Mini 1755: Game Over

[AxleGreaser]

@1620 I will have further look at your post and AI, but IRL has demands on me for a while, then i expect to be exhausted by what I am about to do...

I am pretty sure there is not all that much to be gained,

and the best place to look is in the scummy looking peoples filters for words from their own mouth. (or the lack of towny ones from their own mouth)

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm pretty fucking reluctant to vote GR too, yeah.

what does it mean though?

[AxleGreaser]

i'm pretty fucking reluctant to vote GR too, yeah.

what does it mean though?

Oh you want detailed explanation of meaning.... I can do that.

That you are reluctant to vote GR and and have the reasons you have and have not said in the thread.
It means you have a reason you wont and have not said.
Given you also have said:

Spoiler: RC self meta

self meta

Would you believe I'm just feeling like being a lazy fuck right now?

Can I just 'welp I'm rc' and have everyone vote this player?

I'm not good at this.

and although that is self meta it agrees with my recollection of your play.
You are not good at this whole give reasons thing. When you do they frequently don't make sense to me nor do i find them persuasive. That means that as scum your get to just shit up the thread with various theories that dont make sense to people(me) and it looks pretty much just like town RC.

conclusion

So one conclusion is none hijacked your accoutn and you are posting pretty much like yourself, but an even more IDGAF version than usual.

In a more general sense

As you are not in fact putting that reason for not lynching GR forward, it also means you are not actually trying to make sure that GR doesn't get lynched, you just want for some reason to be seen saying you oppose it, without actually making a determined push. Id point out how scummy doing that kind of thing can be, but TBMrecollection that is pretty much how you play. There do also exist towny possible reasons to adopt stance like that, and at this time I have no expressed opinion about whether you are doing like that(for a towny reason) or not. (also I have not actually drawn that conclusion, youd need to have started actually playing the game, for me to make judgments like that.)

If i was just reading your play this game your slot would have significantly different read to what Droog made of it before he left.

So pulling things in isolation like, "RC is reluctant to vote GR, is not all that useful", analysing or requesting analysis of points in isolation like that is bad. So that is SNAFU too.

and then there is the rest of the post 1624 that you seem to have overlooked which is Heat also scum reading GR recently

You recently suggested massive might be scum. I have different view. One of the things he has been doing is generally known as "Working the game out", one of the ways i have observed him do that is he has no problem working out by reading the thread things such as:

Ircher at no point gave any indication he had a role related check. Indeed reading the thread and trying to work it out would have made it abundantly clear that was not what was going on.
You by way of contrast >claimed< not to understand that, you have effectively by your loose/bad PR related play, claimed vanilla town, go you, now your survival which apparently is way more important to you than your town wincon is greatly enhanced.

or

... that would also be >>consistent<< with a scum RC trying to establish in advance reason why they have not been night killed. That is becuase IMO RC, is so frequently sure they are so good and dangerous to scum that RC is bound to be the night kill. So as scum I expect you will frequently try and establish reasons your not dead. But as i said I have also got the read on your slot from Droogs townier play, so that is just dripping tap material so far.

I suppose,
I could spoon feed you what I observed like you're a rank noob if you like?

[AxleGreaser]

I wasn't expecting AI to get nked tbh
I also wasn't expecting ras to flip scum but w/e. I love surprises!

Time to go look at who AI was scumreading

And if heat is scum as my read of their filter suggest to me. THEN on this occasion one reason to kill AI as opposed to anyone else would be because (on average) the AI filter implicated people other than scum.
but that would likely be a bonus as the shot was likely a blue snipe.

Another thing of note is that while Heat says that he thought that was a useful thing to do, and obliquely egged on that someone would do it, and implicitly indicated he would, he didn't then do it.

Scum killing a towny who has wrong reads, can then behave like that, suggesting idly that someone ought do it. Maybe even saying they will but then dont. Why Don't they actuaally do it?. Because they don't want their own hands dirty they want someone else to follow the misdirect of following the dead townies reads.
In contrast towny who believes we ought examine, who AI was scum reading and then says they are going to do just that...
A towny then reasonably often does indeed do what they said they would.

This is yet another thing that leans scum for me.

[AxleGreaser]

That you are reluctant to vote GR and and have the reasons you have and have not said in the thread.
It means you have a reason you wont and have not said.

yeah Ok so Houdini would be trouble working that sentence out.

That you are reluctant to vote GR and and have the reasons(unstated one)
and you have and have not said those (unstated reasons) in the thread.

It means you have a reason(the unstated ones) you wont and have not said. << yeah it was just a tautology.

[AxleGreaser]

Pisskop and GR aren't buddies. Go back and reread Deus' attack on pisskop from D1. There's no reason Deus tries to prolong the push on pisskop if they're buddies.

FYI: i was probably just wiggling my bum around in 1601 and the bit about most things being moot is where my head is at.
If someone else flips scum such as Deus/GR, then who they made pushes on that were not distancing pushes will be useful.

re your not Deus/PK statement. I have not looked at the context aka "prolong"
but just
217 feels wrong for distancing push. (it has the wrong kind of zing to it.)

I once, while spectating/stalking saw a very severe, distancing push and then pinged the whole scum team based on it. This feels like actual, throwing shade that might get the guy lynched.
(Hmm.... feelsz. perhaps i can explain the feelz with: I can use the words malice and forethought to describe 217)
What could amount to prolonging even for scum scum it is if PK arranged pregame for an extended PL like push(hence less likely to be fatal) to be made. As a way to look busy, and yet be out of the light, and eventually whoever doesn't flip rides it as town cred?
but while I do keep wondering about that as a theoretical possibility I don't see that happen in the scum PTs all that much.

but that aside 217 feels wrong, for scum vs scum.

Spoiler: addendum

Also now I am finally happy. quite some time ago i was rereading the thread and read

I dont care about your question. Post some content now you creepy ass avatar.

and i realised I was perhaps indeed mis(feel)reading the slot based on my feeling about a creepy ass avatar
I tried turning avatars off for bit and reading the thread but it didnt help.

Now that I have what I don't like about, 217 sorted in my head, the avatar don't look creepy assed. 217 Looks malice and forethought.
TLDR: Small potatoes for Deus alignment, but somewhat stronger for not buddies.

For me: To get alignment indicative for Deus: Deus would need to have not replaced out and then either been consistent with that stance or not.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP @1627...
As I recall it.
Massive hasnt stated he understood that particular thing yet, but it is, as I said, the kind of thing he routinely just works out because he is trying to work the game out.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: preamble

If as means of not being a dick, and breaking game rule zero, you start with true kind and necessary
it is often necessary in mafia to be fewer than all of those things, compromises are required. In this case somewhat unusually it is possible I will compromise true in a way I normally don't, despite LAL, but only in places that are not alignment indicative or exactly game relevant. Not sure yet and not sure i will remember to come back and remove/renuance this if I dont.

Oh you want detailed explanation of meaning.... I can do that.

in extensive detail even

continuing analysis of AI interactions.

There is problem best shown by example.

but first a word from piss and vinegar (The sponsor of todays post)

Spoiler: P&V

Describing the non material aspects of humans is hard and error prone.
These two/three posts

AI, youre full of piss and vinegar today?

Made it to the bottom of 25. My impression so far of those four pages:

Player: "Hey but what about this possible game-related idea or thought?"
pisskop / AI / droog: "Never mind that, have you seen the size of our dongs?"

Honestly guys, there is nothing alignment-indicative in your dongs, put them away please.

This is us fighting:

all talk about the same thing just with differing POVs,

it
the thing

is what I am talking about when i talk about piss and vinegar. (choose your own POV for what it looks like from where you stand)

Consider the problem I identified that AI had been

I'd highly likely think they killed him thinking he was a blue role. he did spend most of D1 acting like he was "special" in some way.

Why a problem? Well that is the example.

Lets be a little cheaty analyze Keyser, where we all happen to know the answer. (both were town)

Spoiler: Keyser For use as benchmark TvT interaction

Keyser I believe got the implied joke troll of post 7 See

DO NOT FAKE CLAIM

Massive 108 is more what I expected as a "general" reply but i forgot Keyser is keyser so I got 8.
So with that as basis for where Keyser's head is at...

26 28 33 Shows Keysers, reaction to people scum reading it....
Keyser is fairly clearly chasing alignment indicative information.
(his characterization of our relative number of games (on this forum) may be accurate, but is perhaps little misleading about what Id expect both to know... especially given as stated I had stalked Keyser a bit.)
meh he is chasing "is scum indicative." Now theoretically good scum can try to pressure noob into folding up in heap and getting lynched like that... (which is really quite towny,). but I dont see that very often, (and besdies this is NOT so much reading the interaction as just reading keyser as i did at the time.)

Keyser goes on trying to sort a bunch of people, now it was his interaction with me that I found most interesting, in that by doing what he did he was losing the chance to see me interact in the mess of my own making. (Seemed like bad idea to me at the time)
However we are doing AI's interactions
By 63 he is voting AI.

By 78 he appeared to be contemplating banging his privates on steel bar as opposed to some alternatives on offer.... (almost tilted?) (I was, so maybe I was just projecting)

and then on a dime he turned. (79 83 86)

As scum, if Keyser was scum (yeah I know hes flipped but this is a worked example on known solution kk)

If Keyser is looking to, by pressuring the noobs, crack one and suddenly he guesses one might have so much gumption because he is a PR, what might scum do?
Back off and nk them.
A player who is scum has head start in that PR guessing game, as they know in advance the "piss and vinegar" is not from rolling scum and being able to kill those you disagree with, and finally having one up on everyone else by being "in the know", they know who the scum team is, so the other ones that look like they got an "interesting" PM, could be power roles.

I was immensely conflicted at the time. I spent a large swathe of the day, being (privately) concerned about AI's alignment, especially if he had rolled scum with you(Ircher) as while it seemed less likely given how overt he was being, having recently won a scum game at LYLO in game against you, if he was now scum with you, pregame you guys might have talked yourselves into something dramatic and grandious as strategy. I couldn't make the pieces fit for anything. My plan was to let the day go by and if/when people were ever flipped then it would explain itself. (Not a D1 problem).

Returning to Keyser...
So Keysers direction flipped suddenly, I have difficulty trying to work out which kinds of reactions and direction changes were in fact motivated by guessing the play might be role related (Which can easily make townies flipping their read look to be fabricating reasons, because they are),
which were genuine reads that the person is actually in the right place just doing it badly.
Here is Keyser and pisskop agreeing with a "reason", they thought AI was trying to force us out of LYLO. 104

Here is me slowing down the progress, of my and your discussion 90, because i need to be able to temporarily walk away from a scum read on you if I am not going to flat out confront AI big time D1.
(also because I thought time would indeed help)
Here is me putting it on the never never 116 118

I had already (at 90) decided to go elsewhere that day, but did not want to be seen turning so close to me noticing Keyser turn.

Basically from my own knowledge and my own best guesses, some creative truth telling may have happened D1.

Oh well when i wrote the above spoiler, I dipped into other peoples reactions a bit. (Also know my own alignment and the reactions are all mixed up)

As contrast here is the flipped scum reacting to AI

Spoiler: Raskolnikov

But now in addition Ircher is saying he gut-reads AI despite not liking his posts and its based on something that'd be "prob. be best I didn't say.", which is kind of fishy. I don't think being in a scumteam would explain this behaviour, I get the feeling they're in a neighbourhood or something else is going on I can't understand.

Here 676 is UTL backing off from Ircher, who scum Rask thought might be in a neighborhood with AI. My best guess is that is UTL working out something weird is happening and backing off.
This 728 if they are both scum, could be UTL making sure Rask notices the previous post, or it could be UTL just explaining exactly what they say they were in 732
Those were thoughts I had earlier probably at about real time.
Reexmaining it now, 984 does not look like scum who has worked out they think AI and Ircher have some special power based relationship. (which they turned out not have)
Perhaps it was digging for confirmation?

GR :I dont find or remember significant interactions

Heat:
Sometimes the feel of the moxie in post like this one makes me wonder if the poster is scum

Spoiler: 665

scapegoat taken away from you.

Ah, it is quite fun how scum try to target the so called "easy" tarhets only to find it is way more difficult than they imagined......

don't flatter yourself.

Sometimes some people are naturally full of piss and vinegar

Spoiler: video

as for the rest of the players interactions

Would you believe I'm just feeling like being a lazy fuck right now?

HOWEVER
TLDR: I dont like the summary that just the interactions might give.

Reading UTL and heat for actual alignment using all tools available... Yields my current reads

Where i want to lynch GR and Heat, and then see if the game is over.

[AxleGreaser]

It must be daytime or playtime for you guys sometime soon?

[AxleGreaser]

@GR,

please explain why you highlighted the rd bits that you did?

In particular 622

I want to lynch AI today.

&&

push me

seem entirely unrelated to the asscoiated comments.

213

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

&&

good evidence of scum

also seem unrelated to the associated comment
676

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. also seem unrelated to the associated comment

Spoiler: an earlier post

Personally, I'm against the following lynches for D1:

{AI, Heat, Keyser, Ircher, Axle, Droog, Pisskop}

Why shouldn't we lynch Heat? What do you think he's done to stand out as a town?
[spoiler2=]

I want to lynch AI today.

Hes been avoiding questions all week, and is trying to

push me

based on stupid shit he can't even prove (how tf am I being opportunistic this game?) and I hate how he defends ircher

I've only skimmed the parts I missed but those are my thoughts atm.

Why would scum self-vote? What would they hope to gain from it?

1. I think there's a misunderstanding between Heat and me.

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

. As explained in my first game here, self-voting is objectively bad and

good evidence of scum

. I did not vote because I am wary of mislynches. Which, in Newbie 1666, you will be able to see I tend to err on the cautious side of things. Not to mention that we had three mislynches in a row that game (Zombie, who self-voted, Jake, who was being stubborn and uncooperative, and myself, because we were in lylo and there was lke a wall between me and DoTA who was town.) My reaction is normal.

I mean, self voting is bad and its a scummy action, but it doesn't necessarily make someone scum. The whole "lets PL pisskop!!" came really quickly after a few posts; I'm still holding my opinion that it was very opportunistic of you. In addition, you're now townreading pk, but you still aren't really stopping your whole policy lynch crusade? Do you still want to PL him?

The reads I gave at the time were the only reads I had. But atm they haven't changed much. AG, keysoze, and PK all seem town, although I'm not as sure on pk. I like UTL for town too.

AI and ircher are still scum. ras is getting worse.

HEY RAS WHY ARE YOU TOWNREADING ME

(you never answered </3)

@Ras Same, why are you town reading him?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

I was a little turned off by his tunnel on PK, simply because I feel like he's feeding right into PK's obnoxious game. However, it seems like he's trying to engage with him more now, instead of just poke at him, which I like. He's asked people who aren't really giving much out about their reads, including you. I really don't see anything scummy with him wanting to hear from you before explaining his reads, as at that point you really hadn't given much. Has to be a give and take, ya know? Overall, I'm leaning town on him.

(I'd still like to know about his flip flop on me.)


Heat, might I ask why you like me for town?

UTL started out with some

really strong analysis

that I liked, and I do agree with a lot of her views on players, namely keysor and Pk.

She also has an Asuna avatar and I'm SAO trash so

Really strong analysis? What does that even mean? You mean this post down here?

Let’s talk about this wagon on PK. Burning and Ras voted him in RVS, then AI jumps on the wagon, changing his vote from Ircher to PK “because he’s scum.” He later lists his reasons, where Keyser “feels like sheeping this” and jumps on too, at which point PK just gives up and selfvotes putting himself at L-2 because he doesn’t care and this game is dumb. Ircher now wants to lynch him based on his poor attitude (but isn’t doing anything about it?).

AI’s reasons for voting him aren’t bad. PK has been at him with nothing of substance, with no sense of real intent. Unless, of course, he was just trying to see what reaction he could get out of the guy that, at the time, wasn’t really contributing much either. If that’s the case, it worked. He definitely got a reaction.

What’s really bothering me is the selfvote. He says he doesn’t care about this game, and yet, he doesn’t want to let somebody who does sub in for him. At this point, we’re put in a crappy situation. If we Policy Lynch like Ircher is suggesting, he may flip town and we’re already down on day 1, which isn't a good start. If we don’t and he survives the night, he may just continue with his current level of participation (or lack thereof) and draining attitude.

I guess what I want to know, PK, is what exactly is your intent with the selfvote?

What parts of the post do you like? Do you agree that we should PL PK? Why?

@UTL I may have missed it but what's your read on AI , for pushing on your demise? You voted Ircher instead of AI.

You know, I really don’t get his vote on me. He says I’m opportunistic, but I don’t get how. If that were the case, there are a couple of wagons I could have jumped on, but didn’t, because I wasn’t 100% comfortable with them. I reread some things, and decided to see if I could get a reaction out of him as to maybe lend some insight into his thought process. He has been defending Ircher all game, no great reasons why. So, I decided to put pressure on Ircher to see 1) how he would react and 2) if he would give any more insight as to why he’s so sure Ircher is town.

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. No real insight here. But then we get this:

The town-Ircher I know from Newbie 1666 is extremely open about his views, even when they are sometimes contradictory, or controversial.

I know this, because I was the scum framing him for his mistakes. We lynched Ircher in LYLO and won the game.

I am not going to let that happen now that I am town.

@Ircher, why is UTL opportunistic? Is he taking advantage of something? Explain.[/spoiler2]

[RadiantCowbells]

Spoiler: preamble

If as means of not being a dick, and breaking game rule zero, you start with true kind and necessary
it is often necessary in mafia to be fewer than all of those things, compromises are required. In this case somewhat unusually it is possible I will compromise true in a way I normally don't, despite LAL, but only in places that are not alignment indicative or exactly game relevant. Not sure yet and not sure i will remember to come back and remove/renuance this if I dont.

Oh you want detailed explanation of meaning.... I can do that.

in extensive detail even

continuing analysis of AI interactions.

There is problem best shown by example.

but first a word from piss and vinegar (The sponsor of todays post)

Spoiler: P&V

Describing the non material aspects of humans is hard and error prone.
These two/three posts

AI, youre full of piss and vinegar today?

Made it to the bottom of 25. My impression so far of those four pages:

Player: "Hey but what about this possible game-related idea or thought?"
pisskop / AI / droog: "Never mind that, have you seen the size of our dongs?"

Honestly guys, there is nothing alignment-indicative in your dongs, put them away please.

This is us fighting:

all talk about the same thing just with differing POVs,

it
the thing

is what I am talking about when i talk about piss and vinegar. (choose your own POV for what it looks like from where you stand)

Consider the problem I identified that AI had been

I'd highly likely think they killed him thinking he was a blue role. he did spend most of D1 acting like he was "special" in some way.

Why a problem? Well that is the example.

Lets be a little cheaty analyze Keyser, where we all happen to know the answer. (both were town)

Spoiler: Keyser For use as benchmark TvT interaction

Keyser I believe got the implied joke troll of post 7 See

DO NOT FAKE CLAIM

Massive 108 is more what I expected as a "general" reply but i forgot Keyser is keyser so I got 8.
So with that as basis for where Keyser's head is at...

26 28 33 Shows Keysers, reaction to people scum reading it....
Keyser is fairly clearly chasing alignment indicative information.
(his characterization of our relative number of games (on this forum) may be accurate, but is perhaps little misleading about what Id expect both to know... especially given as stated I had stalked Keyser a bit.)
meh he is chasing "is scum indicative." Now theoretically good scum can try to pressure noob into folding up in heap and getting lynched like that... (which is really quite towny,). but I dont see that very often, (and besdies this is NOT so much reading the interaction as just reading keyser as i did at the time.)

Keyser goes on trying to sort a bunch of people, now it was his interaction with me that I found most interesting, in that by doing what he did he was losing the chance to see me interact in the mess of my own making. (Seemed like bad idea to me at the time)
However we are doing AI's interactions
By 63 he is voting AI.

By 78 he appeared to be contemplating banging his privates on steel bar as opposed to some alternatives on offer.... (almost tilted?) (I was, so maybe I was just projecting)

and then on a dime he turned. (79 83 86)

As scum, if Keyser was scum (yeah I know hes flipped but this is a worked example on known solution kk)

If Keyser is looking to, by pressuring the noobs, crack one and suddenly he guesses one might have so much gumption because he is a PR, what might scum do?
Back off and nk them.
A player who is scum has head start in that PR guessing game, as they know in advance the "piss and vinegar" is not from rolling scum and being able to kill those you disagree with, and finally having one up on everyone else by being "in the know", they know who the scum team is, so the other ones that look like they got an "interesting" PM, could be power roles.

I was immensely conflicted at the time. I spent a large swathe of the day, being (privately) concerned about AI's alignment, especially if he had rolled scum with you(Ircher) as while it seemed less likely given how overt he was being, having recently won a scum game at LYLO in game against you, if he was now scum with you, pregame you guys might have talked yourselves into something dramatic and grandious as strategy. I couldn't make the pieces fit for anything. My plan was to let the day go by and if/when people were ever flipped then it would explain itself. (Not a D1 problem).

Returning to Keyser...
So Keysers direction flipped suddenly, I have difficulty trying to work out which kinds of reactions and direction changes were in fact motivated by guessing the play might be role related (Which can easily make townies flipping their read look to be fabricating reasons, because they are),
which were genuine reads that the person is actually in the right place just doing it badly.
Here is Keyser and pisskop agreeing with a "reason", they thought AI was trying to force us out of LYLO. 104

Here is me slowing down the progress, of my and your discussion 90, because i need to be able to temporarily walk away from a scum read on you if I am not going to flat out confront AI big time D1.
(also because I thought time would indeed help)
Here is me putting it on the never never 116 118

I had already (at 90) decided to go elsewhere that day, but did not want to be seen turning so close to me noticing Keyser turn.

Basically from my own knowledge and my own best guesses, some creative truth telling may have happened D1.

Oh well when i wrote the above spoiler, I dipped into other peoples reactions a bit. (Also know my own alignment and the reactions are all mixed up)

As contrast here is the flipped scum reacting to AI

Spoiler: Raskolnikov

But now in addition Ircher is saying he gut-reads AI despite not liking his posts and its based on something that'd be "prob. be best I didn't say.", which is kind of fishy. I don't think being in a scumteam would explain this behaviour, I get the feeling they're in a neighbourhood or something else is going on I can't understand.

Here 676 is UTL backing off from Ircher, who scum Rask thought might be in a neighborhood with AI. My best guess is that is UTL working out something weird is happening and backing off.
This 728 if they are both scum, could be UTL making sure Rask notices the previous post, or it could be UTL just explaining exactly what they say they were in 732
Those were thoughts I had earlier probably at about real time.
Reexmaining it now, 984 does not look like scum who has worked out they think AI and Ircher have some special power based relationship. (which they turned out not have)
Perhaps it was digging for confirmation?

GR :I dont find or remember significant interactions

Heat:
Sometimes the feel of the moxie in post like this one makes me wonder if the poster is scum

Spoiler: 665

scapegoat taken away from you.

Ah, it is quite fun how scum try to target the so called "easy" tarhets only to find it is way more difficult than they imagined......

don't flatter yourself.

Sometimes some people are naturally full of piss and vinegar

Spoiler: video

as for the rest of the players interactions

Would you believe I'm just feeling like being a lazy fuck right now?

HOWEVER
TLDR: I dont like the summary that just the interactions might give.

Reading UTL and heat for actual alignment using all tools available... Yields my current reads

Where i want to lynch GR and Heat, and then see if the game is over.

"all the tools"

man shut the fuck up really.

[RadiantCowbells]

k everyone who isn't AxleGreaser please vote UTL with me.

[AxleGreaser]

k everyone who isn't AxleGreaser please vote UTL with me.

because....

[RadiantCowbells]

I am a shepherd leading my flock to glorious scum lynch pastures.

[AxleGreaser]

I'm not good at this.

Oh yeah now I remember.

[UpTooLate]

Catch up day

[Heat]

Walls walls walls
Gotta love them

[RadiantCowbells]

I remember when I used to wallpost all the time.

[massive]

UPTOOLATE

274 is wiggly fluffposting. Lots of townreads and townleans and no pressure. 440 is actually better, and with 460 catches something new (at that time) on Ircher, so she's not just parrotting pressure on Ircher. Don't like how she abandons it in 676, and her reasons for voting Heat are WAY worse than her reasons for voting Ircher. Primary wagon at this time is Rask; UTL is already on the counterwagon (Ircher) at this time so why jump if scum? (The Heat wagon ultimately goes nowhere.) The follow-up in 686 is kinda wishy-washy, like she's concerned about pressure she's receiving from AI/Keyser and that it's directly related to her scumread of Ircher. Could be why she jumps off Ircher too. Was feeling exactly like Keyser by the time I got to his 800 but I actually like 804 -- trying to get a read on AI by attacking Ircher isn't conventional but it isn't necessarily wrong. Don't like 805 though where she goes back to wanting to lynch one of { AI, Ircher } despite getting nothing out of her attempted read AND despite her still voting for Heat at this point. 1086 Puts Performer at L-1 and the post not only follows logically from her previous-stated views on Performer but includes up-to-date reactions to other cases.

HEAT

114 I think scum-Heat would push the self-vote as scummy since that's easy, and not that it's non-indicative. Heat/PK is a possibility, but I think scum-Heat keeps his mouth shut in that case. 117 Heat wants to stop the PK wagon. Consistency is good through 357. Soft-defends ("ML bait") / distances from Rask in 382. Heat is probably even less likely than Ircher to NK AI N1 since he spent all D1 attacking him.

... I just realized I skimmed over a ton of Heat's ISO because the head changed. 880 is Heat's first post on D2. Like, 698 is fine but it's almost like Heat is a hydra and the other head started posting, and there's suddenly not a lot of content in the posts and I get to 1056 and was like wha huh? (Yes I realize Heat is not a hydra, what I mean is that his content changed unexpectedly, which could be to divert attention.) I do like 1056 though, did Heat follow-up on looking at AI? Nope and he forgets he already unvoted Ircher when he moves onto Performer (L-1) in 1137 ... at this point he has mentioned Performer / interacted with Performer only once (in a joke post no less) up to listing him on par with Ircher as a scumread in 917? Where did this scumread / "ok with lynch of either" come from? I do like 1490 as subtly townie, because this isn't the type of post I would think of making as scum. Not that scum couldn't make it, it just seems ... finesse-y as scum, and Heat hasn't been finesse-y up to this point.

THOUGHTS

... there's a lot of parallels in Heat and UTL's ISOs. Both under pressure from AI on D1, neither anywhere near the Rask wagon, both townread by Rask, both on the Performer wagon, both independently putting Performer at L-1

... UTL is more likely to kill AI N1 than Heat (both were being pressed by AI but UTL was trying to placate him whereas Heat was attacking back)

... UTL is more likely to be actually scumhunting; I can follow the logic in most of her reads and read changes, whereas Heat has shifts that don't track

I do think one of them is likely scum (not both) and it's a pick-em for me at this point. Gonna go back and look at Keyser's ISO and see if I see anything that would make one or the other want to kill him more N2.

[Boonskiies]

I do think one of them is likely scum (not both) and it's a pick-em for me at this point. Gonna go back and look at Keyser's ISO and see if I see anything that would make one or the other want to kill him more N2.

I can agree with this.

[Boonskiies]

You guys are making me see things.

[massive]

Keyser's more on UTL than Heat, and if I can see UTL being the more likely of the two to kill AI N1, it also follows that she'd be the more likely of the two to kill Keyser N2.

[Golden Robster]

I do think one of them is likely scum (not both) and it's a pick-em for me at this point. Gonna go back and look at Keyser's ISO and see if I see anything that would make one or the other want to kill him more N2.

Keyser's more on UTL than Heat, and if I can see UTL being the more likely of the two to kill AI N1, it also follows that she'd be the more likely of the two to kill Keyser N2.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: UTL

[Golden Robster]

If UTL flips town then it's probably heat

[massive]

Have you ever expressed a suspicion of either of them up to this point?