In post 323, pieguyn wrote:we spent all our tokens on games btw. i actually wouldn't have minded rolling scum here, especially with this player list (i wouldn't need to do anything insane in order to win if i was scum here) - but fortunately it didn't matter
We did too.
Not really thrilled with how we distributed in hindsight. We spent two to roll Marquis scum, but then he ended up replacing out anyway... blegh. Spent one on Sotty town in nightless and two on me. In hindsight I would have taken those scum tokens and maybe used them to avoid playing in nightless at all.
I also wish the mandatory theme wasn't what it was. Namely huge, and required.
In post 300, zoraster wrote:I don't really see how it rewards bad play. You still got lynched in one game. That's punishment enough. As to him having a history, that's normally something I'd care about in doing a game. But it's not something I can possibly hope to care about in Team Mafia. There are just too many moving parts, and I'm not going to try to step in on that.
You SHOULD care and should try to avoid it. It was also bullshit because your team cannot swap living players except D1/D2, yet GreyICE replaced in late D2 and I couldn't do anything about it unless I wanted to wait around for one of my teammates to be dead?
That's just asinine.
It's not that I don't care. It's that I don't think it's an appropriate thing to be concerned about in the context of Team Mafia. You both should have been capable of behaving for a single game. There are always people we don't get along with and that we try to avoid, but it's Team Mafia and there's a good chance you'll end up with a difficult person. He could have easily ended up in your game to start with, and I'd still accept that and not step in to separate you.
And Magua spent a great deal of time stepping in to try to resolve it.
In post 312, Zachrulez wrote:Bussing also disadvantages the scum in a nightless game Metal, particularly because it helps town get scum lynches when they'd otherwise need unanimous town support for.
That's mafia theory. What method the scum employs to achieve their win condition is irrelevant from this discussion.
Issue here is how
1) current replacement system is skewed greatly towards townsided, because town will benefit more for choosing an appropriate replacement while scum usually don't because "too unethical" or "lurking is a scum tactic" or whatever reason
2) Reck mentioned how players with conflicts were able to hop into a game while others lacked the privilege, effectively trapping the other into a simply toxic game state (do I have your plea correct?)
For what it's worth, Empire (then Zar) spent 3 tokens on Vanilla Nightless to be town and rolled scum. Which he was convinced was a mod error, but certainly wasn't. One issue was he got unlucky. The other issue is that all but 4 teams spent tokens on being town in that game. It had the most tokens per player spent of any of the games. I guess lots agreed that it's a town sided setup.
Hah, I've gotta say, whenever Marquis looks like he's experimenting with his playstyle (like he did here with all the happy and the !s), that's a rock solid scumtell for him. I'm pretty sure I called that early in our PT
Players are never going to be modkilled for replacing out, sorry. That's a suggestion of someone who has not considered the full ramifications on Team Mafia as a whole.
In post 331, Quilford wrote:Hah, I've gotta say, whenever Marquis looks like he's experimenting with his playstyle (like he did here with all the happy and the !s), that's a rock solid scumtell for him. I'm pretty sure I called that early in our PT
In post 328, Metal Sonic wrote:1) current replacement system is skewed greatly towards townsided, because town will benefit more for choosing an appropriate replacement while scum usually don't because "too unethical" or "lurking is a scum tactic" or whatever reason
I think scum could just as easily use that to their benefit to recruit strong scum players or do appropriate WIFOM switches. The fact it didn't happen enough doesn't make the system bad.
2) Reck mentioned how players with conflicts were able to hop into a game while others lacked the privilege, effectively trapping the other into a simply toxic game state (do I have your plea correct?)
What would be different in your proposed system? Say Grey was first in a replacement list and a team in Reck's game needed a replacement. Wouldn't that force Grey and Reck in the same game? Even worse, say Reck's team needed a replacement - your system would force them in the same team!
In post 312, Zachrulez wrote:Bussing also disadvantages the scum in a nightless game Metal, particularly because it helps town get scum lynches when they'd otherwise need unanimous town support for.
That's mafia theory. What method the scum employs to achieve their win condition is irrelevant from this discussion.
Issue here is how
1) current replacement system is skewed greatly towards townsided, because town will benefit more for choosing an appropriate replacement while scum usually don't because "too unethical" or "lurking is a scum tactic" or whatever reason
2) Reck mentioned how players with conflicts were able to hop into a game while others lacked the privilege, effectively trapping the other into a simply toxic game state (do I have your plea correct?)
3) town really should win the normal. Really
Nightless isn't the same as a regular game where you can just nightkill the town looking players. You actually have to deal with them for the whole game. The scum's real power in a nightless game is literally their voting power the closer you get to the end. All bussing does is force you to get additional lynches, and you can see how nigh impossible that was.
My point is that planning to bus your team in nightless commits you to lynching almost every town player. It should be obvious to see how crazy that notion is.
In post 331, Quilford wrote:Hah, I've gotta say, whenever Marquis looks like he's experimenting with his playstyle (like he did here with all the happy and the !s), that's a rock solid scumtell for him. I'm pretty sure I called that early in our PT
<3
I was aggressively wrong about 99% of Reck's game, UT's game, and Sleepy's game AND even a signidicant portion of my game too but I damn well called Marquis. and Titus too. and don't you forget it
If I had to do it over again, I think I'd stick with my original plan which was nightless with a D3+ factional kill for scum. That lets the scum deal with at least one too town to lynch player, and in Team Mafia, town generally have an edge so it's appropriate.
In post 330, zoraster wrote:For what it's worth, Empire (then Zar) spent 3 tokens on Vanilla Nightless to be town and rolled scum. Which he was convinced was a mod error, but certainly wasn't. One issue was he got unlucky. The other issue is that all but 4 teams spent tokens on being town in that game. It had the most tokens per player spent of any of the games. I guess lots agreed that it's a town sided setup.
lawl, I was convinced that it was scum sided and asserted in my team pt that I must roll scum in the nightless.
It worked out pretty well but 2 lynchbaits became conftown that survived until lylo -________-
I DID blunder, not shirking responsibility here, but the challenge was raised 10x which was not actually competitive and any other (weaker) scum team would probably have grogged and slam dunked even faster
In post 343, zoraster wrote:If I had to do it over again, I think I'd stick with my original plan which was nightless with a D3+ factional kill for scum. That lets the scum deal with at least one too town to lynch player, and in Team Mafia, town generally have an edge so it's appropriate.
I don't think nightless is unbalanced per say, but it is when it's played on a site with the meta for bussing that ours has.
It's literally the one game where the love for bussing just eats a scum team alive.
In post 331, Quilford wrote:Hah, I've gotta say, whenever Marquis looks like he's experimenting with his playstyle (like he did here with all the happy and the !s), that's a rock solid scumtell for him. I'm pretty sure I called that early in our PT
<3
I was aggressively wrong about 99% of Reck's game, UT's game, and Sleepy's game AND even a signidicant portion of my game too but I damn well called Marquis. and Titus too. and don't you forget it
<3
I called Marquis easily (truly, the FF replacement made it 100% sure. I KNOW that FF hates scum). Titus I was waffle. Vezok got her.
Team Mafia is townsided overall, perhaps we should be picking more slightly scumsided set-ups to compensate. If town wins the last game scum will just have a single win out of 6 games, and I don't think that's an appropriate win-rate.
