Mini 1652: Sweet Dreams - Game Over!

[West9]

bji, are you able to confirm that he tried to neighborize Lapsa night 1?

[bji]

bji, are you able to confirm that he tried to neighborize Lapsa night 1?

No, I cannot. All I see in the neighborizer thread is Cheetory6 announcing the thread with post 0, and then Ari lamenting that there is no one to talk to, until an announcement by Cheetory6 that I am in the neighborhood. There is no mention of Lapsa or any other neighborizer action, but I don't think that is proof of anything as that's exactly what I would expect had Ari really tried to neighborize a doomed Lapsa.

[bji]

Oh I don't know if it's relevant but Cheetory6 did make another post shortly after the Day 2 began. It doesn't have any real content and I don't understand exactly what it means. It's just a short little thing that looks maybe like a textual smiley. I am hesitant to quote anything because I think that's against the rules. I'm not entirely sure that I'm within the bounds of the rules as I describe the thread anyway and it's making me a little uncomfortable.

[bji]

West, why are you voting texcat? OMGUS or something more?

I'm going to make my vote here. I was hoping to hear from ChaosOmega first, just to see if it would make me any more or less confident, but whatever. Still plenty of time to hear his reasoning for why the Pea Brain slot isn't scum.

VOTE: ChaosOmega

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK, so Ari is now confirmed to able to neighbourise. Would we be able to get a quick massclaim today?

Let's tackle my {bji, texcat, Ari} list anyway. I was dealing with the Pisskop wagon from all the way back in Day 1. There were seven players on the early Pisskop wagon. Three have flipped town. I believed there was a good chance one of the others scum, particularly since SW went after Lapsa on the wagon rather than one of the scummier votes on the wagon.

I think I'll remove Ari for the time being. Now he's proved his neighbouriser, it's removed one little worry from the back of my mind.

Bji, can I get a ChaosOmega case. Just the main points will do, I don't want a lengthy pbpa, just something I can read in a reasonable time frame. Also:

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

I'm still waiting on this.

@Texcat,

have you played with Johnny before? Who else in the game are you familiar with?

[texcat]

I know I've played with Pisskop, Titus, SW, Aeronaut. I don't remember playing with anyone else.

How on earth did you come up with that list? I'll never be able to compete with bji or Ari.

[VictorDeAngelo]

How on earth did you come up with that list? I'll never be able to compete with bji or Ari.

Let's tackle my {bji, texcat, Ari} list anyway. I was dealing with the Pisskop wagon from all the way back in Day 1. There were seven players on the early Pisskop wagon. Three have flipped town. I believed there was a good chance one of the others scum, particularly since SW went after Lapsa on the wagon rather than one of the scummier votes on the wagon.

[texcat]

A good chance? I can tell you that you are going down a rabbit hole. Limiting your search for scum to those that voted for the first early wagon does not seem like a wise thing to do. But forge ahead.

I will say that I thought my(Aeronaut's) vote on Pisskop was justified with reasons, and pretty decent reasons for an early D1 vote.

[Aristophanes]

Bji, you can't quote, but can talk about what is in the thread there.

Painting a friend's new apartment today, will post tn

[VictorDeAngelo]

A good chance? I can tell you that you are going down a rabbit hole. Limiting your search for scum to those that voted for the first early wagon does not seem like a wise thing to do. But forge ahead.

Really, so you think I'm wasting my time thinking that at least one person the wagon is scum. Why are you sure scum would have avoided the wagon?

I will say that I thought my(Aeronaut's) vote on Pisskop was justified with reasons, and pretty decent reasons for an early D1 vote.

Well I didn't expect you to say that Aero was the scum in the group. Why don't you talk to me about the other two names on the list?

[texcat]

I have. Ari's role is confirmed. I don't expect it to be a scum role. Bji was the driving force on the SW lynch. I don't think a scum Bji would have bussed that hard, especially considering the TMJ liability on the team.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have Ari as conftown now. The way TMJ tried to get his lynch through after he claimed pretty much confirms him. I'm not so convinced by BJI. That said I dug up Aero's post and the reasons for the Pisskop vote:

Hey guys, catching up~

Tell me more about your inability to play without spoonfed data; as well as your need to tell us about it.

This is forced and overly aggressive, and you know it.

*snip*

Lol at trying to scumread somebody for being aggressive.

Well the multiple question marks and exclamation points at the end were intended to be the giveaway. Also the idea that someone would really believe that they don't know how to play just because there is no matrix to look at was, I thought, by itself obviously tongue in cheek.

Maybe I'm just humorless today. Been stressful now that it decided to rain ontop of the monthlong snow. Its a swamp out there, if snow was mud.

These two posts in conjunction make me think Pisskop is scum. See, you're trying to make a joke / discredit people who are scum reading you for your ridiculous push, and then in the next post, you're retracting and almost apologizing for it. It's like you realized people were going to call you out, acknowledged it, and then immediately stopped doing it so you could try something else.

VOTE: Pisskop

Don't seem that great to me. If anything it feels a little more like scum trying to overjustify. I think I'm good with your vote now.

VOTE: Texcat

[bji]

Bji, can I get a ChaosOmega case. Just the main points will do, I don't want a lengthy pbpa, just something I can read in a reasonable time frame.

Mostly the case is based on SW/PB interactions. The fact that PB chose to multiple-vote SW straight out of the gate, and the fact that PB always returned to a vote on SW with little or no justification any time there was a wagon in her direction is suspicious to me. I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

A much lesser, and kind of weak I admit, reason is the fact that ChaosOmega hammered TMJ, and also the way that it felt like ChaosOmega gave TMJ too much time to try to weasel out of the wagon. In my very limited experience of 2 prior games, scum hammered 4 out of 5 times. So I view the hammer vote with some built in suspicion. And in all cases, the vote looked similar, with a "I'll announce my intention to hammer and then give it some time so that everyone knows that I'm not a scum eager to complete the lynch" period at the end right before the hammer. Note that Pea Brain was the hammer of Titus, and ChaosOmega was the hammer of TMJ. Both hammers came from the same slot. Suspicious.

Hope that wasn't too long.

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

When I read posts 1074 and 1081, I got a strong feeling like this is exactly the kind of opening I would expect to see from two scum who had discussed the best way to change TMJ's standing within the game. As if the Night 1 discussion had been something like:

VDA: Hey TMJ, you're not playing aggressively enough, you're going to get lynched as a lurker who does weird stuff
TMJ: What should I do?
VDA: Let's play off of the interaction we had at the end of Day 1. You come after me for that exchange, and we'll get a little bus going. I'll even explain my vote by accusing your scumbuddy of telling you to be more aggressive, which will be true because I did! No one will guess that I'm telling the truth! har har!

Well that's what I read into that exchange. The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2, when he was one of the least interesting participants in Day 1, all because of a weird interaction at the end of Day 1 that looked a lot like a set-up for further interaction, well the whole thing just smelled bad.

Now I also found it weird that in post 1082 you felt a need to further clarify a position to TMJ like that. When someone makes a follow on post like that it's clear that they've been thinking about whether or not their last post left the impression that they intended it to leave. Why so worried about how TMJ is going to understand your position? I think it's unlikely that you cared whether or not TMJ really understood your actions. That post 1082 was for the benefit of everyone else. Why would it be so worth explaining your position to that degree to everyone else? Nervous perhaps that a not-well-explained bus on TMJ would be suspicious?

Then post 1084 is just admitting that the justification for your vote is basically OMGUS. "after that vote at the start of the day" (on me) "I'm happy to keep pressure on him". That reads like justifying a bus to me.

Most of my concerns about you are based on SW interaction, where you could be the other choice for "scum buddy who frustrated SW". But I think Pea Brain is a much better choice for that. Also I believe that your assertion that there was something scummy about how I handled our back-and-forth walls is disingenous; I think it's trumped-up as a form of counterattack. That's just how I see it knowing that my actions were not scummy.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Bji, can I get a ChaosOmega case. Just the main points will do, I don't want a lengthy pbpa, just something I can read in a reasonable time frame.

Mostly the case is based on SW/PB interactions. The fact that PB chose to multiple-vote SW straight out of the gate, and the fact that PB always returned to a vote on SW with little or no justification any time there was a wagon in her direction is suspicious to me.

If SW was town, this would be suspicious. But I find myself constantly wondering as why multiple people in this game think that the act of voting scum is scummy.

I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

It's a theory, one that I'm not sure holds a lot of weight, and I certainly would let guide a lynch.

A much lesser, and kind of weak I admit, reason is the fact that ChaosOmega hammered TMJ, and also the way that it felt like ChaosOmega gave TMJ too much time to try to weasel out of the wagon. In my very limited experience of 2 prior games, scum hammered 4 out of 5 times. So I view the hammer vote with some built in suspicion. And in all cases, the vote looked similar, with a "I'll announce my intention to hammer and then give it some time so that everyone knows that I'm not a scum eager to complete the lynch" period at the end right before the hammer. Note that Pea Brain was the hammer of Titus, and ChaosOmega was the hammer of TMJ. Both hammers came from the same slot. Suspicious.

This is how people hammer. There's literally nothing odd about it at all.

Hope that wasn't too long.

No, this is the sort length you should aim for more often.

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

When I read posts 1074 and 1081, I got a strong feeling like this is exactly the kind of opening I would expect to see from two scum who had discussed the best way to change TMJ's standing within the game. As if the Night 1 discussion had been something like:

VDA: Hey TMJ, you're not playing aggressively enough, you're going to get lynched as a lurker who does weird stuff
TMJ: What should I do?
VDA: Let's play off of the interaction we had at the end of Day 1. You come after me for that exchange, and we'll get a little bus going. I'll even explain my vote by accusing your scumbuddy of telling you to be more aggressive, which will be true because I did! No one will guess that I'm telling the truth! har har![/quote]

Yep, because scum go to the scumchat the first order of business is working out how to get other lynched.

Well that's what I read into that exchange. The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2, when he was one of the least interesting participants in Day 1, all because of a weird interaction at the end of Day 1 that looked a lot like a set-up for further interaction, well the whole thing just smelled bad.

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

Now I also found it weird that in post 1082 you felt a need to further clarify a position to TMJ like that. When someone makes a follow on post like that it's clear that they've been thinking about whether or not their last post left the impression that they intended it to leave. Why so worried about how TMJ is going to understand your position? I think it's unlikely that you cared whether or not TMJ really understood your actions. That post 1082 was for the benefit of everyone else. Why would it be so worth explaining your position to that degree to everyone else? Nervous perhaps that a not-well-explained bus on TMJ would be suspicious?

It was for everyone else. The clearer I make my case, the better the chances of a TMJ lynch.

Then post 1084 is just admitting that the justification for your vote is basically OMGUS. "after that vote at the start of the day" (on me) "I'm happy to keep pressure on him". That reads like justifying a bus to me.

Considering I was voting TMJ long before he was voting me, OMGUS doesn't apply here. I don't see why keeping pressure on a player = bus either.

Most of my concerns about you are based on SW interaction, where you could be the other choice for "scum buddy who frustrated SW". But I think Pea Brain is a much better choice for that. Also I believe that your assertion that there was something scummy about how I handled our back-and-forth walls is disingenous; I think it's trumped-up as a form of counterattack. That's just how I see it knowing that my actions were not scummy.

If you want me to go over my issues with your posts again, I'll wall at you to your hearts content. But frankly even to a newbie my concerns should be clear.

The thing that worries me about you, with both the read on Chaos and me, is that you seem desperate to paint votes as bussing when there's really no justifiable reason why they would be. It's possible you just don't know what a bus looks like I guess. If I'm wrong on Tex, I might come back to you.

[bji]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

I don't think anyone except you thought that TMJ was such obvious scum. You gave some evidence against TMJ in post 915 but as far as I am concerned only (c) is even remotely convincing. The rest of it is all basically just statements about why TMJ would be a good policy lynch, not reasons for why he'd be scum.

Can you explain why, if TMJ was such obvious scum, you weren't trying that hard to convince anyone else? Let's just take at what your feelings about TMJ were:

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Wow, I keep forgetting your in this game.

Any chance of some content before the day ends?

For instance, what are your thoughs on the Ari wagon and the people on it?

So you kept forgetting that obvious scum was in the game?

A while later you chose to focus on the fact that TMJ was continuing to not post as a reason for voting him. Total policy lynch as far as I can tell:

Its work hour here. Gonna reply in a few hours.

Your few hours have come and passed.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TMJ

Then comes post 915 (which I wil not quote here in the interests of brevity, please follow the link earlier in this sentence to read it), with reasons not so strong that I would call TMJ "obvious" scum.

A day later you're willing to let go of "obvious" scum to go after Titus:

unvote

VOTE: Titus

I'm around to switch to P.Brain if need be until the deadline.

No mention of TMJ.

Next interaction is the one in which you ask TMJ whether or not he'd switch to Pea Brain.

That's it until Day 2 when suddenly you're so convinced of TMJ's guilt that you're on his wagon immediately and never leave it.

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

[bji]

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

EBWOP: There is a progression here, but it's not very convincing, is what I meant to say. I just don't feel like step 2 (policy lynch vote) is a good bridge between step 1 ("forgettable") and step 3 ("obvious scum").

[bji]

I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

It's a theory, one that I'm not sure holds a lot of weight, and I certainly would let guide a lynch.

Did you mistype that? I don't understand why you would say that the theory doesn't hold alot of weight but that you'd let it guide a lynch. Can you clarify?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

You quoted my question but you didn't answer it.

I don't think anyone except you thought that TMJ was such obvious scum.

Well, if anyone didn't think he was scum they should have done.

You gave some evidence against TMJ in post 915 but as far as I am concerned only (c) is even remotely convincing. The rest of it is all basically just statements about why TMJ would be a good policy lynch, not reasons for why he'd be scum.

I would spend time arguing why your wrong on points a), b) and d) if it wasn't the fact

he flipped scum

and therefore maybe you accept that it actually was because he was scum after all.

Can you explain why, if TMJ was such obvious scum, you weren't trying that hard to convince anyone else?

You ask that question as if I didn't get the guy I wanted lynched, lynched.

Let's just take at what your feelings about TMJ were:

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Wow, I keep forgetting your in this game.

Any chance of some content before the day ends?

For instance, what are your thoughs on the Ari wagon and the people on it?

So you kept forgetting that obvious scum was in the game?

Wow. Just wow.

So because I wasn't convinced he was obvscum by post 700, which is clearly the first point in the game I started suspecting him, I guess I was bussing him after all. Is that what your trying to say?

But seriously, why is everything an attack with you? Why are you seemingly going through ISO just hoping to find ammunition. Because that seems to be what is happening here.

A while later you chose to focus on the fact that TMJ was continuing to not post as a reason for voting him. Total policy lynch as far as I can tell:

Its work hour here. Gonna reply in a few hours.

Your few hours have come and passed.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TMJ

You're wrong.

Then comes post 915 (which I wil not quote here in the interests of brevity, please follow the link earlier in this sentence to read it), with reasons not so strong that I would call TMJ "obvious" scum.

Now you're concerned about brevity. The short post, where I made the case for a TMJ lynch is suddenly the one thing not worth quoting. The post I list my fucking reasons. No, fuck it. This was sort scumminess needs to die.

unvote, vote BJI

A day later you're willing to let go of "obvious" scum to go after Titus:

unvote

VOTE: Titus

I'm around to switch to P.Brain if need be until the deadline.

No mention of TMJ.

So I left the wagon of the scumread I couldn't get lynched before the deadline, to help lynch the scumread I could get lynched before the deadline. Why do you think stuff is worth posting?

Next interaction is the one in which you ask TMJ whether or not he'd switch to Pea Brain.

That's it until Day 2 when suddenly you're so convinced of TMJ's guilt that you're on his wagon immediately and never leave it.

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

I'm not wasting more time on this. It's utterly absurd.

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

EBWOP: There is a progression here, but it's not very convincing, is what I meant to say. I just don't feel like step 2 (policy lynch vote) is a good bridge between step 1 ("forgettable") and step 3 ("obvious scum").

Yeah, except I never said he was a policy lynch. You know that because you ISOed me.

I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

It's a theory, one that I'm not sure holds a lot of weight, and I certainly

wouldn't

let guide a lynch.

Did you mistype that? I don't understand why you would say that the theory doesn't hold alot of weight but that you'd let it guide a lynch. Can you clarify?

Fixed.

[bji]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

You quoted my question but you didn't answer it.

Sorry. I was more interested in your assertion that TMJ was an "obvious" scum. However, to answer your question: there were alot of juicy targets at the beginning of Day 2 (Ari's neighborizer claim had been unverified, Pea Brain and Gliffie were topics of general interest, etc).

Also, regarding your recent vote on me, why do you get so freaked out and go all OMGUS all the time? I think my points are reasonable. There is little to no evidence that one could ever put out in this game that is not to some degree a matter of interpretation, and there are always reasonable doubts about everything. Just because I found some of your actions suspicious, and then you specifically ask me to give you details, and then I give you all the details I can think of ... that's your reason for voting me? Can you explain how your vote is not the text book definition of OMGUS?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

You quoted my question but you didn't answer it.

Sorry. I was more interested in your assertion that TMJ was an "obvious" scum. However, to answer your question: there were alot of juicy targets at the beginning of Day 2 (Ari's neighborizer claim had been unverified, Pea Brain and Gliffie were topics of general interest, etc).

I was more suspicious of TMJ than all those players.

Also, regarding your recent vote on me, why do you get so freaked out and go all OMGUS all the time? I think my points are reasonable. There is little to no evidence that one could ever put out in this game that is not to some degree a matter of interpretation, and there are always reasonable doubts about everything. Just because I found some of your actions suspicious, and then you specifically ask me to give you details, and then I give you all the details I can think of ... that's your reason for voting me? Can you explain how your vote is not the text book definition of OMGUS?

Your points aren't remotely reasonable. The fact your having to stretch to make them is scummy. The same way in which you were trying to stretch to make a case against me yesterday. If I find myself asking repeated "how could town post this stuff?", then I just follow the obvious and the conclusion is, this player can't be town.

[texcat]

Bji, I agree that PBrain/ChaosO's repeated voting of SW without making a case or even suggesting a reason is certainly more likely to be scum than someone like you who made a forceful case and then voted. I think scum might bus, but they rarely make long detailed cases in order to do so. On the other hand, I think ChaosO is much less scummy than Pacman or Gliffe/me who didn't vote Titus, and less scummy than West who defended her most of the day and then voted her at the end.

But I think you are making a big mistake in thinking that SW was frustrated with both of her scum partners. It's easy enough to see her frustration with TMJ. She tried to prompt him into doing something more than once. Did you see her express frustration with anyone else? I didn't. This seems more like frustration with town not listening to her.

Because Prolapsed Brain practically has a neon sign he's flashing at all of us saying, "I'm scum, I'm scum" and we are ignoring it.

Frankly, when someone reeks of scum that bad, I want them lynched sooner rather than later.

You are making this way harder than it needs to be. You need to get your head out of the wine barrel. Scum generally are more straightforward than you seem to think.

[West9]

Then comes post 915 (which I wil not quote here in the interests of brevity, please follow the link earlier in this sentence to read it), with reasons not so strong that I would call TMJ "obvious" scum.

Now you're concerned about brevity. The short post, where I made the case for a TMJ lynch is suddenly the one thing not worth quoting. The post I list my fucking reasons. No, fuck it. This was sort scumminess needs to die.

unvote, vote BJI

Egh. I was kinda thinking that this was one of those "newb-bji trying to back-up a scumread and in the process seeing every action that someone made in a scummy light" things again, but this is actually super gross. As is his ignoring of most of 1417.

@texcat

YAWWNNNNN hey let's get back to the part where you forgot to research context while trying to find dirt on me to add to your fabricated case and then misrepped my pushes against Titus as defenses of Silverwolf.

[texcat]

Bji, I've got to agree with Victor and West here. You are making WAY too much of Victor interaction with TMJ. TMJ was obvious lynch, if not for being scum then for being lurker. And you may be right that TMJ's scum buddy may have tutored him on what to say to Victor on D2, but I don't think that means that his scum buddy is Victor. Imagine this conversation,

Scum3: TMJ, WTF! are you ever going to do anything?
TMJ: I don't know what to do.
Scum3: Well, Victor gave you a great opening when he asked you about moving to PBrain. Why don't you pursue that? Here's what you should say.....


Quit making this so hard. Have a little re-read like you did before.

[Cheetory6]

it's a long

[Cheetory6]

way to the top