Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Cheetory6]

Are you at all worried about giving the boon to scum who's snowing people?

[Aronis]

Hi Aronis!
Tell me about your thoughts and feelings on CDB and Bulba tia.

CDB's a mild townread. Bulba is a scumread.

[Aronis]

Also, what happened to 100% town marquis vote?
Any reason you're switching?

The wagon had 2 votes on it at last vc and the other vote was a scumread. So with deadline approaching I needed to swap to one of the other wagons and I preferred vezok bc he's a stronger townread than tso, plus it's a ffery supported vote. My switching had nothing to do with a change of opinion ahout Marquis.

[Titus]

@Cheetory, It's possible that one of the two candidates is scum. We have about 20 hours until the deadline. We have Easter which is a relatively big holiday in the states. I'm gravely concerned that if we don't get a swing behind one of them that we won't get a boon off at all. After the baning we did, I really want us to get a fucking boon. I'd hammer TSO even if I had to.

[Shadoweh]

Amusingly, one of the votes we're missing to Boon vezok is.. vezok. I have faith that two other people will move.
Not booning vezok because they like last-minutes: UT, Bulba, Marquis, TSO, Cheet, Deevee, TAMMY, EMPIRE, mastin. The bolds are requests to hurry up, Empy didn't you just say you wanted to hurry this the fuck up? I have doubts TTH or Dan will bother to post :V Dan if you see this BOON VEZOK.

[Shadoweh]

Titus, have you considered that it feels like you're reading two different games because Bulbasaur is reading from a scum pm, whereas you are reading from a town pm? It's just a question.

[Cheetory6]

I'll be here for deadline.
If I'm not then you can beat me up in the face.

[Cheetory6]

Also @Titus, I'll address your answer eventually, but again, it's a question I intended to direct at someone else

Also also, you missed this if I'm not mistaken:

Do you think your constant push against the majority of TSO's actions this cycle could be interpreted as being a variant of the same thing you're saying he's scummy for?
If you're constantly calling everything he's doing scummy, are you not discrediting him in a way?

[Titus]

Titus, have you considered that it feels like you're reading two different games because Bulbasaur is reading from a scum pm, whereas you are reading from a town pm? It's just a question.

Possible but unlikely. I'm not really driving any ideas that would give him an opportunity to buddy. This game looks an awful lot like Hu2 where he was town. Awesome had a lot of issues with them, and he pushed on with his reads not caring despite her insistance he was off and her being an outed vig.

Here, I see the same sort of fight with well everyone. He's not apologizing but throwing out his scumreads and defending to them when no one seems to be listening. I've been there. I feel for him.

Even the structure of his posts resembles that game.

I frequently disagree with townreads and work with them. I like how he's disagreeing with me which generally (but for that last tiny overreaction) has been very town like.

[Titus]

Also @Titus, I'll address your answer eventually, but again, it's a question I intended to direct at someone else

Also also, you missed this if I'm not mistaken:

Do you think your constant push against the majority of TSO's actions this cycle could be interpreted as being a variant of the same thing you're saying he's scummy for?
If you're constantly calling everything he's doing scummy, are you not discrediting him in a way?

Sorry about that.

I've disagreed with TSO frequently but haven't painted everything he's done as scummy. For instance, the first brush up we had wasn't scummy at all. He misunderstood something (although I'm not certain what) and he's been like a dog with a bone since.

I was hard townreading him, but his recent situation since the boon started coming up makes that weaken a bit.

It's the reasoning and the depth that is the issue. I'm not attacking everyone who disagrees with me on the course of action. The fact TSO gets a direct benefit from that action is troublesome. I'm highlighting reasons and elaborating as to why.

However, I'm not going to dodge the theory just because it isn't applicable here. That gives you no insight into my thought processes whatsoever.

Anytime someone calls something scummy it is a discredit. After all, who wants to follow scum around? The problem is

baseless

reads. I know they are partially en vogue as gambits, spending town cred or whatever, but they are also frequently abused by scum to retcon reads and set up mislynches for later.

Saying everything a player does is scum is problematic, but sometimes a player actually feels another player does things that benefit scum consistently. If so, that player should be able to highlight the reasons why such actions are scummy.

Such players fabricating reasons (which is what I bet your worried about), have hallmarks of resisting talking about other players and other reads.

[Gammagooey]

still want vezok booned

still think bulba is scum after going over his iso, don't like him ignoring all of what I've said about vezok and just commenting on how bad consensus can be sometimes instead of trying to actually convince people that vezok could be scum, probably going to have more to say about him tomorrow when it actually matters.

also empire's idea of having the sign of the person who gets boon targeted outed is still dumb. it's gives scum a free kill

whenever they want

if the person targeted is town. It's not like scum would have to kill them early and give us more information by doing that, and making it easier for scum to make a double kill or even triple kill later in the game is very, very bad.

[Shadoweh]

I wouldn't be against it if I thought it had a tangible benefit. The game is balanced around an entire night phase dedicated to each person individually targetting whoevver they want to ferret out their sign if they want to though. There's a lot less benefit to the town in sharing, in my opinion.

Titus: Fair enough. I disagree but at this point he will work himself out.

[Titus]

I agree with Shadoweh regarding the sharing of the boon. Only the player who has it should know it. Baning someone to get this boon was bad enough as now scum know Bulba's sign (which I think he's town so yeah that's bad). Having Vezok out whoever he gets is just stupid. Maaaaybe he should out WHO he baned, but not who their sign is. Even that is weak though as scum will if and how to fakeclaim.

I also can agree to disagree on Bulba for now.

[Titus]

Minor Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-05 21:00:00)

I am going off to bed. I should be back to drive this home if I have to. I hope that is uncessary.

[DeasVail]

Boon: Vezok

[ChannelDelibird]

Let me respond to Empire before night hits. Just woke up, won't be long

[Shadoweh]

Spoiler: Basically I'm just...

[ChannelDelibird]

This is probably going to be long. Apologies in advance for the wall.

To be honest, I just kinda want to get the boon stuff over with because it's really boring to me and I want to get to the meat and potatoes of the game so if we could do that, that would be awesome.

Keep this in mind, yeah?

1) I've said this before but talking to Regfan again about it, we dislike the stance CES has apparently taken regarding bane'ing vezok due to him being hard to read from earlier today as that's not something we see town-CES believing (Regfan insists that even though vezok can be lurky, he's very transparent).

Look, I have no idea how much CES knows about vezok. I don't follow him about, and I certainly haven't seen enough of vezok to know if the two have often intersected. I can't speak to the believability of what CES says, except that I know it's coming from town. If you think this is truly something so absurd that CES could be believed as thinking it as town, do you think he'd say it as scum? I dunno. I just think this is a weird thing to get really hung up on. The far more likely explanation is that you/Regfan and CES think differently about vezok.

Also, we've not been fans of the attention the team overall is giving to this game. CES, in particular, was really participatory in all of his team's games in the last team mafia (I've been looking for his team's QT link from the old TM but I can't find it right now, if anyone can beat me to it, that'd be great) so the fact that he's not really all that here reads way off to us.

Right, here's the thing that's

really

bugging me. You remember that first quote of yours above? Can you really not think of a reason why my team might not have read all of this game? Patrick left a note overnight - he saw this case of yours and also thinks it's pretty ridiculous that you can't think of an explanation.

We've churned out 53 pages in less than a week, and in not one of those pages have we even been able to vote for somebody to be lynched. This game is a big, unwieldy brute with off-putting mechanics that are, at best, subtler and more difficult to analyse than a typical other game. Unlike me, who works fluctuating hours but can often check during my shift and I'm

still

having trouble getting all the work done that I need to on this game, the rest of my team work during the day and have other things than this to do outside of that. They're putting their own games first, which is perfectly reasonable, and when they get time to catch up with other games to help each other out, it's much, much easier for them to devote the time to catch up with a 15-page normal game than a 50-page behemoth. I empathise with this because I've been catching up with their games and it's a breeze in comparison.

I haven't been pushing hard for them to do more than they're able because I'm not a pushy person but I have asked nicely for some input over the weekend. A break for the Minor Night should be helpful, I imagine. But this is an off-putting game, and your lack of basic empathy how people practically deal with having four different games to read is frankly a bit bizarre.

2) The stance that CDB's entire team apparently thinks bane'ing me is a really bad idea in #754 vs. the later scumread on my slot in #761 still makes absolutely no sense to either me or Regfan. #754 in particular reads as though his team believes I'm town and the only way they can all agree that I'm a terrible bane is if they all townread me which makes no sense considering the later stance in #761.

What are you

talking

about? The logic is easy to follow.

1. In 406, CES proposes, and I agree, that the Bane is best used on someone harder to read, who's not the No.1 scumread and

whom we do not intend to lynch imminently

but whom we wouldn't cry if the scum eliminated them by nightkill.

2. In 754, "The Black Goo" is CDB and CES. With neither of the others caught up enough to offer comment, that was consensus enough for the time being. And yes, we don't want to Bane Empire. That fits exactly with 406. I should note - and I missed this at the time because I was busy passing on the vezok comment - that CES said at this juncture that part of why he didn't want to Bane Empire was because he felt that his alignment would become obvious in time. I'll make sure that he looks at what you've posted overnight to see if he thinks that's happened yet. Eagle-eyed readers will note that this means that CES isn't proposing an Empire lynch at this point. That part is all me, plus some leftover Fenchurch suspicion of Zar from the first few pages that she hasn't had time to follow up upon.

3. Confirmation that my scumread on Empire is in 761 and that it remains consistent.

3) Regfan also emphasized that he really disliked #776 as it basically says that CDB is not discussing his strongest scumread with his teammates, especially considering one has extensive meta with me.

This is my first Team Mafia, so I have nothing to which to compare our team dynamics, but none of us are particularly in the habit of bringing a read to our skype chat and saying "analyse this specifically", though if someone says they're about to go through one of the other's games, we might mention things in particular then. People haven't come to me saying they're about to read through this game, so I haven't asked for specific things - at any rate, I feel like one just generally needs to read the thread in full as the priority rather than homing in on anything, because there are far more players whom I haven't yet been able to sort at all on whom I'd like more input.

You don't know me IRL, so maybe this behaviour is weird to you, but I'm not going to push my team-mates for input because I am comfortable accepting that they will tell me what they can, when they can, and I can discuss it with them then.

He also thinks a lot of his posts read like excuses rather than actual reads and analysis (this is what has been bothering me about CDB's play in the most general sense).

I don't think that anyone with more than passing experience with me should be particularly surprised by what I've put out in this game. Perhaps there aren't really as many people in this game who know me that well as I might have hoped going into it, but a) I don't think this is something you should find too weird and b) it's not like I haven't stated reads and worked on them.

And hey, again, shit is harder to analyse when we're not even allowed to try to kill each other yet. I don't understand Banes and Boons nearly as well as I understand lynch votes, and it is my sincere hope that we can really start to get into this game when people properly start putting their money where their mouths are.

4) Regfan absolutely hated #1106 as he says it's like he's commenting on the possibility of a Tammy nightkill and how that can/can't be linked to me without really trying to read me or discuss my slot with his team.

That would be fair if it were the only post in which I discussed you, but it's not. I also don't think it's weird for me to be thinking about who might be nightkilled when we spent, like, 35 pages deciding how protection would work in this game.

[ChannelDelibird]

Regarding your meta on me, it feels like you've neither read as much as you should have from either before or after The Wire (in as much as anyone

should

read games that they're not in, because I have no idea how people do that, generally speaking).

People in this game whom I think could comment usefully on my performance here in relation to more recent games than you can reference probably include: ActionDan, Gamma, UT, ffery and maybe Titus. Dan, UT and ffery have the most recent experience of me as scum, in Reck's Retrospective Rehash, but Gamma's also seen me as a sort-of-serial-killer. Titus has worked with me as town recently here. There are probably some more recent games, but those are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. I'll see if I can dig out some more if you'd find that helpful.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh wow Empire caught something great here. For people who haven't looked at this yet, in 754, CDB says this:

Also, the Black Goo are agreed that Baning Empire is a bad idea and that you should all stop

. I like all of the other currently voted-for options better.

Empire responds with this:

Uh, have you spoken to your team about me (

#754 implies that you have

)? Because I find it very hard to believe that a guy who (probably still) believes I have no scum game suspects me in this game.

And then CDB says this:

I hadn't brought up your slot at all to my team-mates prior to that post.

CES told me to address you on that point, so I did. He actually hasn't had much of a stance on your alignment yet, but he's less leery of your swap with Zar than I am. (Like Fenchurch, he's not had a comprehensive read of the game.)

@CDB

, you should address this because this looks reallllllllllly nasty to me.

I didn't bring up Empire's slot before that post. CES popped up and said that Empire shouldn't be Baned and I agreed.

[ChannelDelibird]

If it's not obvious, I find Empire's case concerning. I'm used to questions about my excuses/analysis ratio - that part doesn't bother me so much - but he's weirdly wrong about obvious things like the timeline of my stance on his slot and weirdly rigid in his lack of empathy, which I don't associate with someone genuinely trying to figure things out.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB's a mild townread. Bulba is a scumread.

Would like to know why you think both of these things.

[ChannelDelibird]

@TTH:

I have two questions.

1) Why did you swap with Antihero?
2) How well are you fulfilling that reason for swapping?

[vezokpiraka]

@Bulba, we need to get on the same page. Stat. I feel as if we are reading two separate games sometimes.

And I've told you repeatedly, I don't like Vezok for a boon choice, and I won't be voting for him. You can't yell at TSO to make his own decisions and then yell at me when I do.

Unboon

Boon TSO

Tammy is still the better choice, but if we can't do that, I'd prefer TSO.

This is bullshit. I've been booning TSO nearly from the start. I said my team wants him to take the boon while everyone was trying to boon me, but you think I'm scum and he's town? You're reads are so fabricated that you could nail them to a wall to board a window.

[vezokpiraka]

boon vezok