Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[Shinobi]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

[Lapsa]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

meh... screw those guys. doesn't hinder with case itself

[Thor665]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

I fully support a counterwagon if you can make one happen.

[Fro99er]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

I fully support a counterwagon if you can make one happen.

You hated my Plotinus counterwagon earlier.

[Shinobi]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

I fully support a counterwagon if you can make one happen.

What do you think of Plotinus? iirc you haven't given a read on him yet.

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

I fully support a counterwagon if you can make one happen.

You hated my Plotinus counterwagon earlier.

[Shinobi]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

meh... screw those guys. doesn't hinder with case itself

/shrug

Why is abuse absent from this list? You only addressed the first two people I talked about.

[Lapsa]

Why is abuse absent from this list? You only addressed the first two people I talked about.

good catch, my bad: screw abuse

read #372 incorrectly - mixed up meaning of Thor's case with meaning of Dino's wagon

rushed forward wanting to clarify that and made mistake that can be seen as association tell

I think I read that as unrelated to wagon. as if you were saying that you are sorting out general read on him not just his presence on wagon

why did you put abuse in separate paragraph? seems that you ain't sure about Toffee either

is there anything that bothers you about my interaction with abuse?

[Thor665]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

Disliking a case is different than disliking a counterwagon, and disliking you unvoting a good wagon to push an alternate is different than someone who appears to dislike a wagon pushing an alternate. You seemed to grok a good wagon, Shinobi never has - thus has a different bar to leap.

What do you think of Plotinus? iirc you haven't given a read on him yet.

I have stated that the case on him is bad.
My own read on him is 'slight town' at best. But no scum lean there at all.

[Shinobi]

CD's jump onto it was pretty weak.
Toffee isn't even reading the game and is sitting on it, though I'm not sure that's scummy at all.

I'm still sorting abuse atm though.

Disliking a case is different than disliking a counterwagon, and disliking you unvoting a good wagon to push an alternate is different than someone who appears to dislike a wagon pushing an alternate. You seemed to grok a good wagon, Shinobi never has - thus has a different bar to leap.

What do you think of Plotinus? iirc you haven't given a read on him yet.

I have stated that the case on him is bad.
My own read on him is 'slight town' at best. But no scum lean there at all.

I must have missed that, then, though I'm still fine with voting where I'm voting regardless.

Why is abuse absent from this list? You only addressed the first two people I talked about.

good catch, my bad: screw abuse

read #372 incorrectly - mixed up meaning of Thor's case with meaning of Dino's wagon

rushed forward wanting to clarify that and made mistake that can be seen as association tell

I think I read that as unrelated to wagon. as if you were saying that you are sorting out general read on him not just his presence on wagon

why did you put abuse in separate paragraph? seems that you ain't sure about Toffee either

Because I can talk to abuse while Toffee is completely absent. Sure, they're both question marks, but I felt like abuse was more deserving of making a point on than a nonentity that I can't really comment on at this point in time.

is there anything that bothers you about my interaction with abuse?

Not really, I just wanted to know why you didn't talk about him. Your answer seems fine.

[Zoronos]

I like this Lapsa fellow and shall pronounce him towny. Mostly because his posts make me laugh.

Cthulu, I'd really like to chat with you some more about CB. You stated that Lapsa was misreping him (CB did kinda call for Lapsa to be shot by a vig), and you didn't like Abuse's attack on him. ([post]285[/[post])
Can you expand on that for me? I'd like to hear more about why you think that.

Do you think this is an instance of scum trying to create a counter-wagon, or discredit a townie? Or just incidental scummy posting? Some other option?

So the abuse thing first... He's admitted that the whole "HUGE RED FLAG" thing was a mistake. Admitting a mistake seems a townish thing to do so in that case, I'm not scumreading him for it. It looked bad at the time,, though. I'll chalk that up as a misread for now.

Lapsa's looking better to me, he's actually putting effort into the game. About the "misrep", I'm a little embarrassed about that. I was phone posting at the time, and a little drunk, and I didn't take note of what made me think that. Looking back, I'm not seeing it. In any case, I am liking Lapsa's participation more now and I'm not interested in voting him today at this time.

So, previously you had a 'null towniah' (I assuming that meant null townish?) read on CB. Has that changed? Why, if so?

Secondary question - Who are your other scum reads, besides MathDino?

[Thor665]

So, previously you had a 'null towniah' (I assuming that meant null townish?)

I'm assuming you mean "I assuming" as "I'm assuming"

[Zoronos]

Yes. Me grammar much good.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

So, previously you had a 'null towniah' (I assuming that meant null townish?) read on CB. Has that changed? Why, if so?

Secondary question - Who are your other scum reads, besides MathDino?

Yeah, that's proximity of the 'a' and 's' characters combined with fat fingers.

No, my read on CB hasn't changed.

TBF, I don't have any other real strong scum reads - I'm still wary of Plotinus, though.

[Mathdino]

Difference is that I'm not going to ask that anyone alter their writing style for this game, and I don't think any comprehensible writing style can be considered anti-town. I didn't vote him because I thought he was pushing an agenda, or because he was being anti-town, I voted him for weirding me out.
Lapsa I voted for being anti-town, thus I don't really care if he's usually anti-town, I want him to stop active lurking so I can read him.

So one guy posts in a weird way and you research him to see if it's normally weird, decide it isn't, and vote him.
The other guy posts in a weird way and you decide not to research him because he's just anti-town and it bugs you.

I *really* fail to follow this distinction.
Can you explain it any other way, or are we just agreeing to disagree that there's any difference at all except in how you reacted to them?

I mean, when one "happy" post causes a meta dive and multiple "pants on head" posts cause 'well, he must be anti-town always, vote, vote, vote" it doesn't jive with me.

(...)

Which read to me as "past scum actions cannot be held against me if I've updated my reads."
If you accept that past scum actions can be held against you, then I have no further disagreement here.
If you think your past Frogger actions are somehow no longer scummy in light of your new stance (like Zoronos) then, yes, I have an issue.

Alright sorry for not being active, spending all my time on this game responding to questions is killing some of my drive. I still promise to create original content next post that I don't have to answer to stuff.

What you're missing is that voting Frogger was intended as an early scumread vote to apply pressure and see what happens, get a read. The vote on Lapsa was specifically intended to get him to start posting and then policy him if he didn't (I didn't expect that to actually happen). A vote for weird writing won't make the guy stop writing funnily, but a vote for not posting may make a guy start posting. Does that make sense? I wanted the anti-townness to stop REGARDLESS of Lapsa's alignment, while I had no investment in Frogger changing his posting style. So I put little effort into a meta dive to determine his alignment because I'm better at reading people than I am at meta diving. And it looks like other people provided meta information without me.

On the latter, yeah I agree (I'm assuming you mean 'scummy' instead of 'scum'?). To further clarify, I think to me it would be incredibly bad if I were still reading Frogger SOLELY on that entrance post even though we're 16 pages in with tons of other info, and Frogger seemed to think for a second that was what I was doing. I stand by the original vote as a p1&2 best possible vote under the circumstances.

texcat case stilllll coming up.

[Mathdino]

This is texcat's ISO after her first vote and before my original vote on her.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: toolenduso

Sheep of Mathdino, followed by a backing off of his vote, followed by defensiveness.

My problem with this is the double IIOA/misrep. What texcat describes as sheeping -> backing off -> defenciveness, I could describe as just having a different view on Frogger than mine but a similar enough one to vote him. One of the easiest things scum can do early on is go after the wagons or 'sheeping' votes. Not a fan.

Yeah, I hadn't looked at the meta when I voted him. It was the tone of the post. After looking at it the meta part isn't so convincing to me, but hey it's page one.

I would call this a backing off from your vote.

This is what I meant when I said her argument was stretchy. When asked to actually elaborate on her argument she quoted what I think is just a normal looking post with 0 analysis.

Thor clarified somewhat in 28 that his 26 was @ Tool.

Platinus, That's the 2nd time you've mentioned your ability to read Frogger. What's up with that? Is there anybody else you think you can sort?

And then lastly the Plotinus question really messed with me. One of the biggest scum tells I use is asking bad questions that don't really move the game forward but make it look like you're keeping the discussion going and asking specific and pointed questions. This in particular doesn't really show much of a desire to sort Plotinus or Frogger, seems more like just going around asking "wtf are you doing".

63, texcat's response to my vote post, I personally find unsatisfying. And looking at the rest of her ISO, I'm not seeing anything that would override my original read on her. The tool push has a TON of confirmation bias and

she's still provided ZERO reads on anyone except tool.

Currently would be into a texcat/BBT/CB scumteam actually. Willing to vote texcat or CB.

[Mathdino]

I thought I was the only one who thought the Math wagon looked terrible.
\o/

that might very well be the case. even Dino himself hasn't said anything like that yet

It's difficult to comment on my own wagon without succumbing to either OMGUS bias or the aforementioned "anyone who suspects me when I'm town must be town".

Trying to focus on analysing individual players outside of how they interact with me.

I'm assuming the popular consensus is that CD's vote was especially horrible but the problem is, last time I assumed there were 3 mafia in a normal/theme and got lynched for it, the people pushing my wagon on THAT ALONE (repeating that it was a scumslip) were town IIRC. So idk. If anything a CD wagon would look more opportunistic than jumping on me for that assumption. Need to check voting records though since I've mostly forgotten where everyone stands.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Mathdino - I'm not voting you for that alone, I was SC reading you prior to that (see my catch-up post in my ISO). I'm addition to that, I like Thor's case on you. I've acknowledged that the particular point at issue may be confirmation bias on my part as well. Focusing on that point alone isn't doing yourself any favors.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

EBWOP scum reading.

#$%& Android autocorrect.

[Mathdino]

@Mathdino - I'm not voting you for that alone, I was SC reading you prior to that (see my catch-up post in my ISO). I'm addition to that, I like Thor's case on you. I've acknowledged that the particular point at issue may be confirmation bias on my part as well. Focusing on that point alone isn't doing yourself any favors.

In light of that I'm actually more suspicious of your vote now.

[Mathdino]

To clarify, I was townreading CD's jump onto me for the 3 scum assumption since in the past it's usually been town that jump onto people who do that more often than scum.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Mathdino - I'm not voting you for that alone, I was SC reading you prior to that (see my catch-up post in my ISO). I'm addition to that, I like Thor's case on you. I've acknowledged that the particular point at issue may be confirmation bias on my part as well. Focusing on that point alone isn't doing yourself any favors.

In light of that I'm actually more suspicious of your vote now.

Care to explain that, because that makes no sense at all to me. Admitting that one point of a case may be confbias doesn't do a damn thing to the rest of the case as far as I'm aware. You think town doesn't fall prey to confbias?

[Lapsa]

What you're missing is that voting Frogger was intended as an early scumread vote to apply pressure and see what happens, get a read. The vote on Lapsa was specifically intended to get him to start posting and then policy him if he didn't (I didn't expect that to actually happen). A vote for weird writing won't make the guy stop writing funnily, but a vote for not posting may make a guy start posting. Does that make sense?

I wanted the anti-townness to stop REGARDLESS of Lapsa's alignment, while I had no investment in Frogger changing his posting style. So I put little effort into a meta dive to determine his alignment because I'm better at reading people than I am at meta diving.

⁷

And it looks like other people provided meta information without me.

On the latter, yeah I agree (I'm assuming you mean 'scummy' instead of 'scum'?). To further clarify, I think to me it would be incredibly bad if I were still reading Frogger SOLELY on that entrance post even though we're 16 pages in with tons of other info, and Frogger seemed to think for a second that was what I was doing. I stand by the original vote as a p1&2 best possible vote under the circumstances.

7

seems like Abelian group to me. no matter how you put it I end up with

"Frogger's happy writing style is better reason to check meta than Lapsa being anti-town"

Which facts does he strategically get wrong to move the scum win con forwards?

The Frogger meta - as I've said.

Beg pardon? I can see how you might not agree with what I said but I'd very much hesitate to call it wrong. I said it above but in case you skimmed that,

meta is a tool, not a weapon

⁸

. That is, it should support and not work against what I'm trying to point out. The SOLE reason I did the meta was to preemptively make sure/show that the statement "that's just his playstyle, bad reason to vote" is false.

That vote was because of a weird-ass post. Meta supports this just by saying he doesn't constantly make weird-ass posts like that. Mk?

8

is saying "x = scum because meta" more "using meta as a weapon" than scum pushing mislynch via "x = anti-town hence don't care about meta -> policy lynch" ?

1. I did NOT vote Frogger for meta. I decided to vote him, did a meta check to make sure it wasn't a shitty "voting for playstyle" vote, and since I didn't see anything overly similar to his first post, I went and voted him.

I basically only confidently use meta when I'm afraid that the guy I'm voting always does the shit he does

⁹

. If not, then the meta is now irrelevant. Irrelevant to the fact that I just didn't like his post.

9

does this imply you were not afraid of me being anti-town?

# can't help but think that you are still stuck in RVS. is that your meta - being frozen in RVS? does that explain Dinosaur in your user picture?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Mathdino, let me clarify the sequence of events from my perspective.

1. I read you as scummy while catching up.
2. Later, while re-reading your ISO I take note of the 24% comment and switch my vote to you.
3. Someone points out that the observation may be confbias, I agree it may be.
4. I ask myself "Is that enough to unvote a slot I'm scumreading for other reasons?"
5. I conclude that no, it is not.

[toolenduso]

The thing is, I see potential for both Math and Lapsa's wagons to be scum-driven. I don't think I would buy Math and Frogger being partners, so that eliminates some possibilities.

@Frogger: Could you respond to the bolded part below?

-Votes Lapsa again in #94, this time for his fluffposting. At this point that's a sheep.

Note that in #140 he criticizes math for pushing what seems like a policy lynch on Lapsa, despite math having pretty much the same reasoning for voting Lapsa that Frogger used in #94.

[Mathdino]

@CD: Will explain when I have more time.

@Lapsa:
7. That's probably because that statement is precisely what I believe. If Thor and I are unwilling to agree on that, sure, but I feel I've more than adequately explained WHY I believe that.
8. I don't really understand what you're trying to say here, sorry.
9. I don't really understand again, but going off of what I think you're saying: I wasn't afraid that you always pull anti-town shit in other games because regardless of your alignment I wanted you to stop. You can actually see in my texcat vote way back that I was asking you to give thoughts, and you responded without thoughts, so I voted you. Pressure voting, not lynch voting.

Also don't understand the frozen in RVS thing.

Sorry.