Newbie 1596: Exotic Birds (Game Over)

[deep-city-lights]

That's a pretty macaw! Hi everyone.

VOTE: Wyvernite for being last in the alphabet

This feels like a contrived reason to randomly vote someone. Not contrived as in it doesn't make sense because of course it's not supposed to, but contrived as in "for being last in the alphabet" seems like... too much. In other words, I can easily see this as scum trying to fake a genuine random vote, rather than town who actually doesn't know who scum is and unlike scum doesn't have any scumpartners to try and not interact badly with.

Not saying that if he's scum Wyvern is scum, since trying to determine the votee's alignment from this has too high of a potential to be inaccurate, but I'm just not liking it on Plot's part.

VOTE: Mofunugen
Because I have no idea how to even begin to pronounce that username.

I really want to read this post as coming from town even though I know it probably isn't indicative of either alignment. It just looks so much more comfortable than Plot's RVS vote and even at ease without surrounding context, that it's even making me start to feel relaxed about this whole thing. It's an RVS choice I'd make as town, at the least.

sorry for nitpicking.

So, did everyone get the role they wanted?

You're role-fishing and you should stop.

I wasn't expecting anyone to seriously tell me their role in response to that. I meant it more as a random question stage thing. I was expecting answers like "no, i was hoping to get scum because I was town last time", joking answers like "I was hoping for Jester but it looks like I got Cult Leader" (note for newbies: neither of those roles appear in newbie games), or to be ignored.

But I'll stop now that we have a better conversation topic:

You said your vote on saad was a serious one, so what about his posts seems scummy? The early mafia mention in 6?

This is actually kind of disappointing for me because I so badly wanted that one-off read on Plot from the latest page to stick. But the underlined portions I'm still not liking. These comments from him strike me as unnecessarily apologetic/appeasing (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to 16 I saw nothing that needed an apology, especially for the otherwise-natural Greek/Latin thing) and unnecessarily redirective (pointing attention wholly away from him and onto another person's vote on my slot), respectively. The previous random vote explanation also felt unnecessary. 3 strikes, you're out? - or something like that.

VOTE: Plotinus

Page 1 things of note - Liking Argos. Plotinus reads strongly like nervous scum.

Moving on.

[deep-city-lights]

Wall posts:

Theoretically this helps the town because you’re getting your ideas out there for the town to see, read, and ultimately assess and analyze their own reads from; however, the more that’s written, the less people want to read, and the more that gets lost in translation.

My suggestion:

Preview your posts to make sure only what needs to be said is said. Also, separate ideas by paragraphs, with a couple sentences each. This allows longer posts to be read with ease, and will more likely help others see all the information you/d like to say as opposed to potentially glossing over something that could be really important. Note how I’m formatting this post, though a little paragraphy as it is (also note that I don’t expect everyone to all of a sudden post this way ).

I see.

I'll separate further thoughts into further multiple posts. Looking on my last post, I can see how it'd be easily ignored. Not that that wouldn't happen anyway considering the universal attitude toward my slot, but if the situation were different, well. I'll keep this in mind regardless.

[Cephrir]

Also, I apologize to the moderator if my above post pushes on the "play nice" rule too much - I'm just a bit annoyed by the nonstop self-assured scumread remarks against me while I'm trying to work here.

You're fine.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'll get back to you on that in the morning. DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town.
@Wyvernite can you explain the Wanderer scum read for me? I've never personally liked minor inconsistencies as a scumread.

Yeah so you said that a lot so far.
Post your reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

Shit I'm drunk.

[Wanderer-nl]

[quote="In post 347, Skold"]I'll get back to you on that in the morning. DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town. You keep saying you will post your reads. I might be drunk but I don't suffer from dementia.

[Wanderer-nl]

EBWOP

I'll get back to you on that in the morning.

DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town. You keep saying you will post your reads. I might be drunk but I don't suffer from dementia.

[Wanderer-nl]

I might be temporarily suffering from dementia

[Wanderer-nl]

I'll get back to you on that in the morning.

DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town. You keep saying you will post your reads. I might be drunk but I don't suffer from dementia.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah I'm drunk...... This is really bad.

What I meant was:

I'll get back to you on that in the morning. DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town.
@Wyvernite can you explain the Wanderer scum read for me? I've never personally liked minor inconsistencies as a scumread.

Where are your reads, Skold?!?

[singersigner]

Once again, I have no doubt that I'm the lynch today. But I want to at least be able to hash out some reads first.

No, not so that town has some of those much-beloved "interactions" from me when I flip, or to try and prove I'm town in order to stop my lynch - I'm not that optimistic (though I will say the idea of me willingly providing you all with further interactions from my slot if I were scum, just so you could lynch me without regret and use them to find my partner, is also laughable)

.

No, I am and have been asking for people to unvote someone at L-1, and then asking for people to unvote me upon learning

I

was the player at L-1, so that I could have the opportunity to catch up without being cut off while in the middle of trying to figure the game and my reads out. I absolutely

hate

when bullshit like that happens.

And earlier this was just because of that, just because I wanted to catch up and put a stop to the L-1 lynch wagon if I had a townread on its victim. But now, the primary draw to me is that at least once I'm dead and gone, I'll have the chance to point and laugh and yell "I told you so!" from beyond the grave should I be right.

So...what do you want to be able to do from catching up? Why even offer to replace in if you just want bragging rights? Are you planning on putting cases together so we can actually use that if/when you flip

town

? Because it's not just "oh he's scum WHO DID HE REACT WITH" it's also "oh he was town LET'S LOOK AT HIS TOWN-MINDSET"...does that not matter to you? You've read one page and already feel the need to vote. >_>

My gods. This game has far too much over reaction for people who aren't even close to lynch. Mate you're slot already claimed but even so, you're at L-3. I feel still feel this slot is scum. This is partially because of Swagrid but I feel that everyone who has been giving this slot has gone way off the mark on most things. Claiming at L-3 was weird and over-defensive. I'd like to see your thoughts on Argos and SingerSinger though.

So...what Wanderer said. When exactly are you planning on playing this game? Not even a vote? You want thoughts on me and Argos while you have yet to provide any of your own?

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't have dementia!

[Wanderer-nl]

I tried typing some stuff but my coordination is just way off and just being able to type this is amazing me and I'm going to bed now while listening to some early Muse songs and come back later and weigh in and hope deep-city-lights posted more too.

[deep-city-lights]

I've tried to read a few more pages but I keep having other more important things to do tonight.

I need to sleep due to work tomorrow morning, so I'll finish my catchup tomorrow.

[Cephrir]

I should still be able to run things smoothly, but my access will be less frequent this week (through May 3rd). Expect delays.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: deep-city-lights
I'm sorry but if you were town you would have at least posted some content from what you've gotten so far.
You seem to drag this out as long as you can. It stops now.

Yeah I didn't go to bed yet. It's 6.40 am here and am being picked up at noon so considering not sleeping at all..

[Wanderer-nl]

L-1 I think
Will post bigger but will check first

[Wanderer-nl]

L-2.
Just wanted to make sure.

[deep-city-lights]

it's also "oh he was town LET'S LOOK AT HIS TOWN-MINDSET"...does that not matter to you?

You are either scum or a hopeless idealist.

To be honest, I'm hoping the former, and have been since reading your posts that happened after I replaced in. The worst thing in the world is a game with an experienced player who's town with horrible reads, with the rest of the game being town or scum newbies who might just be content to sheep that read. I wish I was able to read into the early exchange between you and BBT more deeply than I was actually able to.

Regardless of how beneficial it could be, I barely if ever see town taking the reads of a dead townie they were previously so intent on lynching into account. In fact I see scum using dead players' reads/mindsets more often than town does, usually selectively in order to push whatever agenda they're set on.

Face it, when I flip town, none of you are going to care. Some of you will attempt to reset your reads, sure, but my reads will have minimal if any impact on that, because especially with your so-certain attitudes toward my alignment right now you'll still really only listen to yourself. And despite my tone, I'm not really all that bitter about it - it's something I've come to accept long ago.

So, no Singer, it does not matter to me, because it won't happen. Or maybe it will now that we're bringing up this whole issue, but who cares, really? If it does there'll probably be scum among you bringing any incorrect reads of mine to the forefront and trying to use those for the final mislynch.

(Reminder that after this, assuming Jailkeeper doesn't target correctly because that's unlikely, town will die in night too, and then it'll be 3 town and 2 scum. When it gets to that point ,

do not vote right away

. If any member of town votes another town player, both scum can vote that player really quickly to hammer and win.)

[deep-city-lights]

I'm sorry but if you were town you would have at least posted some content from what you've gotten so far.

Another idealist. (I don't think you're scum, though, so points for that.)

I know my real-world schedule isn't the most appealing. But trust me, I feel the same. So good night.

[Wanderer-nl]

dcl: how much experience do you have with mafia-related games?

[deep-city-lights]

I've played here before. But I'm fairly nomadic.

[Wanderer-nl]

By the way, with all the people townleaning/townreading me, wyvernite can hardly be scum.

[Plotinus]

By the way, with all the people townleaning/townreading me, wyvernite can hardly be scum.

can you walk me through how people townreading you says something about wyvernite's alignment?

[Plotinus]

Spoiler: introduction

This new format I thought of is quite a bit of work for me but it really helps me put myself in someone else's shoes and try to understand their motivations. Basically I go through their ISO and keep track of their slots interactions with every other slot and try to summarise how their view of the player has changed over time.

I expect this to help me detect things like suspicious lack of interaction between slots, bussing, softbussing, sniping from the sidelines, casting doubt on multiple slots at once with a scattershot, working together with mutual townreads, etc.

I will need to try it out a few more times and I won't know until someone I've analysed flips if it makes my reads more accurate, but I'm finding it helps me put aside preconceived ideas of a slot and look at them in a different light if deserved.

+ defending another player, agreeing with them, townreading them, townleaning them
- being suspicious of another player, disagreeing with them, scum reading them, scum leaning them
= neutral interaction with a slot or disagreeing about theory stuff
+? i think he's saying something positive about this person but i can't tell
-? same but for negative things

After the initial interaction with a slot, I will only be commenting on posts that indicate a change of mind and why he changed his mind.

Spoiler: how Wyvernites interaction with different slots changed over time

BBT -39 +45 =121
started off arguing with BBT, then defends BBT against saad's deflection

mofo
(never interacted, probably didn't have time)

Plotinus -+?39 =207 -244 v245 -249
started off telling me I was making excuses to play badly in the future but says everything else seems town-leaning (not sure if that was still about me or if he'd moved onto someone else), fairly consistently scumreads me or anti-town reads me throughout day 2.

singersigner +-244 -249 -331
comes out as strong town on singer but says we need to reevaluate her later, later accuses of her soft defending me and later is dismissive of her marinating idea

Wanderer-nl =244 -268 +270 -v331
starts out null on wanderer, then finds her scummy for offering to answer any questions he has and for asking too many questions, then posts encouraging her to not be uncomfortable posting reads, then votes her, accusing her of being inconsistent in changing her mind on deep-city

Argos +244
starts out slight leaning town on argos because argos has been helpful and because he's "actually provided posts with a bit of content in them"

Skold v33 -244
rvs voted skold, reads him as scummy for inactivity

deep-city +39 -45 =50 -57 v-61 -83 +-121 -244 -331
started off defending saad to BBT, then disliked saad's 40 for not making own argument but deflecting onto BBT (really wanderer), defends saad's terminology mix up as not the important reason he's scummy.

What's jumping out the most to me in the above, aside from the saad tunnel that we're all caught in, is the interaction with Argos. I like Argos' posts too, because they're eloquent and they use nice metaphors and I think I would like them as a person a lot, but if I was trying to describe someone who has "actually provided posts with a bit of content in them" as opposed to ... doing the opposite: lurking, or posting lots of off topic fluff (from my perspective we haven't had that this game but I think wyvernite defines fluff differently than I do), then Argos is not someone who leaps to mind because Argos has posted less than Wyvernite. Argos seems like someone measured and calm and thinking and watching and not quite sure how or if to leap into the fray. I could see both newbie town and newbie scum doing that so for me it's kind of null.

Otherwise there hasn't been much interaction between Argos-Wyvernite but they've both been quiet enough that it's hard to say whether that means anything or not.

The reverse on wanderer also seems to come out of nowhere.

There's just not been enough interaction between wyvernite-everyone else for this to show stronger patterns that I can be confident aren't just random noise. However I did notice something that stood out a lot to me:

Spoiler: What wyvernite thinks is scummy:

inactivity and posts lacking content scummy in 39
(he's only had 16 posts, which is about 4% of the thread. and most of his posts are about theory, mainly his theories that everything is scummy. I don't think that's necessarily scummy but he does)

saying people are misunderstanding you without clarifying what you're saying and throwing out half-assed reads on scum 57

fluff posts that don't mean much that still imply the other person is shady so you can backpedal later 61
(he's done this a bunch of times himself. I also don't think this is necessarily scummy all the time because it can harm town to appear more sure of your reads than you are. if you're nightkilled and everyone thought you had a strong scumread on someone when you actually weren't very sure, that could lead to another townie being killed. but scum definitely do it too and I agree that saad was doing it the scummy way.)

121 fluff posts aren't scummy, implying that people are scummy without wording it strongly is
(he does this a few times, for example in his interactions with singer when he says she's softdefending (which implies she's scummy) without saying she's scummy. I disagree that this thing is scummy because that means questioning your scumspect without outright accusing them is scummy which is absurd, but it's important to take note when someone says x is scummy and then does x.)

207 sheeping is scummy because it lets others do the mental work for you while still making you look busy, if they were town it makes you look better for defending them, if you flip mafia it will make an innocent person look bad if you sheep them.
(I think this was a good point and he doesn't seem to be sheeping anyone which is good. This idea

can

be taken too far and I think it has been at times in this game though not really by Wyvernite. Sheeping is anti-town, sure, but if you rob the town of the ability to agree with each other, we're never going to get anything accomplished. This is a game of persuasion. Sometimes you will be the one persuading, sometimes you will be persuaded, neither are scummy.)

244 it is scummy to be too towny, to acknowledge your mistakes as a newbie, to townread wyvernite, to not have enough scumreads, talking too much, posting quote walls
(wyvernite is also townreading wyvernite)

245 derphammering
(I agree this is anti-town)

268 posting quotewalls is town if you post a lot of your thoughts in response to them or bold the parts you like but not posting enough of your thoughts in the quotewalls is scummy. asking too many questions to try to get everyone talking is leading the town which is scummy
(when my posts are too long, that's scummy. when wanderers posts are too short in comparison to what she's quoting, that's scummy. i think this is when i started losing patience with wyvernite thinking everything is scummy)

269 (soft)defending your townreads is scummy. the mistake wasn't necessarily scummy but it was definitely anti-town.
(wyvernite has defended people a couple times, like he was defending his scumread saad about the terminology mixup thing. I agree with singer's response to this and that defending is an important part of a townie's toolkit. I even think that sometimes it's okay to defend a scumread if you think people are being unfair, for example saying "I think [my scumread]'s right for once - I'm still scumreading them but it was way out of line for [my townread] to call them a _____")

331 changing your mind is scummy
(So much disagree with this. being open to new information from a slot changing your mind is good play. changing your mind a lot without reason is bad play. never changing your mind is terrible play. from either alignment. Anyway, Wyvernite changed his mind about BBT early on, me (early on, I think he was townleaning me early day 1), wanderer (very recently), saad (early on))

I had a look at the scum game of singer's that she linked to (thanks singer I tried to metadive you earlier but because you're a listmod you posted the final goodbye post on a lot of games before archiving them and it made it too hard to find which you'd actually played in), and in the mafia thread, singer tells her partner to act like a towny on overdrive, asking themself for every post a townie makes "what is the town motivation here" and if they don't find one, to nitpick it.

But this is his first newbie game so maybe he just is a townie on overdrive? Scumhunting is good. I'm not saying scumhunting is scummy. Obviously. But a lot of this is reaching, and nitpicky, and some of it is contradictory, he's done lots of the things he's calling scummy himself.

So tl;dr: I've been growing more concerned about wyvernite. This is why. Even though deep-city's slot has been scummy all game, deep-city is

right

that we shouldn't just spend the next few days prodging until we lynch her. Why not continue interacting with each other and try different ways of looking at the game.