New York 182 - Game Over

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2025 (isolation #1) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:35 am

describe the notscience wagon in 140 characters or less

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2027 (isolation #2) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:41 am

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?s ... =egosearch

quick skim of noddy's iso says sakura interactions make him town (or not scum with sakura)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2028 (isolation #3) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:52 am

it's sad that with 1 day to the deadline, the next biggest wagon is 3 votes and it doesn't look like it's on scum, either

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2029 (isolation #4) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:59 am

someone give me a reads list to work with as a baseline (preferably one that isn't bad*) - i'm not sure i'll be reading a full 80 pages in time for anything i say about it to matter

* any reads list with my slot as anything other than town is one i'd consider bad. before offering to replace in, i skimmed through elusive's iso and it took me all of about 10 seconds to realise i was replacing into a town slot (because sakura interactions and general play)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2030 (isolation #5) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:28 am

Vote: Thor

minor feelings he's scum from what i've skimmed but mostly a place-holder til i find something better (and an open invitation for him to make me think he's not scum)

gonna lie down and start doing ISOs of people on the noddy wagon on my phone. i may or may not fall asleep while doing this

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2057 (isolation #6) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:18 pm

i'm not necessarily sure he is the scummiest player, but it felt like a good place to put my vote. i was opening up random points of the game and reading through different places to see if anything caught my attention and thor's posts were feeling really stiff and mechanical to me. that said, now that there's a deadline extension, i'll be reading the game properly over the course of the day so i'll be able to flesh this out a little

have you ever played with noddy before?

is 2054 all of why you think noddy is scum?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2058 (isolation #7) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:19 pm

the course of the day being the course of the IRL day. so some time in the next 12~ish hours

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2060 (isolation #8) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:31 pm

i'll brush my teeth

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2062 (isolation #9) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:40 pm

eh. i dunno. maybe he just doesn't like large normals or something. you replaced into his slot in 173 where he basically lurked for over 2 whole weeks before a short burst of activity followed by flaking

that said, i would like it if he came out to play

what are your reads (and why)?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2064 (isolation #10) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:03 pm

@marquis

actually one thing that slightly worried me when i skimmed through noddy's ISO is that some of his earlier posts felt a bit feigned (e.g. i'm not sure whether 622 really makes any sense given his posts before that had... nothing much in them?). i dunno

what do you think about the sakura interactions? do you think it's possible the way they interacted was scum-scum?

these in particular:

Spoiler:

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2065 (isolation #11) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:05 pm

(also i kinda feel there might be more jumping for joy at the fact that he was right about sakura in his first D2 post, instead it felt a bit formal... that said, it's not like he played any direct part in sakura dying, so i dunno)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2066 (isolation #12) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:10 pm

Spoiler: noddy D1->D2

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2067 (isolation #13) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:15 pm

you know, i used to have a scum tell for mnemonicdevice that went "if he ever puts effort into the game, and especially if he does a PBPA, he's scum"

i wonder if that still holds

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2077 (isolation #14) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:24 am

Varsoon, Flubbernugget, Gorkington*
Antihero, copper223*, TheFuzzylogic99, OkaPoka, pisskop
notscience, Marquis, droog
ika, mnemonicdevice, Seohyun
ZZZX, Boonskiies, Thor665

at the end of D1. not particularly important, but i'm working on the assumption this is 16:4:1 or 15:5:1 (depending on the distribution of town/scum power)
i'd lynch from the bottom of this list if trying to hit group-scum
i'd lynch from the asterisks if trying to hit SK (though i'm not particularly fond of taking shots in the dark on people who i'm pretty sure are not group-scum, it's just something i'd keep in mind further down the line)

not entirely sure i'm comfortable with lynching Thor while he's V/LA. i think he could very well be scum, but i would have preferred interacting with him a little to shore up this read one way or another, and that seems unlikely with him gone til the deadline

i'll finish reading the rest of the game then maybe go through each of my reads (or ones that i think are important/controversial, at least). maybe before i go to sleep tonight, more likely tomorrow though

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2078 (isolation #15) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:31 am

though i'm kinda wondering where scum's roleblock went N1

the logical choice would have been to roleblock the person claiming confirmable role (which, with a dead watcher, is not a very risky plan at all)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2079 (isolation #16) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:11 am

i would like it if noddy looked like he gave even the slightest smurf about this game

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2083 (isolation #17) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:32 am

In post 2081, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:What is bothering me is he voted Sakura early and kept the vote on her while acting like he is townreading her or maybe consider her null. I get the whole buddy thing ..they are friends. Still I would expect him to push a case on her ( maybe not in a way we are totally use to) or take his vote off of her.

are you referring to what was obviously a joke/greeting/whatever vote, regardless of noddy's alignment?

a vote he made without having read the game?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2097 (isolation #18) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:55 pm

In post 2094, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Marquis seem to be trying to say his vote on Sakura was a town sigh

no, he's talking about the overall interactions with sakura, including calling sakura scum after the flames stuff happened, not the vote

In post 2094, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:What are you your thought on tbe Thor wzgon

it's hard to parse what you're actually asking here.

my thoughts on the people on the wagon? mostly or all town - see reads list.

my thoughts on thor himself? i might go into detail when i finish reading (about 30 pages behind atm) - though, briefly, the only interaction i can recall between thor and sakura was that early "why are you buddying me?!?!" thing which was never followed up on and i don't remember them interacting on any meaningful level after that plus i think a lot of thor's stances are very mechanical and superficial.

my thoughts on whether he should be lynched today? see my hesitance in the second last paragraph of 2077

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2099 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:26 pm

well that's not cool

look what you've done now

Spoiler:

zMuffinMan · Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:39 pm

"don't wreck shit" seems like an adequate policy though? unless it takes all his concentration to not wreck shit, in which case he probably has bigger problems than a mafia game and i can understand his absence

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2109 (isolation #21) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:46 am

eh, i don't have any strong feelings about ZZZX being scum, it's just that i can't think of anything he's written that made me think town. i mean there's very minor things here or there but nothing super amazing

as a sort of "culling deadweight" thing, i suppose i wouldn't shed many tears if a ZZZX lynch happened, but eh

same for boon, really

thor i feel is more likely scum than either of them, but i am not very courageous and if i'm wrong i'd feel really bad about lynching him while he's VLA, which is putting me in a predicament. cull useless players who *might* be scum of push lynch on a rather strong player who i'd rather have around if i happen to be wrong

im gonna sleep on it and write my full thoughts on stuff tomorrow maybe. aware of deadline but i can barely keep my eyes open

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2149 (isolation #22) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:55 am

In post 2130, Thor665 wrote:Dude, serious? You're calling me scum, but because I took a V/LA I'm somehow safe from you?

no?

that's not what i said at all, actually

i said i wanted to interact with you and get a feel for where you're currently at with the game but i can't because you're VLA. it wasn't an accusation, just a statement of fact

it has nothing to do with why i think you're scum, it was just me mentioning my disappointment in the timing of your VLA

i think you're scum because

(1) you're pushing the idea that sakura was buddying to you really hard when she wasn't. she mentioned liking one of your points in one of her posts... and that's it. what happened after that? virtually no interaction between the two of you. you didn't follow up on her at all after asking a few generic questions about her "buddying" and you didn't pressure her at all if you thought it was suspicious. on her end of things? pretty much no mentions of you after that. i think she was being extremely conscious of you and not wanting to openly "buddy" someone she was scum with. or maybe it's a coincidence because she never saw a need to agree with you again or maybe she feared you'd catch on to her. though, given you were applying absolutely zero pressure to her at all, i see the latter scenario here as unlikely. the only thing i'm thinking about right now is whether you would have consciously tried to interact more with her as a scum buddy, and i'm currently undecided whether i think that's the case. what i do think, however, is that you pushing the idea that you're town because she was "hard buddying you" in one post is a load of smurf.

(2) a lot of your stances have felt pretty smurfing smurf. i call it mechanical because i see you pushing lines of logic but i don't see you analysing motivation at all, really. a prime example would be the push on my slot today. it's based completely on the idea that you think... scum would outright lie about facts that can be checked. when others (including elusive) suggested it could be a problem of interpretation, you dismissed it as dodging and asked them to prove it. i thought your varsoon push was

maybe

understandable from a town-you perspective, since i could theoretically see you not liking the fact he lied about his claim maybe, but that was also an incredibly mechanical push. i found myself agreeing with a lot of copper's niggles with you D1 as well and i never really understood why you felt copper was scum (or scummy). oh, and i suppose one other issue i have with the way you're approaching things today is that i think you're not really taking into account what different interactions with sakura were actually saying. for example, the idea that antihero was scum with sakura because she buddied you, not him! that read like a pile of smurf to me. it's simplistic thinking and it isn't looking at a lot of different factors (focusing on one post and nothing else) and i think you're a better player than that.

i know i haven't played with you as town for like a bajillion years but i don't remember you being this robotic in the way you approached the game.

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:16 am

thank you for the visual representation

i'm not surprised you don't have enough time for mafia with your condition as it is

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:59 am

you should probably ask better questions if you're not looking for a simple "i'm town" or "i don't give a smurf what you do"

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:10 am

btw thor,

could you remind me why you're voting noddy?

because as far as i can tell, it's because he was active lurking or something like that

what do you think of his interactions with sakura? or his play in general outside of the recent inactivity?

i mean, he could be scum, i suppose, but i don't even really know why you're voting him except that he's useless (which applies to a few players in this game). why is noddy the special scum one?

In post 2130, Thor665 wrote:The Fuzzy wagon is suspicious for still being alive - I'd also be willing to lynch any of those scumballs voting it.

also could you describe who you're referring to here specifically (unless you mean you think all of the scum are out to get him?) and why they're "scumballs" (other than voting a wagon you seem to disagree with)?

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:23 am

i know you were talking to noddy

i'm saying if you want better answers than that out of him, you need to ask better questions

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:50 am

In post 2170, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Z Muffin
Are you scum reading Thor and if so why

are... are you serious?

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:53 am

i mean, there's this and (while this isn't actually a case or anything, it should at least give you an idea of things that i don't like about his play) 2167

i mean i suppose i could pull up quotes and stuff and go into a lot more detail about that? i dunno how you missed what my stance on thor is, though...

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2203 (isolation #29) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:02 pm

out of interest, if you do live through the day, are you planning to stop being an unhappy bundle of apathy?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2205 (isolation #30) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:03 pm

i'm not really interested in seeing you 'defend' yourself so much as actually participate.

you know

tell me who you think is scum and why and all that jazz that muggles like doing in mafia games

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2210 (isolation #31) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:11 pm

ok

i ask because i would feel bad about defending you only to have you lurk to end game and have it turn out you're actually scum and i'm an idiot for derailing the wagon on you

newtolia is mnemonicdevice

actually i had a rather minute town read on otolia for the way the end of D1 played out. specifically his aggression towards varsoon post-claim and some of the ways he was interacting with sakura towards the end of D1

not particularly strong though, and mnemonic's play this game reminds me a lot of how he plays scum (even if he says he claims he's a changed man)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2212 (isolation #32) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:13 pm

In post 993, Otolia wrote:2. Varsoon is a liability, he lied about his abilities before L-1, then got caught and admitted said lie. Now he is saying he can proves his alignment by tomorrow. I do believe there is a strong possibility he is town (and a PR at that), but I can't feel but intrigued as to why he decided to act before L-1. So far, he has not given town enough to trust him. If he is indeed town-aligned, he has fucked up immensely but still acts as if he were the sole person able to help town. This is incredibly arrogant and foolish for someone who succumbs to the first wagon in a Large game. I think lynching him is the safest play and it's the one I advocate. But consensus needs to be achieved regarding his actions. And at that point, I believe his death by lynch or Vig would be better than his death by NK. In the first case, we control and people are held accountable, in the second, we don't really know. What if he is killed by someone and we can't see his alignment or his previous abilities ? There is too much breadcrumb left by Varsoon for me to ignore and move on to another case. As such I shall remain on his wagon until people start acting rationally.

i thought this and 1015 were kinda town~ish if you kinda squint and look at it from a 45 degree angle

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2214 (isolation #33) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:14 pm

i suppose it could also come from scum who doesn't believe varsoon has a verifiable claim? i dunno. seems a weird push when sakura pretty much backed off of varsoon when he claimed confirmable role

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2215 (isolation #34) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:17 pm

In post 831, Varsoon wrote:Look, I know there's a whoooole bunch of shit going around today.
But here's something I can actually prove:
I will be confirmed town tomorrow.
If I'm not, run me up for lynch.

In post 839, Sakura Hana wrote:
Unvote
Vote: Otolia

I swear to god if you're lying again im power lynching you tomorrow.

playing the game where i randomly quote stuff that happened earlier in the game and someone else tells me whether it means anything

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2220 (isolation #35) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:23 pm

In post 2217, Seohyun wrote:why is it that in the games i've been in, apathetic, 'im going to be lynched' players are always scum?
My perception is probably heavily skewed now on that behavior

it's an anti-town trait. it's not necessarily a scum trait

i mean, honestly, it's not behaviour i like to encourage but it's something you just gotta deal with and i've been there before so i can't really chastise someone for it

sometimes shit happens

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2221 (isolation #36) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:23 pm

who do you think is scum, seohyun?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2228 (isolation #37) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:31 pm

btw thor, one thing i'm interested in, you can feel free to not answer this question if you don't think it's relevant, but i'll ask anyway

do you think there are any defining differences in your town and scum games?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2234 (isolation #38) » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:45 pm

In post 2230, Seohyun wrote:flub

could you elaborate on this one a little

it's probably a little different for me because i read through D1 paying close attention to flips and stuff and you've been in the game since the beginning so you wouldn't have noticed it, but he's actually one of my stronger town reads, partially for the way he interacted with sakura and partially for the strong-headed approach to the game i saw in multiple places D1 that didn't really look like scum pushing an agenda

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:07 pm

In post 2231, mnemonicdevice wrote:We need a lynch, even though I don't quite see the logic in this wagon:

VOTE: THOR

btw if there is group-scum on the thor wagon right now, i think this is it (partially because i have a not-group-scum read on the rest of the wagon and partially because this vote feels off to me)

i realise it's a compromise vote, it's just the phrasing here makes me think he was never really interested in the noddy lynch, which makes me wonder what he's been doing today

and the noddy wagon was 6 compared to thor's 7 at the time so it's not like a compromise was absolutely necessary at the time

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:09 pm

i mean i suppose it depends on whether noddy is actually town, but eh

that vote (timing/reasoning) just looked out-of-place to me

zMuffinMan · Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:12 pm

that said, given the position scum is in at the moment, if thor flips scum, i'll feel less bad about that

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2239 (isolation #42) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:53 am

it should also be noted that thor is functionally L-1 because ika (assuming he's around) is going to mindlessly quick-hammer as soon as it hits actual L-1

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2240 (isolation #43) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:26 am

btw if Thor is scum, ZZZX is probably town

also, i feel i should reiterate / explain this...

the asterisks in my first reads list next to copper/gork were because i think one of them is likely SK. formerfish was not a town kill, and i think whoever shot him was specifically aiming for scum... there are a number of people i'm thinking are unlikely to have made this shot as SK, but more to the point, both copper/gork expressed concern that formerfish lurking meant he's scum and i don't recall anyone else even acknowledging this (i may have missed it)

just in case i die tonight, i wanted to get this out there to think about. i probably wouldn't go SK hunting until 2 more group-scum die, but keep it in mind further down the line

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2243 (isolation #44) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:47 am

yeah i realised that i misread your question to me after i posted but i just never went back to correct it because, tbh, it was a shit question anyway

i'm clearly not calling you a sacred cow that shouldn't be defiled, as evidenced by the fact i'm still pushing you - i said i would be a bit sad if you turned out to be town and i pushed a lynch on you while VLA, it's not going to stop me wanting you dead

i've read the entire game. what i was paying special attention to, actually, was who sakura called town and why. she never called you town that i can remember. or if she did it was a passing mention, at best. i don't consider that buddying. you keep referencing on point where sakura said she agreed with something you wrote as buddying that somehow points to you being town. i call bullshit. though feel free to go back and show me other evidence of sakura buddying you (i can't really do the opposite because i can't show you something i'm pretty sure doesn't exist).

i'm not particularly interested in getting into a debate with you about the so-called "lie". i was just telling you what i saw in your push about that "lie". the reason i call it mechanical is you're acting like elusive was a scumsmurf out to get you because she "lied" about something, but the way you were doing this felt like a robotic "lynch all liars" scenario rather than considering possible misunderstandings, misinterpretations, etc. the constant accusations of "dodging" etc didn't make sense, either. your entire case on elusive was essentially "she lied about something that could be fact-checked and i think she's scum for this". meh.

i'm calling your push on antihero simplistic because it was. there was no depth to it, it's essentially an accusation that scum are not going to read their buddy's posts (i don't think this is true), and sakura didn't read anti's post therefore he's scum (even if the first point was true, there's nothing to suggest scum read every town player's post).

In post 2241, Thor665 wrote:Meaningless unless you're arguing there's only one scum faction

i am, actually. i think it's a simple SK+scum+town setup. i'm also 99% sure noddy isn't SK

i suppose it could be multi-scum, but until i see evidence of such, i'm not going to care about it.

In post 2241, Thor665 wrote:I don't understand what further evidence I need of them being scumballs than voting a wagon I find it scummy to be voting.

i was more asking which players you were specifically referring to. are all three of them scum?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2244 (isolation #45) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:48 am

In post 2242, Thor665 wrote:Yeah...that's called an obvious scum driven wagon

who is the scum driving your wagon?

can i get a picture of what your current reads are?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2248 (isolation #46) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:01 am

9 hours

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2249 (isolation #47) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:24 am

In post 2241, Thor665 wrote:If there were I would have already covered them up.
Any differences that exist I, by definition, must be unaware of.
Apparently it's "being mechanical" ?

btw, i don't like using the word mechanical, but i'm hard-pressed to find a better word to describe play that reads like someone looking at actions and describing them almost objectively as "scummy" or "town" without considering alternative explanations or underlying motivations or anything like that

i've described it as superficial and hollow and other terms before, but whatever. they all mean the same thing, at least insofar as i'm using them

i don't see a genuine desire to find scum in your approach to the game, so much as an agenda you're pushing

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2251 (isolation #48) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:55 am

In post 2241, Thor665 wrote:Meaningless unless you're arguing there's only one scum faction.
Empty and not pro-town but assuredly pro-survival.

btw, on this, unless every time you've mentioned sakura "buddying" you as a reason to think you're town you've been doing it facetiously, there's a certain dissonance in this statement.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2252 (isolation #49) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:55 am

the first line, not the second

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2253 (isolation #50) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:53 am

i may or may not be on before deadline (3am now)

reminder about deadline in big, bold letters

DEADLINE: (expired on 2015-04-04 19:15:00)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2255 (isolation #51) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:27 am

you make me a sad panda

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2256 (isolation #52) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:44 am

one thing that's currently bothering me. i could potentially see noddy scum IF it's multiscum and he's not-sakura-scum, but even then i think i prefer a thor lynch

anyway, night

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:44 am

i have some thoughts on the game i'll probably get to later

i think these are town...

gork, copper, pisskop, varsoon
antihero, fuzzy, seohyun

pending stuff. rest to be sorted / reassessed

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:45 am

In post 2277, Varsoon wrote:Well, Thor is cleared.
I JK'd him last night.

what exactly do you think this setup is?

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:58 am

i mean what i said

possibilities i'm considering at the moment:

15:3:3 - i believe this could be the case here and i'll get around to why in a bit
16:4:1 - also a possibility
15:5:1 - probably unlikely unless there's a lot of town power (and if that's the case, i'm not so sure this would have passed balance/normalcy review by NRG)

i don't really understand why you said thor is cleared

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:12 pm

In post 2285, Varsoon wrote:Oh, I was assuming there was just a reaaaally big scumteam instead of multiball.
/shrugs?

the formerfish kill was not a town kill (a town vig would have been all over you yesterday calling you a SK)

it was either SK or other scum

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:14 pm

i suppose pulling a feu et vol is also possible? going to leave that one aside and assume it didn't happen for now

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:28 pm

In post 2289, Gorkington wrote:Stats are disagreeing with you here.

a lot of the reason i think it could be 15:3:3 has to do with the doubt i expressed in my last post of yesterday (i was wrong about the interactions, but i started thinking noddy was part of a different scum faction to sakura)

i think noddy was accidentally hinting at being part of a 3-man team in some areas. notably only ever having three scum reads and also stuff like

In post 796, notscience wrote:one scum down two to go

which i initially paid no heed to (figured it was awkward phrasing meant to be something like "i've found one scum now i'm looking for the second") but i'm not so sure anymore

towards the end of the day he wrote something similar ("scum one down scum two to go" followed by saying scum was in 2 people - otolia/sakura)

it would also explain the single kill last night (even though i can think of other explanations for this, which include thor being JKed among other things)

i may or may not be over-analysing things here

would you consider beating the ever-living smurf out of thor tonight?

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:42 pm

i'll probably just work off town-read POE and wait until we get another scum flip or multiple night kills before thinking about it any further (though it kind of is important to think about since it changes the dynamics of the game entirely but meh)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2328 (isolation #60) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:19 pm

In post 2317, Marquis wrote:night 1 had vig shot and othermaf/sk, two deaths both scum

night 2 had maf or othermaf/sk, no vig, one death town

jailkeep on thor night 2

preeeeeeeetty sure thor is still scum. the way the wagons drifted in between near the end and how thor and notty both only voted each other for "survivalism" feels like doublescum trapped between a rock and a hard place

meh

i don't really see them as scum together, and surely scum could make a better argument than "survivalism" on someone they actually know to be scum

i don't _really_ think thor is town (at the very least, i don't have any sort of town read on him and i could see him as SK or part of a separate scum team) but i'm not sure he's the correct play today

In post 2320, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Night 1 seems to point that the Mafia scum team of Sakura/ FF / and Notty had no Nk ability on N1

is there anyone that can disprove this theory????

the fact it's a normal game would suggest the more likely scenario is their kill was somehow blocked. i have an alternate theory that's incredibly far-fetched and unlikely but chances are their kill was interfered with somehow

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2341 (isolation #61) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:06 pm

In post 2329, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:That would mean there would be two RB since one was killed nignt one. I would say bus driver since it is now a normal role but this game was prob created before the rule change so I am dismissing that idea.

no, blocked meaning stopped in some way - though blocked was probably a poor choice of wording. i was not suggesting it was necessarily the result of a roleblocker. a protective role can block a kill. a bulletproof can block a kill. even a commuter could block a kill.

action redirection was, and still is, explicitly not normal

In post 2332, Thor665 wrote:Probably two of the people voting you are innocent buffoons - but I find it unlikely for that to hold for all three.

could you give me a full reads list?

or a list of people you think are town and a list of people you think are not so town?

In post 2339, ika wrote:the quesiton is, is it town aligned

almost certainly yes

gambit shenanigans are the only reason it's not absolutely certain, but even then it's kind of stretching

either way, i don't expect varsoon has a long shelf life in this game

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2343 (isolation #62) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:10 pm

it was pretty subtle hinting

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2358 (isolation #63) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:02 am

i don't really think ZZZX is scum from skimming through his ISO but i'm tired so i'll prob look at it properly after sleep

also unless i'm wrong in some assumptions i'm making about the setup, i'm probably not going to lynch any of gork's targets any time soon regardless of whether there's doubt about them - talk about this later in the game, if at all

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2391 (isolation #64) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:51 pm

In post 2363, Thor665 wrote:I literally just gave you a color coded wagon analysis a few days ago. I also literally stated my reads on an entire secondary wagon - that's like 10 reads that I offered in specific ansers to *you* within the week.
Is there someone in particular you feel lost on as to my reads on them? I feel like you're asking me repetitive busy work questions.
Where is this going?
You and I both know I'm offering reads and offering them to you - so why are you acting like I'm not or that, somehow, I'm not sharing reads, or that I'm hedging reads or something? What do you even think I'm doing that causes this question to be asked?

give me a fucking break

you're not this fucking stupid, thor

you've given three town reads (the people on your wagon), six potential scum reads (the other people on your wagon + the people on the fuzzy wagon) and no read on the rest of the game

am i to take it that this means you have town reads on every other player in the game? no scum reads elsewhere?

clarify

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2392 (isolation #65) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:54 pm

also you gave those reads

yesterday

unless your reads are so static that nothing changes between day phases with a scum flip, i don't see how what i asked is unreasonable at all

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2393 (isolation #66) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:19 pm

oh, btw, i figured i'd respond to this since why not?

Spoiler: thor 2257

In post 2378, Gorkington wrote:
Gorkington wrote:And you think amazing scumThor is going to dumbtunnel Antihero despite a metacase defending him and an inevitable huge backlash upon a mislynch after two of his scummates die N1?
Yeah. Not super convincing to me.
There's also this.

for the record, i genuinely believe that he either misinterpreted the meta arguments or thought they were weak, and that this happened regardless of his alignment

you can't really argue "why would scum thor do this?" if you're suggesting town thor did it

i mean, either he thought the arguments were weak/wrong or he didn't - unless the argument is scum-thor only goes for easy mislynches, in which case, meh

(plus you're kind of exaggerating how long thor was on antihero after the meta stuff was brought up)

In post 2382, Gorkington wrote:boon, zzzx, seo, ika, md have less than 60 posts.
Can we please off some dead weight before we get rid of someone who's actively contributing and can give us more information by actually playing the game? I don't think this is unreasonable after we've just nailed three scum in a row.

i'm half in agreement with this

though i kinda think seohyun is more likely town than scum

same for ZZZX

ika i'm meh on, had a vague~ish town read on house and a vague~ish town read on ika's earlier posts but since then he's just gone into lurk mode

other two i could legitimately see as scum

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2395 (isolation #67) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:22 pm

In post 2394, Thor665 wrote:I've given more than that, Fuzzy and Gork immediately spring to mind.

5* then

woo

why are you so reluctant to just break down your thoughts on the entire game?

it's not that big an ask

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2396 (isolation #68) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:24 pm

why are you voting ZZZX actually?

he wasnt on your wagon or the fuzzy wagon

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2401 (isolation #69) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:26 pm

so you do have scum reads outside of the people you listed yesterday, yet it's unreasonable for me to ask for your reads on the entire game

yeah

that makes perfect sense

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2402 (isolation #70) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:28 pm

a recap of the conversation so far:

muffin: reads list please
thor: i gave reads yesterday, it should be clear what my reads are
muffin: so you have no scum reads outside of the ones you listed yesterday?
thor: no
muffin: wait a minute, you're voting ZZZX who wasn't in the ones you listed yesterday
thor: *blush*

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2404 (isolation #71) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:32 pm

it didn't register until i thought about your answer

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2405 (isolation #72) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:33 pm

to be honest, my immediate reaction to your answer was "what a load of smurfing bullsmurf"

it made me forget how inconsistent it was with your current vote

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2408 (isolation #73) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:38 pm

In post 2397, Thor665 wrote:The only town defense for doing the same is "she wasn't reading gak and didn't want to admit to it" which...yeah, is a plausible story, but is *still* well worth attacking someone over it to try to get a read on the slot over it.

nah what i'm suggesting is what happened. she used poor wording to describe the point she was making and you attacked her over the wording rather than the actual content

a brief history of thor v elusive, act 1

elusive: here is a list of all the places you were heavily focusing on choof in the early stages of the game
thor: yeah but you said i made a bad "case"!! prove it!
elusive: this is what i meant by that - specifically that your early-game play was heavily focused on choof and questioning people about choof
thor: show me evidence of this
elusive: i have no idea what more you're asking of me
thor: dodge

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2409 (isolation #74) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:40 pm

In post 2406, Thor665 wrote:So you find my admission of not following up on an easily fact checkable thing to be scummy because it suggests that it slipped my mind for a reason or that I didn't process properly because I'm scuma nd am lying?

yep i was actually going to make that exact joke and call you confirmed scum for being a liar liar pants on fire but i deleted it

the point, however, is that you weren't making an "easily verifiable" error, you were saying something completely inconsistent with your current vote

you are voting someone you didn't give a read on yesterday

yet when i ask for reads, you act like it's ludicrous that i could even consider this question when it should be clear what your reads are from a reads list you gave yesterday (that doesn't include your current vote)

it's inconsistent, not a fact-checkable error

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2411 (isolation #75) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:47 pm

no, that's common sense since of your first 4 posts in the game, the only one that wasn't focused on choof was the vote on varsoon. the fact that she asked you about it is because of this

then you used copper's read specifically on choof to question him, which was another point she brought up

it is not unreasonable for her to think that you spent an abnormal amount of time focused on choof rather than the rest of the game

look, i'm not elusive (clearly) so i'm not exactly the most qualified to have this discussion but if you're acting like what she was saying didn't make sense then no. if your argument is semantically she shouldn't have said "case" then whoop-de-doo

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2412 (isolation #76) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:48 pm

ftr, i did take the time to read over the elusive v you arguments during the night and these are the conclusions i came to

though obviously i could be seen as biased since the arguments are on my slot and i already know how factually accurate they are

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2414 (isolation #77) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:17 pm

In post 2411, zMuffinMan wrote:no, that's common sense since of your first 4 posts in the game, the only one that wasn't focused on choof was the vote on varsoon. the fact that she asked you about it is because of this

then you used copper's read specifically on choof to question him, which was another point she brought up

it is not unreasonable for her to think that you spent an abnormal amount of time focused on choof rather than the rest of the game

look, i'm not elusive (clearly) so i'm not exactly the most qualified to have this discussion but if you're acting like what she was saying didn't make sense then no. if your argument is semantically she shouldn't have said "case" then whoop-de-doo

oh, also, in addition to this, you directly called choof her scum buddy

so i mean... when you say it included multiple posts she asked about choof, what exactly were you expecting?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2456 (isolation #78) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:56 am

In post 2450, Antihero wrote:copper's finally figured out i'm a shit player

took you long enough

i don't think youre shit, anti

In post 2452, Antihero wrote:
In post 2394, Thor665 wrote:Why is the Oka kill SK hunting Mafia and not Mafia hunting SK?

could theoretically be mafia hunting sk, but i've already got the pet theory that scum tripped on the sk bp so that's my guess

i'm not so sure, but if that's the case, i'd assume otolia-slot is SK (though i don't really see why otolia would have shot formerfish given his posts).

i've been kind of assuming whoever shot formerfish had some history with him and was aiming for a scum kill

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2457 (isolation #79) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:02 am

actually

Vote: mnemonic

i doubt there's going to be enough support for a thor lynch today so whatevs

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2518 (isolation #80) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:59 pm

honestly, i don't mind you beating the smurf out of boon except that in worst case scenario, i'd rather thor than boon

one of them is a lot harder to lynch than the other if scum

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2522 (isolation #81) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:11 pm

In post 2458, Thor665 wrote:Are you disagreeing with this?
If so - why?

i don't really want to have a long, drawn-out conversation with you about elusive unless it's going to lead somewhere and, at the very least, i don't think this line of conversation is going anywhere, so i'll reiterate my thoughts here and leave it at that. you can respond with whatever, i'll probably just read it, nod and move on to something else because i don't care enough to continue arguing over something most people don't give a flying smurf about

i don't know everything that was going on in elusive's head, but i do not see an issue with elusive suggesting a lot of your early play was focused on choof. yes, she was asking you questions about it but that is

because

you were focusing on choof...

if you're asking why she might have thought this was scummy, i'm just going to point out that it's probably for the same reason anyone might find focus on a particular player while ignoring a lot of other players scummy (though honestly, stuff like that is so different from the way i think about the game that while i'm used to seeing people make nonsensical arguments, it doesn't make much sense from my own point of view). yes, you were questioned about it. and yes you talked about some other things so it wasn't entirely choof. but i do not really see the issue with her pointing out that you focused a lot on choof and that she thought something was off about this

but none of this is the issue. the point i was talking about was that you made a big deal out of calling her a liar, suggesting she was scummy for lying, etc because she... said you wrote a case on choof. i think you made a big deal out of semantics here and the way you did it didn't look like scum hunting so much as trying to paint what elusive did as scummy without considering anything else or whether that even made sense

i don't think anything you say about this is going to change my mind on it because it is what it is - i am just pointing out that this, among the other attacks you've made this game, are reasons i don't think you're approaching the game in the way you'd approach it if you were town

also, fyi, unless you meant to quote something else, the part you quoted from 1282 doesn't say what you're saying it says... or i'm missing something

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2523 (isolation #82) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:19 pm

In post 2499, Gorkington wrote:I would be shocked if nobody bussed notscience

meh. not particularly a fan of this line of thinking

if it's multiball, meh

if it isn't, it's probably 16:4:1, so there's (most likely) 1 group-scum left and it seems a bit more likely they're off the wagon than on it unless you have a reason to think he was bussed. that said, SK could easily be on it - though there's nothing that says more likely than not

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2525 (isolation #83) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:31 pm

i know, i was just pointing out it's a dangerous line of thinking if you're making assumptions based on it at this point

i'm voting mnem. and that has nothing to do with why i think he's scum. so uh... i agree?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2534 (isolation #84) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:38 am

In post 2532, Antihero wrote:soooo.... guys

what do i win post game if copper turns out to be scum (not-town, however you want to parse it?)

if you give me your address and pay for the shipping, i'll send you a donut

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2535 (isolation #85) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:38 am

just a plain cinnamon one though, i'm not a fucking millionaire

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2539 (isolation #86) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:52 am

it's not, though. look, her first questions to you came as a result of you focusing on choof in 3 out of your first 4 posts. can we agree on that point?

can we agree that her thoughts on your copper stuff were on the basis of you questioning copper specifically about the choof read?

can we agree that you specifically called her scum with choof very early on?

whatever. i don't care

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2540 (isolation #87) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:00 am

like you can't make posts specifically focusing on someone and then when someone asks you questions about it you go, "oh, i'm only focusing so much on it because you're asking me questions about my focus on it"

or you can, i guess, but i would think that's a rather silly position

*shrug*

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2542 (isolation #88) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:05 am

um, you (and thor) are exaggerating just how many questions she actually asked

though feel free to go back and find all those questions she asked (especially since most of them came after he explicitly called them scum together)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2545 (isolation #89) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:08 am

indeed

well if it matters, i'll do it for you and thor can find any i'm missing if i'm missing any

but i'd rather just drop this line of conversation since it's not exactly productive

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2549 (isolation #90) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:23 am

In post 2547, Thor665 wrote:Sure - but are you claiming that's a valid issue?

that was her entire issue with you

at least before you started questioning copper on the basis of the choof read

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2551 (isolation #91) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:28 am

In post 246, elusive wrote:Oh Thor in post #29, why do you ask Choof questions about his RVS vote on a player he knows from another game? Why? I would like to know you're reasoning behind that line of questioning that seems at best useless in the RVS stage especially towards a newbie. Do you usually choose what could be termed easy targets?

In post 334, elusive wrote:Thor, why would a player choose to jump on a flash wagon? Does not that signify sheep mentality and more suspicious are those that jump on such wagons.

In post 362, elusive wrote:Thor, who is my bud?

this one isn't technically a question about choof, but it pertains to the conversation

423: a summary of her issues with thor; specifically attacking choof early on while not paying any attention to anyone voting varsoon

430 and 431: questioning the attack on copper on the basis of the choof read.

and then there's 511 where she summarises the whole thing

TL;DR
(IN CAPS FOR GOOD MEASURE)

THE FOCUS IN YOUR EARLY POSTS ON CHOOF INSTEAD OF PAYING ATTENTION TO ANY OF THE PEOPLE VOTING VARSOON WAS THE REASON SHE TOOK ISSUE WITH YOU.

SHE QUESTIONED YOU BECAUSE OF THIS.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2560 (isolation #92) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:36 am

In post 2554, Gorkington wrote:If you want to endlessly get angry trying to sort through Thor by shouting at him you'll probably just end up hating yourself and you're potentially preventing Thor from spending more time on actually scumhunting right now if he is town.

i don't see how i'm preventing him from scum hunting, given i've been saying i want to drop it

i'm just not going to bother responding, i guess

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2561 (isolation #93) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:42 am

actually, one last thing because 2558 and 2559 are borderline retarded:

whether or not it's a valid case, i wouldn't suggest you're necessarily a scummy liar liar pants on fire for thinking there could be a point there

because, you know... i'm not a fucking moron

(but that's just me)

good night

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2579 (isolation #94) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:27 pm

and not a single tear was shed

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2585 (isolation #95) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:55 am

wait, isn't boon meant to be a notorious no-shits-given hammerer

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2586 (isolation #96) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:57 am

i love you, antihero-senpai

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2604 (isolation #97) » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:35 am

so boon is scum

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2605 (isolation #98) » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:36 am

probably a good idea to wait for everyone to check in before lynching though

zMuffinMan · Post Post #2606 (isolation #99) » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:40 am

also, technically only one night kill again but i guess whether or not it's multiscum will be resolved after we lynch boon

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:42 am

he targeted boon

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:32 pm

i would rather wait to see what boon flips before drawing conclusions about who's scum - it's kind of important, actually, since it's the difference between looking for a SK, looking for mafia, or looking for a second scum team

plus i'm thinking second scum-team flip is kinda likely here unless there's missing kills both the last two nights (oh, and btw, if there is a second scum team and thus no missing kills, i can basically prove i'm town)

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:13 pm

In post 2646, Thor665 wrote:Eh. As far as I'm concerned that only really matters for scanning his iso for info as to what sort of clears we're offering. Like, I clear Droog in reference to Boon - and I'll agree my clear then becomes conditional on Boon's flip, but that doesn't really affect the ability to discuss the Droog clear, for instance.

well it kind of does if he flips, say, mafia and we're looking at a 16:4:1 setup - i mean yes, that would clear him of being scum with boon, but so what?

nothing is stopping you from conversing if you so wish, i am just going to refrain til i see the flip and know what i'm looking for, since it entirely changes the dynamics of what i'm looking for in any remaining scum

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:15 pm

likewise if he flips SK - no real point clearing people based on boon interactions

otoh, if you want to make an argument for droog being clear based on a boon flip if he flips, say, werewolf, then you can if you want to

i would just not see the point until it's clear what boon is

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:35 pm

it doesn't actually matter, it's not like anything he says is going to change the outcome of today

on that note,

Vote: Boon

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:41 pm

btw that's L-2 for anyone not keeping track

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:13 pm

omg

fine i'll go find the quotes

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:19 pm

D1:

In post 312, Gorkington wrote:im gonna go get copper during the night and show him the true meaning of pain.

In post 664, Gorkington wrote:You're lucky I have an appointment with Copper tonight or I'd get you instead.

In post 1004, Gorkington wrote:Copper's my pet project.

D2:

In post 1111, Gorkington wrote:I'm gonna get Pisskop tonight.
Copper is town.

In post 1162, Gorkington wrote:Aren't you supposed to be mad at me right now pisskop? Or are you distracted by how convenient Otalia wagon is?
Or are you just shitting your pants at me coming to get you N2?

In post 1167, Gorkington wrote:Mhmmm. RIP pisskop.

In post 1353, Gorkington wrote:[Also, don't get mad pisskop, I'm just kidding. You're still not making it to D3 though.]

In post 2085, Gorkington wrote:viii) I will go and get pisskop and beat him up until he's dead during night cycle

D3:

In post 2283, Gorkington wrote:Pisskop is town.

In post 2304, Gorkington wrote:
muffin wrote:would you consider beating the ever-living smurf out of thor tonight?
I decide to beat up people in my own way.
Boon's looking like he needs a good rough-housing atm.

In post 2507, Gorkington wrote:Boon's mine.

In post 2519, Gorkington wrote:Boon's lurking is punishable only by my fists.

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:25 pm

(ftr, the reason i said i could virtually prove i'm town is that i'm pretty sure i'm the only one in the game that knew gork was a hider and i figured it out N2, see: my reads list D3 before gork had even posted, as well as literally everything i said to gork D3)

(his crumbs were really smurfing obvious to anyone paying attention and i played along with the whole "beating the smurf out of X" thing because, well, that's synonymous with giving someone a "hiding")

zMuffinMan · Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:30 pm

oh, also 2519 was in direct response to my 2518 so it looks like:

In post 2518, zMuffinMan wrote:honestly, i don't mind you beating the smurf out of boon except that in worst case scenario, i'd rather thor than boon

one of them is a lot harder to lynch than the other if scum

In post 2519, Gorkington wrote:I never go back on a decision.
Boon's lurking is punishable only by my fists.

as in, 100%, he hid behind boon, no questions

zMuffinMan · Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:07 am

ill be back later today

just dropping in to say i think it's likely there's a sole SK left and the first people id be looking at are anyone with a history with formerfish - i still think that was a kill aimed at hitting scum and i think it was from someone who's played with him before (or possibly from someone scared that formerfish, if scum, would take them out or otherwise interfere with them, but either way... someone who's played with him before)

could be thor, i guess

zMuffinMan · Sat May 16, 2015 6:03 pm

In post 3466, The Bulge wrote:Actually Marquis did try to kill Gorkington. Strongman doesn't kill Hider, though, since it's a commute, not a BP.

since when does strongman not kill commuters?

zMuffinMan · Sat May 16, 2015 6:04 pm

is that new?

zMuffinMan · Sat May 16, 2015 6:38 pm

NAR doesn't have a clause for strongman, unless you're suggesting it falls under miscellaneous, in which case protections also take precedence over it

*shrug*