Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Fink]

I don't think my case on Droog is brilliant or anything, but these last few days have felt weird coming from the guy who said this:

but have you ever had a brilliant case against scum
and they proceed to have a long form argument with you?

no one will read it
most people will develop town or null reads on you and your accuser
thats what the last few pages have felt like

[Fink]

And regarding the early reads, in context you can't possibly have missed the fact that that post was all about Bob's page 2 reads. I said that looking at only pages 1 and 2 I'd have had a null read on Droog. In my first posts of the game I said that I had a townread on him, but those came much later, mostly from his conduct during Thor v. Blair if I remember correctly.

There is no discrepancy there. There is so little discrepancy there that I find it hard to believe someone can claim I'm contradicting myself in trying to build a legitimate case on me. Even the giant wall post is making up non-issues from whole cloth, which I'd find enormously scummy, but then he doesn't even vote for me. I don't know, but scum has plenty of motive to try to discredit their attacker and drown them out with walls of bullshit, and that manufactured contradiction at least is either scummy, or from half-assed, non-thinking town.

I'm happy to lynch over this.

[Thor665]

And regarding the early reads, in context you can't possibly have missed the fact that that post was all about Bob's page 2 reads. I said that looking at only pages 1 and 2 I'd have had a null read on Droog. In my first posts of the game I said that I had a townread on him, but those came much later, mostly from his conduct during Thor v. Blair if I remember correctly.

There is no discrepancy there.

I went and looked.
This is all true. (well, the Page 2 basis of commentary part - which is the important part)

Unvote: Shaddowez
Vote: Droog

L-2

[droog]

I'm interested in looking at Thor's contention that Bob's reads are made up, so I'm going to look at all the posts on page 2 that he could have formed reads from.

page 2
droog seems town
thor doesn't

if I understand the setup correctly, johnny staying alive was pretty essential to the scumteam
thor would want the first day to end before he's forced to oppose the johnny wagon

also "I townread droog" doesn't feel natural in context

What I notice (which I think is what Thor is talking about) is that Bob is

already

approaching this from the presumption of scumThor. Obviously he looked at the flips (and I think he agreed he saw a current votecount) so he's read a touch more than just pages 1 and 2, but I have to agree this looks like a read generated fabricated to justify a vote that has already been decided. Which is the same thing I'm accusing Phil of, but Bob is doing it worse.

Anyway, let's look at what was posted up until page 2 to generate these reads.

Droog seems town

post 15: "If you say stupid things you will start stupid discussions" & votes Cheetory to drive 2 wagons.
post 16: Notices that YYR voted twice, so wagons aren't tied.
post 30: Confirming Dys' explaination of Droog's miscounting wgeurts/Cheetory votes. Don't see how you could get anything from this.
post 32: "Question was dumber than autocorrect." That's all, again not allignment indicative.
post 34: Explaining to Dys why he thinks YYR's question is dumb (because it will only lead to someone calling it dumb or meta talk). I don't see how this is alignment indicative either, but it does take a stance, so I guess maybe you could.
post 37: Snarky empty reply.
post 38: "Do you?" (Asking if Dys has anything to say.)
post 40: Explaining to Cheetory that his reasoning about the useless question has nothing to do with his Cheetory vote.

Thor doesn't

There's only 2 of these, so I'll just quote them, esp. since they're the most important part:

Vote: Cheetory

L-1
Anyone who isn't serious about this can flee like children now. We have a wagon at near lynch.
I am also open to hear from anyone who likes the idea of hammering it.

I townread Droog.
I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

Firstly, I don't understand the point of bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, especially since it seems to me like most of the players here seem experienced enough to know that bandwagon analysis can be useful for town. Why would scum not simply position themselves on a wagon in such a way that will protect them from the general analysis players apply to bandwagons? Unless the point is just to put pressure on someone? Which, again, scum equally stands to benefit from safe bandwagon votes for the sake of appearing to be playing protown.

droog's vote on me stands out as the most likely candidate for scum posing as a protown player for adding momentum to a wagon without really doing anything else, which reads as coasting to me. By extension, I'm also not particularly a fan of Dys's vote, but I feel worse about droog's. Droog also calls YYR's questioning of me bad scumhunting which almost makes me feel like he finds YYR more questionable than me and thus makes his vote on me for purely bandwagon's sake even more questionable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But you're pointing out that bandwagoning isn't helpful because scum can place themselves on bandwagons in a way to avoid suspicion.
You then vote Droog for the reasoning of "his position on the bandwagon looks suspicious"

I feel like I *must* be reading this wrong, because if I'm not I feel like you just claimed scum. Discuss?

Thor's first post seems to me like a way to see what everyone does and push the game forward: he wants to see who unvotes, who considers hammering. It seems like he's trying to put everyone in a weird position. I don't find it scummy, but I guess I can see that, but not as a strong read.

Thor's second post (immediately after the first) seems to be supporting his vote in his first post as a serious vote. The "claimed scum" thing is over-the-top (as has been discussed

ad nauseum

) but he does appear to be legitimately pressing a scum read. He's just doing it antagonistically.

So here's Bob's elaboration on this later (regarding Thor's first post):

I've talked to you about anti-town behavior and mafia principles, which is what this is all about
You had a way more self-righteous attitude when talking about it in md
It's hard to say why your attitude isn't
Why should page 2 reads be easier to explain than page 40 reads? I find them equally hard to articulate.

Bob doesn't really elaborate on why he finds Thor's first post so scummy. I think the "anti-town" behavior thing comes from Thor's voting of wgeurts, but seeing as how the thread in MD where they interact is about Thor wanting to policy-lynch anyone who self-votes, the actual act of voting for scummy-quickhammering wgeurts is far from surprising.

What Bob seems to be saying, though, is that Thor is softer in his lynching of wgeurts here, and therefore scum. I'm not sure I buy the premise, but even if we grant that, the conclusion doesn't follow.

Thor-the-person is in favor of lynching people for being anti-Town.

Thor-the-player is less self-righteous in attempting to lynch quickhammering wgeurts than he is out-of-game.
...
Therefore: Thor is scum!

This doesn't make any sense.

@Bob: Explain your logic. What scum-motive does Thor have for being less abrassive? Because I can see a null reason for his behavior, even granting your premise. But I don't see any reason to expect scumThor in particular to behave like this or townThor to behave differently.

@Mod: Is it permissable to post quotes from the Mafia Discussion forum in game?

@Bob: I think I read the thread you're talking about today, and I don't see what you're talking about. Presuming Not_Mafia okays it, could you please post what Thor said in that thread that made you think he'd react differently?

@Bob: Could you explain what in the first two pages made you townread Droog (your only read at that point)?

@Thor: After Bob goes, could you explain why

you

townread Droog in that first post? Also your early Dys read?

... and I'm caught up!

Is acryons terrible argument a plot to get us to town read him

Does anyone understand his argument
I can't see scum making it otherwise

My thoughts exactly on this. I think acryon's argument is dumb, but I think it's probably town.

Blair was towny at the start and recently, but the way she kept engaging with Thor seemed suspicious while reading it. But I think that the most logical explaination at this point is that she got understandably frustrated with Thor and wouldn't let it drop.

Shaddowez still seems like a townish lurker to me, but there still isn't that much to go on.

Droog is still my top town read.

Bins hasn't really said enough for me to form much of an opinion, but I certainly think there are better targets today.

Dyslexicon has really stepped it up in this last page, but I never felt terribly negative about her anyway.

So I'm most inclined to vote for Thor or Phillammon. I don't understand why Thor should get a free pass for wasting countless pages with unhelpful non-responses, circular arguments, and just making everything painful to read and generally upping the uselessness level of that reading since the vast majority of the talking is people having stupid arguments with him. He's hurting the town either as crazy town or as crazily brave scum. I think 50-50 he's scum, and if he's town, we'd be better off without him. If that wagon gets going I would totally vote Thor.

But my top scumread is Phillammon, mostly for post #328 as I said before. I'll post a more detailed thing on that in a moment, but for now:

VOTE: Phillammon

Fink that is complete bullshit

The first post quoted above is where you call my first posts "seemingly town"
That was in response to bob as you claimed

But that is not the post I quoted from in my case
The second one is

You had my first posts as a town read
Later my first posts merit a scum read
No explanation for this change has been given

[droog]

In my post
I showed a contradiction between 480 and 1082
Finks last (I think?) post refers to 1081

[droog]

It's rich that multiple times now Droog is comparing his putting Phillamon into a list of people who voted on all the previous wagons when he in fact did not do so as being equivalent to my typo of undersuspicious rather than under suspicion. One of those is a hell of a lot easier to type on accident, undersuspicious isn't even a word and wouldn't have made any sense in context, and Droog has been weirdly fixated on it forever.

But yes, I think his post laid out a pretty good list of times I've already been finding his suspicious.

If it's suddenly scummy to slowly suspect a town read more and more for weeks and have one final suspicious thing pushes you over into voting for them, it's scummy to change your mind suddenly, and it's scummy to never change your mind, why the hell are we even playing this game, let's just vote randomly!

My random vote remains on Droog.

The typo of yours I didn't like
Was one part of a broad case size=200][/size]

You claim that my typo completely changed your read on Phil
How are those comparable

You've still never adequately examined why you think I was scum in the first place
Or responded to my case on you from all those posts ago

[droog]

VOTE: wgeurts

classic rvs vote that doesn't need explaining
except

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

yyr already had an rvs vote. why change it?

The fact that Cheetory gave me a reason for thinking scumJohnny and not townJohnny when I asked makes me think he has better reasoning for voting Johnny over his initial vote, which I don't see going anywhere. I think he's being too conservative with his vote especially when Johnny has given out information that wasn't strictly necessary and he claims there's possible scum motivation behind it.

now this is the post to which yyr has to be referring
and it conveniently fits between the posts where yyr changed his vote

I guess it could be playing carefully/thinking a little far ahead if I stretch. Could easily be explained by the fact that Johnny might be nervous about playing on mafiascum for the first time in a year though so meh.

play this back

The fact that Cheetory gave me a reason for thinking scumJohnny and not townJohnny when I asked

I guess it could be playing carefully/thinking a little far ahead if I stretch. Could easily be explained by the fact that Johnny might be nervous about playing on mafiascum for the first time in a year though so meh.

cheetory never said anything like what yyr accused her of

now, its entirely possible that

yyr could manipulate, bandwagon, lurk, and fail to provide any meaningful scumhunting
(all in his first five posts)
without being scum

so i will show scum motive

remember how yyr created the day 1 wgeurts wagon by pushing it to 3 votes and then hopped off to vote for cheetory?

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.

not only does he not commit to a read on thor in any way
he

admits that he likes wagon building

why again did he switch from wgeurts to cheetory?

Cheet, your argument is that you responded with a reason for scumJohnny to not detract momentum of some possible strategy I had in mind.

My argument is that I didn't say it was scummy. You're putting words in my mouth. Read my response again and stop insinuating things I didn't actually say.

No, the first part of that paragraph is saying what I just said unless you want to reinterpret the first part of that paragraph for me. You're playing semantics if you didn't say he was scummy but instead only gave a reason that could mean he's scummy. Then what was the point of the exchange you and I had if you're essentially saying you said nothing of interest?

that paragraph is a mess so i'll break it down

No, the first part of that paragraph is saying what I just said unless you want to reinterpret the first part of that paragraph for me.

yyr says cheetory gave a reason why johnny could be scum -- which she did not do

You're playing semantics if you didn't say he was scummy but instead only gave a reason that could mean he's scummy.

yyr says that cheetory must have been calling johnny scummy
she gave a reason why he could be scum!

Then what was the point of the exchange you and I had if you're essentially saying you said nothing of interest?

so he accuses her of either contributing absolutely nothing
but this was in response to a situation

he created

that could not possibly have contributed anything

(which i pointed out earlier on day 1)

in short:

1) yyr's initial question was a horribly-worded meta question to which any answer is manipulable
2) yyr manipulated cheetory's answer
3) this provided yyr with a 'case' on cheetory
4) which scum would have needed for a mislynch

thor, none of us were building caes on cheetory.
the wagon on her was a classic day 1 first wagon
yyr alone was arguing that cheetory was scum

he set up the situation that let him argue cheetory was scum in the first place

as a final point, take a look at what yyr started doing day 2:

VOTE: wgeurts

Debating whether Johnny would make such a weak push on a Blair as a scummate. Seems a little too weak for it to be the strong busing I know Johnny is willing to do. Don't know how much he'd be willing to do in for this setup, though. Meh.

it's the same pattern

the entire conversation with acryon itches
here's what i mean

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon.

DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think.

Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

fink by contrast spends the rest of the day asking acryon questions to prove,
loudly and in public
that she's doing nothing of the sort

@ Acryon

But you haven't explained thet non-nothing reason for your reads changing at all. You are dangling at the end of a rope here, you should probably do so.

And also, you fail math. Whether or not that makes you townie or scummy, how about you lay off saying things mathematically don't make sense.

remember that exchange about math?
a nice way to rebutt acryon without making an enemy of him
"you're factually wrong" and not "i think you're scummy"

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself. But his very reasonableness as a lynch candidate without any real thing defining that, and the speed with which his wagon took off are what worry me, and I think it's worth questioning him before he dies. I don't see why that's surprising at all. And getting his vote actually onto Phil would give others (you/Droog/adorable kitty roman numeral guy) some more leverage to also queston Phil. I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now.

these are not the words of someone trying to suss out whether aycron is town or scum
she announces interest in lynching acryon
but wants to keep him around and ask him.... what?, exactly?
correct him on his math and ask him why his reads changed?

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

memory tells me that phil is more correct here
ill look over fink's phil case otherwise but everything acryon convincing her of phil is suspect

if acryon is scum, she found the teammate!
if acryon is town, phil is even scummier!

eh, i want to make sure someone's going to read it first
by all means if im saying something stupid/wrong please fix it

would rather see fink's response to anything else

is there something else im better served paying attention to?
im willing to entertain shaddowez

i think we're best served in phil/fink today though

Well fuck
Memory failed me
I never wrote a super case on fink
It was on yyr

But I'd explained why I thought fink was scum
So many times
That I had to ask if there was interest in a case

[droog]

Apologies for long quotes
Would have spoilers them but I'm on a phone
Mod is welcome to do so

[Fink]

The typo of yours I didn't like
Was one part of a broad case size=200][/size]

You claim that my typo completely changed your read on Phil
How are those comparable

You've still never adequately examined why you think I was scum in the first place
Or responded to my case on you from all those posts ago

1) You keep bringing up that typo (which was

not

part of any case with anything I thought worth replying to that I haven't already. The only reason I'm bringing it up is because you're equating my finding you stupid for finding me scummy for a typo with me finding you scummy for ADDING PHIL TO A LIST OF PEOPLE AND DOING ANALYSIS BASED ON IT when he didn't belong on that list. I don't think that was a typo. I do think you're working hard to discredit me by comparing it to your own earlier argument which I ridiculed.

2) I never claimed you changed my read on Phil. You made me think you weren't scumbuddies with Phil, and given the two of you, that pushed me into thinking you were the more likely to be scum. I've said it before, I don't understand why you're acting like this is such a shift. It isn't.

3) As you pointed out, you never had a real case on me, and I don't know why YYR asked Cheetory a useless question, but I think it's sufficient reason to tunnel someone all game given all the far far scummier things everyone has done since then. And I'm not going to engage in a wall war and let you get everyone skimming over this more than you already are.

[droog]

I don't think my case on Droog is brilliant or anything, but these last few days have felt weird coming from the guy who said this:

but have you ever had a brilliant case against scum
and they proceed to have a long form argument with you?

no one will read it
most people will develop town or null reads on you and your accuser
thats what the last few pages have felt like

You've never given one

Pedis will respond

[Fink]

Edit by way of post:

and I don't know why YYR asked Cheetory a useless question, but I

don't

think it's sufficient reason to tunnel someone all game given all the far far scummier things everyone has done since then. And I'm not going to engage in a wall war and let you get everyone skimming over this more than you already are.

[droog]

Fink:

1) you have changed opinions several times.
You still won't explain how my first posts went from
Looking town to looking scum

2) Earlier you complained I didn't discuss your posts with you
Now that I'm reading your posts, you don't
"Want to get in a wall war"
I.e. You don't want to discuss it

3) your theory about my typo requires that Phil is town
Phil is one of your biggest scum reads
So a fair question you

still haven't andwered
Why is my typo more worthy of a vote than 2 weeks of your Phil case

4) I don't like your sly implication that you're a bad scum read
Since "given all the far far scummier things everyone has done since then"

5) you've made a much bigger deal over your typo than I ever did

[Fink]

You want a short, to the point Droog case, how about this:

The person once so concerned for the readability of the thread, who pointed out how giant wall arguements make people skim and null-read both parties resorts to just such a tactic, along with blatantly making things up to discredit the person suspecting him as soon as he gets a vote.

Almost as if he were more worried about avoiding being lynched at any cost, rather than scumhunting, maintaining thread readability, or finding the truth.

And this isn't just this last thing, a major reason Droog was making me suspect him around the time Bob replaced in was that he kept ignoring what I said (esp. in the heat of the Me v. Phil period) and essentially making me keep repeating things and then pretending like he wasn't sure about details like whether Phil was a viable counterwagon to Acryon. He fed that argument, muddied the waters, and showed no real interest in finding the truth. It's a pattern in Droog's play.

[Fink]

I like how that numbered post doesn't address what I said, doesn't remotely correspond to the numbers I used, and while being a response to my numbered post, ignores the clarifications I made in it.

So it looks like an answer to people skimming to catch up while only serving to ignore what I'm saying and make this whole thing less readable.

It's a flak cannon of bullshit aimed at people skimming to catch up (as we've established too many people are doing this game.)

[Fink]

And between this blatant lie:

5) you've made a much bigger deal over your typo than I ever did

The calling me "sly" again which a) is still a weasel word and b) he knows I'll engage him over,
And the recurring emphasis on his inclusion of PHil in the list of the people on the wagon as a "typo",

this is really the ultimate in trying to bait me and obfuscate all the issues.

Like I don't see how this post could have come from town, rather than as a calculated attempt to make this into an unreadable mess and ignore/dismiss what I'm actually talking about.

And I have answered his question, but that's of course beside the point for Droog.

[Thor665]

In my post
I showed a contradiction between 480 and 1082
Finks last (I think?) post refers to 1081

Fink is referencing 1082.
When I did my research I looked at 1082.
When you called out the contradiction - you quoted 1082.

At the begining of 1082 Fink announces it as a summary (tl:dr) of 1081.

My vote on you holds.

[Fink]

Last post for a while:

Town wants to find scum and lynch them.
Scum wants to avoid being lynched and get town to mislynch itself.

Which motive better fits Droog's play today?
I know my answer, I'm voting it.

[droog]

fink still hasnt answered my questions
whatever other bullshit he wants to say
this is still a thing that's true

ergo, he has not really responded to my argument
case closed.

[droog]

It's this right here that bugs me the most about him. My slot, the YYR slot, WAS garnering votes due to inactivity, at least that's how I read Droog's initial vote. Now it wasn't only due to inactivity, and I have no idea what was going on with those initial few posts but I can see why that might also draw some votes. (Even stronger on the third read of that segment actually) But it's weird to dismiss that YYR's inactivity was a factor in putting votes on him (hoping he would speak up presumably). It seems to imply there is much more of a case on YYR than there actually was.

reminder fink said my case on yyr was valid

[droog]

evidence fink thought my first few posts were town:

Spoiler:

Droog has become my most solid town read

, just all-around pushing things in the right direction, trying to curb some of the play that seems actively anti-town.

Droog is still my top town read.

Droog: Initially I had him as scummiest,

but during the annoying Thor fight, he seemed pretty pro town

, so he's back to normal at this halfway point, leaning town.

the contradiction

Spoiler:

Bob when reading page 2 is already approaching this from the presumption of scumThor. I have to agree this looks like a read generated fabricated to justify a vote that has already been decided. Which is the same thing I'm accusing Phil of, but Bob is doing it worse.

I don't even think Thor's first 2 posts look scummy.

I don't think Droog's first few posts look towny either (I'd have had him at null)

. My early-game scumread on Thor came later than this.

someone who's not thor or fink please respond

[Bert]

fink still hasnt answered my questions
whatever other bullshit he wants to say
this is still a thing that's true

ergo, he has not really responded to my argument
case closed.

Hello Droog! Do you think Fink is scum? If not, why are you shutting down Fink's discussion with you with "case closed, he hasn't responded"?

[droog]

i thought fink was scum for a long time
i want to take a break from looking at fink,
and was before fink started spewing bs on me

i still want some time to think if i think fink is horribly confused and we've gotten our wires crossed
or real scum

i ended the discussion because fink complained that i was discussing too much
((or whatever im being accused of when he says im starting a wall war))

[droog]

mind, ive only ended the discussion insofar as im not responding to whatever fink says next

[Bert]

Who is scum if Fink isn't?

[droog]

thor makes a lot of sense as scum if fink is scum
they play off each other in an interesting way
but not much sense otherwise

i want to look at the dys slot when we get a good replacement
dys never did anything that especially convinced me of town motive

same goes for shaddowez

im liking your slot because i liked dcl before fink started making cases on it
have no faith in fink's scumhunting rn whether town or scum

philammon is pretty town in my eyes

i could see any of fink/shaddowez/dys
and thor if it's fink

but i want to take a breather on fink