0. Players: Summer, Yawn, mhsmith/fire, Green/Aoto, Egg/Ryu, Ircher/hex, KAAG, UTL, Aero
1. Aeronaut needs a new IC color; one) It's the mod color and 2) It's too dark for me to read (MafBlack theme fyi) (Referenced -
7. Also, under etiquette, you state "Never Self-hammer". While I understand you are the IC and what you say is true as you know it, what I've been taught is that it's ok for scum to self-hammer, just not town.
2.
8 - That color is much better.
Mod Note: For clarity I edited Post
7 to use the purple he's used in all other IC text
3. A wagon is forming already Day 1..... Ryu votes UTL in
5, Aero votes UTL in
9, and Summer votes UTL in
19. -
Meh, it's a nebie & UTL isn't in danger of being lynched. I just hate wagons that form quickly during RVS. Oh, and on the flip side, wagons may be more dangerous in newbies in case there's that one newbie who doesn't understand you state intent to hmmer before lynching. -
Null-Indicative
4.
22 by Aero asks 3 questions to get the game going. (Bit weird, but not unheard). My responses -
1) Job of Town is to lynch scum. 2) Lurk, opportunistically join wagons, fakeclaim, WIFOM 3) Definitely Aero, though I'm biased, as I replaced in & could see all who was prodded/replaced -
Null-Inicative
5. Aata's responses in
24 - 1) Town start moving (aka, get active, scumhunt, etc) 2) Distract from relevant convo (includes a note about self doing same as Mafia) 3) Gut = Summer for using vote/gif while confused -
I have mixed thoughts here. The first answer makes it seem more likely that Aata is new to the site whereas the third option makes me think he's newer in general. His second answer catches my attn. about how he would do what he said as Mafia, but I would prob. do the same, so null there. Still a -
Null-Indicative
- I guess..
6. Aero votes KAAG in
29 for too perfect of a post. -
I'd say I disagree with Aero and agree with the evidence in Aata's post that KAAG pointed out, but not the conclusion. (
Oh, and PS - Drixx was my IC for my first *ahem* real game of mafia (I played 2 small forum, pr heavy games before on a site totally unrelated to mafia) - He was w pretty good IC; firsthand account /comment over) At worse, I'd say KAAG was being opportunistic and trying to frame a newbie for newb mistakes/etc, but I have no reason to come to that conclusion yet. "Too perfect to be town" is not a valid argument as it suffers from the same logical fallancies as "too town to be town" and "too scummy to be scum" do; all of those depend on the player, outside circumstances, luck (as in inspired some days, whereas others you have nothing to say), interest, and many other factors. In other words, unless a player's
meta
strongly indicates otherwise (but do note -- metas can change & metas can be manipulated), there are too many unknowns for anyone to make any conclusion about such a post on that premise aside from null indicative. -
Null-Scum Indicative
7.
35 - KAAG votes Hex for not posting within the first 12(?) hrs of the game despite being an SE -
Before I state further, that's literally what he said: "For no posts yet as SE" (Timestamp = Tues, March 8 6:25 AM) First post was on Mon, March 7 11:49 PM (almost midnight) - So, actually, that's only 8 hrs. RBS or not, that's lousy reasoning for voting a person, as some people may either 1) Be asleep during that time or 2) At work/school. That's why prod guidelines are 48 hrs -- For timezone diffs & so people juggle mafia to their RL schedule. KAAG compounds this poor reasoning by making the assumption that SEs should be more likely to post then newbies. I beg to differ; again, playstyle-relate not-alignment indicative stuff. So, even when making RVS votes, please, PLEASE give it a reason that would actually make some sense. OMGUS is fine. Jokes are fine. Stupid reasons like not posting in
8
hrs is ridiculous. -
Null-Scum Indicative
8.
@Summer in
44 - As Aata is also new(er?) to the game, I find his comment null indicative. Sure, it sounded kinda scummy to me. But, one thing you will learn here is that meta (the way a player plays) can have an adverse effect on how you read a person. Too often, scum get their mislynches in newbies by targeting the player who makes the most newb tells (generally scummy things that newer players tend to do). So with those 2 points in mind, I cannot make a statement on Aata's alignment from that info alone.
9.
@UTL - In regards to
51 - On the contrary, I'd say its null indicative unless you have strong evidence to believe otherwise, as "Too Townie to be Town" is a logical fallancy.
10. Aero mysteriously townreads Ryu in
65 -
I don't see any evidence of you having a townread there, so my question to you (
and I do want an answer
) is why do you have a townread of Ryu at this point. I understand your other reads. The ones I disagree with are Ryu who should be null imo, and Summer who I slightly townread. -
Null-Indicative; Possible Ryu Association (?)
11.
@Yawn in
67 - I have no clue where you get 1/5 from in terms of random lynching scum. Without prs, its simply 2/9; with PRs doesn't change much; 1=1/4 while 2=2/7. I don't like the way you think we are almost guaranteed to mislynch. I actually find it scummy, though I cannot express in words exactly why I find this scummy. -
Null-Scum Indicative
12. UTL votes Yawn in
68 for 1) Defeatist attitude and 2) Yawn thinking pressuring only KAAG / UTL would be effective -
Overall, I concur with UTL, but I would like to address a slight... disagreement I have about point 2. While it's true Yawn could pressure anyone, pressuring someone does not work if that person isn't around to respond. At the time, Yawn must've concluded UTL and KAAG were the two most active, and therefore the best people to pressure. The caveat and why I agree with UTL's reasons in general is Aero was posting a good bit too as was Summer, so pressure applied there would've also been worthwhile. Overall, I'm at the following reads: Town = Summer, UTL, KAAG, Aero; Scum = Yawn, Aata; everyone else is null. -
Towm-Indicative (for UTL)
-
Addendum:
69 is practically where I stand right now, except I townread myself (role pm).
13. In
74, Ryu expresses an FOS (fingers of suspicion; like a vote, but not one) on Yawning Angel) -
Any hopes of a Ryu townread at this point has completely vanished to be replaced by a decent scumread. First, in the post I referenced, I dislike the way it's worded. It seems rather contrived to me, and as UTL/Aero stated earlier, it does not feel like it comes from the heart per se but rather feels opportunistic/bussing in nature. This is compounded by the fact he simply leaves an FOS without any indication that he intends to vote Yawn. Classic scum technique is to throw suspicion on your partner yet not be willing to commit to their lynch (exception = bussing).
Another post I want to look at by Ryu is
72 which probably biased me to think negatively of 74. First of all, he mentions some kind of joke ith UTL (I didn't see it). He also mentions an attempt to fit in. Fitting in is what scum try to do (though I acknowledge that it is a common newbie mistake to assume that to be townread, you have to fit in. They then overfocus on fitting in instead of scumhunting & inevitably get lynched. Don't worry about fitting in per se but rather scumhunt & express your reads. People will pick up on your playstyle pretty quick so you have nothing to worry about). The last sentence of that paragraph makes no sense at all to me: "I'm trying to use my head but at the same time trying to sound organical." Lastly, we have the part about Yawn - Agrees with Yawn only to contradict himself 2 sentences later. Ridiculous! Could be newbie (though this is an SE slot isn't it?) though I'm leaning towards scum when I think about the possible motives behind the posts. -
Scum-Indicative
14.
I'm seeing town motivated posts from Summer, such as
80 and
88 -
Town-Indicative
15. UTL wants to better understand Ryu's playstyle in
94 -
I find this to be more town-motivated as scum *generally* would not make such an effort (unless it's a buddying attempt; kinda like bussing, but opposite) to work with a player. It would be easier for them to form a mislynch case against them, but that's largely my opinion. Just, whenever you make reads like this, don't forget this golden rule:
One size does NOT fit all.
-
Town-Indicative
16. Looking at KAAG's readlist in
98 -
Really like the stuff stated here. Few comments though. First, AtE, while a logically fallancy, is imo null indicative unless you have strong reason to believe otherwise. I have used it in my first two games here, both of which I was town in. I prob. used it some in Newbie 1682 too. In general though, town will prob. seem more authentic in their AtE, but unless you're good at reading the difference, I'd say leave it as null unless that's practically the only thing they've done the entire game. Same goes for defending oneself. The other thing I wanted say is that the style KAAG has used is I believe originated from Ranger (the bracket stuff). Personally, I find it too compact and doesn't express my thoughts (you'll see mine later, but do note that it is color coded and for best results, use the MafBlack theme) but like KAAG said, that's your own choice & the style doesn't matter quite as much as long as the content is there and reasonable. -
Town-Indicative
17.
This game looks to be a fun one! Already at 17 & I'm not finished reading page 5 yet. I really like the effort that is going into a lot of these posts; hope this continues!
18. Mhsmith has some problems with UTL's responses to the RQS questions. -
Yeah, I kinda thought about that 1st point for a sec, but ultimately concluded that was simply poor reasoning rathe than scum trying to help themselves. Not the best answer imo, but I can understand a town PoV behind it. As to the other part, I'm kinda bad about doing that when I have no solid opinions about who's scum. Surprisingly, in my first two games here, 1 of the scum was a lurker, so scum do have a habit of lurking more often. Tbh, lurking is again a meta thing & while your point def. holds true about lurkers being easy lynches, town have some incentive into prodding lurkers just as scum do. (In town's case : Not participating = Cannot form read; this lack of info really hurts town imo). Overall, pretty nice conclusions, so I'll start with a townread of your slot. -
Town-Indicative
19. Aero addresses a few points Hexboy had made in Aero's
112 -
I agree with your second part of your explanation (reason why I mention it specifically cuz I didn't understand what Hexboy was saying) and the majority of the post. The only part I have a real problem with is the last part of the post. I dislike how Aero claims Hexboy is being selective for 2 reasons 1) He just replaced in at that point and 2) He was skimming & his computer was low battery. -
Null-Indicative
20.
116 - @Summer - Defending oneself can be seen as a scummy action, as in reaction tests, but my general feeling is it all goes back to that player's meta. Idk Aero's meta, but the way Aero is trying to help town & scumhunt makes me kinda townread him despite the few occasions where he becomes overly defensive. Also, defensiveness def. can come from town, don't let anyone tell you town don't overreact or react poorly to situations. (I got lynched just for that by *idiot* town led by a Werewolf in Micro 590..... Only time I had a PR too.....) -
Null-Town Indicative
21.
119 - KAAG points that TvT occurs all the time. -
Just wanted to say that imho, 90% of all in-thread fights are TvT. -
Null-Indicative
22.
Ah, I love the quote of
121 that UTL quotes in
123. You can be wrong, you will be wrong (at times), and you can still be town despite that. Here, what I think is Motives speak louder than words. If the player seems town-motivated, I give townread and vice-versa.
23.
I'm gonna say this now and you better listen:
Do not use plain spoiler tags (
in Mafia games.
1) Some mods consider it as hidden text (I most certainly will) 2) Some people on mobile devices like an Ipad cannot read the blackout text 3) Spoiler= is imo much better and should be used 100% of the time. This is in reference to Aata's
133.
24.
I really, REALLY like how mhsmith is trying to get town to be proactive and accountable. I doubt I'll meet that explanation - I'll prob. get somewhat lazy after this post - but this rings town to me. The more scumhunting, participation, and scrutiny occurs, the harder it will be for scum to blend in & get away with stuff. So yes, could be a scum tactic but more likely town-motivated. -
Town-Indicative
25. Mhsmith has an interesting case against UTL in
142 -
Personally didn't see it that way, but I'll keep that in mind. My meta with scum UTL suggests that scum UTL would be way less active though. - [b}Null-Town-Indicatove[/b]
26.
I agree with the conclusions KAAG came to in
146 -
Null-Indicative
27. KAAG in
153 mentioned that scum can sometimes detract from the game by discussing mechanics instead of the game itself -
Hmmm... Very interesting point, albeit I think I've gone on the theory side quite a bit in this post. Nonetheless, I am going to keep a close eye on mhsmith as mhsmith has done quite a lot of game theory and mechanics posts so far. Still it's an overall townread for mhsmith as mhsmith has presented a scum case for UTL and seems to be scumhunting. -
Null-Indicative (KAAG); Null-Scum Indicative (mhsmith)
28. In
175, Yawn writes "if the balance of my strong player reads are in favour." He later writes in
177, "I mean I'm happy to vote if the balance of my town reads are in favor." -
The clarification is rather vague and makes no sense to me. Skimming through, I see that the "English" translation of what you are saying is in
186 - You have to be clear in what yiu say. It has to be readable for other players and cannot be ambiguous. While occasional typos may alter meanings significantly, you should strive to avoid such. When someone asks you to clarify, restating what you just said verbatim prob. isn't going to help: in fact, clarification is generally requested when someone doesn't understand someone, not because of other reasons. Overall, I'm starting to like Yawn's posts a bit better, but for the parts I highlighted here, it's simply -
Null-Indicative
29. Mhsmith expresses a decent townread of Ryu in
202 (by decent, I mean not weak but not strong) -
I kinda dislike your read here. It reads fairly well to me as towards the town direction, but in terms of it being your top read, I disagree. Ryu hasn't really done anything noteworthy and he definitely has not earned himself a townread. People always get focused on one specific person who really sticks out, in this case it was mainly Ryu with a side of Yawning. So, in other words, I think you are expressing a strong townread on Ryu for non-alignment reasons & I feel that Ryu most certainly shouldn't be your top townread at this point. This is a pre-flip association, but this reads as "Ryu & I are scum. Ryu is under heavy suspicion and has decided to kinda lurk to avoid more unwanted attn. Since Ryu has cast a lot of wifom, I will be able to call the cases on him weak & use this to support an otherwise unusually strong townread on this slot." You said stuff about holding people accountable; I agree and feel you are not holding Ryu accountable for his actions. -
Scum-Indicative
30. Mhsmith is pushing meta arguments against UTL -
First of all, I take this as null for mhsmih. But one thing that I want to initially address, as I think I'm starting to see evidence of this happening forming, is that tunneling aka conf bias is bad for town. Mhsmith seems to be too keen on scum UTL despite her pretty decent defense. The use of meta exacerbate the extent of mhsmith's focus on UTL. Tunneling isn't alignment indicative in most cases, but that doesn't mean it hurts town. Always keep in mind that a player can be town unless the mod specifically tells you otherwise.
Now, as I have recently played a newbie with UTL (who was town cop), I would say that UTL has seemed to take a bit more under-the-radar stance as she did in Mini 1755 (where she was scum). But, I am of the suspicion that D1 is rather weak for her and she truly cannot keep up, so overall, I'm still reading that null. I see a willingness to help which means a good bit to me. -
Null-Indicative
31.
232 - KAAG finally explains something that has been bothering me for a bit but I didn't note -
This is the PRIME example of where ambiguity can be very confusing. What KAAG originally wrote sounded like a contradiction s mhsmith pointed out: it sounded as if KAAG had found the overall motivations to be *at*least town-motivated. This was not what KAAG was saying, but only now does it make sense: What KAAG meant was HBG's motivation for his post was the least towniest; aka the scummiest. -
Null-Scum-Indicative
- for not realizing the ambiguity of the post despite being asked 5+ times.
32. Summer provides a readlist in
234 -
Looks authentic to me, but one thing I find weird is you included UTL twice with two opposite reads of her. Can I ask why that was the case? I have a feeling you were trying to emphasize a point when doing so rather than trying to manipulate/WIFOM us. -
Town Indicative
33.
Food for thought: I think that we can agree that lurking, in general, keeps you out of people's sight. But, could the opposite be true: could posting too much be a tactic to avoid attention. If you post a lot, people are more likely to skim you, and what few mistakes you do make make go unnoticed. Aka, lots of posting can act as a distraction. Keep this in mind, specifically @Mhsmith.
34. Mhsmith continues to push case against KAAG in
249 -
Which is it: scum trying to push a mislynch or town guilty of confirmation bias? It is quite evident to me though that you still don't understand what KAAG said, which reads a bit.... off to me as KAAG was pretty clear in his latest clarification on that. Your case also seems to revolve around that point, which makes it weak to me. -
Scum-Indicative
35.
I think I'm gonna conclude the latter, cuz of
250. I would say a miracle just happened; I was starting to develop quite a scumread of mhsmith, but mhsmith just totally flipped it. The reaction seems extremely authentic & mhsmith's reactions & interactions with KAAG on this new page are solidifying my town read of KAAG.
36.
269 by Summer -
Reminds of a few situations I've been in here. I don't have any scum meta yet, but really reads to me as newbie confusion. -
Town-Indicative
37.
280 by UTL questions a lot of things Summer has recently done -
All of the points mentioned really read as newbtown. Also, about the pinging of one's radar -- I would take that as a scumread too. -
Null-Indicative
38.UTL's now stuck in a Summer tunnel -
I really, REALLY hope you reconsider. Remember how we dealt with MeNow in our last game together; I would prefer not to see something similar happen to Summer. A lot of the things you've pointed out to me read as newbie: OMGUS, inadvertent contrdicting oneself, general confusion & uncertainty about what to do, etc. I'd advise you back away from your tunnel & reconsider.(/i]
39. In response to UTL's
293 -
I will try. I think I will be a bit more... active & useful here as this one is a bit more interesting.
