Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

VC 4.04

Blair (1)-

Thor665

Phillammon (1)-

Dyslexicon

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

Fink (2)-

droog, Phillammon

Dyslexicon (0)-

DCLXVI (1)-

Fink

Not Voting (3)-

Blair, Shaddowez, DCLXVI

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

[droog]

the entire conversation with acryon itches
here's what i mean

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon.

DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think.

Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

fink by contrast spends the rest of the day asking acryon questions to prove,
loudly and in public
that she's doing nothing of the sort

@ Acryon

But you haven't explained thet non-nothing reason for your reads changing at all. You are dangling at the end of a rope here, you should probably do so.

And also, you fail math. Whether or not that makes you townie or scummy, how about you lay off saying things mathematically don't make sense.

remember that exchange about math?
a nice way to rebutt acryon without making an enemy of him
"you're factually wrong" and not "i think you're scummy"

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself. But his very reasonableness as a lynch candidate without any real thing defining that, and the speed with which his wagon took off are what worry me, and I think it's worth questioning him before he dies. I don't see why that's surprising at all. And getting his vote actually onto Phil would give others (you/Droog/adorable kitty roman numeral guy) some more leverage to also queston Phil. I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now.

these are not the words of someone trying to suss out whether aycron is town or scum
she announces interest in lynching acryon
but wants to keep him around and ask him.... what?, exactly?
correct him on his math and ask him why his reads changed?

[droog]

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

memory tells me that phil is more correct here
ill look over fink's phil case otherwise but everything acryon convincing her of phil is suspect

if acryon is scum, she found the teammate!
if acryon is town, phil is even scummier!

[Thor665]

Are you asking me to start attacking the Fink case before seeing Fink do it?
I'll do that for you - I just want to make sure that's your desire.

[droog]

eh, i want to make sure someone's going to read it first
by all means if im saying something stupid/wrong please fix it

would rather see fink's response to anything else

is there something else im better served paying attention to?
im willing to entertain shaddowez

i think we're best served in phil/fink today though

[Thor665]

I'd like to discuss phil/fink vs. DCL/Blair with you, yes.
I'm actually leaning town on Shadow - if he's scum he's flying totally under my radar.
I don't think you're making too many derp-dee-doo moments with the Fink case, but I do think you're dinging him for unfair things, though I also think it is best for you and him to see him respond first. I was quite serious when I said I'd rather take him to lylo than you, I actually find more objectionable in you in how you're pushing this case than in him, but I'd rather sit back and let you feel absolutely confident in what you're saying baout him before I charge into that mess.

[droog]

fair enough

"I'd like to discuss phil/fink vs. DCL/Blair with you, yes."

go on.
i could see scum DCL but i have to reason to suspect scum DCL
blair badly needs a sub

[Fink]

Hey, sorry, I've been unexpectedly swamped this weekend, will be around for a couple hours now though. Droog, I'll read through and comment on all your stuff, but quite frankly when I went away for the night on Friday I was expecting a lot more. Why are you just talking about "from memory" on the me-and-Phil stuff from yesterday. It seems like that should be some important reading?

I am not very happy about DCXwhateverhe'sdeadtome replacing out, it means his mysterious reads and reasons will remain a mystery, and we can't even be sure if he had town or scum intent for delaying or if he just vanished off the face of the internet unrelatedly. I really hope he comes back after the game is over at at least explains what he was thinking, because this is bugging me.

I guess my vote isn't doing any good there at this point, so I'll go back to what I know best:
VOTE: Phil

[Fink]

[quote="In post 924, droog"
thor says that gingers have big dicks
thor then dies his hair red
what do you assume about thor?

phil says that scum do x
phil then does x
what do you assume about phil?[/quote]

I assume that Droog is making a fallacious argument.

Phil, earlier, in a forgetable post, comments on what is good play for scum.
Phil, when undersuspicious plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

I don't think it's worth voting for on it's own, but I think it's another reason to be more sure of my suspicions.

@Droog: If you agree that Phil was doing what he thinks scum do, why

don't

you find that scummy?

[Fink]

observation
dys, 666, and fink all suavely worked themselves up to back acryon's lynch
reads more like they're convincing others than themselves
one is scum

I was convincing myself. And I was showing my thinking. I don't see what's wrong with either of these. We needed a lynch to get moving, Droog, Thor, Shaddowez, and DCXwhatever were voting Acryon. Blair, Acryon, and Phil were opposed to voting Acryon. As I've made clear before, it was obvious a Phil lynch that I most wanted wasn't going through.

Either Dys or I was going to have to vote Acryon or stall the day out. After some reflection, which I posted A LOT about, I decided that he had a better-than-random chance of being scum and was a detriment to town and someone I wouldn't want in LYLO even if he were town.

I stand by my vote. But I don't think it makes any of us three scum.

I'm particularly interested in why you see Roman Numeral Flaker Jerk as "suavely working himself up" for it, given that he was the first vote on the wagon.

And I'd like it if you could point out

why

thinking out loud and deciding to lynch Acryon is scummy, rather than just having you apply weasel word adjectives without any analysis or discussion of specific posts.

[droog]

Phil,

when undersuspicious

plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

ideas and actions are different
most players here believe inactivity hurts town. and yet.

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

p-edit; will respond

[droog]

observation
dys, 666, and fink all suavely worked themselves up to back acryon's lynch
reads more like they're convincing others than themselves
one is scum

I was convincing myself. And I was showing my thinking. I don't see what's wrong with either of these. We needed a lynch to get moving, Droog, Thor, Shaddowez, and DCXwhatever were voting Acryon. Blair, Acryon, and Phil were opposed to voting Acryon. As I've made clear before, it was obvious a Phil lynch that I most wanted wasn't going through.

Either Dys or I was going to have to vote Acryon or stall the day out. After some reflection, which I posted A LOT about, I decided that he had a better-than-random chance of being scum and was a detriment to town and someone I wouldn't want in LYLO even if he were town.

I stand by my vote. But I don't think it makes any of us three scum.

I'm particularly interested in why you see Roman Numeral Flaker Jerk as "suavely working himself up" for it, given that he was the first vote on the wagon.

And I'd like it if you could point out

why

thinking out loud and deciding to lynch Acryon is scummy

, rather than just

having you apply weasel word adjectives

without any analysis or discussion of specific posts.

now you're manipulating my words
you realize you're being dramatic right?

thought is fine. i think *your thought* is aimed at convincing everyone else that you're scumhunting
not at actually scumhunting

((everything i meant in the word 'suave' is contained in the sentence below it:
"reads more like they're convincing others than themselves"

and 'worked themselves up' does not imply anything about chronology))

[Fink]

Do a quick Ctrl-F over Fink's ISO for Acryon. First mention is that Acryon is slightly scummy (from the first 10 pages alone) (#461), which is immediately revised to "dumb but probably town" (#480). There's then no significant mention of Acryon until #721, by which time, surprise surprise, Acryon is at L-1 (and has been for some time). At which point Fink immediately starts to turn on this previous town-read in the very next post-

i agree

It's almost like I started looking seriously at lynching Acryon only after it started looking like Phil wasn't going to be the lynch and the Acryon wagon needed a few more votes. We needed a lynch to get things moving and get some more information. When it started looking like Acryon was the most likely wagon, I started seriously looking at the pros and cons of voting for him. How terrible of me!

It's too bad I never explained my reasoning before now...

Oh wait, my overabundance of reasoning is what I was accused of in the previous post. You can't have it both ways.

[Fink]

@ Droog

i'm curious why you're unwilling to even read my posts then.

???????

SIGH.

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

i have a short attention span
please explain the lie

In the

very next

post, BEFORE Droog wanted clarification

Actually, I should clarify that.

Phil is choosing to try to get the person most interested in lynching him lynched, rather than trying to figure out the person most likely to be scum. Since scum don't have night kills, this is the only way to get someone off their back.

Right. I need to go off briefly, but when I return, I'm gonna take a close look at people who changed their mind about Acryon when the wagon started gaining steam. I suspect we will find something VERY interesting in those last few votes.

You can already see in this quote, he's made up his mind. He doesn't say "people on the wagon" he says "people who changed their mind." I'm the one who most obviously talked about changing their mind.
[quote="In post 836
Now, I can appreciate this may well be a "he's at L-1, may as well question him properly" sort of thing- but if that's the case, why not put similar pressure on the person who you've repeatedly stated to be your top scumread, who was also "effectively" at L-1?

I thought Acryon made it

perfectly

clear that he wasn't going to vote for Phil. So Phil was never "effectively" at L-1. Phil was at L-2 plain and simple, and I held off more than long enough and argued with Acryon MUCH more than enough about this. This does speak to Phil's sincerity about not being willing to hammer Acryon (as he claimed he wouldn't).

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

Again, Droog, Thor, XCLVI-whatever, had already made it clear they wouldn't vote for Phil yesterday. The only other person on the Acryon wagon was Shaddowez, who wouldn't have been enough to lynch. It takes 5 to lynch. There were 3 of us on the wagon and 5 openly not willing to vote for Phil, and Shaddowez. That lynch was not happening.

The point: Phil is stretching here. He's not looking at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. From his first post it's clear he

never intends

to look at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. He's stretching hard for reasons to find me scummy. Town would be honestly concerned with finding scum. Scum would be concerned with getting the biggest advocate of their lynching off their back. Phil is behaving like scum.

[/quote]

[Fink]

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

At no point did I say this, he most certainly was, at least from Blair, Dys, and me.

[Fink]

"Sauve" is a loaded word.

I'm not being dramatic, using language like that without actual examples bothers me. It's banned on Wikipedia for a reason.

I think I explained my thought process very well, I'd like you to show us where you think it was faked, rather than asserting that it was only by use of slimy adjectives.

[Fink]

It's also worth pointing out that during the math debacle, I lost my exact numbers, because I decided at the time this was worthless and only liable to sidetrack things more, but 2/8 means a random person has a 25% chance of being scum.

So Phil, my most strongest scum read, I put at like 50% chance, why Dys, my strongest town read, I still give 5% chance of being scum. I came up with some rough numbers that day, and I had Acryon at like 35% chance.

I was not sold on him being scum, but I thought his odds of being scum were better than average, and again, now he can't be in LYLO. I don't think he'd have been any use to town. We only gain new information from new lynches, someone had to cast the last vote, that someone was me.

Do you find me scummier for having cast the last vote? If so, why?

[Fink]

@Droog: You found Phil scummy yesterday but not enough to vote for him. Do you think he's towny now? You still haven't commented on most of yesterdays Phil-related thoughts.

[Fink]

@Everyone else
What do you think of Droog's case on me?

And with that, I'm out for the night. Tomorrow should be less a flurry of posts and hopefully more of a slow trickle.

[Thor665]

i could see scum DCL but i have to reason to suspect scum DCL
blair badly needs a sub

Okay, if you can see scum DCL (though I don't know what it means to say that then you don't - you either suspect the slot or you don't, yeah? This is kinda of doublespeak - clarify your thought next time you're through)

That said, working under the concept that you're aware DCL doesn't look particularly townish - what shoves so many players into the queue before that slot in your mind?

Also, saying Blair needs a replacement is an empty comment - the question is why do you appear to have zero interest in pushing Blair without being willing to tell me you town read the slot?

I have both of those slots pegged as scummier than Fink or Phil.
Let's try to go bullet point;

• Blair is scum for choosing to always argue semantics rather than motive, using a double standard and, even after being caught doing so, just trying to act like it was okay even though she had no supportable reasoning for choosing to enact the double standard, and also for the awkward setup as concerns Dys (vis a vi the 'lynch me if she's scum comment)
  

I think any one of those items is at least worthy of suspicion, I think the full set of them is worthy of a lynch.

Could you present a counter to those points/explanation for why she's not on your lynch radar, and then provide me a similarly presented scum case on your prime scumspect (I presume this is Fink). I don't want a large wall, I want the core kernel of the scumtells like I did with Blair.

@Everyone else
What do you think of Droog's case on me?

I have already answered this, but the basic gist is 'not particularly sold'.

[Thor665]

v/la - Oct 14-19

I will probably be around, I hope. But potentially sporadic, so v/la is being declared.

[Fink]

we have five mislynches left

i would rather have five mislynches than six with someone who will quickhammer

I am not in any way opposed to wgeurts policy lynch.

These two posts from the two scumreading me are bothering me. A big part of the argument seems to be predicated on the notion that I shouldn't have voted for Acryon if Phil was my top scum read, especially because part of my reasoning on Acryon was that if he was town, it was no big loss (although as I said, I thought he had better-than-random chances of being scum).

But both of these two have taken such a position before. Something they are saying makes me scummy. I think this double-standard smells of scum over-sensitiveness to things they are feeling guilty about, and/or pushing a case they don't believe in.

At this point I'm moving Droog to a scum read, but Phil is still my preferred lynch of the two.

[droog]

big part of the argument seems to be predicated on the notion that I shouldn't have voted for Acryon if Phil was my top scum read,

?????
i do not have time to address the rest right now but
where did i say this

((if i did say this i deserve a big "??????"))

[Fink]

big part of the argument seems to be predicated on the notion that I shouldn't have voted for Acryon if Phil was my top scum read,

?????
i do not have time to address the rest right now but
where did i say this

((if i did say this i deserve a big "??????"))

That's certainly how I took "working himself up to vote Acryon."

If it wasn't that, then perhaps you could clarify why you think my vote was scummy. Specifically.

Also, you keep saying I'm not scumhunting, but why don't my repeated rereads and comments and cases on Phil, or my questioning of Blair count?

And don't you see that Acryon

looked

scummier, AND more clearly identified himself as uninterested in helping town during my questioning? It's almost as if I decided to vote for him based on my questioning. Why do you think it was useless?

[droog]

If it wasn't that, then perhaps you could clarify why you think my vote was scummy. Specifically.

"i will convince myself that acryon is scum"
"i will convince everyone else that i think acryon is scum"

i am accusing you of the latter
which would come from scum motivation

it is not that you should have voted for someone else
or that i disagree with your reasons
or that i think the acryon lynch was a poor one

i think you are more interested in showing that you are scumhunting
"look at me im scumhunting"
then actually scumhunting
this is directly related to my thinking some of your questions to acryon were uselesss

(i wil not get back to any reply you make for a while))