Newbie 1596: Exotic Birds (Game Over)

[Plotinus]

I'm serious Argos. I can't say why because it pertains to my other games. I genuinely am not allowed to explain why I feel that I have enough time to play in other games.

I don't want you to talk about that game or anything going on it. The reason people join games is that they want to play in them. You don't have to get any more specific than that, that's your own business and would break the rules and would be unfun for everyone.

Instead, I want you to say something like "now that I've finished my last exam*, I have a lot more free time so I'm going to be participating here a bunch more." and then, you know, do that.

*or whatever

[Cephrir]

Please stop having this replacement conversation. Thank you!

[Plotinus]

ok, sorry Skold and Cephrir.

[Skold]

Eh, you don't need to apologize to me. I just don't like flirting with the rules.

@Wanderer I thought I was reading your ISO for a second. You know fine well that my reads I posted are mainly gut. I don't, can't, and shouldn't expect you to understand or draw from my gut reads. DCL is scum, I want her lynched. Those are my opinions. And Jesus Christ I said I'd take a day off. No need to flip out.

[Wanderer-nl]

Eh, you don't need to apologize to me. I just don't like flirting with the rules.

@Wanderer I thought I was reading your ISO for a second. You know fine well that my reads I posted are mainly gut. [b[I don't, can't, and shouldn't expect you to understand or draw from my gut reads.[/b] DCL is scum, I want her lynched. Those are my opinions. And Jesus Christ I said I'd take a day off. No need to flip out.

It would be very helpful if you could make me (and the rest of us) understand though.
But you know what, I give up on you. If you refuse to explain your reads, if you refuse to even point at the slightest bit of evidence that supports your gut, so be it. I don't know how to activate you. I will just avoid playing with you from now on.

[Wanderer-nl]

Eh, you don't need to apologize to me. I just don't like flirting with the rules.

@Wanderer I thought I was reading your ISO for a second. You know fine well that my reads I posted are mainly gut.

I don't, can't, and shouldn't expect you to understand or draw from my gut reads.

DCL is scum, I want her lynched. Those are my opinions. And Jesus Christ I said I'd take a day off. No need to flip out.

It would be very helpful if you could make me (and the rest of us) understand though.
But you know what, I give up on you. If you refuse to explain your reads, if you refuse to even point at the slightest bit of evidence that supports your gut, so be it. I don't know how to activate you. I will just avoid playing with you from now on.

EBWOP (fixed tags)

[Skold]

I have explained my reads. As gut reads. I don't know how to explain it when I just feel like I know someone's alignment, so I won't present it as evidence. You asked for reads, I gave them. I need to finish up a book review, adios for the day.

[deep-city-lights]

Skold is town. Regardless of whatever day scum wants to get my mislynch that, do not lynch Skold today or tomorrow. His reads and reasons suck. But he's real town and not faking being town.

The only thing I will say to Wanderer right now is that if the only reason you're lynching me right now is because you think I "could be" scum - honey, you're barely going to win any games that way.

I know I've said I hate a lot of things about mafia, but here's one more: people who lynch people for the mere chance of being scum, even if they're reading their posts as town without that slice of paranoia. That's how you get your most accurate or strong-willed town lynched, and considering how strong my top townreads and scumreads are now compared to how I've felt about my wishy-washy reads in recent games, I do think that I'm very likely accurate right now.

And if this is why I'm being lynched by some of my townreads right now, then of course I'm going to fight against that. I still have strong suspicions that a scum-singer wants to save my lynch for LYLO, but I would not at all be displeased if she or Plotinus had their scum flip today rather than in the endgame win I'm expecting from scum at this rate.

At the very least I want to read more and try to lock Argos into either a good townread or stronger scumread than Singer. Once I have that I should have a much better, less doubtful check at the scumteam.

[Plotinus]

The longer this day goes on, the more apathetic I'm feeling. I tried to combat that by going through some ISOs, like I did with wyvernite earlier, but I feel like DCL has set up a narrative where if we do try to end the day before she's caught up, that's scum wanting to prevent her from saying her piece instead of town wanting to combat player apathy by moving on once everyone-but-dcl feels that they're not going to get anything else out of the day until they see some flips/can use their night actions to narrow things down further.

If Skold is town, maybe he's feeling some apathy too.

Wyvernite hasn't posted in over 3 days, maybe he's made up his mind.

Wanderer still seems to be figuring things out and finding things to talk about which is good and if she wants to keep going in day 2 for longer I'll defer to that because I'm townreading her.

Singer's barely here, not sure if it's apathy or waiting for the day to end or busy elsewhere or what.

Not sure what Argos is feeling.

DCL clearly wants the day to continue.


So I think we should call an unofficial vote. There are 5 of us who are town so I think we should get 5 people to agree -- even in the worst case scenario that 2 of the people agreeing are scum, the remaining 3 are a majority of town players, so I think that's fair.

If you are feeling the apathy / feeling that you are running out of things you can resolve before seeing some more flips, write "vote day 3". If you want to stay in day 2 for some more time, write "vote vote 2". If 5 people vote for day 3, we should start placing our votes where we think they should go. If 3 people vote for day 2 then that's enough to call it for staying in day 2.

so I'm voting: vote day 3

Copy this part below and edit it into your message:

day 2 (0/3):
day 3 (1/5): Plotinus

abstaining (6): Argos, deep-city-lights, singersigner, Skold, Wanderer, Wyvernite

[Plotinus]

wanted to make it clear that I don't think voting either option is necessarily alignment indicative. I can see an argument for town picking either day and I can see an argument for scum picking either day.

[Plotinus]

*If you want to stay in day 2, write "vote

day

2"

ebwop

[singersigner]

Yeah sorry I'm here I just drank more than I thought this weekend so I'll catch up again after work.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold is town. Regardless of whatever day scum wants to get my mislynch that, do not lynch Skold today or tomorrow. His reads and reasons suck. But he's real town and not faking being town.

The only thing I will say to Wanderer right now is that if the only reason you're lynching me right now is because you think I "could be" scum - honey, you're barely going to win any games that way.

I know I've said I hate a lot of things about mafia, but here's one more: people who lynch people for the mere chance of being scum, even if they're reading their posts as town without that slice of paranoia. That's how you get your most accurate or strong-willed town lynched, and considering how strong my top townreads and scumreads are now compared to how I've felt about my wishy-washy reads in recent games, I do think that I'm very likely accurate right now.

And if this is why I'm being lynched by some of my townreads right now, then of course I'm going to fight against that. I still have strong suspicions that a scum-singer wants to save my lynch for LYLO, but I would not at all be displeased if she or Plotinus had their scum flip today rather than in the endgame win I'm expecting from scum at this rate.

At the very least I want to read more and try to lock Argos into either a good townread or stronger scumread than Singer. Once I have that I should have a much better, less doubtful check at the scumteam.

First of all, I'm not lynching you. But if you want to convince me on Plotinus, you're going to have to do a better job than accusing him of a 'scummy entrance' and posts from 2 pages out of a current 18 pages of game.
I also don't see Plotinus and singer being the scumteam because Plotinus has followed singer's lynches a lot and scum wouldn't want to be linked that way.

@Plotinus: We have 4 days left, which isn't a lot. We should be starting to vote soon anyway. I don't want to waste time reading people's choices on days, I want people to give their say on who to lynch.
Also, Wyvernite has said, and is consistent, that he's not around on weekends. I'm curious what Wyvernite has to say when he gets back.
When I said dcl is likely not going to finish all her reads before nightfall, she agreed and seemed to give up. She said to lynch her if we wanted to now. Now we can't lynch her? And she also stopped making reads, she's just commenting on the lynch on herself, and a little Skold. What bothers me is that saad thought Plotinus was scum, swagrid did not but voted Argos, dcl went back to Plotinus. Can we maybe talk about that?

[Skold]

Vote: D3

[Argos]

The longer this day goes on, the more apathetic I'm feeling. I tried to combat that by going through some ISOs, like I did with wyvernite earlier, but I feel like DCL has set up a narrative where if we do try to end the day before she's caught up, that's scum wanting to prevent her from saying her piece instead of town wanting to combat player apathy by moving on once everyone-but-dcl feels that they're not going to get anything else out of the day until they see some flips/can use their night actions to narrow things down further.

If Skold is town, maybe he's feeling some apathy too.

Wyvernite hasn't posted in over 3 days, maybe he's made up his mind.

Wanderer still seems to be figuring things out and finding things to talk about which is good and if she wants to keep going in day 2 for longer I'll defer to that because I'm townreading her.

Singer's barely here, not sure if it's apathy or waiting for the day to end or busy elsewhere or what.

Not sure what Argos is feeling.

DCL clearly wants the day to continue.


So I think we should call an unofficial vote. There are 5 of us who are town so I think we should get 5 people to agree -- even in the worst case scenario that 2 of the people agreeing are scum, the remaining 3 are a majority of town players, so I think that's fair.

If you are feeling the apathy / feeling that you are running out of things you can resolve before seeing some more flips, write "vote day 3". If you want to stay in day 2 for some more time, write "vote vote 2". If 5 people vote for day 3, we should start placing our votes where we think they should go. If 3 people vote for day 2 then that's enough to call it for staying in day 2.

so I'm voting: vote day 3

Copy this part below and edit it into your message:

day 2 (0/3):
day 3 (1/5): Plotinus

abstaining (6): Argos, deep-city-lights, singersigner, Skold, Wanderer, Wyvernite

I think that we've gotten enough out of deep-city-lights that we can start to put our cards on the table. Vote: day 3

[Wanderer-nl]

Fine then. Ignore discussion and just pick someone to vote.

[Plotinus]

@Wanderer, oh I didn't know that about wyvernite. It's true he wasn't active last weekend either but I can't find where he said it in his ISO. Do you know? We can wait for him. We can wait for singer who seems to want to catch up. We can talk about saad/reubus/dcl's reads.

I think they seem to come out of nowhere. Saad seemed to be deflecting onto pretty much everybody (except Argos who he had one nice thing to say about, and Skold who he ignored after RVS). Reubus' reads also seemed pulled out of nowhere and weren't explained. DCL is still talking about the first couple pages. She wants to get a firmer opinion of Argos. How long does it take to a read a 19 post ISO? She writes a lot of words but her read on me is entirely based on the first two pages. I don't think she's even gotten to twilight yet. Now she's sure Skold is town. Why? She and saad both don't like singer, but neither say why. Gut reads are fine for the person with the gut but they don't do much for the rest of us.

The only thing keeping me back from voting dcl now is that i wasn't sure if there was more you guys wanted out of day 2 or not. So, 3 of us are ready to vote, but we can wait until 5 of us are ready. I definitely think we shouldn't push it right up to the deadline, but should vote at least 24 hours before.

[Wanderer-nl]

About Wyvernite: I can't find it either. Now I can't remember who wrote it or where I even read someone write it so in order to not acciendtally talk about ongoing games, I'd like to disregard this. And also think it's time to call Wyvernite out for an opinion.

I agree with a lynch on dcl because this day mostly revolved around that slot and at this point to me it would feel like we wasted this entire day if we didn't see dcl flip.
I am really curious what dcl thinks about Wyvernite voting for me, though.

[singersigner]

Why wait when we have serious things to discuss? RVS is an ice-breaker, we have broken the ice and I have found scum.

Because he decided to make a jovial post about roles/allignment? This seems unnessasarily inflammatory. It will spark discussion, but it won't exactly be produtive. We're on page two, which is only about 1 page of content, since moderator's posts take up a fair amount of page one. I see nothing scummy or really wrong with keeping RVS going a little bit longer. I'd tone your posts down. It isn't going to accomplish anything productive. We'll just have lots of posts, similar to yours, without any content.

Let the town talk for a bit, and then we can see who's inactive, and who really lacks content. Both of which are scum behavior. If we try to start super serious reads and discussion this early, we have nothing to go off of.

If you insist to start going for reads this early, your own posts seem to not be that well thought out, as you have 3 posts over the course of 30 minutes, none of which are more than 5 lines, most of which is fluff. I'm not sure if you're scum, or town just acting like an ass to draw out a bandwagon on yourself. Time will tell I guess.

I actually had to ISO Wyvernite to remember literally anything he's said this game, and I found this. Do you think you've been active enough/contributing enough content at this point in time to not have it considered, as you say, "scummy behavior"?

[singersigner]

I still think DCL is the way to go because there will be too much confusion in LyLo if she's kept alive, we already have a VT claim so we're not pushing to test a PR, and there are too many inconsistencies with the slot that I'm uncomfortable with: saad's claim, then DCL's comment about the jailkeeper...neither of which are damning in it of themselves, but combined two on the same slot leaves too much margin of error.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wyvernite's interaction with the slot could be considered soft distancing, but that's too much speculation before a flip.

I ISO's Argos and I think he's town. I originally thought his "native speaker" excuse could've been read as making excuses for a scum buddy, but reading his posts in order and all together make me feel like he's genuinely trying to not get caught up in bias. He wants to critically think about why someone is scummy, instead of just finding an excuse to do so. Particularly the point where he notices Plotinus' comment about seeing saad squirm, but not ever actually having the opportunity to, points to the kind of inconsistencies I'd expect someone genuinely scumhunting to be looking for/find. I suppose scum would also be using anything they can to paint someone as scummy, but I'm not getting that from Argos.

I'm not as sold on scumSkold anymore.

[Plotinus]

what do you think of my 374? I went in mostly townreading wyvernite with a few vague concerns and i came out of it kinda null on him -- it wasn't enough for me to be scum reading him over it but i did have some concerns.

[singersigner]

Oh right, I forgot about that post. I found you pretty town for it because of the effort alone, but I honestly didn't read it that thoroughly at that point. Now that I ISO'd him myself, I noticed the comment about finding inactivity/low content to be scummy, and many of his posts seem to be IoA (information over analysis). For not being the IC, that reads as the appearance of trying to provide something without actually having much to provide.

Granted, I don't really know that scum would be so obvious as to say "this is something to watch out for!" and then proceed to do it. Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell.

[Plotinus]

Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell.

Oh, I thought it might be one, but I suppose that would make the game too easy.

[singersigner]

Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell.

Oh, I thought it might be one, but I suppose that would make the game too easy.

Have you never found something scummy and then done it yourself? Like...say someone's scum for posting around the site instead of the game, but then you find yourself doing it because it's easier to respond to one thread than try to thinking critically in another?

That was probably a terrible example, but I'm having a hard time coming up with something without having anything in particular to point out.

Also, it's not the hypocrisy that's scummy, it's the way someone manipulates it. So like, if it looks like they're furthering their own agenda with their inconsistencies, as opposed to actually trying to find the differences to support their argument. Again, I wish I had a better example off the top of my head, but if you don't understand I can try to clarify it further.

[singersigner]

OH OK. So like, Wyvernite in 244 has an opportunity to comment on both Argos and Skold who have very few posts with questionable content (not questionable as in bad, but questionable as in there's not much), but didn't, so I'm curious as to how he came into the game with a bold statement such as "this is scummy but let's wait and see what happens" and then proceeds not to pay any attention to that, which looks like he was just posting that to post it (IoA) because it's the standard thing to find scummy. If he'd actually commented on their inactivity, however, it would've shown that he took it, assessed it, and then came up with those reads independently of his prior statement, which would make his own inactivity less...damning? based on how he views it as a whole.