Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Soft-spoken]

since nobody is jumping on quill with me atm

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

[Gold Saucer]

I am finally caught up!

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I am stupid tired, but I think I'm going to go for a run and put some of my thoughts together, so in a bit.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I am finally caught up!

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I am stupid tired, but I think I'm going to go for a run and put some of my thoughts together, so in a bit.

I'm here too if you want to talk about stuff!

Nothing major for me to add right now to the thread, but I wanted to talk about the couple of things I found townish from pieguyn:

1) The point where pieguyn started to read us as town (#286. When I read Regfan's #280, I felt like this was the "point-of-no-return" post where it's like, the townieness is so blatant you'd have to be straight up bad if town to misread our slot. Pieguyn reading that and coming to the realization just felt like the right thing at the right time and I don't think she'd have backed off at this point if scum (she'd have probably done it earlier or not at all).

2) This one's more minor, but her explanation for not having moved her vote off of us despite reading us as town in #635. I remember Regfan mentioned it to me on Skype as something he found problematic but I don't think we had ever mentioned it in the thread. I liked that she took the initiative there and her explanation makes sense.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Something I just thought of:

I sincerely doubt bbMolla is scum. I don't think he's a good enough player to say some of the things he's said in this game in the manner he's said them as scum. In particular, the string of posts that started at #200 is a big part of where my town read on him comes from. If Yuriko is scum, this is even more the case. I think his play in general looks pretty unreserved and a lot of his posts have clicked with me.

Which of Molla's posts do you click with? Because as far as I remember, Molla hasn't stated very many firm reads and I believe he even townreads sangres.

[Gold Saucer]

Sorry, I'm back. I was reminded mid-run that tonight was pub trivia night. I'm just getting back home. Let me get myself situated and then I can actually post and respond.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

I similarly will be on sporadically on the weekend, hoping that we bump into each other though since I'd really like your thoughts on a lot that's happened. Also congrats on becoming a

bullshit

doctor.

[Gold Saucer]

I am finally caught up!

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I am stupid tired, but I think I'm going to go for a run and put some of my thoughts together, so in a bit.

I'm here too if you want to talk about stuff!

Nothing major for me to add right now to the thread, but I wanted to talk about the couple of things I found townish from pieguyn:

1) The point where pieguyn started to read us as town (#286. When I read Regfan's #280, I felt like this was the "point-of-no-return" post where it's like, the townieness is so blatant you'd have to be straight up bad if town to misread our slot. Pieguyn reading that and coming to the realization just felt like the right thing at the right time and I don't think she'd have backed off at this point if scum (she'd have probably done it earlier or not at all).

2) This one's more minor, but her explanation for not having moved her vote off of us despite reading us as town in #635. I remember Regfan mentioned it to me on Skype as something he found problematic but I don't think we had ever mentioned it in the thread. I liked that she took the initiative there and her explanation makes sense.

I spent a good portion of my run today thinking about pie. I told Bork earlier that she's probably town, but that the way she's playing this game is do annoying and nonsensical at times that it's hard for me to feel great about that read. The only thing that really reads town is her emotion, but I recently nearly got fooled by malakittens throwing a fit in a way I thought was atypical for her as scum that I'm hesitant to go oh that's town.

Here's some problems I have:

1) she's done precious little scum hunting. The majority of her play this game is to shit on other peoples reads and scumhunting techniques, but when I think about what actual scumhunting she has done I'm coming up blank. I realize that she was put on the defensive maybe and this could color that and it's possible that I'm so annoyed with the way she's approaching this game that I'm missing something, but I don't read her based on how mad she gets but how she scum reads and town reads people that I'm having a hard time considering it feels in many instances she's trying to teach people about mafia theory and scumhunting rather than doing it.

2) she's done weird backbends to town read the ffery slot all while crapping on other people's town reads from the "meta-circle". Like the reasons she's town reading ffery is so flimsy it's not funny. In order for her to actuslly believe those are town tells for ffery, she has to believe that ffery is some scared damsel in distress when it comes to mafia. What pie is town reading ffery for is so well within her behavior as scum and how she would have to behave as svum to an extent in this player list anyway. The narrative that she's constructed for herself about how ffery and nacho would have had some pow-wow about how to treat her and oh she'd be too quaking in her boots to make a throwaway sort of agreement about overreaction is so terrible especially in light of the question to ffery about why she's townreading Bork, who was not very obvtown in tsles of you and played nothing like he is now, along with getting after regfan for not adequately rethinking his town reads is just so hypocritical.

3) I can't make sense of her okay this game and I hate that she ignored quil's question about if she really thought we'd all buy and allow without question a weak scum read from you guys.

This is frustrating because some of the frustration reads town, and the epiphany about differences in playstyles reads town, but I don't usually have a hard time following pie's thought process and I am here. In the normal game, I felt like pie and I worked pretty well together, even though she didn't listen to me on a couple things, by proxy through Trojan horse. I understood early exactly how she was seeing the game, and her reads and reasons usually feel a bit more well former than here. Oh I liked her reach out to you guys once she thought she recognized it being a playstyle difference, and I do think that her back off from you guys would have probably felt a bit orchestrated if she were scum here. I do think she would have backed off though.

Anyway, she's probably town, but I wouldn't bank the game on it.

Oh and what is kinda interesting is the anger about the not posting while being online. I don't get the anger over the accusation, and if she does somehow find it difficult to post in the first few pages of the game, why not just say that? Also, scum often have a hard time posting during rvs, so it's not unreasonable that was part of a push. What's kind of amusing is I started this game with a scum read on sangres because during the confirmation stage, ffery was logged in to sangres several times when I was browsing and since it was confirmation and no one was posting, I figured she was logged in to sangres to post in the scum qt. anyway that's one of those things I needed to get off my chest before I start dwelling on it.

More thoughts coming.

[fferyllt]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

[sangres]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

I blame Tammy for this alt slip.

[Gold Saucer]

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

also, I pointed up your lack of reach-out to tammy, but a quick iso/ctl-f indicates she and bork haven't had anything to say about you so far. Do you feel like that's typical of town-tammy?

[Gold Saucer]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

I blame Tammy for this alt slip.

Um. Why not just say you were probably refreshing the page?

I don't get the "ohmigods how dare you notice I was online." If you don't want it noticed, make it private.

I didn't say anything about it earlier in case you were masons ^_^ with someone. I won't say how long I continued to hold that possible theory even knowing the setup.

[sangres]

molla explained t

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

molla explained that he didn't notice you were in the game because he didn't recognize the hydra. he says he did reach out to you after he noticed you later.

Which he kinda did. So I can't take it much further. Also, I've liked some of his later posting.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, Regfan and I still feel like there's a lot of problems with pieguyn's slot and we're trying to wrap our heads around what's going on over there. To be completely honest, though, I haven't seen the latest in pieguyn scum meta yet (and haven't had the time to explore the links she provided to Regfan) but I do remember her being really bad and awkward at it back in the day. I'd imagine she's gotten better though.

[sangres]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

I blame Tammy for this alt slip.

Um. Why not just say you were probably refreshing the page? I

I don't get the "ohmigods how dare you notice I was online." If you don't want it noticed, make it private.

I didn't say anything about it earlier in case you were masons ^_^ with someone. I won't say how long I continued to hold that possible theory even knowing the setup.

because I probably wasn't refreshing the page? I usually watch for new posts on my main account and switch to this browser when I want to make a post, unless a game is moving really fast. Most likely it happened when I launched the browser and restored previous session because I have a set of tabs I usually want open. Which I do sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.

I don't care about noticing it. I just dislike profile-watching on principle. It was driven home yet again that profile-watching/last-online info can be horribly misused in lieu of actual scumhunting in a recent newbie game I replaced into.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm going through the Touhou UPick one (where pieguyn was scum) and a few of the things I've noticed so far:

1) She's a lot jokier / lighthearted in tone there in a way that suggests she was trying to curry favor with the townies.
2) Complete lack of focus. She throws her vote around in a way that suggests she's not really interested in hitting scum but in going after attractive targets.
3) Lots of scumcasing. Hard for me to explain what this means but I think you two (ffery and Tammy) should know what it means from listening to me talk about it.

This is an old one, though, and I imagine she's gotten these cracks out of her scum game at least somewhat. Let me find a more recent one.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hell, even in her interactions with Muffin (just got to this part), #1 is a real thing that happens.

Does she tend to appease people who suspect her in her recent games as scum?

[sangres]

We've talked a fair bit about the serum and steel game. She replaced into a scum slot in that game. The game was multiball, so scum were actually able to genuinely scumhunt, which was just that little bit needed to pass for town, but there were issues with her play. One of the big ones was how awful her tunnel on Ceph's alt Chandra was.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58358e

[Gold Saucer]

I didn't like Quilfords early few posts (Was the one to bring it up to Empire initially), they felt very awkward but I don't agree with Empire at all about Quilfords Post 51 where he considers us being scum, I'm reading that as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here.Also not seeing Empires town read on Yuriko at all so he'll have to explain that one to me when he's awake and sober. Similarly not seeing his Sangres town read, hoping it's based on more than just him liking the manner she brought up meta-checks earlier because that read as extremely weak and something easily fakeable to me.

About the only town read I'm semi-confident in at this point is Bork, like his "There's a few things I'm monitoring but don't want to butt in on" in Post 38 mirrors what I was doing at the time, also like his recent questioning with Quilford, comes across as him genuinely attempt to get a read there.

the bork town read jumped out at me. taking a laid-back/observing approach is relatively easy to fake as scum. and "genuinely attempting to get a read" is completely unsubstantiated (I'm interested in what, specifically, made you think this).

in general, I feel most of the positions in 63 were ass-backwards; I think sangres is likely town and don't really see how he's seeing bork's posts (which I think have been easy to fake for the most part) as more town.

I don't see how that'd make scumhunting more difficult or harder for her to do especially in an early game position like this where there wouldn't be any flips normally. Also it's not as if flips are hidden it's just a case of lynched town can still post which shouldn't impact scumhunting again? So yeah, I don't see her "worries" as genuine at all. I'm going to be p disappointing if that's what Empire is reading as town here.

I don't buy this stance either. it essentially amounted to him calling Yuriko scummy for being confused early game - the obvious hole here is that it's still relatively easy for a town player to be confused early game in a normal setup. thus, claiming that her being confused early game here because the setup is practically the same as a normal setup is disingenuous. I also think it's pretty fucking obvious Yuriko's confusion about treestumps comes from just not knowing how the tree stump role works and thus not realizing it doesn't actually hinder town here; that he'd miss this also comes off disingenuous.

Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

this is one of the most lol things I've seen and I don't believe that a player of your calibre would consider this a cogent argument.

consider this. was I actually posting in any other games in the time I was on this site? I was periodically browsing the site, but I was busy and it takes a lot more time effort to sit down and read/digest a game than it does to periodically browse the forums and make occasional posts here and there. the fact that I hadn't even formed any reads yet after game start adds to this (although strictly speaking I had the weak town read on ffery since her pregame posts, but, really); you were expecting me to come in here, with no reads, and do ... what, exactly?

it is also noted that your two primary scum reads entirely come down to "forced posts" and "being active elsewhere but not posting here" - and when you did have a play-based scum read, you dropped it immediately (and looking back at it again it was based mostly on forced posts). do you currently have any scum reads based on play?

p-edit:

@Pie - The quoted bit below reads like utter bullshit - We haven't "pushed" you at all, I've merely voted you saying that your posts read over-the-top (Something that both Ffyer and Muffin have agreed with) and mentioned that I dislike you being online but taking an age to get in here for content (Which did occur).

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

this is a semantic argument at best and disingenuous at worst.

Nacho - what, in this post, was muffin supposed to town read pieguy for? And why is it not likely for him to think it's an overreaction and scummy, especially considering he was concerned about pieguy before this post?

Ffery says you feel frustrated because you can't seem to explain what you mean so it makes sense. Explain it to me. I can usually follow your thought process and here I really can't. Do you not see anything town in muffin?

I'm not a big fan of the reasoning for the town read on us in Post 265 as, especially in my case, it felt like not all that special of a reason to town read us. I think I'm perfectly capable of reaching out to someone as scum, and I think you know that's within my range as scum. I think there are some better reasons and some other better but more subtle that pointed to us being town at that point.

There was something else I thought. Mostly I want to feel better about my read on yiu guys, but the read with reasoning on muffin is really throwing me off.

[Gold Saucer]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

I blame Tammy for this alt slip.

Um. Why not just say you were probably refreshing the page? I

I don't get the "ohmigods how dare you notice I was online." If you don't want it noticed, make it private.

I didn't say anything about it earlier in case you were masons ^_^ with someone. I won't say how long I continued to hold that possible theory even knowing the setup.

because I probably wasn't refreshing the page? I usually watch for new posts on my main account and switch to this browser when I want to make a post, unless a game is moving really fast. Most likely it happened when I launched the browser and restored previous session because I have a set of tabs I usually want open. Which I do sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.

I don't care about noticing it. I just dislike profile-watching on principle. It was driven home yet again that profile-watching/last-online info can be horribly misused in lieu of actual scumhunting in a recent newbie game I replaced into.

I have much better things to do on a Friday night than profile watch. I noticed it and it surprised me, which led to me noticing it again when next I went online.

Considering I waited until page 28 to even bring it up as something tangential I doubt very seriously you even believe it's in lieu of scumhunting, but yes, make it invisible if it bothers you that it's noticed.

[Gold Saucer]

Hell, even in her interactions with Muffin (just got to this part), #1 is a real thing that happens.

Does she tend to appease people who suspect her in her recent games as scum?

I've only seen her as scum in serum and steel. I had metad some other game before that but it was old and I can't remember what it was.

[Gold Saucer]

molla explained t

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

molla explained that he didn't notice you were in the game because he didn't recognize the hydra. he says he did reach out to you after he noticed you later.

Which he kinda did. So I can't take it much further. Also, I've liked some of his later posting.

Yes, he said hi to me after I said hi to him by reposting your question, but you also asked about me and not reaching out but you didn't follow up.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I dropped the Touhou UPick game right now to go read S&S2 and there's a lot that is really distressing me :/ (as in, I see lot of parallels between what she did there and what she's doing here).

I think it's worth reading the TM Normal again since I read her as town almost instantly while it was ongoing.

[sangres]

molla explained t

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

molla explained that he didn't notice you were in the game because he didn't recognize the hydra. he says he did reach out to you after he noticed you later.

Which he kinda did. So I can't take it much further. Also, I've liked some of his later posting.

Yes, he said hi to me after I said hi to him by reposting your question, but you also asked about me and not reaching out but you didn't follow up.

Because it's not a question I can really answer - at least not with the authority that Molla can - and because I was more concerned about Molla than about you at that point. If he had come back with something like "yeah, that is a little odd of Tammy", then something useful for reading in your interactions might have happened.

I set up exchanges like this fairly frequently, and they don't always lead anywhere I find particularly useful. Sometimes they do.

You're just going to have to get over the fact that I'm townreading bork and I'm not poking at you guys much as a result. After some flips that could change, but I'm more or less happy with you guys atm.

[Gold Saucer]

yuriko is a decent policy lynch, but im not seeing any substance in a yuriko push fyi

It's not really a policy kynch from my point of view. I'm having a really hard time believing there's two scum outside of yuko and I don't feel great about a scum read on anyone in the eight.

If she is town, I have some serious rethinking to do about the people in this game because other than paranoia dream teams, Im coming up short.

[Gold Saucer]

molla explained t

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

molla explained that he didn't notice you were in the game because he didn't recognize the hydra. he says he did reach out to you after he noticed you later.

Which he kinda did. So I can't take it much further. Also, I've liked some of his later posting.

Yes, he said hi to me after I said hi to him by reposting your question, but you also asked about me and not reaching out but you didn't follow up.

Because it's not a question I can really answer - at least not with the authority that Molla can - and because I was more concerned about Molla than about you at that point. If he had come back with something like "yeah, that is a little odd of Tammy", then something useful for reading in your interactions might have happened.

I set up exchanges like this fairly frequently, and they don't always lead anywhere I find particularly useful. Sometimes they do.

You're just going to have to get over the fact that I'm townreading bork and I'm not poking at you guys much as a result. After some flips that could change, but I'm more or less happy with you guys atm.

Hmm

Why would I not like you guys townreading us? That has nothing to do with why this caught my eye.

As soon as you posed the question about me, when I posted bucket, I told Bork that I couldn't figure out if you were trying to get reads or stir up stuff. It seemed premature to me to wonder about that kind of thing and I thought you could be trying to recreate the valid concern about falcon not really interacting with me in serum and steel.

Bb and I do usually interact in games, but it's hardly ever right at the very start in a game we both start in. It's almost always when at least one of us has a foot in the game and if town happens in a really organic way. Often one of us will feel lost or get paranoid of the other so push there or joke if we're in rvs at the same time or sometimes hell reaction test me.

If he had posted anything to me at the point you wondered about it, I'd have probably thought he was scum.