Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

VC 5.12

Phillammon (0)-

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (1)-

Fink

Fink (2)-

droog, Bert

(L-2)

SlickWilly (0)-

Bert (2)-

Shaddowez, Thor665

(L-2)

Not Voting (2)-

Phillammon, SlickWilly

With

7

alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-11-06 22:00:00)

- Nov 6th 22:00 GMT

[SlickWilly]

I still favor droog as being scum. Mixed with my worry at 1429 and with Fink's analysis at 1435, he seems the best lynch. Thor gets plenty of townreads on himself, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets a whiff of paranoia from his playstyle 1440. Might just be confirmation bias, though. I feel confident at least one is mafia. Thor has been more helpful to town, so I'd rather not risk him gone too early.

I do wonder what happened to Fink's intent to lynch on Phil from 825. Abandoned for better target, change of heart, maybe targeting easier wagons?

More than halfway through catching up to previous days, woo!. Not sure how much I've absorbed, though. Unless something changes, I'm anticipating voting for droog. Would anyone mind giving me a quick synopsis of their reads on living players? I'll do the same tomorrow when I'm better acquainted.

Oh, and lemme try this again. UNVOTE:

[Thor665]

Your definition of scummy needs work?

Maybe so.
Tell you what - direct your play towards 'being town' and I'll meet you half way.

[SlickWilly]

I still favor droog as being scum. Mixed with my worry at #1429 and with Fink's analysis at #1435 , he seems the best lynch. Thor gets plenty of townreads on himself, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets a whiff of paranoia from his playstyle #1440. Might just be confirmation bias, though. I feel confident at least one is mafia. Thor has been more helpful to town, so I'd rather not risk him gone too early.

I do wonder what happened to Fink's intent to lynch on Phil from #825. Abandoned for better target, change of heart, maybe targeting easier wagons?

More than halfway through catching up to previous days, woo!. Not sure how much I've absorbed, though. Unless something changes, I'm anticipating voting for droog. Would anyone mind giving me a quick synopsis of their reads on living players? I'll do the same tomorrow when I'm better acquainted.

Oh, and lemme try this again. UNVOTE:

Ack, I butchered those links somehow. Post number should still line up, though.

I'll get myself straightened out eventually and actually check my posts before submitting.

[Not_Mafia]

Post links fixed. For reference it's [.post]"postnumber"[./post] with no dots, for instance [.post]0[./post] produces: 0

[droog]

Your definition of scummy needs work?

Word. Droog, how do you feel about Thor? Please answer directly.

I also think I'm waking up from supreme apathy. Which means I'll probably be dead really soon.

probably town
id tell thor more by his partner than by thor
i only see thor being scum with fink right now

mostly because i think fink has made awful arguments
((which i will turn to after this post))
that thor has not turned up

frankly, i started rethinking my fink read because no one else agreed with me
that phil thinks like i do is comfort

[droog]

spoiler tag problems
breaking this up

Maybe both of you should do a restatement of your issues with each other and address from there moving forward - I feel that would clean up this discussion.

short version:

1) fink has made several awful arguments that do not hang together

((see long version))

2) when i respond to those arguments, fink moves the goalposts

((see long version))

3) i see no reason for town fink to misconstrue me so badly

((i have not only been yelling at fink
whatever fink says, however poorly i may be trying
ive spent a good part of today overwriting my yyr/fink slot scumread
ive tried asking questions and reading fink's posts and playing nicely
i still see fink doing (1) and (2) ))

i want to believe fink is town because
i cant believe scum would so wildly misconstrue
but even more
i cant believe town fink would believe the things fink is saying

thor's and bert's problems with me are reasonable
fink's are not
this is why i scumread fink over thor and bert

[Bert]

what do you mean by "Thor has not turned up?"

do you agree that we need to do whatever it takes to ensure a lynch goes through this game day? even if it's you or me?

[Bert]

but yeah, I don't want to see you lynched, so I will in all likelihood not endorse your lynch even if deadline is winding down for a NL.

[droog]

long version:

((i guess i can't do spoilers inside spoilers??))

1) fink makes the argument that i intentionally
typo'd phil as being on a wagon he wasn't
in order to encourage a phil lynch

fink broadly ignored my counters
((like: why would i forge a votecount
and quote the original
in the same post??))

Spoiler:

But if you were going back and doing this, why'd you get the Acryon wagon wrong? Or am I misremebering that?

No, you even quoted it in your own post on the topic. But you then claimed Phil was on it in your summary. So the truth was only behind a spoiler. Phil's at L-2 right now, but if I move my vote you could hammer him.

Townpoints for Phil.

VOTE: Droog

I asked fink why I would make that mistake

Spoiler:

????

why would i intentionally make that mistake????
why would i manipulate something and leave it wide open?

Fink does not aswer my question
Fink elaborates on his version

Spoiler:

My thinking was that Droog thought I'd move my vote to Phil because it was a good excuse, and I'd maybe make a point about Phil being on all the wagons and the same never-lynched thing Shaddowez has been talking about, putting Phil at L-1.

Droog then sheeps my vote because I made a good point or something, lynching Phil. Then the next day he points out his error and that I should have caught it.

I've been pretty aggressive toward Phil (I think everyone can agree with that?), so I think he was assuming I wouldn't think too much about it.

Seems like a good way to get two more mislynches out of town by setting up the same logic about me.

Which of course is only true if Phil is town, hence my other comment when I voted.

Bert: I am

not

suddenly unwilling to vote you, I just want to vote Droog more for the moment.

in a much larger conversation
I point out that by Fink's theory
Phil is town
ergo, something changed that made me such a big scumread
that phil is again a townread

Spoiler:

3) your theory about my typo requires that Phil is town
Phil is one of your biggest scum reads
So a fair question you still haven't andwered
Why is my typo more worthy of a vote than 2 weeks of your Phil case

Fink does not try to explain his theory
instead responds to Thor
and decides that my wallposting is scummy

Spoiler:

You want a short, to the point Droog case, how about this:

The person once so concerned for the readability of the thread, who pointed out how giant wall arguements make people skim and null-read both parties resorts to just such a tactic, along with blatantly making things up to discredit the person suspecting him as soon as he gets a vote.

((completely moving the goalposts))

Fink started with a bad argument
Did not respond to my first challenge on it
And then changed the topic when I repeated my challenge

2) here's another example: fink's typo

Spoiler:

Final post of my catching up: Why the hell is Droog "throwing me in the scum pile" for a typo?

this refers to 1001

where i "throw fink in the scum pile" for several reasons
Rereading, Fink never directly explains which typo it was
Again, he makes my case ridiculous by not responding to it

near as i can tell fink doesn't like this:

Spoiler:

Phil,

when undersuspicious

plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

At no point did I say this

, he most certainly was, at least from Blair, Dys, and me.

you have to play very trick semantics to say
'phil was undersuspicious'
and
'at no point did i say he wasnt under suspicion'

so i put your words here

in the scum pile

fink mentions the typo again

It's rich that multiple times now Droog is comparing his putting Phillamon into a list of people who voted on all the previous wagons when he in fact did not do so as being equivalent to my typo of undersuspicious rather than under suspicion.

after i allege that fink is angrier about the typo than i am
fink says that 'i keep bringing up that typo'
and admits that it wasnt part of a case worth replying to again

1) You keep bringing up that typo (which was not part of any case with anything I thought worth replying to that I haven't already. The only reason I'm bringing it up is because you're equating my finding you stupid for finding me scummy for a typo with me finding you scummy for ADDING PHIL TO A LIST OF PEOPLE AND DOING ANALYSIS BASED ON IT when he didn't belong on that list. I don't think that was a typo. I do think you're working hard to discredit me by comparing it to your own earlier argument which I ridiculed.

NOTE: do as ctrl-f of 'typo' on my iso
it doesn't appear until we start discussing my (later, separate) typo

fink declared that he made a typo without properly responding
makes a bigger deal out of it than i did
alleges im the one paying attention to it
and ignores the case attached to it

here's a phil-fink example for comparison

Spoiler:

Look here people: In the past page, we've been over and over this, around in circles. Droog, Thor, Acryon, DCLXVI, and Phil were very clearly never going to vote for Phil. That is a majority of town.

Why is droog in that list. Particularly when there is quoted evidence that that is not true?

Also, please note that Phil seems to think the scummiest thing is changing your opinion. This fits

extremely

well with the narrative of scum-Phil that Thor was disagreeing with me about yesterday. Phil has gone out of his way to avoid changing his vote or his opinion. He's going above and beyond not to do the things that he is most thinking scum would do.

Town should not be concerned with not looking scummy to the point where it impairs their scumhunting. Scum has every reason to act this way.

i think id be okay with philamon. let me read through the thread to confirm my new biases

Here it is again, for those of us who missed it.

fink includes me in a list of players who would not lynch philamon
philamon quotes direct contradictory evidence

fink does not respond
changes conversations
and later repeats the point phil disputed

[droog]

tl;dr

whenever anyone challenges fink's arguments
he changes them

i.e., fink votes me today because he thinks my typo was a forgery
i argue that this interpretation makes no sense

fink does not directly respond
but picks up other reasons for voting me

[SlickWilly]

Looking through the last reads of the people I can confirm as town. I rechecked the votes and realized that Fink hammered Acyron (and was previously YYR), so he has hammered the last two innocents who have died. This has made me hesitant on the droog vote.

if I could decide on the three-player town block that would secure our win if correct, it'd be fink/bert/droog

Townreads Bert/Fink/droog and voted for Phil.

I support a lynch between Thor and Bob now.

Scumreads Thor and Bob, Bob flipped town and immediately voted Thor; then reincarnated as me.

The scummiest person on my wagon besides Thor is probably DCLXVI. If Phil were to be lynched and flip scum, then our last scum is Thor. If he flips town, I think it's Thor and probably Dys or DCLXVI.

Scumreads Thor and DCL (Bert)

People who don't like the Phillammon wagon should explain why - voting for Phillammon is fabulous, everyone who's anyone is doing it.

Last known push was on Phil, who she was confident on being scum.

From my perspective, that confirms my suspicion of Thor, hedges my suspicion of droog, and stirs a suspicion of Bert and Phillammon. So far I have gotten mostly null reads on Shaddowz and Fink....so I need to ISO their posts and dig deeper.

Thor, why would Acyron and Dys's suspicion of you be wrong?
Bert, why would Acryon suspect you and not Bob?
Phill, why would Bob and Blair's suspicion of you be wrong?

[Phillammon]

...because I'm town? That's a really odd question.

[SlickWilly]

Why would they suspect you enough be to their main lynch-target? Were they just wrong and dumb? Was it a conflicting personality or playstyle that gave them the wrong impression of you? Have you played a scummy game and regret some of your comments? You know that you are town (or not), so I want you to assess yourself (unconfirmed townie) as if you were in their shoes (confirmed townies).

Same goes to Thor (in regards to Acyron and Dys's suspicion) and Bert (in regards to Acryon's suspicion and Bob's townread).

[Thor665]

Thor, why would Acyron and Dys's suspicion of you be wrong?

Why would it be right? All you've established is that their thoughts were honest (though in Dys case we functionally only have your word on it - though I am inclined to agree due to my read on her). Whether or not the thoughts were honest does nothing to their accuracy (as proved by my play thus far this game if nothing else )

Acryons' case on me was that I need to 100% at all times vote my top scumread...also, even though I never said that Blair was my top scumread and said stuff to suggest the oppositie - Blair *was* my top scumread and therefore I am scum for not voting her.

I called the case laughable. So did others (including Dys, as long as we're confusing honesty/accuracy) ad Acro basically got lynched *because* of that case. That is why I consider it wrong. It was illogical, incorrect (provably so), and was actually very bad play for town because it was a scum style case.

Do you like that case?

Dys' case on me, to the best of my ability to describe it, was; "Feels" and she didn't like my interaction with Cheetory and she was bothered that I attacked everyone who attacked me.

I can't address feels, I disagreed with her about Cheetory but I think a lot of that depends on whether you think I expected that derp hammer or not, and it is provably incorrect that I attacked everyone who scum read me because she was my strongest town read for quite a while while also being about the only person pushing a case on me. I do not think any of that qualifies as a valid case.

Do you like that case?

[Bert]

@Slick: Acryon was not alive when I replaced in.

[droog]

very bad play for town because it was a scum style case.

what is a scum style case?

[Thor665]

Functionally a case based on misinformation is a scum style case. It should appear functional, but upon review should have holes that are more or less hidden from view - this is then paired with the case maker denying the existence of the holes and it becomes a scum style case.

In Acro's situation - his case was perfectly fine...as long as he could functionally show that I suspected Blair more than wgeurts. I wouldn't have agreed with the case, but it would have been a case. Instead - this vital lynchpin of his case was based on "Thor asked Blair more questions" that was functionally what he hinged it on. He also didn't care about what I said as regards wgeurts nor that I opposed the idea of talking about Blair. For town to ignore those elements to push a tenuous basis for a case? It made it a scum style case - because town should have un-tunneled enough to ask some questions about the new info. If he had he probably wouldn't have been lynched, that he didn't fueled the wagon on him and got him lynched because he looked like scum to people.

[SlickWilly]

@Slick: Acryon was not alive when I replaced in.

Ah, sorry. I'd still like your take on their suspicion of DCL. Was there anything that you would disagree with their assessment that he seemed most likely mafia? You've inherited the spot from DCL/Fokem/Bins, did either three help your readings on the game knowing their alignment?

[quote="In post 1486
I can't address feels, I disagreed with her about Cheetory but I think a lot of that depends on whether you think I expected that derp hammer or not, and it is provably incorrect that I attacked everyone who scum read me because she was my strongest town read for quite a while while also being about the only person pushing a case on me. I do not think any of that qualifies as a valid case.

Acyron and Dys both seemed to go off of feels, as is much of my tunneling on you. Blair's reads on you deteriorated later in her game, I think mostly off of feels as well. I don't think you anticipated the derp-hammer from wgeurts, but I do think putting someone at -1 is a golden zone for scum. I don't really like the case, otherwise, but there is something about parts of it that toy with me.

I think this all comes down to people 'feeling' as if this game is being driven by scum, so your (at least from my perception) spot as townleader sounds an alarm. Without killing roles (and so many mislynches available), scum need to drive the game and appear most townie to outlast lynches. Their only weapon here is that they know the roles. Your confidence comes off as dangerous.

[Bert]

I have no issues with their suspicions on DCL, because he like me prod dodged and made empty promises for the majority of his time in this game.

[Fink]

Sorry, today has been pretty distracting and I'm trying to make a concise but thorough post on Droog. Should be up in a couple hours. Meant to have this done earlier.

But I don't believe I've moved any goalposts or changed my positions and I

do

believe Droog has deliberately misconstrued things I've been saying like

constantly

to give a short version. I'll respond in detail to that stuff later if anyone wants, but I really don't think I ever could have convinced Droog I was town given how he's reacting to me. I don't buy that he was ever seriously trying to engage with me.

I think putting me and Droog in ISO together and reading us from after the Acryon lynch is really the best argument for a Droog vote, but I'll summarize in a bit.

[Fink]

And to say it again, sure, gut-scumread Thor all you want, but putting people at L-1 in the early game is absolutely standard for him as either alignment. That should really not be part of any case.

[droog]

I do believe Droog has deliberately misconstrued things I've been saying like constantly to give a short version.

want to say, less as a player more as a person
youve not convinced me of this
thor has, on two occasions

im not trying to antagonize you unnecessarily

[Fink]

Droog if you are town, I think you've been seriously

seriously

blinded by tunneling on me. Like I get the impression you don't read half of what I respond to you with, but maybe you just don't understand it. But I keep trying to clarify. Thor has convinced you that you've been wrong about things by repeating what I've said.

I think it's more likely that you're scum, but if you're town I don't think the blame is entirely on me.

[droog]

I think you've been seriously seriously blinded by tunneling on me. Like I get the impression you don't read half of what I respond to you with, but maybe you just don't understand it.

wow
what the fuck?

where do you get off telling me im not reading what you're responding to
or that i dont understand it