Blitz 3: Dead of Winter Mafia - Game Over

[davesaz]

More for tradition's sake than anything else...
VOTE: Davsto

Wow, fast start. TBH getting real content within the first 1-2 pages is refreshing after seeing many games with RVS that goes on for 10+.
I'm working and do not have time to analyze the early content. Maybe in a few hours. Not like I'm known for snap reads anyway.

So you like me trying to get out of RVS, and then put down a random vote?

I saw the RVS comment from Makoto Nanaya about evening out the Daves and wanted to test what would happen if I followed it up. It wasn't really random, but it needed to look random in order to be a valid test. Being a little annoyed at having to explain that it was a joke seems town. Weak but in a game this quick we'll need every indicator we can get.

Who is your number one scumread?

You had been, but it was far from strong. I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. I need to evaluate this recent string of posts. Lots of questions might be a good sign, but only if they aren't manipulative, which remains to be seen.

I'm also looking at hiphop for that entrance. It feels like scum waiting for a wagon to develop. The_Jester's "haven't received a PM" thing could be honest or it could also be an excuse for sitting back and watching for a place to jump in.

[Netherspite]

Official Vote Count

The Silver Bard

(3): Expedience, pisskop, Ranger

A Royal Saint

(2): Scorpious, gameplay506

davesaz

(1): Davsto

Davsto

(1): davesaz

gameplay506

(1): Klingoncelt

Scorpious

(1): A Royal Saint

Not Voting

(4): The Jester, The Silver Bard, hiplop, Makoto Nanaya

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-11-07 13:52:29)

[The Silver Bard]

@Experience -- No. 24 is bad because of how Scorpious followed it up. It is a combination of the posts that followed. He has no desire to solve the game and the combination with Bard.

Bard then chainsaws and attempts to defend Scorpious. Why? If the argument was incorrect or flimsy then all Scorpious has to do is brush it aside or call me crazy.

Gameplay really needs to post reasons with their vote. If you think it is off, why?
Ranger -- same to you. Trying too hard is empty as hell. I don't change my style for anyone. Assuming KlingonCelt's restriction is true everyone deserves a chance to play the game. If it makes it look "tries too hard" I am a okay with that because I will try to my last breath.

Bard -- The fact you aren't voting anyone you are pushing furthermore makes me convinced you and Scorpious are it together. I just think based on posts Scorpious is probably the more experienced one so I want them lynched first. Or at least poked and prodded.

Gotta go to work I will be on later.

You say I chainsaw when what I did was question you for putting me as scum with Scorpius. Chainsawing would be me attacking you for going after Scorpius. But fine, I will defend Scorpius as well here (and now you can claim I am chainsawing).

Your vote on Scorpius is very poorly reasoned in my opinion. Here is why you think he is scum:

My vote for Scorpious is now a non RVS vote here is why:

He OMGUS's me for RVSing them trying to raise some emotion. (1)
Says he can't vote for Pisskop because puppies ? I do not understand that at all. (2)
Then he pokes Bard saying they were antagonistic. This reads as if it is from a scum chat and I suspect Scorpious and Bard are aligned. (3)
I do not know of a situation where a townie would use the words Scorpius did. (4)
Because of this Expedience gets a town read in that he is trying to continue discussion.

Also note how Scorpious is posting a lot but there is no content in them. (5)

@KlingonCelt -- vote me for yes and then unvote and just unvote for no. Are you trolling or is this serious?

(1) It is a random vote and a poke at you at the same time. Why is this scummy? It is a random vote, nothing scummy here, imo.
(2) Him joking around, a fluff post. If he posts alot of fluff, yes it might be considered scummy. But one fluff post. Not scummy.
(3) All he does in his post 31 is tell Expedience that he/she is as antagonistic as I am. Then you say this is scummy because you believe Scorpious and I are scummates together and have discussed this in out scumchat. To me this is you pushing your agenda and making up stuff to make it fit.
(4) You say you don't know any situation where a townie would play like Scorpious is doing. Really? How many games have you played? Townies do this all the time, there is nothing antitown about Scorpious pointing out that Expedience is just as antagonistic as I am. So either you are lieing to push your own agenda or you haven't played a whole lot of mafiagames.
(5) This is the only point where he is acting somewhat scummy. If he keeps posting one liners that is something and fluff that is something to put on the scumside of reading him. But there are a bunch of other players who have posted with as littler (or less) content than Scorpious have posted.


After this you continue to justify your vote on Scorpious by me chainsawing (which you really can't accuse me for until now). You answer Expedience post 70 I guess. The post where you claim I chainsaw is post 95. So you answer why you think Scorpious is scum in your post 58 with a claim that I am chainsawing in post 95. This is you again pushing your agenda. It looks like you have made up your mind that Scorpious is scum with me and are just adjusting your reasoning.

In the end your final justification for putting Scorpious and me together as a scumteam is that I haven't voted. And this is why you now are conviced that we are scum together. How you can tie me together with Scorpious for not voting is ludicrous. Yes, you can perhaps find it somewhat scummy when someone haven't voted, but how you link me together with Scorpious because of it I don't get. Again you are just pushing your agenda, and are making up arguements that fits your painting of Scorpious and myself as scum.

FYI: I haven't pushed anyone yet, and haven't had a reason to vote anyone. Now I do though, I think you are scum.

VOTE: A Royal Saint

[The Silver Bard]

More for tradition's sake than anything else...
VOTE: Davsto

Wow, fast start. TBH getting real content within the first 1-2 pages is refreshing after seeing many games with RVS that goes on for 10+.
I'm working and do not have time to analyze the early content. Maybe in a few hours. Not like I'm known for snap reads anyway.

So you like me trying to get out of RVS, and then put down a random vote?

I saw the RVS comment from Makoto Nanaya about evening out the Daves and wanted to test what would happen if I followed it up. It wasn't really random, but it needed to look random in order to be a valid test. Being a little annoyed at having to explain that it was a joke seems town. Weak but in a game this quick we'll need every indicator we can get.

Who is your number one scumread?

You had been, but it was far from strong. I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. I need to evaluate this recent string of posts. Lots of questions might be a good sign, but only if they aren't manipulative, which remains to be seen.

I'm also looking at hiphop for that entrance. It feels like scum waiting for a wagon to develop. The_Jester's "haven't received a PM" thing could be honest or it could also be an excuse for sitting back and watching for a place to jump in.

Why was I your number one scumread?

[pisskop]

Relax. You're getting town angst all over me

unvote

[pisskop]

Relax. You're getting town angst all over me

unvote

Which of course is a problem because you'll ruin my coolness.

[davesaz]

Why was I your number one scumread?

I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. This was in the post you quoted.

Side note: found out if you hilight part of a post and hit the quote button, the quote only includes that part. This is windows and chrome, ymmv.

[pisskop]

ITs a site feature, not a browser one. Although Im sure it has to be compatible with a browser. Let at me being all spiffy.

[Titus]

Official Vote Count

A Royal Saint

(3): Scorpious, gameplay506, The Silver Bard

The Silver Bard

(2): Expedience, Ranger

davesaz

(1): Davsto

Davsto

(1): davesaz

gameplay506

(1): Klingoncelt

Scorpious

(1): A Royal Saint

Not Voting

(4): The Jester, pisskop, hiplop, Makoto Nanaya

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-11-07 13:53:56)

[hiplop]

Why was I your number one scumread?

I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. This was in the post you quoted.

Side note: found out if you hilight part of a post and hit the quote button, the quote only includes that part. This is windows and chrome, ymmv.

THATS WHY MY QUOTES ALWAYS SHOW UP FUNNY

OMG.

[hiplop]

[quote="In post 92
Who is your number one scumread?

You had been, but it was far from strong. I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. I need to evaluate this recent string of posts. Lots of questions might be a good sign, but only if they aren't manipulative, which remains to be seen.

I'm also looking at hiphop for that entrance. It feels like scum waiting for a wagon to develop. The_Jester's "haven't received a PM" thing could be honest or it could also be an excuse for sitting back and watching for a place to jump in.[/quote]

HIP.LOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also nah, I just dont like voting early game. I'll vote when I know theres scum.

[davesaz]

Not a lot of things happening in this game anyway.

VOTE: gameplay506
Plenty going on and avoiding it is just wrong, especially with short days.

[Ranger]

Back it up with reasoning, this vote is cheap.

I don't need to; the statement is true. :P

You are very obviously scum right now. If no real wagon forms on you, I might have incentive to point out why, but people even from here should be able to see it.

In other news, The Jester

could

be scum, but I'm not sure. Probably not, but it's something I'm watching.

[Ranger]

That being said,
VOTE: A Royal Saint.
While my scumread's weaker, this wagon's larger.

[Davsto]

Alright, imagine I was a stupid idiot who didn't understand anything. Or that I was in the Dragon's Den/Shark Tank and that I'd give you money if you sold this to me.

Sell this "obviously scum" thing on Silver Bard to me.

PEdit whelp

[A Royal Saint]

@Experience -- No. 24 is bad because of how Scorpious followed it up. It is a combination of the posts that followed. He has no desire to solve the game and the combination with Bard.

Bard then chainsaws and attempts to defend Scorpious. Why? If the argument was incorrect or flimsy then all Scorpious has to do is brush it aside or call me crazy.

Gameplay really needs to post reasons with their vote. If you think it is off, why?
Ranger -- same to you. Trying too hard is empty as hell. I don't change my style for anyone. Assuming KlingonCelt's restriction is true everyone deserves a chance to play the game. If it makes it look "tries too hard" I am a okay with that because I will try to my last breath.

Bard -- The fact you aren't voting anyone you are pushing furthermore makes me convinced you and Scorpious are it together. I just think based on posts Scorpious is probably the more experienced one so I want them lynched first. Or at least poked and prodded.

Gotta go to work I will be on later.

You say I chainsaw when what I did was question you for putting me as scum with Scorpius. Chainsawing would be me attacking you for going after Scorpius. But fine, I will defend Scorpius as well here (and now you can claim I am chainsawing).

Your vote on Scorpius is very poorly reasoned in my opinion. Here is why you think he is scum:

My vote for Scorpious is now a non RVS vote here is why:

He OMGUS's me for RVSing them trying to raise some emotion. (1)
Says he can't vote for Pisskop because puppies ? I do not understand that at all. (2)
Then he pokes Bard saying they were antagonistic. This reads as if it is from a scum chat and I suspect Scorpious and Bard are aligned. (3)
I do not know of a situation where a townie would use the words Scorpius did. (4)
Because of this Expedience gets a town read in that he is trying to continue discussion.

Also note how Scorpious is posting a lot but there is no content in them. (5)

@KlingonCelt -- vote me for yes and then unvote and just unvote for no. Are you trolling or is this serious?

(1) It is a random vote and a poke at you at the same time. Why is this scummy? It is a random vote, nothing scummy here, imo.
(2) Him joking around, a fluff post. If he posts alot of fluff, yes it might be considered scummy. But one fluff post. Not scummy.
(3) All he does in his post 31 is tell Expedience that he/she is as antagonistic as I am. Then you say this is scummy because you believe Scorpious and I are scummates together and have discussed this in out scumchat. To me this is you pushing your agenda and making up stuff to make it fit.
(4) You say you don't know any situation where a townie would play like Scorpious is doing. Really? How many games have you played? Townies do this all the time, there is nothing antitown about Scorpious pointing out that Expedience is just as antagonistic as I am. So either you are lieing to push your own agenda or you haven't played a whole lot of mafiagames.
(5) This is the only point where he is acting somewhat scummy. If he keeps posting one liners that is something and fluff that is something to put on the scumside of reading him. But there are a bunch of other players who have posted with as littler (or less) content than Scorpious have posted.


After this you continue to justify your vote on Scorpious by me chainsawing (which you really can't accuse me for until now). You answer Expedience post 70 I guess. The post where you claim I chainsaw is post 95. So you answer why you think Scorpious is scum in your post 58 with a claim that I am chainsawing in post 95. This is you again pushing your agenda. It looks like you have made up your mind that Scorpious is scum with me and are just adjusting your reasoning.

In the end your final justification for putting Scorpious and me together as a scumteam is that I haven't voted. And this is why you now are conviced that we are scum together. How you can tie me together with Scorpious for not voting is ludicrous. Yes, you can perhaps find it somewhat scummy when someone haven't voted, but how you link me together with Scorpious because of it I don't get. Again you are just pushing your agenda, and are making up arguements that fits your painting of Scorpious and myself as scum.

FYI: I haven't pushed anyone yet, and haven't had a reason to vote anyone. Now I do though, I think you are scum.

VOTE: A Royal Saint

Again you ignore the why in combination and try to break things out in a way I am not intending.

1) At first it was just RVS. In isolation it is just that. It is in combination with the other posts I cited. At that point he had suspicions and was stating who they wouldn't vote for. But yet they kept their RVS vote and I pointed this out and the coaching of you.

It has been told to me that word walls are generally not read but look at post 24. Fucking read it. Scorpious chastises you for being antagonistic. I do not see any reason a townie would ever use that logic towards someone like that unless they are blatantly coaching them.

Imagine if another player said to me right now "Well you kind of are being a dick ARS." That would be seen as coaching. That is what Scorpious did and it was about you. The post isn't inherently anti town. It is about how scums interact. I hunt by trying to find who could be aligned and find a pair. And in the rare off case I am wrong then both you and Scorpious are probably town and it would be game and someone else but I highly doubt that.

It is also a common strategy for scum d1 to actively lurk. It means post a ton of useless bullshit. Happens more so in marathonesque games. Both scum just cannot lurk in a speed game else mods will call the game and while the setup is infuriating I doubt Titus would let both scum lurk or avoid post reqs.


And yes I focus on word choice and am strange. Normally if I am "sane" then worry about me being scum. I have a town role that requires me to be in the spotlight and the instant I use it will be confirmed town and then shot the next night. No doubt about it. So I am trying to get my opinions up now for that inevitability. Scum cannot leave me alive. I am claiming one of those bajillion roles. It is town only.

http://deusexmafia.wikia.com/wiki/Town_Roles

I have to grab lunch and get back to work now. Please tell me the thread will wake up.

[A Royal Saint]

That being said,
VOTE: A Royal Saint.
While my scumread's weaker, this wagon's larger.

....We have more than a day. Not time to consolidate yet. Find scum. Hunt. Think. Thou has an ability to post questions. Thou shall post questions. Thou shall find answers and be like a ranger and snipe the scum. But first it must stealthily investigate.

[The Silver Bard]

@Experience -- No. 24 is bad because of how Scorpious followed it up. It is a combination of the posts that followed. He has no desire to solve the game and the combination with Bard.

Bard then chainsaws and attempts to defend Scorpious. Why? If the argument was incorrect or flimsy then all Scorpious has to do is brush it aside or call me crazy.

Gameplay really needs to post reasons with their vote. If you think it is off, why?
Ranger -- same to you. Trying too hard is empty as hell. I don't change my style for anyone. Assuming KlingonCelt's restriction is true everyone deserves a chance to play the game. If it makes it look "tries too hard" I am a okay with that because I will try to my last breath.

Bard -- The fact you aren't voting anyone you are pushing furthermore makes me convinced you and Scorpious are it together. I just think based on posts Scorpious is probably the more experienced one so I want them lynched first. Or at least poked and prodded.

Gotta go to work I will be on later.

You say I chainsaw when what I did was question you for putting me as scum with Scorpius. Chainsawing would be me attacking you for going after Scorpius. But fine, I will defend Scorpius as well here (and now you can claim I am chainsawing).

Your vote on Scorpius is very poorly reasoned in my opinion. Here is why you think he is scum:

My vote for Scorpious is now a non RVS vote here is why:

He OMGUS's me for RVSing them trying to raise some emotion. (1)
Says he can't vote for Pisskop because puppies ? I do not understand that at all. (2)
Then he pokes Bard saying they were antagonistic. This reads as if it is from a scum chat and I suspect Scorpious and Bard are aligned. (3)
I do not know of a situation where a townie would use the words Scorpius did. (4)
Because of this Expedience gets a town read in that he is trying to continue discussion.

Also note how Scorpious is posting a lot but there is no content in them. (5)

@KlingonCelt -- vote me for yes and then unvote and just unvote for no. Are you trolling or is this serious?

(1) It is a random vote and a poke at you at the same time. Why is this scummy? It is a random vote, nothing scummy here, imo.
(2) Him joking around, a fluff post. If he posts alot of fluff, yes it might be considered scummy. But one fluff post. Not scummy.
(3) All he does in his post 31 is tell Expedience that he/she is as antagonistic as I am. Then you say this is scummy because you believe Scorpious and I are scummates together and have discussed this in out scumchat. To me this is you pushing your agenda and making up stuff to make it fit.
(4) You say you don't know any situation where a townie would play like Scorpious is doing. Really? How many games have you played? Townies do this all the time, there is nothing antitown about Scorpious pointing out that Expedience is just as antagonistic as I am. So either you are lieing to push your own agenda or you haven't played a whole lot of mafiagames.
(5) This is the only point where he is acting somewhat scummy. If he keeps posting one liners that is something and fluff that is something to put on the scumside of reading him. But there are a bunch of other players who have posted with as littler (or less) content than Scorpious have posted.


After this you continue to justify your vote on Scorpious by me chainsawing (which you really can't accuse me for until now). You answer Expedience post 70 I guess. The post where you claim I chainsaw is post 95. So you answer why you think Scorpious is scum in your post 58 with a claim that I am chainsawing in post 95. This is you again pushing your agenda. It looks like you have made up your mind that Scorpious is scum with me and are just adjusting your reasoning.

In the end your final justification for putting Scorpious and me together as a scumteam is that I haven't voted. And this is why you now are conviced that we are scum together. How you can tie me together with Scorpious for not voting is ludicrous. Yes, you can perhaps find it somewhat scummy when someone haven't voted, but how you link me together with Scorpious because of it I don't get. Again you are just pushing your agenda, and are making up arguements that fits your painting of Scorpious and myself as scum.

FYI: I haven't pushed anyone yet, and haven't had a reason to vote anyone. Now I do though, I think you are scum.

VOTE: A Royal Saint

Again you ignore the why in combination and try to break things out in a way I am not intending.

1) At first it was just RVS. In isolation it is just that. It is in combination with the other posts I cited. At that point he had suspicions and was stating who they wouldn't vote for. But yet they kept their RVS vote and I pointed this out and the coaching of you.

It has been told to me that word walls are generally not read but look at post 24. Fucking read it. Scorpious chastises you for being antagonistic. I do not see any reason a townie would ever use that logic towards someone like that unless they are blatantly coaching them.

Imagine if another player said to me right now "Well you kind of are being a dick ARS." That would be seen as coaching. That is what Scorpious did and it was about you. The post isn't inherently anti town. It is about how scums interact. I hunt by trying to find who could be aligned and find a pair. And in the rare off case I am wrong then both you and Scorpious are probably town and it would be game and someone else but I highly doubt that.

It is also a common strategy for scum d1 to actively lurk. It means post a ton of useless bullshit. Happens more so in marathonesque games. Both scum just cannot lurk in a speed game else mods will call the game and while the setup is infuriating I doubt Titus would let both scum lurk or avoid post reqs.


And yes I focus on word choice and am strange. Normally if I am "sane" then worry about me being scum. I have a town role that requires me to be in the spotlight and the instant I use it will be confirmed town and then shot the next night. No doubt about it. So I am trying to get my opinions up now for that inevitability. Scum cannot leave me alive. I am claiming one of those bajillion roles. It is town only.

http://deusexmafia.wikia.com/wiki/Town_Roles

I have to grab lunch and get back to work now. Please tell me the thread will wake up.

If Scorpious and I were scum together why would Scorpious coach me in thread?

It would be much easier to do so in scum daychat.

You are still just pushing your agenda. You are scum.

[hiplop]

And yes I focus on word choice and am strange. Normally if I am "sane" then worry about me being scum. I have a town role that requires me to be in the spotlight and the instant I use it will be confirmed town and then shot the next night. No doubt about it. So I am trying to get my opinions up now for that inevitability. Scum cannot leave me alive. I am claiming one of those bajillion roles. It is town only.

advice: dont say stuff like this ever. You're right, being coached makes no sesne with day chat. He could be laying oppurtunities, though. Which is very possible.

Not sure I think its the case. I think philosohper dave/ranger are both town, btw.

[Davsto]

That being said,
VOTE: A Royal Saint.
While my scumread's weaker, this wagon's larger.

Seriously though, while I went all "whelp" on this earlier, this is weak as fuck. Changing your vote to a weaker scumread because they had one more vote on them? Rather than, I don't know, actually pushing the one you're more certain of?

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: The Silver Bard

I do not like either of the current wagons. The Silver Bard looks very town to me at this point. I don't feel confident about lynching A Royal Saint, his push on Scorpious was bad but I don't think that this makes him scummy to be honest. I looked at one of A Royal Saint's other games and I don't think that this is scummy, it wouldn't manifest itself in this way. Also he just softclaimed so yeah this is a bad wagon.

I am not liking davesaz however. He seems unwilling to commit to a confident stance other than an easy push on a lurker. His thoughts seem shallow and he's trying to appear like he's scumhunting when he's only pointing out superficial things, for example:

Before i forget

UNVOTE: Davesto to keep the daves even.

This pings scum a bit. Are you concerned about balance like this often?

This is also a loaded question, Makoto seems hardly "concerned".

And also (as an example of shallow observations):

I'm also looking at hiphop for that entrance. It feels like scum waiting for a wagon to develop. The_Jester's "haven't received a PM" thing could be honest or it could also be an excuse for sitting back and watching for a place to jump in.

Neither of these are good reasons to me. Hiplop probably has a good reason for not voting, davesaz doesn't even ask him why which is what should have been done. Jester claiming to have not received a PM is most likely not alignment indicative at all, even worse davesaz fence-sits here, just "oh maybe its scummy maybe not idk". He just says this to look town and set up later pushes, he doesn't really do much with them (he votes gameplay later).

More for tradition's sake than anything else...
VOTE: Davsto

Wow, fast start. TBH getting real content within the first 1-2 pages is refreshing after seeing many games with RVS that goes on for 10+.
I'm working and do not have time to analyze the early content. Maybe in a few hours. Not like I'm known for snap reads anyway.

So you like me trying to get out of RVS, and then put down a random vote?

I saw the RVS comment from Makoto Nanaya about evening out the Daves and wanted to test what would happen if I followed it up. It wasn't really random, but it needed to look random in order to be a valid test. Being a little annoyed at having to explain that it was a joke seems town. Weak but in a game this quick we'll need every indicator we can get.

This doesn't really address what The Silver Bard said because how does RVS voting for Davsto test what would happen if you followed up Makoto Nanaya..? I don't understand. He posted 37 before Makoto posted 39 and he supposedly started ""testing"" her, so I don't really know what this means. While I do agree with his assessment of Makoto, there is also some vacillation with "weak but useful" that I don't like.

Who is your number one scumread?

You had been, but it was far from strong. I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. I need to evaluate this recent string of posts. Lots of questions might be a good sign, but only if they aren't manipulative, which remains to be seen.

He is fence-sitting and hesitant to commit to an opinion, even giving reasons why he might think differently but then nullifying them.

My observation on Pisskop is that his alignment is usually opposite my natural read -- the townier he looks, the more likely to be scum.
The way my luck runs, as soon as I switch to reading him that way he'll start acting townie when town.

Not like I'm known for snap reads anyway.

He seems to display a kind of self-deprecating attitude which looks to me like fence-sitting scum afraid to give an opinion early on.

The way he answers The Silver Bard in 106 seems somewhat forced.

Not a lot of things happening in this game anyway.

VOTE: gameplay506
Plenty going on and avoiding it is just wrong, especially with short days.

This is misrepresentation and scum narrativey, gameplay wasn't avoiding the things that were going on because in that very post he said "Royal and Klingo are seem off to me". And this could almost be compared to the self-deprecation that davesaz showed earlier.

VOTE: davesaz

We have about 43 hours left btw.

I am also a bit unsure about Kligoncelt's vote on gameplay as well, but I don't feel comfortable about voting for someone who can't defend themselves at all.

[Expedience]

If Scorpious and I were scum together why would Scorpious coach me in thread?

It would be much easier to do so in scum daychat.

You are still just pushing your agenda. You are scum.

I mean, yes he's wrong, but he's not scum for it. Scum aren't so obvious as to push this kind of stupid agenda on d1, you're going to have to look harder.

[hiplop]

maybe I was wrong about philosophidave :/

[davesaz]

It's a playstyle thing. Some people are confrontational, others use a more oblique approach. The trick is reading how people respond.
Lots of game links available on my wiki page, feel free to compare.

[hiplop]

Expedience is town.

Davesaz is questionable. I don't think he should die today, though.