Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over


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Post Post #850 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:30 am

Post by droog »

In post 838, Fink wrote:
In post 837, Phillammon wrote:(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)


Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil


i have a short attention span
please explain the lie
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Post Post #851 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:35 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 847, Fink wrote:Thor: It's not a theory argument. It's a Phil doesn't have his facts straight arguement. Phil says he could have been lynched, I've shown that there were not enough votes for it, that a majority of the town had clearly said they wouldn't lynch him, Phil has pretended that this was not the case.

Yes, but whether or not he believed that is not scummy - you should be discussing how he did or did not use this thought in a scummy way as that is all that matters.
If he disagrees present your evidence and stick to the actual scumtell such as it is.
I, personally, tend to think he acted slightly townish at a point the wagon was not particularly hard codified by other players. If your goal is to get him lynched your job is to convince me what his scum motive was. Your job is not to convince Phil what he thought at the time because that's a losing debate - e.g. look at Acro trying to explain to me that I was scum because I had implied someone was scummier to me by talking about them more. It was going to be an argument that went nowhere with anyone else because it was unprovable that I did or didn't. What he should have focused on was explaining to players who were not me, how what I did had actual scum benefit. He didn't - and when asked about the case actively chose not to do so either, and that made the case bad regardless of his alignment.

We don't need this current debate and it already looks like it's going to get long.
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Post Post #852 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:35 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 850, droog wrote:
In post 838, Fink wrote:
In post 837, Phillammon wrote:(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)


Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil


i have a short attention span
please explain the lie

:neutral:
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Post Post #853 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:35 am

Post by Thor665 »

@Droog - here are the lies;

"We don't need this current debate and it already looks like it's going to get long."

Oh, wait, that's a painful truth. Moving on!
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Post Post #854 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:37 am

Post by DCLXVI »

In post 845, Thor665 wrote:I'd like to see DCL address the wagon and the results.

That's been my plan.
Sarcasm is
not
a scumtell.
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Post Post #855 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:05 am

Post by droog »

will say that im not caring for fink in general
any honeymoon the yyr slot got on fink subbing in is over

and im not inclined any more toward the slot
may write a case later
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Post Post #856 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:12 am

Post by Thor665 »

Why is my townread there so strong and yet you have a null read?
I think if you iso him and myself and find the back and forth we had mid-day last Day Phase you should be hard pressed to keep up that issue.
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Post Post #857 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:13 am

Post by Fink »

@ Droog

i'm curious why you're unwilling to even read my posts then. The one thing you didn't get is probably the thing I repeated the most and that at this point Phil has even agreed with: that there were not actually enough votes to lynch Phil. I think Thor's face response sums up my feelings on your question nicely. Read the damn thread.

And then write your case. But could you also address your thoughts on Phil at some point today please?
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Post Post #858 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:23 am

Post by droog »

In post 857, Fink wrote:you're unwilling to even read my posts then


no
just busy

thoughts on phil? need to read more first. strictly null.
but

not having read everything youve produced yet
does not mean i cant have a valid read on you

hell given how much ive leaned into this slot all game
are you trying to suggest i havent looked into it *enough*?
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Post Post #859 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:43 am

Post by Phillammon »

droog
's first mention of acryon is a challenge to one of his early points, followed by questioning one of Acryon's weirder posts (#161 challenging #145). This is followed by #256 challenging #176, and... there's a theme developing here. #463 is a bit WIFOMy- or rather, seems to be accusing Acryon of being either WIFOMing scum or a townie who's awful at arguing, and it sort of continues in the same vein. Essentially, droog seems to have thought there was something fishy about most of what Acryon said, and that transitioned into a scumread. That sounds reasonable to me, and droog was listed (though this may be inaccurate) as the first vote of the wagon, so I'm not seeing droog as scum at all off the back of this wagon. This compounds with my existing town read.

Thor665
made things hard by sometimes referring to Acryon as Acro, but hey, why would you shorten a name to a subset of the characters in the name... In any case, #408 is the start of a flurry of mentions of Acryon- up until that point, I can't spot any explicit reads on the slot, but I may be missing something. Most of the early mentions of said flurry are to do with Acryon's push on Thor, which was called out as bad by droog too. It's pretty staggeringly obvious from #451 and #453 that something approximating a scumread has been formed, and it's in #711 that it turns into a vote- the delay because he still wanted a Blair lynch, which is fair enough. So no inconsistencies here.

shaddowez
first mentions Acryon in #364 as a townread. These reads are then updated in #586, showing precisely why the read has decayed from town to leaning scum, which seems to follow as a progression. There's little interaction there, but the thought processes are clear to see. I could sort of believe, given Acryon's not mentioned much in between the two posts, that that was Shaddowez jumping onto a mislynch, but I'm honestly not buying it. Largely because at the time there were NO votes on acryon. He then shifts onto the wagon itself at #713, to put it at L-1. Which is a bit bad given it opened the wagon up for a quickhammer before acryon got back, but honestly if scum were dumb enough to do that then they'd given themselves away, which makes for an easy lynch, so that action itself is null. All in all, consistent, coherent thought processes are evident here.

DCLVXI
's first mention of Acryon is that they're a scumread, immediately followed by a vote. This is backed up by their thought processes, which, while I don't agree with them, seem valid. They then unvote once to avoid a quicklynch, say their piece, then go back on. I see no issues with this whatsoever.

Fink
is still scum, and I have already gone into some detail on the matter.

If I'm still alive when I get back, I'm more than happy to go into detail/answer any questions that you, collectively, may have.
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Post Post #860 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:19 am

Post by Fink »

@ Droog: I'm just saying you shouldn't ask questions that have been answered multiple times, in the few posts immediately after the post you're asking about. You can have whatever opinion of me you want, but as much as I've got on Thor's case about saying this: it's really really annoying when people comment without reading the game.

I'm not sure how you can have nothing to say about Phil beyond "strictly null." What do you think of my, Blair, and Dyslexicon's cases on him. I've made a bunch of different points. What do you think of Phil's response to the pressure yesterday? I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but I think you should be able to have an opinion. Please get around to rereading the Phil related stuff and make some kind of comment on it. I feel like I'm yelling into the void here.

@ Phil: You haven't actually addressed my position on the wagon. Both Dys and I stated intent to hammer, it got talk about a lot. It got talked about more than I thought it probably should have, and then I hammered. Regardless of what you think about me, I think you should address this. You said "it opened the wagon up for a quickhammer before acryon got back, but honestly if scum were dumb enough to do that then they'd given themselves away" but I'm also your top scum read today. Can you elaborate?

And by the way, DCLVXI was the first on the wagon, Droog is listed first only because DCLVXI unvoted to avoid a quickhammer until we talked about it some more, and then revoted when he wanted it hammered. Probably doesn't matter much, but it's worth getting the facts right.
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Post Post #861 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:21 am

Post by Phillammon »

I'm not sure what the problem is here. If scum wanted to (and weren't already on the wagon) they could have quickhammered. That act would have made it INCREDIBLY obvious that they were scum, however, and I refuse to believe that this hypothetical scum would not have realized this.
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Post Post #862 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:29 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 860, Fink wrote:but as much as I've got on Thor's case about saying this: it's really really annoying when people comment without reading the game.

Yes...soon, soon you too shall be making comments and having newbs act like you're being a jerk and then being asked to defend your attitude.
Give in to the hatred, let it flow through you :twisted:
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Post Post #863 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:30 am

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Phil: Why do you find me more scummy for being the one to hammer? I could have just as easily sit back and let Dys hammer while I kept my vote stubbornly on you. The things you've said about me don't actually relate to my position on the wagon, and I want to hear your thoughts on that.
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Post Post #864 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:30 am

Post by Thor665 »

@Phil - you seem to town read me, I strongly town read Fink. What are your thoughts on that and why haven't you tried to discuss it with me?
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Post Post #865 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:32 am

Post by Phillammon »

In post 863, Fink wrote:Phil: Why do you find me more scummy for being the one to hammer? I could have just as easily sit back and let Dys hammer while I kept my vote stubbornly on you. The things you've said about me don't actually relate to my position on the wagon, and I want to hear your thoughts on that.


I don't think you're scummy for hammering, I think you're scummy for pursuing the wagon at all, regardless of where your vote came in the wagon, when you have guaranteed scum in another player and sufficinet players receptive to the lynch to run me up a tree
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Post Post #866 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:34 am

Post by Fink »

In post 862, Thor665 wrote:
Yes...soon, soon you too shall be making comments and having newbs act like you're being a jerk and then being asked to defend your attitude.
Give in to the hatred, let it flow through you :twisted:


What's happening to me? What have I become?!?!?!?! :eek:
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Post Post #867 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:34 am

Post by Phillammon »

In post 864, Thor665 wrote:@Phil - you seem to town read me, I strongly town read Fink. What are your thoughts on that and why haven't you tried to discuss it with me?


Not sure on the why I haven't tried to discuss it, but primarily it's because agreeing/disagreeing with me is independent of role. Appreciating the arguments being made and agreeing with them are not the same concept. The fact that at least two of my townreads read me as scum should be testament to that- I know they're wrong, but I can see why they think it, and that's good enough.
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Post Post #868 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:40 am

Post by Phillammon »

In post 865, Phillammon wrote:
In post 863, Fink wrote:Phil: Why do you find me more scummy for being the one to hammer? I could have just as easily sit back and let Dys hammer while I kept my vote stubbornly on you. The things you've said about me don't actually relate to my position on the wagon, and I want to hear your thoughts on that.


I don't think you're scummy for hammering, I think you're scummy for pursuing the wagon at all, regardless of where your vote came in the wagon, when you have guaranteed scum in another player and sufficinet players receptive to the lynch to run me up a tree


To add to this, because I somehow forgot, my current prime issue with your pursuit of that wagon:
In post 480, Fink wrote:I think acryon's argument is dumb, but I think it's probably town.


In post 729, Fink wrote:I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself.


Mentions of acryon between these two posts: 5. Mentions of Acryon that actually used anything Acryon had said or were in fact anything other than asking Acryon to comment on something you'd already said, while he was V/LA: 0.
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Post Post #869 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:42 am

Post by Fink »

In post 865, Phillammon wrote:I think you're scummy for pursuing the wagon at all, regardless of where your vote came in the wagon, when you have guaranteed scum in another player and sufficinet players receptive to the lynch to run me up a tree


:facepalm:

I thought we'd been over this ad nauseum.

Look here people: In the past page, we've been over and over this, around in circles. Droog, Thor, Acryon, DCLXVI, and Phil were very clearly never going to vote for Phil. That is a majority of town.

Phil keeps brining up this point, well past the point where it's refuted. I can't see a town motive for this, it doesn't seem like something a person interested in finding the truth would do.

I can see two scum motivations for it:
1) By bringing up the point over and over, especially when it's clear people like Droog aren't paying close attention, it plants the seed that people may start to believe it, especially since I'm the only one pointing out that it is wrong. If people start to believe it, they start to believe a bad case is a good case, and it helps steer town toward what I believe scum-Phil would see as the most important mislyinch: me.

2) By driving me to keep talking about it, he makes it more likely people will start to tune me out and lose the thread in this stupid debate.

These both make sense for scum-Phil to keep coming back to this. I can't see why town-Phil wouldn't be happy finding other things to accuse me with, or spending more time looking into things I said. At this point I've provided plenty of interactions and opinions worth going over, but he doesn't seem to be going over them.
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Post Post #870 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:42 am

Post by Phillammon »

Why is droog in that list. Particularly when there is quoted evidence that that is not true?
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Post Post #871 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:44 am

Post by Phillammon »

In post 684, droog wrote:
i think id be okay with philamon. let me read through the thread to confirm my new biases


Here it is again, for those of us who missed it.
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Post Post #872 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:46 am

Post by Fink »

Also, please note that Phil seems to think the scummiest thing is changing your opinion. This fits
extremely
well with the narrative of scum-Phil that Thor was disagreeing with me about yesterday. Phil has gone out of his way to avoid changing his vote or his opinion. He's going above and beyond not to do the things that he is most thinking scum would do.

Town should not be concerned with not looking scummy to the point where it impairs their scumhunting. Scum has every reason to act this way.
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Post Post #873 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:51 am

Post by Phillammon »

Changing your opinion I have no issue with (see shaddowez). Changing your opinion with no explanation, I do take issue with. Please stop misrepresenting my arguments.
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Post Post #874 (ISO) » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:54 am

Post by Fink »

In post 809, droog wrote:It's past hammer time


I had previously made clear I wasn't going to hammer Acryon unless it was clear we couldn't get a Phil lynch through. I see no way to interpret Droog's post here besides "hammer him already, I'm not voting Phil." Click on the link above and read that quote in context. I think it's pretty clear.

If you need more than that, here's a comment of his from much later than yours.
In post 747, droog wrote:
To Acryon

seeing your thought process explained
1) i still think its naively wronng
2) i sympathize with it more which means im leaning more town on you

not enough of a shift to make me think you arent the best lynch option righ


You're accusing me of hammering Acryon when I could have got Droog's support for a Phil lynch. I'd like an explaination as to why any reasonable person should think that is a possibility.

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