free pass for wasting countless pages with unhelpful non-responses, circular arguments, and just making everything painful to read and generally upping the uselessness level of that reading since the vast majority of the talking is people having stupid arguments with him. He's hurting the town either as crazy town or as crazily brave scum. I think 50-50 he's scum, and if he's town, we'd be better off without him. If that wagon gets going I would totally vote Thor.

But my top scumread is Phillammon, mostly for post #328 as I said before. I'll post a more detailed thing on that in a moment, but for now:

VOTE: Phillammon

[Thor665]

Is one bad action make a good case? I don't think so.

Your case on me is that I pushed a "second" read over a "primary" read.
That's called...one action.
You're voting me.

Sooner or later people will notice how empty all of this is, then you'll be lynched and I'll be happy.
I will vote you over this one issue when that time comes.

[Thor665]

So I'm most inclined to vote for Thor or Phillammon. I don't understand why Thor should get a free pass for wasting countless pages with unhelpful non-responses, circular arguments, and just making everything painful to read and generally upping the uselessness level of that reading since the vast majority of the talking is people having stupid arguments with him. He's hurting the town either as crazy town or as crazily brave scum. I think 50-50 he's scum, and if he's town, we'd be better off without him. If that wagon gets going I would totally vote Thor.

[droog]

Few notes:

I'm everyone's top town read
Scum is hiding somewhere my praisers

It's hip and trendy to say that Thors arguments suck for town
(Wasn't that line mine?)
Especially while arguing with him

Did dys respond to the case on her?
Lots of reads but that's the in thing too

[Dyslexicon]

@Droog, needed a break after catching up and do reads. Will get to the other stuff as soon as I have candy and coffee.

[Fink]

So while I agree with many of the points in the previous post on Phillammon, in typing up my own, I've realized that my primary reasons for voting him are actually pretty tied into my own knowledge that the YYR slot is Town. So if you think I'm scum, disregard this and only pay attention to the other one I guess.

Some big quotes behind these spoilers, really I want them here for a reference so they're all in one place, I'd say don't bother rereading them if you don't feel you need the reference.

So for context, I want to quote

Spoiler: Phillammon's case on YYR

Scummy:

YYR

- I'd like to emphasize hard that this is NOT a solid scumread, it's just... it's about equal parts gut and the phrasing in posts #53 and #99 that just ever so slightly worry me. It's not much, but YYR's the only player who, to my eyes, has not done anything particularly townish while giving me a gut feeling on them of scum.

YYR's interaction with Johnny seemed to be confined to the discussion of Johnny's meta, which I'm not a fan of. It might just be me being dense, but I don't see YYR so much as insinuating that Johnny is scum until #99, which was after the flip, and as I said, the specific wording of that post had me a bit on edge. There are repeated references to scumJohnny in YYRs ISO, but mostly in relation to Cheetory's (scarily accurate) read, rather than any of his own, as far as I can tell (and, as mentioned earlier, with regards to the clarification and meta thereupon).

i feel the same way
if only because yyr's passes at scumhunting were so disappointing

would you lynch after wgeurts?
(if you're reading this i give you permission to hammer btw)

Even though it's apparently an unpopular opinion, I'm still thinking YYR is where my next lynch would go if Wgeurts flipped town. If, on the other hand, Wgeurts flipped scum, I think I'd have to do a more thorough analysis of scum interactions to see if there's any more to go by. I have a bad feeling that Fokem (or Fokem's slot) may be scum, which would explain why there aren't any slots jumping out at me as excessively scummy.

VOTE: YYR. Basically nothing has changed in my reads with wgeurts' flip, so my suspicion is still on him for the same reasons.

but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

Regarding YYR's interaction around Johnny: I have no idea what he was doing, but I want to talk about it for a moment. YYR essentially says nothing about Johnny other than that he doesn't buy Cheetory's playing-along response and then seems to stick with that weird vote on Cheetory, defend Johnny lightly "Debating whether Johnny would make such a weak push on a Blair as a scummate. Seems a little too weak for it to be the strong busing I know Johnny is willing to do. Don't know how much he'd be willing to do in for this setup, though. Meh." (Reading this for the third time, I can totally see the suspicion now.) And that's it.

So my problem, and the reason I'm throwing out a chunk of this and revising is that I think YYR does look suspicious, and if you suspect my slot, my main reason for voting Phillammon doesn't make any sense: it's predicated on me being town. Makes the ammount of quote searching I did on Phillammon seem kind of pointless now...

Anyway, here it is:

My fenceposting on you

(Blair)

has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

It's this right here that bugs me the most about him. My slot, the YYR slot,

WAS

garnering votes due to inactivity, at least that's how I read Droog's initial vote. Now it wasn't

only

due to inactivity, and I have no idea what was going on with those initial few posts but I can see why that might also draw some votes. (Even stronger on the third read of that segment actually) But it's weird to dismiss that YYR's inactivity was a factor in putting votes on him (hoping he would speak up presumably). It seems to imply there is much more of a case on YYR than there actually was.

And I don't understand why defending an inactive account is suspicious when it seems like Blair's argument is that there are much better targets.

It is

also

weird to say that because Blair missed this, she must be scum or not paying attention (implying that people shouldn't listen to her other reads.) I had just read every damn post in the thread up to that point, and I had to go back looking for that stuff. It is a very easy sub-theme to get lost in the noise. And the other arguments that Phillammon had for YYR were 178 posts earlier in the thread.

My point being that there had been

very

little discussion about YYR in recent posts, just "nothing has changed since wgeurts flip" and "Still thinking YYR is where my next lynch would go if Wgeurts flipped town" so it's not surprising that Blair would have forgotten this (I know I did) but Phillammon makes it out to be so obvious and central, while at the same time throwing a bunch of suspicioun on Blair for not going with it.

When I read this the first time, and when I just reread it, it sounds like in post #328 Phillammon is trying to get something started on

either

YYR (who isn'th there to defend himself) or Blair. And both are so slim, but both kind of follow what other people (who have generally garnered townier reads) are already doing. It reads to me like scum noticing that there are two as-yet unformed wagons on townies and trying to ensure that one or the other of them takes off.

But anyway, then there's also all the better reasons posted in the post a couple up from this one. Sorry for the size of this, but after I said I'd post, I wanted to explain my thought process.

[Thor665]

I don't particularly think you're that scummy and also don't particularly like your Phil case either.

Can you tell me why Dyxs most recent posting counts as "stepping it up" for you? I'll agree she put work into those posts, but I disagree that it shows much valid work. Like, there is a giant post on Phil. I can sum that post up in two sentences; "He said stuff I disagree with for reasons I won't specify, nor will I explain how disagreeing makes his actions scummy. Also he is saying nice things about Thor (like I'm doing) which is either scum buddying town or scum buddying scum - but, y'know, he's buddying!" She then proceeds to buddy/attack me and buddy about the rest of the town.

I can't describe the case better than that.
As far as I can tell her issue is that he is being too distant.
Compare/contrast with her case on me, where I'm being too forceful in my conclusions.
I do not buy any of that as scumhunting.
I will agree it is long and has pretty subsections and bullet points so that it looks impressive - but it is contentless.

Discuss why you like it with me?

[Thor665]

Like, I feel you looked at it, said 'wow, this is long, didn't read it and called it good.

I'm not even sure if this is a tongue-in-cheek accusation, I think I might be speaking brilliant truth.

[Fink]

Believe it or not, I actually cut some cruft out!

I'm brevity-challenged.

Responding to the substantive questions in a moment.

[droog]

Thor would you still lynch dyx

[Fink]

On Dyslexicon "stepping it up"

I think my

main

reason is that she's been incredibly passive for most of the game, but these posts look like she went through pretty much post-by-post commenting on things from quite a ways back every time they stuck out to her, not just for one person but for every person. I think she put substantially more effort into it than I did, and I felt like I spent too long on reading this thread.

I think it would be much easier for her if she were scum to continue doing more-or-less what she's been doing, with a bit more talking now to try to throw us onto someone else. This amount of effort (which seems almost excessive) seems to me like a town-member who is feeling guilty for not helping more. That's awfully subjective, and sure, she could take advantage of that as scum (although I think it's not THAT likely from someone so inactive, but I'm new, so what do I know?) so here are a few other things:

She notes that Droog posts reactions to things in real time, Shaddowez "comes off as having nothing to hide", and wants you guys to talk about what we can read into alignment from people being replaced. I don't think these really count as scum-hunting in a particularly helpful sense, but they seem like things she's obsessing about that would not be so front-and-center in her mind if she were scum. And that she's putting these things out there allowing us to sort of examine them, which

is

helpful, and

not

in a way that really pushes any wagons. I think getting everyone to look at things like Shaddowez posting style will be good for town, regardless of Dyslexicon's alignment. I know it's given me some stuff to pay attention to that I wasn't before, and in a town-hunting way.

She picks Bins as a strongest town read, which is sort of an odd pick. I don't agree with it myself, but I don't find Bins scummy either. Anyway, it again seems like a read that had some serious thought and feeling into it, even if I don't totally agree, it seems like something real, not just posting an easy thing to get us off her back.

Provides a bit of both sides on Thor, not really building a case, but it doesn't look to me to be the buddying you see either. It looks like weighing out both sides out loud and letting us see the result, which is what I think happened.

Sure, this is all subjective, and could all be wrong, but it is

certainly

much higher effort than previous contributions. And it comes off pretty townie to me too, but that's besides the point that it's certainly a step up in terms of effort. It doesn't seem at all like someone who is commited to semi-lurking through the rest of the days with minimal posting.

[Fink]

Oh! Just realized you were accusing me of not reading Dyslexicon's posts. I thought you were accusing me of insufficently editing my own (which is true.)

I did read Dyslexicon's posts in their entirety. Why did you think I didn't, Thor?

[Dyslexicon]

I'm currently reading up. I expect to have a post out by tonight, if not, I probably got distracted by America's Next Top Model or something.

Phil

- Town. He's been offering explanations and answering everything directed at him. He's also been giving town info about his thought processes, while scum are often likely to just say what they're thinking with no good reason.

I really don't get this read. Also, I disagree with the last sentence. I think town is generally more likely to just say what they are thinking with no (apparent) good reason, while scum tend to explain cause they have to create a town narrative in their head. (Of course this depends on the player, but I don't agree with what you're saying here).

I'd very much like an updated opinion on the YYR slot/Fink, and also seperate opinions on Thor and Blair.

I mean that saying "useful scumhunting" doesn't look like anything in particular seems like a good setup to be able to not do much. If people later on down the road say "it doesn't look like Dys is doing much in the ways of useful scumhunting", you could say "Well, I am scumhunting in my own way, how do you know what "useful scumhunting" looks like?"

I could. And so could anyone else. It works for anyone. It's not meant to be "useful defense", it's just how I see the game. I very much view this as a people game, and people are different. Which is much excite.

At the same time, I do have a hard time believing that she planned on poring over not one but

two

scum games of yours in any real detail, and she does admit to skimming in 301.

And I never said I was going to make them into pocket books and read them like a curriculum. Sorry to be joking about it, but I do find this point a bit ridiculous. I will try to explain once more:

- I didn't have good feels on Thor. However, his tone is what I've experienced him as town before. Therefore I wanted to see if his tone and presense felt generally the same if he was scum. Cause I haven't seen scum!Thor, so I wouldn't know.
- I found two recent games. I think his tone is generally the same. I got the sense that he had a bit of a narrow focus, and maybe slightly subdued to this game. But tone generally the same. I was happy with the findings, I'm not going to use all my energy into this game, but I got something out of it.

Of course I admit to skimming those games. Of course I did not read them religiously, and that was never the intent. I don't think I said anything that implied this at all.

tl;dr

: You were probably right to say she was disingenuous in asking for two scum games to read over (the very fact that she publicly asked for them when they aren't hard to find demonstrates she was more interested in making sure we all knew she was doing it than actually doing so), but you could have made this point without claiming she wasn't reading this game, either (which I think was just another way of saying "You aren't asking a lot of meaningful questions or drawing significant conclusions," which, again, is a point that can be made without the above claim).

I wasn't. I wanted to make sure of two things:

- I wanted to see not only one, but two games, as insurance.
- If Thor gave me one or two games (I actually thought I asked for one, but I see I asked for a couple), I would make sure to find another too, because I wouldn't trust him to give me representable games if he is indeed scum.

I asked this in thread because I remember people did that last game I played. I thought it was pretty normal. Thor was the one injecting that with me claiming to do hard work and stuff. I never said that, and I never meant that. What work I do or don't is what work I do or don't. Normally I take mafia (and most games) pretty seriously, believe it or not. It's still a game though, and I like to have fun.

Is there anything you or anyone don't understand about this?

If you believe me or not (or claim to do), I can't control. I naturally can't prove what I did or did not read.

Summary: You raised a fair point, but included an unnecessary and unverifiable jab that inevitably led to a lot of pointless arguing.

I don't think the post is very fair. Thor might be the type of person that would not read a game, posts here and there, only looking at one person. Or he might be, I don't really know Thor, but he seems to like having things in order. That's cool. But I don't, not necessarily. I like to get the general vibe of things.

Proceeding to say I don't read this game is just ugh. Especially when other players are actually saying they haven't read parts and just gets light snark.

I have stated Phil as a town read.

As far as showing Dyxs' lack of reading, how about this;

You are right that I didn't read your very last posts.

Or this?

That last version is really different than anything I ever got in my head (Thor), and I write drama for a living and it's pretty cool as such. And I will need to read again. BAIIII

Which I'll agree she's claimign to have read - but is now saying she needs to read it twice before being able to offer comments on it...?
Or this?

(I skimmed most of course, cause I'm not going to use that much time right now (I can't anyway)

Which, fascinatingly, shows I was correct in my belief of her reading.

I'm going to do this in a list.

#1: You are quoting just a tiny bit of my post out of context. The full post explains how I hadn't read your last posts YET when posting one of mine. That is because I had just spent time catching up and mafiascum ate my post and it was gone. So I wrote it again WITHOUT looking at the post appearing in the meantime, because I didn't want to lose my train of thought or get more theories in my head confuzzling the thoughts I had there and then. I did, of course, read the post afterwards.

#2: I was pretty drunk when I posted that and the posts around then. I thought mafia was a good idea, but it probably wasn't and I definitely could not have a focused catch up then. Again, of course, I have read the posts afterwards. Maybe I should've explained my drunkness before, but I didn't really think it was such a big deal.

#3: This is a quote about the other games I looked into. Would it help if I called it looked into? Would you understand it then? It's not relevant to the BS claim that you make that I don't read this game anyway.

So on and so forth.
If you find the arguing pointless than don't discuss it.
What I'm asking you is - do you think she said that as town or as scum? You seem to be agreeing she said it for the look of the matter. Now what is your read on her alignment once you notice that? Because you said a lot without concluding much.

So, is your issue that it can happen that I haven't read things in order, or that I may even dare to post something without being 100% caught up? Ok, maybe you like it when everything is linnear, and think it's mind buggling to have D3 discussion on D2. I don't. How does this makes me scummy? This is your only point on me. Noone else seems to have such a big issue with it, but you really TRY to make it an issue. You're taking things way too literal if you really believe I'm not reading the game.

---

Between acryon and Thor: I don't think acryon's point is very good. However, I don't think he comes across as scummy for it. More town, actually. Thor saying that he thought wgeurt was scummy and that policy lynch is also a scumness lynch is a question of belief to me. I don't agree that it's scummy of Thor to not vote Blair under the circumstances.

1. No one asked for my thoughts on wgeurts.

This bothers me. You've told me several times that "I'm not shy" as a way of implying that you will bring up what's on your mind. Now to say "noone asked me" is another example that you're just picking words to serve whatever your case is at the moment. I'm starting to think this is a null tell for you though.

No, I didn't say under certain conditions. I said under one condition, and it certainly didn't meet the criteria of that one. The only reason to ever not choose your #1 is if there is no time to complete a wagon. Otherwise, why would you ever go with the choice with a lower chance. That is completely illogical.

I don't agree with that. I too would've voted wgeurts that day, just because it would be totes sad if he was scum getting away with that. And because I didn't trust him, regardless of his alignment. If you asked my gut at the time it would've said town for him though.

[Fink]

On why I like Dyslexicon's case on Phillammon

As I see it, these are the central points: (with some commentary on them from me so it's not useless to read this)

• Phillammon telling wgeurts in post #134 ""If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads" I didn't notice this when I read through that exchange myself, but it does seem like the kind of thing where town should be worrying that wgeurts is idiot-scum, and thus should NOT be warning him of a potential trap. On the other hand, scum knew he was town and wouldn't really be thinking about it.
  
• Phillammon in post #183 getting on Blair with Thor for attacking him and using the word illogical. I think Dyslexicon's point was that this was sort of piling on, but something I notice thinking about it is that if Thor is town, this is kind of refueling the fire of the same dumb argument. It doesn't actually contribute to any real case on Blair (using the word illogical, really???) but it
  does
  contribute to keeping the same useless anti-town argument going with all the same repetitive requotes going nowhere.
  
• In post #275, setting up a future vote on YYR in the event that wgeurts flips town, but would do more analysis if wgeurts flips scum. But wgeurts is Phillammon's strongest scum-read (post #162), he doesn't want to do any more analysis now, and then he immeditaely moves onto YYR as was the plan. But why wouldn't his main plan be that wgeurts would flip scum as he had implied elsewhere. To me the implication is that he knew the answer.
  
• Stuff about post #328 that I can't even remember what I've said or not typing this. But that post is what put him on my scum-dar to begin with, it just bothered me in a bunch of ways.

[Dyslexicon]

Fink is a town read. Yes, because we agree on reads, and I find his reasons good. Don't see why he'd defend me like that if it wasn't real/town, and his reasoning reads town mindframe. The "this makes sense because I know I'm town" thing is kind of funny, but not scummy.

I'd be very interested in updated reads on this slot.

---

@Thor, I'm not going to respond to you anymore unless you or other people find it strictly necessary. It goes nowhere. You clearly have no interest in listening to anything I say. You seem more interested in discrediting me at any chance. Btw, I think the discrediting of players (not only me) is getting really old, and I hope for less of that and more of the cute snark.

Would lynch Phil (1st) or Thor (2nd).

[Blair]

Fink:

Now my top townread.

Dyslexicon:

What exactly did you want clarification on in my #401? I'm more than happy to answer, but I'm unclear on what the question is.

droog:

At this point I had to go back and look up what my questions for you were, but I definitely recalled that you still hadn't answered them. It's drug on long enough now that even I'm caring less and less about your answers, but the lack thereof? That I care about quite a bit. Pretty please?

acryon:

I felt the same way about Thor, but I'm starting to wonder if that's because I misunderstood his #437 - his "No" to my question I initially read as him saying I was his higher scumread (especially given the further justification he offered on how we'd forever be trying to suss out wgeurts), but rereading it he could just as easily have meant that wgeurts and I were equal scumreads.

Thor:

For clarity: Were wgeurts and I completely equal scumreads to you on Day 2?

Phillammon:

I still think you're probably scum, but you've pretty impressively pivoted out of that discussion. Well done.

I'm liking Dyslexicon's recent bout of posting, and while I could see this as scum starting to get their sure footing again after an attack, I'd peg it as more likely Town finally buckling down.

People who don't like the Phillammon wagon should explain why - voting for Phillammon is fabulous, everyone who's anyone is doing it.

[droog]

which questions

[shaddowez]

Phil

- Town. He's been offering explanations and answering everything directed at him. He's also been giving town info about his thought processes, while scum are often likely to just say what they're thinking with no good reason.

I really don't get this read. Also, I disagree with the last sentence. I think town is generally more likely to just say what they are thinking with no (apparent) good reason, while scum tend to explain cause they have to create a town narrative in their head. (Of course this depends on the player, but I don't agree with what you're saying here).

I'd very much like an updated opinion on the YYR slot/Fink, and also seperate opinions on Thor and Blair.

I'll admit, when I do reads lists I don't necessarily go by every single post. I look at every post, but if I'm getting a decent read on someone, I generally only start paying attention to things that really stick out to me. I may have skimmed over some of Phil's scummier sounding posts by doing that, and will revisit this, especially since I don't like his most recent post, 455.

As for my last sentence, I can of course only speak for my own playstyle definitely, and what I've experienced. I always like having reasons for what I'm saying, even if that reason is gut. If I'm trying to convince people that my scumread is actually scum, it doesn't help to say "just because". Scum do, as you said, try to get into a town mindset, but it seems that you have to extract more info than they give willingly.

I'll provide the reads you asked for in my aforementioned reads list.

I mean that saying "useful scumhunting" doesn't look like anything in particular seems like a good setup to be able to not do much. If people later on down the road say "it doesn't look like Dys is doing much in the ways of useful scumhunting", you could say "Well, I am scumhunting in my own way, how do you know what "useful scumhunting" looks like?"

I could. And so could anyone else. It works for anyone. It's not meant to be "useful defense", it's just how I see the game. I very much view this as a people game, and people are different. Which is much excite.

You are correct. However, you are the one that specifically said that (paraphrasing) "useful scumhunting doesn't have a particular look". That's why I called you out on it, and said it looked like you could be setting up a defense for later.

[Thor665]

I think my

main

reason is that she's been incredibly passive for most of the game, but these posts look like she went through pretty much post-by-post commenting on things from quite a ways back every time they stuck out to her, not just for one person but for every person. I think she put substantially more effort into it than I did, and I felt like I spent too long on reading this thread.

I think it would be much easier for her if she were scum to continue doing more-or-less what she's been doing, with a bit more talking now to try to throw us onto someone else. This amount of effort (which seems almost excessive) seems to me like a town-member who is feeling guilty for not helping more. That's awfully subjective, and sure, she could take advantage of that as scum (although I think it's not THAT likely from someone so inactive, but I'm new, so what do I know?) so here are a few other things:

My two thoughts to this are as follows.

1. She is getting heat for being passive and not doing work (from me) the best way (as scum) to dismantle the push is to do work.
I will agree that applies the same for town - however...
2. She is acting like I'm crazy sauce for questioning her level of work.

If she was town and felt guilty, why would she also claim I am a disparaging scum-wad when i call into question her effort? If she agreed with me and said 'I'll work hardz now!' then, no issue. If she disagreed with me and did the same...well...I'd have an issue but at least I'd agree with you more.

She didn't do that.

Discuss?

I did read Dyslexicon's posts in their entirety. Why did you think I didn't, Thor?

I described specifically why I thought you didn't. What part of it didn't make sense and I'll clarify.

Even your breakdown of her post includes lots of notes of her weighing or considering things. She isn't taking any real stances in that post - that's my point. It's empty work.

Thor:

For clarity: Were wgeurts and I completely equal scumreads to you on Day 2?

No and I never said anything remotely indicating this to be the case so I am unsure why clarity needs to be offered on the question.

People who don't like the Phillammon wagon should explain why - voting for Phillammon is fabulous, everyone who's anyone is doing it.

The case on Phillamon is an unexplained joke that people are supporting because they don't understand how weak the case is, are scum, or a combination thereof.
Literally no one has made a case on him besides "gut" and while I will admit that is a case I do not think it remotely sensible to act like people who don't support it need to justify their stance. i think people who do support it need to justify the stance.

Thor would you still lynch dyx

I am voting Dyx, so I'll go with 'yes'.

#1: You are quoting just a tiny bit of my post out of context. The full post explains how I hadn't read your last posts YET when posting one of mine. That is because I had just spent time catching up and mafiascum ate my post and it was gone. So I wrote it again WITHOUT looking at the post appearing in the meantime, because I didn't want to lose my train of thought or get more theories in my head confuzzling the thoughts I had there and then. I did, of course, read the post afterwards.

#2: I was pretty drunk when I posted that and the posts around then. I thought mafia was a good idea, but it probably wasn't and I definitely could not have a focused catch up then. Again, of course, I have read the posts afterwards. Maybe I should've explained my drunkness before, but I didn't really think it was such a big deal.

#3: This is a quote about the other games I looked into. Would it help if I called it looked into? Would you understand it then? It's not relevant to the BS claim that you make that I don't read this game anyway.

1. Yes, I agree the post was an admission of not reading. The 'Yet' has no bearing to my point. I will agree everything you have not read you may at some point read in the future - that does not change that you did not read stuff and have not read stuff.
2. Oh, okay, so you were drunk, sorry, can't hold you accountable for that post then.
3. I understand that you claimed to want to meta me, basically didn't meta me, and have come back with no comment on my meta besides 'Thor plays like this as town and scum, I'mma keep calling him scum' I will admit my belief is that you haven't read anything, yes.

So, is your issue that it can happen that I haven't read things in order, or that I may even dare to post something without being 100% caught up? Ok, maybe you like it when everything is linnear, and think it's mind buggling to have D3 discussion on D2. I don't. How does this makes me scummy? This is your only point on me. Noone else seems to have such a big issue with it, but you really TRY to make it an issue. You're taking things way too literal if you really believe I'm not reading the game.

I do not care what order you read things.
Yes, I think reading things enables you to talk about them sensibly.
I also think you're trying to re-phrase what I'm calling you scummy for here - please remember that my issue is not your lack of reading (though I find that poor play for town) and I NEVER cited you for reading things out of order (you're making up a straw man to defeat there) what I *did* cite you on was trying to fake effort scumhunt by claiming meta-dive efforts when you weren't even keeping up with the current game, which indicates it was a faked attempt to scumhunt.

You are trying to isolate one aspect of my case, act like it's all of it, and then claim you have disproved it because you've caught up to some degree now as proven by a case post that basically said nothing.
My opinion on the matter remains that you are scum going for fake town scumhunt points.

1. No one asked for my thoughts on wgeurts.

This bothers me. You've told me several times that "I'm not shy" as a way of implying that you will bring up what's on your mind. Now to say "noone asked me" is another example that you're just picking words to serve whatever your case is at the moment. I'm starting to think this is a null tell for you though.

Oh, yeah...y'know, the whole Blair conversation *started* there because Thor offered his opinion unasked for (also on some other players as well.
I have repeatedly responded that I am not shy when people ask me my read on something.
I have never claimed that I would offer a case unasked for - I have indicated that I would offer reads unasked for.
I also offer cases unasked for - but that doesn't change that no one asked for a case on wgeurts and also that I had provided my read on wgeurts.
So what's your issue here exactly?

@Thor, I'm not going to respond to you anymore unless you or other people find it strictly necessary. It goes nowhere. You clearly have no interest in listening to anything I say. You seem more interested in discrediting me at any chance. Btw, I think the discrediting of players (not only me) is getting really old, and I hope for less of that and more of the cute snark.

I am sorry that me calling you scum makes you feel discredited.

[Thor665]

@Dyx - how many of my games did you read/skim/look over? Just the two?