Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[franksa]

Oh, I forgot my comment.

I dont know how he is going to react, thats what I look forward to find out.

[KuroiXHF]

bit more deep in thought and active as scum. In games where he's innocent, he is barely there. I'm trying to see, once I finish, how his activity matches up to the activity in this game.

You mean like in 1665 where he won as scum and made a total of 10 posts during days 2 & 3?

Please link an active non-blitz scum-game from him.

For him being quiet? Probably.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=63370 Him being mafia, but more active and more in thought as opposed to his normal games.

[KuroiXHF]

Question for you, tictac - Why are you so stringently defending Pignash when all of your reads (739) reference pignash being most likely to be scum buddies with someone? It seems you were harshest against him, except perhaps against me. It's appearing that you're distancing yourself from him.

[tictac]

For him being quiet? Probably.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=63370 Him being mafia, but more active and more in thought as opposed to his normal games.

Replaces in at 3014, last game post is 3338. 20 gameposts total.
Post density 0.06, so bit less active there that he is here.
He does seem little deeper there thou.

Question for you, tictac - Why are you so stringently defending Pignash when all of your reads (739) reference pignash being most likely to be scum buddies with someone? It seems you were harshest against him, except perhaps against me. It's appearing that you're distancing yourself from him.

I said your vote on him was scummy. That doesn't mean I didn't want you to vote him.
The unvote was way scummier.

[KuroiXHF]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

There's 11 days until deadline... Why are you changing the goalposts for me?

[KuroiXHF]

Oh and BTW, I wasn't merely talking about the amount of posts but also the depth of the posts.

[tictac]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

There's 11 days until deadline... Why are you changing the goalposts for me?

Notice the words 'secondary scumread' and 'hammering'.
Neither of those applies here.

[camn]

The unvote was way scummier.

re's 11 days until deadline... Why are you changing the goalposts for me?

Neither of those applies here.

Kuroi really is reaching here.
pignash's hammer was super scummy, and warrants scrutiny
Kuroi's play just recently, also super scummy.

But this exchange? This is scum-desperation. Is kuroi trying to find some contradiction in tictac's post indicating that Kuroi's LYLOvote is somehow OK? I don't follow it.

speaking of pignash- wtf? where are you? How did that so-called readthrough go?

[tictac]

I don't think weak arguments are necessarily scummy.
I'm all for Kuroi trying to defend himself and going for the offensive a bit.

If he's scum he is giving us more content for tomorrow.
If he's town him poking holes in our logic is a good thing.
I'll make a proper case on him tomorrow, so he has something solid to defend against.

Also, I am with franksa on town being more likely to get desperate on LYLO.

[KuroiXHF]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

There's 11 days until deadline... Why are you changing the goalposts for me?

Notice the words 'secondary scumread' and 'hammering'.
Neither of those applies here.

The intention of your post was that with so much time left, there's nothing to hurt for discussion. I feel there's a bit of a contradiction, but I feel that tictac is much more of an experienced player than I am. I feel like I did find a bit of a contradiction, not much - although I still find tictac as far from scum from the lot that we have.

With that said, I'm probably on the chopping block. Pignash is the only one not riding my ass, but at the same time, where is he? There's a distinct possibility that since I brought up the point about him being more active as scum, he decided to take a step back, but I'm not holding too much of a stake on that.

Franksa has been quiet for a lot of the game until that last attack on me, although I like the post before that. I'm having a hard time which of the two I'm going to vote, although I'm open for anyone.

[camn]

I'm open for anyone

"Why go for actual scumlynches, when I am pretty much fine with my partner (for scumpoints) or any townie (for the win) getting lynched today?"

[KuroiXHF]

I'm open for anyone who is reasonably is presented as the best lynch. Want to quit twisting my words?

[tictac]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

The intention of your post was that with so much time left, there's nothing to hurt for discussion. I feel there's a bit of a contradiction, but I feel that tictac is much more of an experienced player than I am. I feel like I did find a bit of a contradiction, not much - although I still find tictac as far from scum from the lot that we have.

Ok. I can actually see how you might think that.
That is not the complete meaning of 709 thou.
There is a time and a place for compromising on your reads as a townie and it is when and only when there is no other choice.
Pig had poor reasons to scumread me, and he was scumreading Sarg even more weakly.

He could have used the rest of the day to get better reads and push them, maybe just get some reactions out of people so future lynches would have more to go on.
Instead he went for something that was very nearly random lynch from his POW (if he's town). He was very rushed about it going from intent to hammer in less than 24 hours, like he was fearing the chance of mislynch would pass. It was extremely poor play if he is town. If he is scum, the most likely motivation would be protecting you.

With that said, I'm probably on the chopping block.

Probably.
You will get a fair chance to defend yourself if I have anything to say about it thou.

Pignash is the only one not riding my ass, but at the same time, where is he? There's a distinct possibility that since I brought up the point about him being more active as scum, he decided to take a step back, but I'm not holding too much of a stake on that.

True. I do wish he would post soon.

Franksa has been quiet for a lot of the game until that last attack on me, although I like the post before that. I'm having a hard time which of the two I'm going to vote, although I'm open for anyone.

Fair warning then, franksa is my biggest townread, you my biggest scumread. Deciding between you two will not be hard for me.
If you are town and vote for frank you better have good reasons and be clear about them or you will lose.
Do push him if you like thou. He still hasn't linked camn defending him.

[tictac]

camn does seem a bit impatient, and it's making me paranoid about camn-pig.
@frank would you mind holding the intent till sunday?

[KuroiXHF]

I'm on my phone at work so I can't respond as much as I like but why is Franksa your biggest townread?

On top of that, why isn't that camn?

[tictac]

I'm on my phone at work so I can't respond as much as I like but why is Franksa your biggest townread?

On top of that, why isn't that camn?

Frank practicaly oozes newbtown to me. I really liked his case on Plot day1 and I like how he is now pushing you.
He makes mistakes an actual newbtown would make, like thinking you can't be scum with pig when you voted for him on LYLO and thinking being competent is a reason to go after Plot.

Camn might be buddying me, and that might be the reason I survived the night. I don't really like how she is so sure of things.
It's not an unusual playstyle for mafiascum-vet thou. She is pretty similar to the IC of my first game here who turned out to be town, but she is hard for me to read.

[pignash]

Ok. Readslist!

Town: Franksa

Town lean but one has to be scum: Tictac, Camn

Scum: Kuroi

Why?

Metaing me - After voting for me in LYLO, you throw the vote out for 2 scum to hammer (which they could have if you weren't one of them) and then you realize you should make a better case so you start metaing me afterwords to make a better case? That makes no sense. I don't even think meta helps that much, because people manipulate it.

Unvoting me - Most helpful thing for town was to not see a hammer after a day of the vote sitting on me. That means that at least one of us is scum and greatly clarifies the situation for town, as it is now, it is still murky. I think scum are more likely to do something that muddies the waters. I think town would stand by the vote even if it wasn't well thought out really. I think Kuroi is hiding behind inexperience as tictac has expressed a few times.

Concern about what other people think of him - 768 "Or would you rather me keep on a vote that everyone seems to be against?"

As to his partner is, I have some thoughts, but I want to hold those for a while.

I think the correct answer is lynching Kuroi for today.

[tictac]

Here's a case for you. Decided to keep it simple this time, cause I want clear answers. My previous case is 677 if people want to refer to that.

pig-vote(743):

Risked instant lose if town.

Says he did this because he didn't know about vote-piling, but I don't see how he could fail to know that.
- I explicitly warned people of that very thing in the first post of the day(708)
- He has experience with the game. I don't believe he was never at LYLO before.

Possible scum motivations:
- Distancing. I just made a case for strong associative between him and pig (739).
- Going for a mislynch. I was pushing for pig pretty hard. (this is less likely in my opinion)

Newb-acting

:
I made a case on him being more competent than he appears in 677. not going to repeat it here.

I'll keep things simple and narrow this down to single instance, thou I do think it is pervasive throughout his play.

I wondered if I was scumreading him because I assume too much competence from him(757)
and he says this in 763 : "Does that not ring a OMGYS bell in your head?"
- Kuroi knows mafia vocabulary.
- I accused him of OMGUS on day 1
- Kuroi never used words he doesn't know the meaning of before this.
- It is misspelled to boot, and Kuroi isn't normally prone to typos.

I don't think this can be a real mistake.
- That is a

very

unlikely coincidence if it's real.
- Mafia motivation for appearing less competent in that moment is clear.


So this is what I need from you Kuroi:
- Explain how you can not know mafia can pile on votes, despite having been told exactly that and having experience with mafia.
- Explain the usage of the term 'OMGYS' in 763 in a way that isn't "wanted to appear less competent". I don't accept a simple 'didn't know' on this. Explain why it's in any way believable that you didn't know.

@Kuroi I can not stress this enough:
If you are town I want you to actually defend against this. Don't just tell me I am wrong.
You use words like 'straw-man' and 'goalpost moving', so you know debate. Make actual arguments.

[tictac]

@pig
You think I might be scum with Kuroi? Really?
Do you have your own reasons to townread Frank or did you just copy that off me?

[pignash]

O think you are less likely than can at this point. I think Frank has been all over the place but I don't buy a Frank/Kuroi team.

[franksa]

As to his partner is, I have some thoughts, but I want to hold those for a while.

Pignash, would you be so kind to share your thoughts on the 2nd scum?

[pignash]

I'd rather not yet. I'm likely to be alive in lylo with how bad I've played and I don't want scum knowing who to kill.

[franksa]

I think only scum would talk like this. Since they are still not sure whom to kill tonight, they didnt want to give away a name in case they would chose him to be killed.
If you are town then you should give us every information you have. I dont see any reasons to hold onto you oppinion. Even if you die, your contribution could help town to win the game and you would win with us.

[pignash]

I disagree. I did already mention I think it's more likely Camn.

[tictac]

I disagree. I did already mention I think it's more likely Camn.

@frank There are plenty of reasons to scumread pig, but this isn't one. Gavin in when you pushed would have been the scummy response.
Not wanting to inform the NK is valid.