Open 580: Tit For Tat - Game Over!

[Shinobi]

Heading back to work.

One last thought: how is it that Nether is totally up-in-arms about me meta'ing people as town, in yet wants to policy lynch me because of it? If that's the case, why doesn't he want to policy lynch Mala for the same thing because

that's literally all she does.

Instead, he reads her as town because she always metas, but wants to lynch me because I'm relying on meta.

???

[Bulbazak]

And I indeed think that Xayzeck's slot has way higher chance to flip scum.

Why?

I don't see how being a newbie justifies mistaking your reads on two people in two almost consequent posts.
The only possible reason for that is he was faking his reads.

Also I don't see how being a newbie allows you to do scummy things.

This is so far the most scummy looking slot.
Shinobi being the second and acryon the third.

I'm actually starting to agree with the assessment that Spitfire was lynch bait. In fact, if I wasn't so gung-ho about it, I probably should have noticed it near the tail end of his posting, which was actually kinda good.

Bulbazak - Town - The thing I dislike most about his slot is how he pushes Luca. I don't know Luca well, so to me it just looks like he pulling this read out of thin air. I'd like to say that he isn't giving Luca a chance, but Luca is lurk. Other than that though, I like his posts.

I've modded enough of town Luca to know something is off.

This is so far the most scummy looking slot.
Shinobi being the second and acryon the third.

I still don't get why this slot is scummy at all.

You can't just sweep your predecessor's actions under the rug and pretend they didn't happen. Newb scum could be replaced by experienced scum who knows how to talk his way out of a tough spot. That doesn't make the earlier actions any less scummy.

Pedit: ninja'd

I don't think that's what he's doing at all.

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

First, point out where Xayzeck is defending Shinobi that is not calling him a townread. Second, explain to me how questioning somebody is defending a player and scummy.

Faking reads served the purpose to appear doing something useful while not really doing it.
I don't see any town motivation behind posting random reads and changing them within few posts. I can't recall any townie forgetting the reads they had 3 posts ago.

Speaking of his reasons for suspecting TSO.
I was talking about this:
1. In #103 he says that TSO is scum because he participated in the joke.
2. In #104 he's being asked by Aquanim "what makes TSO different from the rest?"
3. In #105 he says that the difference is

TSO was the starter of the joke

.
4. In #106 Aquanim asks him what's his "reason for thinking that that makes him scum".
5. In #107 he states that his reason is basically

TSO did nothing except participating in the joke

.

Do you see the difference between his reasoning in his consequent posts #105 and #107 ?
He's not only changing his reads rapidly, he's also changing the reasons of his reads. The only sane explanation for that is him forging his reads and reasons for them and forgetting them fast.

I'm really not seeing the sudden change in reads you're professing. It looks like a fairly simple progression to me. He was asked why he thought TSO was scummy. He replied that he initiated the exchange. He was asked for further reasoning why that excluded Nether and Mala, and he contrasted TSO's later behavior to the other two. I don't see the supposed disconnect here.

Some are a little easier to explain than others. I skimmed quite a few walls in this game, mostly Tempest's, simply because:

So, no actual scumreads? That's suspicious, too.

I don't think he was saying anything like that at all. In fact, he later gives his scum reads, and is very clear on them. You're just looking for reasons to justify your push now.

Anyone else find it fishy that Acryon is v/la until exactly after the deadline is over? He's basically parked on this unfounded Dave wagon that no one will defend. He's a wasted vote that won't go to helping us lynch scum today.

You're stretching now.

I'm good with lynching Luca, Acryon, Nether, or Pasch. I'm willing to compromise on Dave, but I'd prefer not to. Anyone else I will not vote for. I'll place my final vote before I go to sleep tonight.

[davesaz]

Dave's associative read genuinely makes no sense to me because I thought my first wall was okay, but a bunch of people have ignored it as well.

They can't all be mafia. Something is wrong here.

Yes, there was a wall, but I didn't see you really pursuing it. A couple of real posts and a lot of one liners. Later on you posted the read list that I quoted.

479 (Wed 11pm) I notice you have a scum read (Pasch) but have not pursued
496 (Thu 730am) I vote you for it
511 (Thu 820am) You voted Pasch for "saying my stuff is shady without elaborating on why", which is incredibly flimsy
you post some inconsequential posts
I post a whole bunch of stuff defending my read and trying to advance it
your recent burst of activity

The meta difference is that you didn't fade away the previous game. You and uctriton got into a huge tunnel and you remained active the whole game. This game you have thrown out a couple of scum reads and votes, but haven't done anything significant to pursue them. Surely the difference in approach is obvious. You haven't jumped on me for failing to see your point against Pasch, and you certainly haven't jumped on him for not seeing it (the point of the triton wall).

On the associative, clearly it's only interesting if you're scum. Assuming you are, two people are defending you; one of them might be scum but I doubt both are. The opposite doesn't follow, of course. I'm not saying you're scum because they're defending you scummily. That makes no sense at all. If I didn't have a reason to scum read you, then it's not going to spring up magically because you're being defended.

[Shinobi]

Okay, I can kind of see where you're coming from.

Fwiw, I still disappeared for the majority of day 1 and completely stopped paying attention until later day 2.

As for your point on my point on Pasch being flimsy, the people who call me scum for bullshit reasons/nonreasons are usually scum. I don't need a giant wall to say "he is making stuff up" and quote a bunch of timestamps because none of that is necessary. Pasch said I was scummy for no reason and then harped on meaningless semantics. That's basically it.

Leaving for reals now, prbs.

[davesaz]

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

First, point out where Xayzeck is defending Shinobi that is not calling him a townread. Second, explain to me how questioning somebody is defending a player and scummy.

I don't get the relevance of being a townread to defending. Sure, defending a scum read would be a lot worse than defending a null or town read, but defending is defending. As to defending being scummy, it's useful only in association. Clearly the association itself can't be pursued without first flipping one of them scum. I find it useful to make note of it at the point in time it's detected. This yields reactions to the association, and you can monitor the interaction after that point to see if it changes.

I'm good with lynching Luca, Acryon, Nether, or Pasch. I'm willing to compromise on Dave, but I'd prefer not to. Anyone else I will not vote for. I'll place my final vote before I go to sleep tonight.

Four scum reads eh? Which one or two do you feel the most confident about? I have a reason to be probing at Shinobi, but that doesn't mean he's my only scum read, or that it won't change.

[Bulbazak]

Dave, calling someone a town read is not defending. Questioning someone is not defending. You didn't answer my questions. You need to show me where Xayzeck is defending Shinobi, not where he's calling him town or a town read. Second, you need to explain how questioning somebody is defending a player and also scummy.

As for my reads, Luca and Acryon are straight up scum reads. I've also been liking Nether and Pasch less and less, because their logic and motivation just isn't lining up.

[Netherspite]

I'm not townreading Mala really. More like null. Because she's hard to read. I learned that in my first game there and not going to do the same mistake again and scumread her just for her low activity D1.
I'm going to get back to her slot at D2.

Regarding your slot, I never said "he's townreading people because of meta only. lets lynch him!".
I said that you're my second top suspect and this suspicion comes not only because you're using meta only to read people.

PEdit:

@Bulbazak

You seem to be not seeing obviously scummy things as scummy.
That's your opinion and your point of view.
Also, no, his posts were not expressing the genuine progression of his reads. More like forgetting his own reasons for suspecting people or finding the first forged reason not good enough and changing it to another.
He was separating TSO from the others for being the starter of the joke in the first post and for not doing anything else in the next. These reasons are not the same reason.
Besides that, you seem to completely ignore the fact he stated two people as "town" and "half town" and completely inversed in the following post. That's not forgetting his reads? Please...

You also do see Luca as scum just because of the Holy Meta Argument. Not really useful for the town.

If we're to lynch people based on the Holy Meta Argument only then we can basically solve all games within first pages and always win.
I highly doubt this is the way to play this game.

===

Luca/Pasch are not good lynch candidates for today.

Just because they didn't do anything really scummy in this game and I don't see them likely to flip scum.
Kinda bad idea to prefer them over someone who are forging reads or someone who attempts to look more useful after seeing the threat of the lynch for being useless.

If you strictly want to lynch some of your list and no one else I'd rather suggest acryon or me (acryon for the higher chance to flip scum and me so people will learn that all of my reads are coming from the town perspective).

[Netherspite]

First part of the post is directed to Shinobi.

[Bulbazak]

You seem to be not seeing obviously scummy things as scummy.

They're not obviously scummy, just surface scummy.

Also, no, his posts were not expressing the genuine progression of his reads. More like forgetting his own reasons for suspecting people or finding the first forged reason not good enough and changing it to another.
He was separating TSO from the others for being the starter of the joke in the first post and for not doing anything else in the next. These reasons are not the same reason.

I don't see how those two reasons can't exist simultaneously.

Besides that, you seem to completely ignore the fact he stated two people as "town" and "half town" and completely inversed in the following post. That's not forgetting his reads? Please...

He said "agree" and "half-agree". He's talking about someone else's points or reads. That's not compatible with actual reads, and even if so, I don't see why it's scummy for his reads to fluctuate.

If we're to lynch people based on the Holy Meta Argument only then we can basically solve all games within first pages and always win.
I highly doubt this is the way to play this game.

It's good for sorting people in the early game and is way more useful than you think.

Luca/Pasch are not good lynch candidates for today.

Just because they didn't do anything really scummy in this game and I don't see them likely to flip scum.

You don't think Pasch's non-pushing of suspects, going after easy pushes, and forcing behavior to fit a read so that he can justify his position is scummy?

[Netherspite]

He said "agree" and "half-agree" in response to the post where those players are called "town".
Thus, he is calling them "town" and "half-town" and then vice-versa.

I didn't like few bits in Pasch's posts, but overall thought process in relation to his suspects looked genuine for me.
If he's going after easy pushes he should've waited for the more easy ones instead of sheeping.

Regarding your meta-reads.
I bet that in the end of the game most of your meta-reads will appear wrong. We'll see.

[davesaz]

Dave, calling someone a town read is not defending. Questioning someone is not defending. You didn't answer my questions. You need to show me where Xayzeck is defending Shinobi, not where he's calling him town or a town read. Second, you need to explain how questioning somebody is defending a player and also scummy.

I don't think I want to go down a rathole of disagreements on what defending means. Semantics are not useful here. I'm describing what could be an association, which is useful only if Shinobi turns up scum. Whether the term I use for what I'm seeing agrees with how you use the term is immaterial at this time.

As for my reads, Luca and Acryon are straight up scum reads. I've also been liking Nether and Pasch less and less, because their logic and motivation just isn't lining up.

I'd have to scan back through the thread to find this, but scum reads on Acryon from (someone) were giving me the jitters because of pressure of the form "Player A pressures Player B to give a read on Player C".

Now I expect you to say "why does that bother you", to which I'll reply "I've seen scum do that", and your reply might be ' "I've seen x before" statements are useless'. Or was that someone else in a different place? Anyway, I don't know if I like Acryon for a lynch unless that remembered uneasiness has been relieved.

Luca I can see. You won't find me trying to talk you out of it. Likewise Pasch, who is my 2nd strongest scum read and the player I'd push after Shinobi. Nether not so much, I see more misguided than scum, but it could be that he's a little harder to see as scum with the greater volume.

[T S O]

I dislike how Pasch and Nether haven't initiated an interaction with me.

TSO too but he hasn't talked to anyone so

@Pasch/Nether: Why is my slot scum?

Happily, that time is over.

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

Nope, have no idea what you're going for here at all. Really, this is incredibly tenuous.

[T S O]

Also, I haven't read much. Still love ya'll though.

[davesaz]

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

Nope, have no idea what you're going for here at all. Really, this is incredibly tenuous.

So, for bonus points what do you think it really was?

[Paschendale]

As for your point on my point on Pasch being flimsy, the people who call me scum for bullshit reasons/nonreasons are usually scum. I don't need a giant wall to say "he is making stuff up" and quote a bunch of timestamps because none of that is necessary. Pasch said I was scummy for no reason and then harped on meaningless semantics. That's basically it.

You being in denial about the reasons doesn't mean they don't exist.

Dave, calling someone a town read is not defending. Questioning someone is not defending. You didn't answer my questions. You need to show me where Xayzeck is defending Shinobi, not where he's calling him town or a town read. Second, you need to explain how questioning somebody is defending a player and also scummy.

This is the closest thing I've seen so far to a case on Dave.

As for my reads, Luca and Acryon are straight up scum reads. I've also been liking Nether and Pasch less and less, because their logic and motivation just isn't lining up.

You could, you know, ask me about my logic. Not seeing Luca, though, and most of what you offer is meta related... so not exactly clamoring to join that cause.

You don't think Pasch's non-pushing of suspects, going after easy pushes, and forcing behavior to fit a read so that he can justify his position is scummy?

They're only easy now because I pushed them before. Again, you're only after me because I got quiet over the last few days.

[T S O]

You calling them the scumteam. But then again, you kinda row back on that one, so the post was basically useless.

[Aquanim]

I'm good with lynching Luca, Acryon, Nether, or Pasch. I'm willing to compromise on Dave, but I'd prefer not to. Anyone else I will not vote for. I'll place my final vote before I go to sleep tonight.

I don't think I'd vote for Nether, would vote for Shinobi. Dave would be a lynch of truly last resort. Besides that we're mostly on the same page.

Can I get your thoughts on the talk Paschendale and I have been having after my vote for him?

In partiuclar, you obviously don't think a scumread on Pasch is entirely baseless; do you think his reaction (essentially, that I'm either insane or scum) could be warranted from his point of view?

[Aquanim]

...
I didn't like few bits in Pasch's posts, but overall thought process in relation to his suspects looked genuine for me.
If he's going after easy pushes he should've waited for the more easy ones instead of sheeping.
...

If you could, look through Paschendale's ISO for me and tell me what you find that you would describe as "attempting to convince anyone else to lynch someone Paschendale wants to lynch".

[Bulbazak]

Can I get your thoughts on the talk Paschendale and I have been having after my vote for him?

In partiuclar, you obviously don't think a scumread on Pasch is entirely baseless; do you think his reaction (essentially, that I'm either insane or scum) could be warranted from his point of view?

I think your RVS point was bad, but all your other observations are quite solid. I could buy Pasch-town thinking that he had the game shored up if the status quo hadn't changed in the way it had, but given Spitfire's last posts, replace out, and then Xayzeck's solid posting, Pasch holding the same line doesn't make as much sense coming from a town perspective. I also dislike his saying that you're not addressing his points and questions, and then refusing to quote them or reiterate them when asked. It reads like stalling, and his subsequent accusation that you're lying and either dumb or scum reads extremely defensive.

[Aquanim]

Whether I like it or not I don't think Shinobi is happening today. Hopefully he steps up his game going forward.

UNVOTE: Shinobi
VOTE: Paschendale

[Paschendale]

I think your RVS point was bad, but all your other observations are quite solid. I could buy Pasch-town thinking that he had the game shored up if the status quo hadn't changed in the way it had, but given Spitfire's last posts, replace out, and then Xayzeck's solid posting, Pasch holding the same line doesn't make as much sense coming from a town perspective. I also dislike his saying that you're not addressing his points and questions, and then refusing to quote them or reiterate them when asked. It reads like stalling, and his subsequent accusation that you're lying and either dumb or scum reads extremely defensive.

I don't know how you can describe Xayzeck's posting as "solid".

And of course I'm defensive. I'm facing attacks completely predicated on lies. What do you expect me to do, just ignore it?

[Aquanim]

What do you think my motivation would be to deliberately lie about my opinion of your posts, Paschendale?

Also, for the record, neither Nether nor Bulbazak seems to agree with your assessment of my argument.

[Malakittens]

Here later, but Xay did move into a town read. This is definitely his town play boys and girls~

[Aquanim]

Here later, but Xay did move into a town read. This is definitely his town play boys and girls~

That's nice. Would you care to explain that read this time, or should I file it where I did the last one?

[Malakittens]

No clue where you filed the last one under. Read is based off meta experience with Xay and his scum game is pretty transparent from his town game. He's actually giving his thoughts and his reads are pretty much making him an open book whereas his scum play he tends to try to leave himself an opening in case he gets in a jam.