Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[VictorDeAngelo]

Do you think Acryon is scum or misguided town Silver?

[acryon]

Ok, here are some specifics SilverWolf.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.

How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.

[SilverWolf]

Do you think Acryon is scum or misguided town Silver?

I believe it is very possible he is jumping onto a case that mathdino and Wisdom already discussed with me in detail yesterday to push it again. I'm not liking this or his aggression this game or his jumping into conversations and answering questions not directed at him. I also think some of his posts come off as forced/fake regarding trying to appear town and trying to appear to be scumhunting. It seems like it could be scum motivated.

I will give more detailed reads later and elaborate on this but I have very little interest in having the exact same discussion with acryon that I had with Wisdom and mathdino and if he has some original points, he'd like me to address, I would be willing to do so.

I have a meeting to go to in about 10 minutes so it might have to wait until later.

Reads are coming.

[acryon]

You haven't discussed either of the posts I just quoted above with anyone.

[SilverWolf]

Ok, here are some specifics SilverWolf.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself.

How is that bad at all? Some people like to question players directly, and others like to present some information and poll the audience.

I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.

unvote

vote: Wisdom

This is a good point and it is worth pointing out that as soon as wgeurts said Wisdom may be scum pushing his wagon from the sidelines and not backing it up with a vote, he immediately votes wgeurts on the faulty reasoning that he unvoted himself even though he was asked to do so by several and asked to give the reads he did on his wagon. This was a no-win situation for wgeurts. Something I can see scum pushing.

I don't actually like this argument at all. It has been abundantly clear where Wisdom's intentions were. As someone that tends to prefer questioning over voting for pressure, I can relate to this somewhat. If a wgerts lynch went through, I doubt anyone would be ignorant enough to think that Wisdom wasn't involved in getting the wagon going. Wisdom is still a null to me at this point, but I think this argument is bad.

I explained my case on Wisdom in detail last night as well as my problem with mathdino's case on me. This is not original content. What exactly do you need me to elaborate on that I have not already discussed?

Keep in mind, I may not get to this until later.

[SilverWolf]

You haven't discussed either of the posts I just quoted above with anyone.

Yes I have with both mathdino and Wisdom. If there is any further discussion on this that is not me repeating what I already said to them, let me know and I'll address it.

[acryon]

*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.

For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

[SilverWolf]

*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.

For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.

[acryon]

*Sigh* Nobody discussed the two posts I was commented on from you, nor are there answers to the comments I posed in the quotes I re-posted above.

For the sake of avoiding beating a dead horse, I'll make things very simple and clear. Forget what I think about the rest of your posting history and everything else, and just answer me these questions.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.

You really didn't. The comment I made was on this post:

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?

The fact that you pulled posts based on an ISO of me, gave your interpretation of my thoughts, and asked others what they thought of me, with zero questions directed at me or giving me any chance to explain or defend myself. You are accusing me of not having much of a case on Wisdom but your case on me was much weaker. I feel like both yourself and Wisdom are picking at anyone you think is going to be an easy target which makes me look at both of you as scum looking for the easy mislynch.

And he never replied to you after that so you couldn't have replied to his question about that post.

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.

Here is what I think the problem is. You seem to think that there is only one answer to any number of questions concerning something you did. The reality is, there are many pieces to a single comment/action, and I commented on, and asked you to address, pieces that hadn't been addressed yet. If anyone thinks I am being too nit-picky here, then fine, but I don't think what I'm asking for is overly-complicated. Clearly I'm not convinced that you had answered the questions

I

was asking, so you could have easily just linked the responses you thought fulfilled what I was looking for, because I can't find them.

[Mathdino]

I thought I said more than that?

And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat

. But I will for posterity.

-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)

-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)

-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)

-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)

-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.

-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.

TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.

So far you are just disagreeing with the points I am making and using the same old argument mathdino and Wisdom are using regarding the piggy-backing without using any real original content. I've already answered to this. You just don't like it. Where's your original content in your case above?

You're wrong (nice way to start a post I know). I'm not really quite sure if you read the post. Speaking as the person who thought he laid out every single reason one could possibly have for voting you, acryon did in fact have new reasons and I bolded them above.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that that wasn't original, but what you're doing is deflection. "Oh, you're attacking me for so-and-so? Well this other guy has TOTALLY done so-and-so, why are you going after the one who can't defend myself?" Except the other guy hasn't done that at all. Trust me, I ISO'd every single player and every other player has provided more content than you have. Apologies for the dramatisation.

Do you think Acryon is scum or misguided town Silver?

I believe it is very possible he is jumping onto a case that mathdino and Wisdom already discussed with me in detail yesterday to push it again. I'm not liking this or his aggression this game or his jumping into conversations and answering questions not directed at him. I also think some of his posts come off as forced/fake regarding trying to appear town and trying to appear to be scumhunting. It seems like it could be scum motivated.

Silver, you act as if A. the discussion was ONLY between you, me, and Wisdom, and B. once I unvoted you, it was over. I specifically asked everyone to participate in the discussion just to see what people thought, and acryon stepped up to the plate (I for one, am pleased that he actually managed to add to the case). Also, the "Trying to appear town and trying to appear to be scumhunting" is a universal case that can be used on literally every mafia player. Ever. Show us proof that his posts are forced/fake.

You have successfully OMGUSed (by way of suspicion) everyone to put suspicion on you.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.

Silver, part of the purpose of questioning you is to get you to rephrase and to see how well you match up with what you said previously. Avoiding questions because you think the discussion is over is just more deflection.

Because of basically everything you said since my last post (and no, Silver, it's not because acryon voted), you're back at the top.
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf

[SilverWolf]

Sounds good to me.

[Mathdino]

Alright, so like blindme said, this town's incredibly divided and at this rate if everyone votes their top suspects, no one's getting lynched. Halfway into the day, I think we're ready to look at our options:
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong on these.

acryon

wants to lynch Silver and is willing to lynch wgeurts.

blindmewithscience

wants to lynch wgeurts and seems unsure on Wisdom and Silver (

blindme

, I'd appreciate your thoughts on those 2 wagons and anyone else you feel is worthy of suspicion).

FinnLaw

seems willing to lynch Wisdom and is unsure on wgeurts.

Malakittens

wants to lynch acryon and is unsure on a whole bunch of people (

Mala

, I don't think we're getting a lynch on acryon. I only speak for me but I'm pretty sure he's town atm. If you want, build a case, but I'd prefer your thoughts on the other suspects)

Mathdino

wants to lynch Silver and is willing to lynch wgeurts.

Newbie

wants to lynch Wisdom (

Newbie

, I'd really appreciate if you expanded on your other suspicions just in case the Wisdom wagon doesn't pull through)

Not_Mafia

is unwilling to lynch wgeurts and is on V/LA.

SilverWolf

wants to lynch Wisdom and seems willing to lynch acryon and Mathdino.

TellTaleHeart

wants to lynch Wisdom.

VictorDeAngelo

wants to lynch wgeurts, and based on wgeurts being scum is willing to lynch SilverWolf and blindmewithscience.

wgeurts

wants to lynch Wisdom and is willing to lynch Victor. (Hasn't posted since the Silver suspicions started popping up.

wgeurts

, thoughts on that?)

Wisdom

wants to lynch wgeurts and is willing to lynch SilverWolf or Newbie, seems unsure on Mala.

That's 6 on Wisdom, 5 on wgeurts, 4 on Silver, 2 on acryon, 1 on blindme, 1 on Newbie, 1 on myself, 1 on Victor.
However, we should note that the majority of the town that's talked is unwilling to lynch wgeurts right now, so unless that's our only option other than a NL, that wagon doesn't seem like it's going to pull through.
For the Wisdom wagon, people who aren't already voting him seem fairly unsure on him.

Which is why I think we need more discussion on Silver. Paging

blindmewithscience

,

FinnLaw

,

Malakittens

, and

TTH

. Finn and TTH in particular since they've posted since my case and haven't discussed at all yet.

[blindmewithscience]

On mobile, will post as well as I can.
The wagon on Wisdom (IIRC) is mainly because he criticized wgeurts (who many think is town) and because of his weird immediate voting for wgeurts after he received from heat for not voting him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This wagon is largely based on the argument that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. As I said before, I'm leaning towards this assumption being correct but I want more information. And so I'm basically against this wagon-the premise is wrong, and the conclusion is wrong (AKA Wisdom isn't scum). Of course, this entire thing is all based on assuming that wgeurts and Wisdom are on opposite sides. TL;DR: I think wisdom leans because I think wgeurts leans scum.

And silver is still a mystery. The arguments against her are much, much stronger than her (pretty weak) defenses. 347 was an interesting one to me. At first, it seemed like a really obvious frustrated townie post: but the recent arguments made against her (the AtE is strong with this one, and the actual defense isn't that good). I'm slowly being convinced by the arguments against her. So in order to prevent my conversion, I'd like to see a good defense by silver.

Also, my mind is pretty dead right now. Could someone explain post 385 to me? Silver wolf, are you just accepting the arguments against you or something else?

[Mathdino]

Silver's 347, Silver's 385.

Liking blindme for town for reasons already pointed out. Thought process seems fairly natural.

I just realised that I completely forgot to include Newbie in my reads list. Everything on her ISO with the exception of the wagon hop to Wisdom seems townish, but what I don't get is how or why she got convinced so easily by someone she thought was scum a page prior. I could see how she might fall for the AtE self voting/unvoting stuff, but that doesn't negate everything did beforehand.

Newbie, sorry for the rampant questioning, but can you explain this more?

On a sidenote, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm not sure what I think of Newbie's overconfidence that Wisdom isn't town (saying she'll be a top suspect if he does). On the contrary; if Wisdom is lynched and actually flips scum, I'm turning to you for bussing the guy.
Slightly leaning town on Newbie, I don't think that's gonna change until we get at least a flip.

Actually, I remember having thoughts on interactive tells I forgot to post. Lemme see if I can remember those and I'll post a few thoughts in a sec.

[Newbie]

Newbie

wants to lynch Wisdom (

Newbie

, I'd really appreciate if you expanded on your other suspicions just in case the Wisdom wagon doesn't pull through)

I just realised that I completely forgot to include Newbie in my reads list. Everything on her ISO with the exception of the wagon hop to Wisdom seems townish, but what I don't get is how or why she got convinced so easily by someone she thought was scum a page prior. I could see how she might fall for the AtE self voting/unvoting stuff, but that doesn't negate everything did beforehand.

Newbie, sorry for the rampant questioning, but can you explain this more?

My other suspect was Finnlaw, but I went back and found this. Finnlaw is crossed off of my list for

now

. For now, I'm going to focus one thing at a time, or I'll overload myself, lol.

As for wgeurts, he gave me exactly what I asked for and made a good point against Wisdom, who as you can see I was suspecting before Wgeurts even did the whole self-vote thing. It was pretty much between those two for me (I figured they both couldn't be scum because of earlier interactions, but as you pointed out, bussing does exist. I doubt they were bussing each other if Wisdom does flip as mafia though, but it's a strong possibility to keep in mind.).

On a sidenote, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm not sure what I think of Newbie's overconfidence that Wisdom isn't town (saying she'll be a top suspect if he does). On the contrary; if Wisdom is lynched and actually flips scum, I'm turning to you for bussing the guy.
Slightly leaning town on Newbie, I don't think that's gonna change until we get at least a flip.

Actually, I remember having thoughts on interactive tells I forgot to post. Lemme see if I can remember those and I'll post a few thoughts in a sec.

I'm actually not

that

confident that wisdom is mafia. I am confident but not extremely. I see can how this post would come off that way. When I said 'if Wsidom's town then I'll be getting lynched but it's a chance that I'm willing to take', I meant that I would probably shoot up on suspect lists for going after a flipped townie, but it's just how it is, and it's a risk I'm willing to take because he's my strong scum suspect at the moment, and I think he'll flip mafia (Again, I could end up being wrong.).

Also, I assure you, if Wisdom does in fact flip mafia, then I'm not bussing him. I find it odd that you said that. It kind of puts me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation (if Wisdom flips town then I'm highly suspected as a mafia member pushing a town lynch, if Wisdom flips scum then I'm highly suspected for bussing him).

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Only Directed To Newbie

I disagree on wgeurts but I can see where you're coming from, thanks. I do agree that it's very much doubtful they're both scum. I should point out though that focusing on one thing/person at a time is basically tunneling, which pretty much gets us nowhere and blinds us to other possible suspects. After all, there are 3 scum, and there's always the chance neither wgeurts nor Wisdom is one of them.

I'll take you at your word for now because I still think you're town and I still think Wisdom's town, haha. The bussing suspicion was derived entirely from the post you linked to; the fact that you're at risk if you mislynch really just doesn't need to be said, since that's true of pretty much everyone. If Wisdom flips town, I'll still think you're town. You should know that people bus a LOT nowadays, and a lot of the time scum like to stay off town wagons precisely so they're not blamed for it. It's all very WIFOMy and kinda pointless to discuss before D2. Honestly Newbie, I think your issue might be basing too much off of interactions and preconceived notions (Wisdom is scum, therefore the people voting him are town, etc). Scum behaviour is scum behaviour.

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

[SilverWolf]

On mobile, will post as well as I can.
The wagon on Wisdom (IIRC) is mainly because he criticized wgeurts (who many think is town) and because of his weird immediate voting for wgeurts after he received from heat for not voting him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This wagon is largely based on the argument that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. As I said before, I'm leaning towards this assumption being correct but I want more information. And so I'm basically against this wagon-the premise is wrong, and the conclusion is wrong (AKA Wisdom isn't scum). Of course, this entire thing is all based on assuming that wgeurts and Wisdom are on opposite sides. TL;DR: I think wisdom leans because I think wgeurts leans scum.

Can you please clarify this for me? You are leaning towards the assumption being correct that wgeurts is a frustrated townie but you also think he leans scum? Which one is it? I agree that wgeurts needs to get back in here and answer for himself.

You also said this in 310

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

But now you think the wagon and reasoning behind it is wrong? What made you change your mind?

Also, I liked your 325 at first but in addition to your other posts, I can see you do a lot of recapping of events that have occurred in your posts. You are playing things safe and fencesitting on a lot of issues. Your admonishment of me for how I handled mathdino's case in 310 really was not adding anything to the conversation either. It seemed somewhat opportunistic also.

And silver is still a mystery. The arguments against her are much, much stronger than her (pretty weak) defenses. 347 was an interesting one to me. At first, it seemed like a really obvious frustrated townie post: but the recent arguments made against her (the AtE is strong with this one, and the actual defense isn't that good). I'm slowly being convinced by the arguments against her. So in order to prevent my conversion, I'd like to see a good defense by silver.

Also, my mind is pretty dead right now. Could someone explain post 385 to me? Silver wolf, are you just accepting the arguments against you or something else?

347 Was actually the way I was feeling at the time and a reaction to the tunnelling I was dealing with. I'm beyond frustrated with it for a variety of reasons. That's also why I wrote 385

What more do you need to hear from me specifically regarding a good defense that I have not already said?

[SilverWolf]

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

Yes, this is exactly a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario that you've been doing to me all game. You are bound and determined to see me as scum and lynched regardless of what I say or do. There is literally nothing I can say that you aren't going to find fault with and come up with some scenario or reasoning to call it scummy. It is why I am extremely frustrated dealing with you because your sole focus has been on wguerts and when he didn't pan out, now it's on me. You are suffering from a severe case of tunnel vision and I'm tired of it.

So you changed your mind on Wisdom being town and now he's scum so you can further your multiple page continuous rant about how you are so certain I am scum? I find your dramatics here really quite amusing. Let's banish me now? You are really a piece of work.

Let's see how many more stories you can come up with. Given time, I'm sure there's a few more fantasies you can entertain us with, since you are so certain I am scum.

What are you going to do when I flip town? Who is going to be the next person you try to banish?

[SilverWolf]

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

This is BS. I listed the reasons I found him scummy here 301 and here 304. I indeed did mention Wisdom's vote post here 305 and responded to Newbie's post on Wisdom here after I had already made a case for him 308.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

Really, already responded to this in my previous post and gave it all the attention it deserves.

[SilverWolf]

Also, mathdino, you might want to consider that associative tells are far more useful after a flip. Otherwise, you are just making up stories.

[Malakittens]

So there's a good chance that one of Wisdom/Wge is scum. Wisdom surprisingly doesn't feel town. Also I'm disliking his read on me because I think it's pure bullshit.

UNVOTE: Acyron

[Malakittens]

Also I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah...

[Mathdino]

Okay first of all, the last part of that was written tongue in cheek, mocking the whole 'compromise' thing I was going for. I'm glad you found them amusing, that was the point

Anyway, I haven't been doing that to you all game at all. There are very many things you can say I won't find fault with; hell, I was prepared to praise the reads list you promised twice for at least being new content. Still waiting on that by the way. Anything original from you that's not AtE I'll appreciate. You're falling into the trap of assuming that because I criticised everything you did, there's no longer any point defending and continuing the game with me. And as I said, I don't respond well to AtE or complaining or dismissal.
I find your tunnel vision thing interesting, considering I am in fact commenting on everyone and came to you as a result of not wanting to tunnel wgeurts and just make a wgeurts vs Wisdom debate. wgeurts hasn't posted since before your case, so yeah, it's on you. Deal with it, being scrutinised is the name of the game.

I don't think Wisdom is scum, and I didn't change my mind. It's called a compromise. I think if Wisdom flips scum, it would very much make sense that you guys would be bussing each other, so I'm asking the Wisdom wagon to at least consider it. And no, it's not a fantasy, it's called basic logic. If A implies B, and not A implies B, then B is true. A = "Wisdom is scum". B = "SilverWolf is scum". Do the Math.

If you flip town? I still have my suspicions on wgeurts. I think Wisdom may have a point on there being scum in {SilverWolf, Newbie} but as I said I'm not prepared to go after Newbie without at least a flip. I'll also go over some wagon analysis, but I can't exactly do that right now.

How bout you? Do you have suspicions on ANYONE who doesn't have suspicions for you? I think it's really rich that all it takes to get attacked by you is a vote or FoS. It's like a quadruple OMGUS.

Edit: Written as of #392.
Edit: Mala stop ninjaing me...

[Mathdino]

Silver, you misunderstand me. I know you listed the reasons you find Wisdom scummy. But every one of those applies to me as well. So why hop on the Wisdom wagon? Is that not opportunism in itself? All 305 says is you disagree with Wisdom's vote. Well good for you. I voted wgeurts too, as did a lot of people. And then 308, as I mentioned previously, is just a repeat of what Newbie said.

Associative tells are useful after a flip, yes.
So why do you keep using them for your Wisdom case? It relies on wgeurts being town, does it not?
My point is that you being scum doesn't even rely on Wisdom's flip. It's essentially a refutation of Newbie's read on you (she thinks you're town because Wisdom is scum).

Dammit Mala, y u ignore the entire SilverWolf fiasco...

[Malakittens]

b/c I need to go to bed and I'm really prod dodging. I didn't read the last few pages besides the end posts I skimmed looking at the last VC