Newbie 1676 | Hungarian Nóták | Endgame

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.05 (unchanged) Adj, Uram, Isten

Sok idegen földet bolyongtam be én,
Messzi hegyek,völgyek, kerültek elém.
De mindenütt árván jártam a határt,
És a zene szárnyán lelkem hazaszállt!

Adj, uram Isten dús aranykalászt,
Hozzon az új nyár gazdag aratást.
Kapjon esőt a határ, virágot a rét,
Zengjen újra a madár úgy, mint valaha rég!

Adj, uram Isten, derűsebb jövőt,
Harmatos rónán, gazdag legelőt.
Legyen boldog a szívünk, mint valaha rég,
És legyen kék felettünk újra a nagy ég!

Itthon vagyok újra, hazatértem én,
Felnézek az égre, ragyog rám a fény.
Ragyog rám az áldott aranynapsugár,
Újra visszaszállott a dalos madár.

I have wandered into many foreign lands,
Distant mountains, valleys came before me.
But everywhere I walked the border an orphan,
And my soul flew home on the wings of music!

Give, lord God, thick ears of corn,
Let the new summer bring a rich harvest,
Let the border get rain, the meadow get flowers,
Let the bird sing the way it sang once long ago!

Give, lord God, a clearer future,
On dewy plains, rich pastures.
Let our hearts be happy, as once long ago,
And let the big sky above us be blue again!

I’m home again, I’ve returned home,
I look up at the sky and the line shines onto me.
The blessed golden sun rays shine onto me,
The singing bird has flown back again.

lynching

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch or no lynch.

Bluebird

(L-3): AzoriusSenate, Some Random Mafia Player

Belisarius

(L-4): Bluebird

Kim

(L-4): Belisarius

Some Random Mafia Player

(L-4): hiplop

Not voting

(4): Kim, Smudger, Witch_Hunter, MrCurlyNoodles

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(expired on 2016-01-20 14:00:00)

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[Smudger]

his and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

really? as stated previously your reaction says otherwise

VOTE: Random Mafia Player

[Witch_Hunter]

The more experienced players can touch on this as well, but I will explain my POV. People making lists with scum and town in them gives scum a lot of information. Obviously town is already sharing there thoughts but there is something very potent in lists.

The scum can easily use these lists, if incorrect, to manipulate town.

Another point to be made is that they really are useless. At this point we should all have people we do and don't want to lynch today. Putting everything on the table for scum to see is unnecessary and could lead to them gaining an advantage. Plus, it's very early in the game so reads should absolutely not be set in stone.

Disagree on their uselessness, and don't see why posting a list should set reads in stone. Of course opinions should change as new information comes up, and we shouldn't expect people to necessarily keep the same reads they posted a while ago.
But the bolded part is a good point. I still think they're more useful for town than for scum, but yes, there is some danger.

I'm aware these are all things scum can do while just playing the game but I feel like it's easier with early read lists.

Also a good point.

but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

how do you know who is in your team? what is scum's main aim? how do they achieve that aim?

1. That's what talking and sharing information is for. In a

reductio ad absurdum

, nobody posts anything so scum can't work on misdirection, and in the end scum wins because town didn't have enough info to go with.
2. To win the game = to kill town.
3. Scum wins by default if town doesn't do anything. Town must be active and hunt scum to win. That's done by getting information.

That said

, your and AzoriusSenate's point is that then scum can work on misdirection. Point accepted.

So, would you agree on this more nuanced statement: "read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

[Belisarius]

I'm not getting a Kim lynch today, am I?

I find the Smudger/SRMP interaction intriguing, but I'm not prepared to commit a vote at this time.

I'd like to hear more from Azorious and Noodles. You two are big fat question marks for me, and that makes me nervous.

[Witch_Hunter]

Feeling bad vibes from

Some Random Mafia Player

. Very defensive, very confident Bluebird should be lynched with not enough evidence, and I still didn't see his case on Kim, even though he wanted us to talk about it and I explicitly requested him to say what was so important about Kim specifically.

Will ISO him later when I have the time, but for now,

FoS: Some Random Mafia Player

.

P-edit: @

Belisarius

: What about Kim makes him lynch worthy?

[Smudger]

"read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

basically what others and I have said already, and so yes I would agree....

[Smudger]

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

No I dont know of any wiki page or article on this... maybe Hiplop...and agreed it should not derail us, but it does provide responses to gauge how each of us interacts and reacts to discussions and questions. Therefore we can all start to form opinions on others in the game. and develop those opinions as we move forward, would you not agree?

[hiplop]

I am not scared to join the bluebird wagon, especially since no discussion actually happened on kim. The point of me doing it is now useless so UNVOTE: Kim VOTE: Bluebird and that one-liner that I made was because I dident see this. I think this justifies your read on me.

Ou. This is no good. I would expect you to continue whatever it is you were doing, not back down under pressure. This feels awkward and forced.

I agree with his logic here. Reads lists at this point in the game are pointless and may look proactive, but in reality they don't do much for us. It might actually benefit scum to a certain extent.

Depends how loyal one is to them. It is good for people to share their view on the game in order to be able to figure out contradictions and whatnot later on. Perhaps this is a bit early, but it really is a debatable point and not overly alignment indicative. His weird pushes on the other hand are absolutely scummy.

Notice the restraint he puts on the bluebird wagon, says he wants to join but doesn't, joins and then immediately discusses the chance of bluebird not showing up and giving him the benefit of the doubt. It just seems like an awkward attempt to keep bluebird alive. (I mean, of course give the replacement a shot, just his reaction to it is off)

So people voting for bluebird: want to tell more of why you think they're scum? Or is it just those opening posts and trying to put pressure to get a response out of her? It is pretty weird that she hasn't really posted since.

Tragically a part of why I'm here is to make you guys excited about mafia! We want to keep y'all around and get you to play in other games! Sometimes that isn't the case, unfortunately and you leave us

Side note: I'm aware this post sounds very defensive of Bluebird, but I'm honestly just genuinely curious about why some people seem so sure she's scum. I get the pressure thing. But beyond that I'm wondering what people's thought processes are.

re: defending bluebird, I think this is a GOOD, townie example of it. This post as a whole. Some Random's is the exact opposite where he defends the slot without actually saying why. He is playing like he knows more than the rest of us (his readslist, his ability to dismiss bluebird wagon, etc). He is playing like he is better informed than us, ala scum.

I kind of agree with what you're saying on the subject of read lists, though i understand how it could help scum. Also hiplop's realist did get called out and he justified it, saying he likes to give new players his thoughts to help them with the game. Personally I find them helpful, as a new player, just to see more of how people work through the logic in this game and get a feel for what people are thinking, however I totally understand how read lists could potentially help scum and, if you were scum, you could be doing it to encourage more people to do it (as opposed to just sending your scum partner your reads, which you mentioned earlier).

FWIW, it completely depends on the person/situation. Reads lists/sharing info is one of the best powers town has, but at the same time disclosing too much or too early can be a detriment. Honestly, there is no yes or no answer on this issue. I personally lean on the "read lists = good" side of things, but I'm sure you'll find others who think contrarily. Basically, it can cause people to play lazily and scum to nest comfortably inside a townread. I don't think that is particularly common, but it really is up for debate!

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that could be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are definitely useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

Yep! That is basically my stance on it too. Again, there is merit to keeping some cards close to your chest (AND THE ABILITY TO BE FLEXIBLE). Many a-games are lost due to people not wavering on their town reads. Smudge is more saying EARLY readslists are necessarily helpful, I believe, which is again debatable.

To me the problem is more that SRMP was able to CLEARLY and EASILY organize every player into a category. I couldn't do that now, not even close!

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

counterpoint: don't be a stubborn jerk about your reads lol.

Diden't look like a complaint

I think it did, quite glaringly too. Why are you so nervous about that push?

In fact the as I didn't put a "?" after my comment attached to the quote I made of your read list might point you in the direction that it was neither a complaint or a question, merely an observation, some might say a reaction test, which going by your overt defensive of a simple observation, well its a good reaction to gain. why did you think at that moment in the game you were under attack from me?

DING DING DING. He reacted very poorly, and almost certainly from a scum POV.

1. That's what talking and sharing information is for. In a reductio ad absurdum, nobody posts anything so scum can't work on misdirection, and in the end scum wins because town didn't have enough info to go with.
2. To win the game = to kill town.
3. Scum wins by default if town doesn't do anything. Town must be active and hunt scum to win. That's done by getting information.
That said, your and AzoriusSenate's point is that then scum can work on misdirection. Point accepted.

So, would you agree on this more nuanced statement: "read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

They grow up so fast *wipes tears from eyes*

I don't know of any tbh. No one really says that reads lists are bad...I don't think. Not many, anyway. People tend to oppose early ones but that REALLY isn't a big deal. I actually like them because I think it helped me catch scum in SRMP ^_^

[MrCurlyNoodles]

In post 64, Smudger wrote:
have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?


questions here for you curlynooodles...

Sorry I totally meant to respond to these and then got sidetracked by the new players and then the whole read list discussion. I didn't question him, which was probably a mistake, but too late now. Mostly it was just a gut reaction to his first couple posts, as I've said before. I feel like the fact that it was a more serious accusation when we were still in RVS meant it warranted a response, even if said accusation was on faulty grounds. And then changing from his initial slight scum read on bluebird (the one you are all jumping on now) to Kim for no explained reason also feels wrong. No solid ground had been laid for Kim to be scum at the time, it was just a random vote, which then deferred the attention from Belisarius and Bluebird (the two people with actual scum accusations at the time) to Kim. While this may have actually been the right play since Bluebird has been mostly silent since then, to me it felt a little scummy. That being said, since then Belisarius has been fairly town all around since (though I still have my suspicions) and scummier acting players have come up, I let it drop.

In post 109, MrCurlyNoodles wrote:
like it's harder to change your mind once its set down in writing and not just an idea in your head.


so you cannot change your POV as the game progresses? I see what you are saying but what is this game about?

In terms of this, I'm just saying its some basic human psychology that once you write it down it becomes more "real". It's why people create to do lists etc. I don't mean you can't change your mind, it just potentially becomes harder to do so. Which is part of why I acknowledge that early read lists could be potentially bad for the town. I think hiplop's response to all of the read list discussion pretty much encapsulated what I think as well. In fact much of what hiplop and Witch_Hunter are saying in terms of SRMP is pretty much on track with what I'm thinking.

Spoiler:

Side note: idk how you guys do the quote within a quote thing. I just tried quoting it and this is what it gave me. So sorry for that.

[MrCurlyNoodles]

EBWOP I said since twice like an idiot. Kindly ignore my grammar mistakes

[Bluebird]

Sorry for being gone so long. I was doing a project for school over the weekend. It's not going to happen again :/

Hello, new people!

Alright. Let me answer some of these questions:
My OMGUS vote and alignment claim sort of does appear suspicious when I look at it, but I'm not familiar with Mafia gameplay here. In my offsite game, we had a mass alignment claim at the beginning, and I expected the same from here. I could probably dig up the link later.

"I would think you would know that by now."
Kim, I said that because I noticed that this isn't your first game and I thought it was strange you would make that observation at all. I'm not quite sure what you were aiming to do or if that was an offhand comment, but it caught my attention.

If I've missed anything, please remind me. I'm going off of memory right now, but I'm off to read the thread in more detail and I'll post any further thoughts later.

[AzoriusSenate]

Sorry for being gone so long. I was doing a project for school over the weekend. It's not going to happen again :/

Hello, new people!

Alright. Let me answer some of these questions:
My OMGUS vote and alignment claim sort of does appear suspicious when I look at it, but I'm not familiar with Mafia gameplay here. In my offsite game, we had a mass alignment claim at the beginning, and I expected the same from here. I could probably dig up the link later.

"I would think you would know that by now."
Kim, I said that because I noticed that this isn't your first game and I thought it was strange you would make that observation at all. I'm not quite sure what you were aiming to do or if that was an offhand comment, but it caught my attention.

If I've missed anything, please remind me. I'm going off of memory right now, but I'm off to read the thread in more detail and I'll post any further thoughts later.

Mass alignment claims are pointless. No one is going to claim mafia.

[AzoriusSenate]

I'm not getting a Kim lynch today, am I?

I find the Smudger/SRMP interaction intriguing, but I'm not prepared to commit a vote at this time.

I'd like to hear more from Azorious and Noodles. You two are big fat question marks for me, and that makes me nervous.

I said the two people I currently want lynched are blue and kim. Do you have any questions for me? I feel like i've made it pretty clear my alignment already but i'm happy to ease your mind. Fire away.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

I am not scared to join the bluebird wagon, especially since no discussion actually happened on kim. The point of me doing it is now useless so UNVOTE: Kim VOTE: Bluebird and that one-liner that I made was because I dident see this. I think this justifies your read on me.

Ou. This is no good. I would expect you to continue whatever it is you were doing, not back down under pressure. This feels awkward and forced.

I agree with his logic here. Reads lists at this point in the game are pointless and may look proactive, but in reality they don't do much for us. It might actually benefit scum to a certain extent.

Depends how loyal one is to them. It is good for people to share their view on the game in order to be able to figure out contradictions and whatnot later on. Perhaps this is a bit early, but it really is a debatable point and not overly alignment indicative. His weird pushes on the other hand are absolutely scummy.

Notice the restraint he puts on the bluebird wagon, says he wants to join but doesn't, joins and then immediately discusses the chance of bluebird not showing up and giving him the benefit of the doubt. It just seems like an awkward attempt to keep bluebird alive. (I mean, of course give the replacement a shot, just his reaction to it is off)

So people voting for bluebird: want to tell more of why you think they're scum? Or is it just those opening posts and trying to put pressure to get a response out of her? It is pretty weird that she hasn't really posted since.

Tragically a part of why I'm here is to make you guys excited about mafia! We want to keep y'all around and get you to play in other games! Sometimes that isn't the case, unfortunately and you leave us

Side note: I'm aware this post sounds very defensive of Bluebird, but I'm honestly just genuinely curious about why some people seem so sure she's scum. I get the pressure thing. But beyond that I'm wondering what people's thought processes are.

re: defending bluebird, I think this is a GOOD, townie example of it. This post as a whole. Some Random's is the exact opposite where he defends the slot without actually saying why. He is playing like he knows more than the rest of us (his readslist, his ability to dismiss bluebird wagon, etc). He is playing like he is better informed than us, ala scum.

I kind of agree with what you're saying on the subject of read lists, though i understand how it could help scum. Also hiplop's realist did get called out and he justified it, saying he likes to give new players his thoughts to help them with the game. Personally I find them helpful, as a new player, just to see more of how people work through the logic in this game and get a feel for what people are thinking, however I totally understand how read lists could potentially help scum and, if you were scum, you could be doing it to encourage more people to do it (as opposed to just sending your scum partner your reads, which you mentioned earlier).

FWIW, it completely depends on the person/situation. Reads lists/sharing info is one of the best powers town has, but at the same time disclosing too much or too early can be a detriment. Honestly, there is no yes or no answer on this issue. I personally lean on the "read lists = good" side of things, but I'm sure you'll find others who think contrarily. Basically, it can cause people to play lazily and scum to nest comfortably inside a townread. I don't think that is particularly common, but it really is up for debate!

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that could be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are definitely useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

Yep! That is basically my stance on it too. Again, there is merit to keeping some cards close to your chest (AND THE ABILITY TO BE FLEXIBLE). Many a-games are lost due to people not wavering on their town reads. Smudge is more saying EARLY readslists are necessarily helpful, I believe, which is again debatable.

To me the problem is more that SRMP was able to CLEARLY and EASILY organize every player into a category. I couldn't do that now, not even close!

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

counterpoint: don't be a stubborn jerk about your reads lol.

Diden't look like a complaint

I think it did, quite glaringly too. Why are you so nervous about that push?

In fact the as I didn't put a "?" after my comment attached to the quote I made of your read list might point you in the direction that it was neither a complaint or a question, merely an observation, some might say a reaction test, which going by your overt defensive of a simple observation, well its a good reaction to gain. why did you think at that moment in the game you were under attack from me?

DING DING DING. He reacted very poorly, and almost certainly from a scum POV.

1. That's what talking and sharing information is for. In a reductio ad absurdum, nobody posts anything so scum can't work on misdirection, and in the end scum wins because town didn't have enough info to go with.
2. To win the game = to kill town.
3. Scum wins by default if town doesn't do anything. Town must be active and hunt scum to win. That's done by getting information.
That said, your and AzoriusSenate's point is that then scum can work on misdirection. Point accepted.

So, would you agree on this more nuanced statement: "read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

They grow up so fast *wipes tears from eyes*

I don't know of any tbh. No one really says that reads lists are bad...I don't think. Not many, anyway. People tend to oppose early ones but that REALLY isn't a big deal. I actually like them because I think it helped me catch scum in SRMP ^_^

Yes, great idea, lets continue something that diden't work and waste my lynch.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

I like smudger and witch as town so far. Waiting on Bluebird to do anything. I also want to look into a Kim lynch today if things change. (They usually do in mafia.)

explain the smudger read? He hasent posted much relevant to this game imo, he seems to be fillering, although his relevant posts don't incidcate scum, which unless I missed something is onl 2

leaving this here and walking away, I even stated it doesent indicate hes scum ffs.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

you missed my post about time differences? or are you just becoming tunnel visioned because I questioned you?

since im too lazy to throw everything into one post, I dident miss the timezone difference, and my last post disapproves the second option

once again, and I linked it, I never called you scum.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

I question how read lists are bad, if we arent sharing our reads, what are we doing?

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

Also, he has 13 useless posts, he made 1 post you agree with and you call him town for the 1 post and ignore the fact he made 13 useless posts?

and you have 14 posts, point out how those posts of mine that have questions in, which Curlynoodles seems to have missed, are useless?

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

questions here for you curlynooodles...

What I said was note aimed at you

ok, but based on my comment and that of Azorius above do you understand why I questioned your read list. plus you seem defensive and sating a lot of "if I was scum" "is this scummy" etc... I actually find that scummy. That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

Your post 101 is hard to follow who you are responding to or questioning, can I ask that you do something along the lines of split each question to an individual into a separate post, and/or quote the post you are responding to then comment. or do as I have done here by linking the post. And finally you could bold the name of the person you are interacting with such as

@ Smudger

... thanks

I dident say the ones with questions were useless, I was pointing out how you had 2 useful posts, and 13 non useful posts, which is a terrible ratio to have.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

@Mod: you state 3 ppl arent voting, but list witch, kim, smudger, and curly.

@

AzoriusSenate

: Welcome!
I like your first post. Lean on information, but seems a legit effort. Interesting read on Bluebird. I'd interpreted her first post as noobtown indignated at being accused and overreacting, but it'd be interesting to see what she has to say for herself.

@

Some Random Mafia Player

:
I also liked your post, at first. Until I got to the end.
It has one

little

thing I don't understand: the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Your case on Bluebird follows on AzoriusSenate's and reinforces it, and most of your post is spent on it. So far, so good. Yet you vote on Kim, saying "havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird", though you only pointed to one post of his.

So, please enlighten me here. What's your case on Kim, and why vote him if he's not your strongest scumread?

As I stated, discussion lynch, and I mostly saw discussion on the ppl interacting with kim, not kim themself. That dident work though because due to doing that people discussed me for trying to start a discussion on kim instead of discussing kim because that was the whole point for the vote everyone sees as scummy in the first place.

Off topic: David Bowie. Rest in peace, man, and thank you for the music.

so your trying to tell me I shouldent try to find scum because its "not a town mindset?"

where do I say that? I am interested to understand why you would produce a read list so early in the game and from 3 pages of interaction? in addition what is your view on the thought is some minds that early read-lists can also be detrimental to a town player?

What I said was note aimed at you.

I would post an early read list because whats the problem with showing your thoughts early? I feel like this is opposed, due to kim doing it and suddenly getting branded scummy (which is not my reason) also addressed this seperately

and I would like you to explain how the second part makes any sense. When are showing your thoughts ever bad for town? if your not posting your thoughts, are we rving all day 1? I dont see it

And since I keep thinking of things. Another thing I want to point out was that I was not planning to stick with the lynch, so if I was bussing, why would I lead a lynch before hopping off the wagon? That would be scummy as fuck and get me lynch easily, then again, thats wifom. Now that i think of it, your assuming I am trying to avoid a bus (I think) if you are, how could I still be bussing? That would mean 3 scum. So do you thnik im bussing or avoiding a bus? Also,

belisaurus, I guess your right, but if you flipped scum I was suspicious of bluebird anyway, it wouldent have made much difference in my reads chart. I probably dident take into account the possibility of your flip coming first because im sure bluebird is dying first due to getting a d1 lynch (unless the sub turns it around)

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

witch, its page 3, theres not much to base off of does not contain much, its only page 4, page 3 at that time. The main thing is what Azorius said, which imo makes a lot of sense.

Once again, I could have just pmed my partner my reads if I was scum and just not post anything, since apparently it wouldent help me to do so since I would be branded scummy, so I dont see a reason for scum to post an early readlist. If I am town and doing that, why accuse me as scum when as scum, it doesent do anything but make me scummier to do so? Also, why is me posting a readlist scummy when hiplop did the same thing? Smudger, why are you complaining about my readslist, but not hiplops? (No, this is not a case on hiplop, this is just pointing out faulty logic in an argument, I dont see him as scummy for a readlist since I did the same.)

now that I think about it, What do you guys think about hiplop being the start of 2 wagons (me and belisarius) that both had faulty logic? I guess 1 is fine, but the fact that he started 2 seems scummy, altho I need to check his meta first

Just discussion points/addressing things directed at me.

I question how read lists are bad, if we arent sharing our reads, what are we doing?

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

Also, he has 13 useless posts, he made 1 post you agree with and you call him town for the 1 post and ignore the fact he made 13 useless posts?

and you have 14 posts, point out how those posts of mine that have questions in, which Curlynoodles seems to have missed, are useless?

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

questions here for you curlynooodles...

What I said was note aimed at you

ok, but based on my comment and that of Azorius above do you understand why I questioned your read list. plus you seem defensive and sating a lot of "if I was scum" "is this scummy" etc... I actually find that scummy. That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

Your post 101 is hard to follow who you are responding to or questioning, can I ask that you do something along the lines of split each question to an individual into a separate post, and/or quote the post you are responding to then comment. or do as I have done here by linking the post. And finally you could bold the name of the person you are interacting with such as

@ Smudger

... thanks

I don't understand, so you acknowledge that you read my post (you said it was formatted badly) but you still try to accuse me of something that I clearly stated in the same post I dident do? I see no motive for a townie to do something like this, but I dont see why scum would do it, since it would be way too obvious. I would say the push came from scum because now that I think about it, theres no way he could have missed when I said I changed my stance on him if he says im pushing him, which I first stated in that post and probably where he got it from. If he got it from my near one liner, then how did he read the post to assume it was sloppy formatting? I cant think of any reason for this besides the fact that hes scum. Explanation needed.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

actually, what explanation can a town use to justify smudgers actions?

UNVOTE: bluebird
VOTE: Smudger

I think he scumslipped, he should be lynched. Theres no way he missed the fact I still read him as null, but he tried to build a case on me as if I said he was scum anyway, if he knew I read him null, why would he lie? To push a case on a townie? (if you really want to confirm this, I offer to be lynched first, but I doubt you actually need the extra evidence, and no, this isent a "oh he tried to offer to be lynched and since scum wouldent do that he tried to make it look like he townslipped! Get him!")

[Some Random Mafia Player]

I am not scared to join the bluebird wagon, especially since no discussion actually happened on kim. The point of me doing it is now useless so UNVOTE: Kim VOTE: Bluebird and that one-liner that I made was because I dident see this. I think this justifies your read on me.

Ou. This is no good. I would expect you to continue whatever it is you were doing, not back down under pressure. This feels awkward and forced.

I agree with his logic here. Reads lists at this point in the game are pointless and may look proactive, but in reality they don't do much for us. It might actually benefit scum to a certain extent.

Depends how loyal one is to them. It is good for people to share their view on the game in order to be able to figure out contradictions and whatnot later on. Perhaps this is a bit early, but it really is a debatable point and not overly alignment indicative. His weird pushes on the other hand are absolutely scummy.

Notice the restraint he puts on the bluebird wagon, says he wants to join but doesn't, joins and then immediately discusses the chance of bluebird not showing up and giving him the benefit of the doubt. It just seems like an awkward attempt to keep bluebird alive. (I mean, of course give the replacement a shot, just his reaction to it is off)

So people voting for bluebird: want to tell more of why you think they're scum? Or is it just those opening posts and trying to put pressure to get a response out of her? It is pretty weird that she hasn't really posted since.

Tragically a part of why I'm here is to make you guys excited about mafia! We want to keep y'all around and get you to play in other games! Sometimes that isn't the case, unfortunately and you leave us

Side note: I'm aware this post sounds very defensive of Bluebird, but I'm honestly just genuinely curious about why some people seem so sure she's scum. I get the pressure thing. But beyond that I'm wondering what people's thought processes are.

re: defending bluebird, I think this is a GOOD, townie example of it. This post as a whole. Some Random's is the exact opposite where he defends the slot without actually saying why. He is playing like he knows more than the rest of us (his readslist, his ability to dismiss bluebird wagon, etc). He is playing like he is better informed than us, ala scum.

I kind of agree with what you're saying on the subject of read lists, though i understand how it could help scum. Also hiplop's realist did get called out and he justified it, saying he likes to give new players his thoughts to help them with the game. Personally I find them helpful, as a new player, just to see more of how people work through the logic in this game and get a feel for what people are thinking, however I totally understand how read lists could potentially help scum and, if you were scum, you could be doing it to encourage more people to do it (as opposed to just sending your scum partner your reads, which you mentioned earlier).

FWIW, it completely depends on the person/situation. Reads lists/sharing info is one of the best powers town has, but at the same time disclosing too much or too early can be a detriment. Honestly, there is no yes or no answer on this issue. I personally lean on the "read lists = good" side of things, but I'm sure you'll find others who think contrarily. Basically, it can cause people to play lazily and scum to nest comfortably inside a townread. I don't think that is particularly common, but it really is up for debate!

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that could be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are definitely useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

Yep! That is basically my stance on it too. Again, there is merit to keeping some cards close to your chest (AND THE ABILITY TO BE FLEXIBLE). Many a-games are lost due to people not wavering on their town reads. Smudge is more saying EARLY readslists are necessarily helpful, I believe, which is again debatable.

To me the problem is more that SRMP was able to CLEARLY and EASILY organize every player into a category. I couldn't do that now, not even close!

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

counterpoint: don't be a stubborn jerk about your reads lol.

Diden't look like a complaint

I think it did, quite glaringly too. Why are you so nervous about that push?

In fact the as I didn't put a "?" after my comment attached to the quote I made of your read list might point you in the direction that it was neither a complaint or a question, merely an observation, some might say a reaction test, which going by your overt defensive of a simple observation, well its a good reaction to gain. why did you think at that moment in the game you were under attack from me?

DING DING DING. He reacted very poorly, and almost certainly from a scum POV.

1. That's what talking and sharing information is for. In a reductio ad absurdum, nobody posts anything so scum can't work on misdirection, and in the end scum wins because town didn't have enough info to go with.
2. To win the game = to kill town.
3. Scum wins by default if town doesn't do anything. Town must be active and hunt scum to win. That's done by getting information.
That said, your and AzoriusSenate's point is that then scum can work on misdirection. Point accepted.

So, would you agree on this more nuanced statement: "read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

They grow up so fast *wipes tears from eyes*

I don't know of any tbh. No one really says that reads lists are bad...I don't think. Not many, anyway. People tend to oppose early ones but that REALLY isn't a big deal. I actually like them because I think it helped me catch scum in SRMP ^_^

>caught scum

>but you don't have a case

>telling everyone you caught scum, but not stating how

one of the last two is true

[Some Random Mafia Player]

his and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

really? as stated previously your reaction says otherwise

VOTE: Random Mafia Player

Your probably scum anyway, but what reaction? I'm curious

[Smudger]

his and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

really? as stated previously your reaction says otherwise

VOTE: Random Mafia Player

Your probably scum anyway, but what reaction? I'm curious

the ones you continue to make

so

my vote is good where it is...

[Some Random Mafia Player]

his and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

really? as stated previously your reaction says otherwise

VOTE: Random Mafia Player

Your probably scum anyway, but what reaction? I'm curious

the ones you continue to make

so

my vote is good where it is...

interesting how you ignore my questiong for explanation and continue pushing the case, don't have an explanation for your actions eh?

[Smudger]

what question?

[Some Random Mafia Player]

@Mod: you state 3 ppl arent voting, but list witch, kim, smudger, and curly.

@

AzoriusSenate

: Welcome!
I like your first post. Lean on information, but seems a legit effort. Interesting read on Bluebird. I'd interpreted her first post as noobtown indignated at being accused and overreacting, but it'd be interesting to see what she has to say for herself.

@

Some Random Mafia Player

:
I also liked your post, at first. Until I got to the end.
It has one

little

thing I don't understand: the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Your case on Bluebird follows on AzoriusSenate's and reinforces it, and most of your post is spent on it. So far, so good. Yet you vote on Kim, saying "havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird", though you only pointed to one post of his.

So, please enlighten me here. What's your case on Kim, and why vote him if he's not your strongest scumread?

As I stated, discussion lynch, and I mostly saw discussion on the ppl interacting with kim, not kim themself. That dident work though because due to doing that people discussed me for trying to start a discussion on kim instead of discussing kim because that was the whole point for the vote everyone sees as scummy in the first place.

Off topic: David Bowie. Rest in peace, man, and thank you for the music.

so your trying to tell me I shouldent try to find scum because its "not a town mindset?"

where do I say that? I am interested to understand why you would produce a read list so early in the game and from 3 pages of interaction? in addition what is your view on the thought is some minds that early read-lists can also be detrimental to a town player?

What I said was note aimed at you.

I would post an early read list because whats the problem with showing your thoughts early? I feel like this is opposed, due to kim doing it and suddenly getting branded scummy (which is not my reason) also addressed this seperately

and I would like you to explain how the second part makes any sense. When are showing your thoughts ever bad for town? if your not posting your thoughts, are we rving all day 1? I dont see it

And since I keep thinking of things. Another thing I want to point out was that I was not planning to stick with the lynch, so if I was bussing, why would I lead a lynch before hopping off the wagon? That would be scummy as fuck and get me lynch easily, then again, thats wifom. Now that i think of it, your assuming I am trying to avoid a bus (I think) if you are, how could I still be bussing? That would mean 3 scum. So do you thnik im bussing or avoiding a bus? Also,

belisaurus, I guess your right, but if you flipped scum I was suspicious of bluebird anyway, it wouldent have made much difference in my reads chart. I probably dident take into account the possibility of your flip coming first because im sure bluebird is dying first due to getting a d1 lynch (unless the sub turns it around)

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

witch, its page 3, theres not much to base off of does not contain much, its only page 4, page 3 at that time. The main thing is what Azorius said, which imo makes a lot of sense.

Once again, I could have just pmed my partner my reads if I was scum and just not post anything, since apparently it wouldent help me to do so since I would be branded scummy, so I dont see a reason for scum to post an early readlist. If I am town and doing that, why accuse me as scum when as scum, it doesent do anything but make me scummier to do so? Also, why is me posting a readlist scummy when hiplop did the same thing? Smudger, why are you complaining about my readslist, but not hiplops? (No, this is not a case on hiplop, this is just pointing out faulty logic in an argument, I dont see him as scummy for a readlist since I did the same.)

now that I think about it, What do you guys think about hiplop being the start of 2 wagons (me and belisarius) that both had faulty logic? I guess 1 is fine, but the fact that he started 2 seems scummy, altho I need to check his meta first

Just discussion points/addressing things directed at me.

I question how read lists are bad, if we arent sharing our reads, what are we doing?

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

Also, he has 13 useless posts, he made 1 post you agree with and you call him town for the 1 post and ignore the fact he made 13 useless posts?

and you have 14 posts, point out how those posts of mine that have questions in, which Curlynoodles seems to have missed, are useless?

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

questions here for you curlynooodles...

What I said was note aimed at you

ok, but based on my comment and that of Azorius above do you understand why I questioned your read list. plus you seem defensive and sating a lot of "if I was scum" "is this scummy" etc... I actually find that scummy. That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

Your post 101 is hard to follow who you are responding to or questioning, can I ask that you do something along the lines of split each question to an individual into a separate post, and/or quote the post you are responding to then comment. or do as I have done here by linking the post. And finally you could bold the name of the person you are interacting with such as

@ Smudger

... thanks

I don't understand, so you acknowledge that you read my post (you said it was formatted badly) but you still try to accuse me of something that I clearly stated in the same post I dident do? I see no motive for a townie to do something like this, but I dont see why scum would do it, since it would be way too obvious. I would say the push came from scum because now that I think about it, theres no way he could have missed when I said I changed my stance on him if he says im pushing him, which I first stated in that post and probably where he got it from. If he got it from my near one liner, then how did he read the post to assume it was sloppy formatting? I cant think of any reason for this besides the fact that hes scum. Explanation needed.

^ this