Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[acryon]

I dont see how anyone sees amy as scum. Maybe a reread for some players is in order

Who do you think is scum?

[ChannelDelibird]

where does Amy indicate she knows alignments? I looked at that post...it isnt anything more than any one else did. Why that whole day was full of people saying such and such looks town.

I'm not really sure how to put it more clearly than I did in the post you quoted. The post that Amy townread did not stick out to me at all when I first read it and I didn't see why anybody would feel happy to draw any kind of alignment-related conclusions from it.

Think about it like this: When I'm scum, I always feel pressure to figure out who I'm going to target for a mislynch. It's hard for me to find town-looking angles of attack on players I know to be town because I always know that their posts are coming from a town mindset. It leaves me likely to townread most of the town apart from one or two mislynch targets and my own buddies. It's that perspective that I see as the most likely explanation for Amy suddenly townreading Snuggly for that post, because Amy doesn't explain why she thinks the post is more likely to come from town so I have no insight into her thought process other than the strange conclusion.

ummm, so snuggly/titus has not flipped, by saying that Amy knows alignments and here is proof, you are saying that Snuggly must be town. How do YOU know that Snuggly is town? IF Snuggly flips scum, then this point in your Amy case doesnt make any sense whats so ever. Care to explain?

This isn't me knowing that Titus is town, this is me now supposing that Titus is probably town because the explanation that makes most sense to me of Amy's post is that she's scum who knows Titus's alignment. Yes, it involves having a read on Titus as a result, but that very much comes from recognising what looks to me like a scum mindset from Amy.

Also lets say she was all high and mighty??...is that scummy? She was one of the first 2 people on the Bel wagon day 2...She had plenty of time to come off of it.

Being high and mighty about a scumlynch isn't scummy in a vacuum; my argument is that, given how little Amy seemed to actually push a Bel wagon, it felt unearned from her, like someone who would know that they should expect to gain some towncred when Bel eventually dies because they already know that Bel is scum.

[scrambles]

@acryon
ckd, ape, titus

[scrambles]

And while I didnt think chaos was scum, delibird is reversing that.

[ChannelDelibird]

I will have another look at Amy's latest responses shortly, although my first impression is that it's a little "he said, she said" for it being useful for me to quote-wall all of it. A lot of her defences boil down to "that's just how I felt at the time so you're wrong" so mostly people are just going to have to judge which of us presents a more plausible explanation.

But I do want to get into some other reads a little bit. I'm pretty sure I have a massive blind-spot for players who get emotional, and I'm trying to parse out exactly what I'm feeling about the tone of Amy's latest posts - she seems somewhat emotionally inconsistent to me within short spaces of time but I can't really get a handle on whether or not that's because she's deliberately trying to use an emotional tone as a weapon or if it's a genuine reaction that I'm struggling to understand properly when it's put in text form.

In the meantime, I don't think acryon is scum with Amy. He's visibly taken my point from the end of Yesterday about being terminally mild to heart, but that might make sense for him as scum if I'm wrong about Amy. I wouldn't buy his approach Today if it were both of them, though.

[acryon]

@acryon
ckd, ape, titus

What do you think of Amy's response to all of this?

[scrambles]

I have massive arguments with players all the time. On my other site, im kinda known for it, and a lot of people call it detrimental.
however, normally in an argument like this I would say amy is town. Scum just dont argue this much or with such fervor.

[acryon]

I have massive arguments with players all the time. On my other site, im kinda known for it, and a lot of people call it detrimental.
however, normally in an argument like this I would say amy is town. Scum just dont argue this much or with such fervor.

But doesn't it seem like an irrational and unrealistic response to someone who has played before being called scum?

[acryon]

Actually, I didn't realize that this was her first game on this site. Hmmmm, scratch that I guess for now. But I'm not going to write it off completely.

[scrambles]

Even if it's her first game on the site, she's likely played before. However, the meta here is incredibly different to my site's so I could see if her behavior here seemed off. In my experience though, she doesn't come off as scum. The only way I could see her attempting a wifom play here is if she was either familiar with this site's meta, or her site's meta was similar to this one's. Generally, I find erratic behavior to be very townish. I'm always more concerned with the more cautious players and then ones that have strong arguments backed up with lots of posts.

[farside22]

v/la till monday

I know I own this game a case. Ended up with some interviews and a family outing this weekend.

[Baezu]

Vote Count 3.02

scrambles: (1) Titus
ChannelDelibird: (1) Amy Farrah Fowler
Amy Farrah Fowler: (3) ChannelDelibird, Farside22, Riddleton

Not Voting: acryon, scrambles, Curiouskarmadog , RoyalApe, TobyLoby

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-10-13 16:30:00)

Mod Notes:
Looking for replacement for RoyalApe. He did not pick up his prod

[Titus]

Scarmbles, random question. Can you link me to all finished games you have and include the proximate timeframe.

I actually have no finished games on mafiascum.
I just finished one on a different site and im currently modding a game.

How long ago was that?

[Titus]

I have massive arguments with players all the time. On my other site, im kinda known for it, and a lot of people call it detrimental.
however, normally in an argument like this I would say amy is town. Scum just dont argue this much or with such fervor.

Remind me to go to your home site and show them how to play scum.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

where does Amy indicate she knows alignments? I looked at that post...it isnt anything more than any one else did. Why that whole day was full of people saying such and such looks town.

I'm not really sure how to put it more clearly than I did in the post you quoted. The post that Amy townread did not stick out to me at all when I first read it and I didn't see why anybody would feel happy to draw any kind of alignment-related conclusions from it.

Think about it like this: When I'm scum, I always feel pressure to figure out who I'm going to target for a mislynch. It's hard for me to find town-looking angles of attack on players I know to be town because I always know that their posts are coming from a town mindset. It leaves me likely to townread most of the town apart from one or two mislynch targets and my own buddies. It's that perspective that I see as the most likely explanation for Amy suddenly townreading Snuggly for that post, because Amy doesn't explain why she thinks the post is more likely to come from town so I have no insight into her thought process other than the strange conclusion.

I take it that you disagree with wording/behavioural tells then? I saw (and still see) that (being a bit more open/wild) as town. If you want a comparison, then if snuggly's response to that was something involving an apology or something along those lines then I'd have scumread him.

Also lets say she was all high and mighty??...is that scummy? She was one of the first 2 people on the Bel wagon day 2...She had plenty of time to come off of it.

Being high and mighty about a scumlynch isn't scummy in a vacuum; my argument is that, given how little Amy seemed to actually push a Bel wagon, it felt unearned from her, like someone who would know that they should expect to gain some towncred when Bel eventually dies because they already know that Bel is scum.

Okay, imagine you were in my situation back then. What other reasons would you have provided for a Beli lynch? Or would you go the EpicMafia way and said 'lynch Beli' until people went with it? If you can propose an alternative solution to my situation then I'll take this bit seriously.

[scrambles]

I have massive arguments with players all the time. On my other site, im kinda known for it, and a lot of people call it detrimental.
however, normally in an argument like this I would say amy is town. Scum just dont argue this much or with such fervor.

Remind me to go to your home site and show them how to play scum.

I would love do you to join us sometime.
also my game ended on Tuesday.

[scrambles]

Titus would you mind explaining to me what your thoughts on amy are?

[ChannelDelibird]

I take it that you disagree with wording/behavioural tells then? I saw (and still see) that (being a bit more open/wild) as town. If you want a comparison, then if snuggly's response to that was something involving an apology or something along those lines then I'd have scumread him.

Just because I don't see anything clear in your one post doesn't mean I "disagree with wording/behavioural tells". Behaviour is, of course, fundamentally what we're all doing here in some way. It's the fact that you didn't go into it at all beyond "I don't think scum would do this"; you didn't actually say what the tell was, just that it was a tell. So I'm still left wondering how you could possibly have reached a conclusion from the post in question.

Okay, imagine you were in my situation back then. What other reasons would you have provided for a Beli lynch? Or would you go the EpicMafia way and said 'lynch Beli' until people went with it? If you can propose an alternative solution to my situation then I'll take this bit seriously.

There's an in-between. You don't have to provide 'other reasons' just because it's been a while, but you can clearly and concisely restate the case, point out things about alternative cases that you don't like as much and compare to the Beli case to show why it's better, and generally badger a bit. All you had in that post, though, was a convoluted theory about three players being tied together despite none of them having yet flipped scum to give credence to the connections. It's at exactly this point, by the way, that you should have made the explanation that you've since made about you being busy towards the end of Day 1. Town should be very conscious of missing the deadline during a mislynch.

Having doubts at the moment, as I usually do in this situation, but my vote stays. Still think Belisarius points to Amy as a likely buddy and too many inconsistencies here that I can't quite reconcile from the perspective of Amy being town.

[ChannelDelibird]

I sort of see where Titus is coming from with the scrambles vote but it doesn't really excite me in any way and I don't completely buy into the original premise (that Belisarius was trying to chainsaw-defend scrambles with his initial farside vote; the odd crusading nature of that vote and the length for which he stuck to it make it much more likely that it was just Beli's chosen survival tactic for himself, IMO).

But it does bother me that there is not really a lot of discussion about possible alternatives to Amy so Titus is probably town for being the only person actually working on something proactively.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I take it that you disagree with wording/behavioural tells then? I saw (and still see) that (being a bit more open/wild) as town. If you want a comparison, then if snuggly's response to that was something involving an apology or something along those lines then I'd have scumread him.

Just because I don't see anything clear in your one post doesn't mean I "disagree with wording/behavioural tells". Behaviour is, of course, fundamentally what we're all doing here in some way. It's the fact that you didn't go into it at all beyond "I don't think scum would do this"; you didn't actually say what the tell was, just that it was a tell. So I'm still left wondering how you could possibly have reached a conclusion from the post in question.

I did provide reasons, though admittedly kind of naff. But I did not, in any way, make it completely reasonless. 'In this way' was explanatory enough in that post, and other people stated more in depth reasons, ergo making me going in-depth unnecessary. I don't need to write all my mental processes down, and I never have reads entirely based on gut.

Okay, imagine you were in my situation back then. What other reasons would you have provided for a Beli lynch? Or would you go the EpicMafia way and said 'lynch Beli' until people went with it? If you can propose an alternative solution to my situation then I'll take this bit seriously.

There's an in-between. You don't have to provide 'other reasons' just because it's been a while, but you can clearly and concisely restate the case, point out things about alternative cases that you don't like as much and compare to the Beli case to show why it's better, and generally badger a bit. All you had in that post, though, was a convoluted theory about three players being tied together despite none of them having yet flipped scum to give credence to the connections. It's at exactly this point, by the way, that you should have made the explanation that you've since made about you being busy towards the end of Day 1. Town should be very conscious of missing the deadline during a mislynch.

Having doubts at the moment, as I usually do in this situation, but my vote stays. Still think Belisarius points to Amy as a likely buddy and too many inconsistencies here that I can't quite reconcile from the perspective of Amy being town.

Restating the case counts as repetition from my point of view. I could compile all my issues with Beli into one post, but... why? People got the case, and the wagon was simply taking some time to get going. At least that's how I see it.
And there was nothing I disliked about the chaos case. I had a slight preference towards the Beli case, just because I felt he was being more detrimental to the town. But I'd have been pretty much equally happy with either lynch. I'm not going to criticize a wagon that I'm not on and then try and lynch that person the next day.
I liked my convoluted theory. You don't? Okay.
And if I apologised for my absence towards the end of day one then you'd have argued that I was 'overexplaining things' and 'trying my hardest to seem 'overly townish''.

I find your idea of Belisarius' flip pointing to me intriguing but very misguided. For quite a long time Beli was aware of the fact that he definitely wouldn't make it through the next few days. And like most scum at that point, he opted to take someone down with him. People were mostly townreading me at the time, so he went for me. But as you can probably tell, Beli is experienced and knows he can do this. He's not a noob who would deliberately not vote for a scumpartner under any circumstances. Bluntly put: you're using an overly basic noobscum-tell that has no merit here.

[ChannelDelibird]

I did provide reasons, though admittedly kind of naff. But I did not, in any way, make it completely reasonless. 'In this way' was explanatory enough in that post, and other people stated more in depth reasons, ergo making me going in-depth unnecessary. I don't need to write all my mental processes down, and I never have reads entirely based on gut.

"I don't think scum would do this" is a reason, but not one that actually has any depth. Someone who didn't get anything out of the original post is not going to understand it any better after reading that reason. You don't have to write down all your mental processes; you do need to back up your statements.

And if I apologised for my absence towards the end of day one then you'd have argued that I was 'overexplaining things' and 'trying my hardest to seem 'overly townish''.

No, that's bollocks and you have no reason to believe such.

I find your idea of Belisarius' flip pointing to me intriguing but very misguided. For quite a long time Beli was aware of the fact that he definitely wouldn't make it through the next few days. And like most scum at that point, he opted to take someone down with him.

You're not actually paying attention to the parts of the case that I feel best connect you and Belisarius - such as this, which deals with an exchange long before Belisarius's fate was sealed, and this which I think looks like an awkward buddy interaction as explained here.

I don't doubt that he could tell that his lynch was coming, but you're acting as if you're the only person with whom he interacted. He also pushed hard on CKD and farside right 'til the end and you could also argue that his interaction with my case also count as him attempting to raise questions over my alignment (indeed, I'd be interested to see what you think of a post like this given that you apparently believe that we are buddies. Is Beli "too experienced" to call a buddy his "top townread"?).

The fact that Belisarius is capable of one thing does not guarantee that he did one thing, and I also think that you are vastly overestimating the extent to which scum plan out webs of WIFOM to trigger in the event of their deaths.

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: Amy

Nonetheless, going to rethink. I want people to propose alternatives; even if I'm right, Belisarius had two buddies.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: Amy

Nonetheless, going to rethink. I want people to propose alternatives; even if I'm right, Belisarius had two buddies.

Conftown. Amy is town too most likely.

[Titus]

Hos curious
I definitely did not say anything about chaos being scum. You are putting words in my mouth and trying to shame me into voting him.
in my experience, scum like to ramp townies up til the edge and then bus other townies to make for easy combos.

Instead of playing into that game, im voting for my scum read.
lastly, it is disbanding. I can see people starting to focus on other reasonably suspicious people pike skelda. I dont think reasonably suspicious people are ever good lunches. Both chaos and skelda do the reasonably suspicious profile. Imo those are bad lynches.

Lol this is one of my favorite games in a while

These two posts strongly imply you have played more than one game that just ended Tuesday. I do not like being lied to.

[Baezu]

Green Crayons replaces RoyalApe. Thank you