Mini Normal 1775 END!

[Sakura Hana]

Apparently for someone who says:

I'm a gut player,

You seem to not understand what's having "a bad feeling" when everyone suddenly jumps into your wagon, specially when you picture if the player you're lynching is scum, scum would do SOMETHING to defend them. I take it you were lying about your gut reads too.

[mhsmith0]

Almost50:
1) Why did you town read ( 74 ) Sakura's vote pull? Most people who AI-read that moment (one way or the other) gave actual reasons. You just dumped a read on the table and walked away.

2) You've hopped on bandwagons for "pressure", and in neither time was there any actual scum reading involved. 70 explicitly stated that you were NOT scum-reading knight for his defensiveness... but you voted him anyway.
And 162 was hopping on a bandwagon as a vote whip (defined on my other site as "

The behaviour of voting for a player to encourage them to answer a question, participate, or otherwise engage in debate."

), as opposed to expressing any kind of genuine scum read.

Why would anyone feel much "pressure" if there are non-genuine votes dumped on them and only at L-2? Especially early in D1 on a board that isn't crawling with potentially hammer-happy newbies?

PS Extra demerits for ANOTHER vote whip (or empty "pressure" vote) in 82, this time on Sayaka.

3) You were scum reading boon in 211... what's your theory here? That read seems lazy to me. 214, disliking

I don't have reasons for doing anything. I'm waiting for stuff to happen.

might be a case... but aren't you basically doing the same thing? Other than almost randomly hopping between wagons, I read your ISO and see really not much of any substance or effort.

4)

Or maybe it's because I don't like naked voted to begin with

5) Do you see the above list? Do you feel pressured? Even though you're not even at L-2? Almost like you don't NEED a large wagon to create pressure and demand accountability? If so, hopefully you see why I'm so unimpressed by your "let's just create substance-less wagons for 'pressure'" position. Now answer my questions, and then put enough actual effort into scum hunting to make me rethink my scum read on you.

PS @lowell: remember 84? Is it fair for me to interpret you as "let me put together a lazy, half-assed case on some newbie to look like I'm helping"? Because that sure seems scummy to me. I'm still happy sitting on the A50 wagon but I find myself really disliking your contributions.

[Lowell]

@lowell: Here's one from me. Was your vote on me serious or just joke/reaction testing? That's an easy question with an easy answer.

Are you kidding? It's page 14. My vote is legit. Your playstyle is a put-on and you're scum.

[mhsmith0]

@lowell: Let me see if I have your case right.

1) Your tone is affected.

2) You're sensitive about pushing people to L-2.

3) 1 and 2 are true, therefore you're scum.

Is that it? Is there more? That seems like a lazy/junk case even if both 1 and 2 are true (which I guess I might as well argue against since you say you're taking it seriously).

[mhsmith0]

PS For #1, please point me to the SPECIFIC posts where you think my tone is affected. I'm not going to re-analyze my own posts for whatever you think are tone-tells. Put in actual effort here.

[mhsmith0]

1) Was hoping for a lowell clarification, but whatever.
This is my third mafia game, and my first time doing RVS (my first game was on a different site with oddball mechanics in games, and icebreaking posts that typically focus on that instead of RVS, and my second game is on this site [ongoing], and I subbed in post RVS). My posts in that phase (or about that phase) reflect a lack of confidence in my understanding of standard RVS theory and practice. I have no idea why it makes sense to read much into that. Similarly, it's my first mini normal here, so that's where 154 came from. Because I DON'T know all the rules, and it's entirely possible I didn't know something important.

Other than that, I guess you're looking at 138? If so, that was a specific question to Madonna to get a clarification on her position, since reading the knight wagon was her main contribution to date. I don't see this tone as affected becuase I'm trying to be clear and explicit about what SHE was thinking.

2) Regarding L-2: I showed "sensitivity" to L-2 at 73 and 241. In both of those, if you bothered to read them, I showed sensitivity to a SUBSTANCE-LESS rush to L-2. Do you see the difference? Do you see how my position depends on the SUBSTANCE of that L-2 vote? And how in both cases A50's L-2 vote read empty to me? And if you do see this, do you see why I think your argument here (that I'm just being sensitive to L-2) is lazy at best, reductionist and manipulative at worst?

PS: I read your vote at 276 as a possible joke/reaction test because it was lazy, empty, and shitty. I did you the courtesy of assuming you were making the vote for some kind of "reaction test against the newbie" reason. Because your vote and stated reasons were so bad that I couldn't imagine you were actually being serious. Well, that and the fact that I wanted to remove your potential "oh I was just reaction testing" defense/back-out BEFORE engaging with your case.

PPS

This guy needs some votes

Maybe some of the votes that are currently sitting on you, perhaps?

PPPS Impress me with your response or I'm switching my vote. You and A50 are my top two scum reads right now, and I'm comfortable with lynching you first. I'll give you the courtesy of getting one free shot at a response before I push you to L-1. If I don't hear back in a couple of hours, that's where my vote is going.

PPPPS Having fun yet?

[Almost50]

Now answer my questions, and then put enough actual effort into scum hunting to make me rethink my scum read on you.

Or I can simply sit back & enjoy being scum read by you, boon & tex.

[chilledtea]

VOTE: mhsmith

Smith is scum. Lowell might be town.

[Almost50]

This is my third mafia game,

Oh. shoot. OK.. disregard my previous response. I will try to get back to you re: your questions. SORRY.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith

Smith is scum. Lowell might be town.

Smith is scum because ____?

Lowell might be town because ____?

I'm especially curious about the second. You were scum reading Lowell consistently in your posts, but now that the wagon looked like it was nearing L-1 and turning really serious you wanted out and are now town reading Lowell. You give no reason for this, just a flat stated town read (cushioned by a "might" modifier). This just SCREAMS tactical voting. Justify your vote and your reads. Yes, I know. Actual effort and transparency. It's a drag but unfortunately it's what the town needs to see in order to actually evaluate you.

[Almost50]

Why did you town read ( 74 ) Sakura's vote pull?

Her reaction is typically town motivated. Yes, it could be fake, but I didn't think so. A town player is never too confident in their reads early into D1, and would be worried they made a mistake no matter how strong they felt about the targeted opponent. No town player would want a wagon to build up so fast on their target that early and without much effort from them (the voter) done to argue and convince others. It does look like scum and/or noobs jumped up the wagon.

[chilledtea]

VOTE: mhsmith

Smith is scum. Lowell might be town.

Smith is scum because ____?

Lowell might be town because ____?

I'm especially curious about the second. You were scum reading Lowell consistently in your posts, but now that the wagon looked like it was nearing L-1 and turning really serious you wanted out and are now town reading Lowell. You give no reason for this, just a flat stated town read (cushioned by a "might" modifier). This just SCREAMS tactical voting. Justify your vote and your reads. Yes, I know. Actual effort and transparency. It's a drag but unfortunately it's what the town needs to see in order to actually evaluate you.

Your post. That is the reason.

The nonsensical reasons you have given make me feel that you don't understand the context under which certain actions took place in this game. It almost felt like you are trying to get reasons for your scum read by going through the thread rather than stating your actual feelings.
Lowell could be town because he said the same thing about you.

[mhsmith0]

PS @ chilledtea:
143 had you town reading me. Please clarify to the board what your original town read of me was based on, and what changed your mind to go from town read to scum read. You've flagrantly flipped reads on two players (lowell and me), without the slightest bit of justification.

[mhsmith0]

The nonsensical reasons you have given make me feel that you don't understand the context under which certain actions took place in this game. It almost felt like you are trying to get reasons for your scum read by going through the thread rather than stating your actual feelings.
Lowell could be town because he said the same thing about you.

1) "The nonsensical reasons". WHICH "nonsensical reasons"? And why are they nonsense?

2) "You are trying to get reasons for your scum read by going through the thread rather than stating your actual feelings." You mean like looking for evidence and holding people accountable for what they say, and being clear on WHY I am reading people as scum, instead of just hand-waving "oh my gut says town", "my gut says scum". How in that world is THAT scum-indicative?

Seriously, why not just go all out and say "MHS is trying to scum hunt, therefore he must be scum"? Or do you think I'm fake scum hunting? And if the latter, where is the EVIDENCE for me fake scum hunting? Note that "my gut says you're fake scum hunting" is NOT something I consider an acceptable answer.

3) Lowell could be town because he agrees with your position? Seriously, that's it? What about all the stuff you scum read him for before?

[Sakura Hana]

This game...

[knightmare]

Chilled I need you to explain that better.

Lowell is scum reading Smith for making statements that show uncertainty. Him pulling quotes from his own ISO and explaining them further is constructive behavior imo. I have no idea why you would scum read him for that. I have zero interest in lynching Smith.

[Almost50]

You've hopped on bandwagons for "pressure"

This is not accurate. I voted knight for two reasons (both searching for reactions). The first is to see who would leave the wagon & why, and who might push further to L-1 and why.

Just before me both boon & Sayaka had jumped the wagon for weak reasoning to my liking. Soon after I jumped the wagon (while making it obvious I wasn't scum reading knight) Sakura left immediately, which IS the natural thing to do. She earned herself town points.

Sayaka though was still suspicious so I wanted her back to talk about an RVS turned into a serious vote over a weak reason so early into the game.

At the same time lowell had joined right after Sakura left the wagon (if I remember correctly), so he also became suspicious.

Suspicious players need to be sorted first. My first suspect was Sakura herself, but look how she turns to be one of my top town reads now.

Sayana's wagon didn't get much recognition, so lowell could've been dealt with first. It didn't really matter which of them I sorted first.

So, knight was in search for reactions from others (not knight) while both Sayaka & Lowell were for pressure based on genuine scum leans.

[Sakura Hana]

I'm having a hard time figuring out what most people are thinking, I find most of the scumreads nonsensical and is making me struggle to see who's genuine and who isn't, it doesnt help that some of those people dont even bother as much as of explaining why their reads change, remember it's very easy to fake reads and read changes, but hard to substantiate them with worthwhile evidence (a.k.a post quotes from the thread like... hello, what i've been saying all this time). The only person here that i've seen try to achieve some sort of TEAMWORK is Almost50, and for trying to achieve such TEAMWORK he's being SCUMREAD, like what the fuck? I don't even... while all my mafia life i've seen ppl that are stubborn and refuse to cooperate, i have never seen ppl that are actually trying to achieve town unity be scumread for... trying to achieve town unity. Like i dont even...

[chilledtea]

The nonsensical reasons you have given make me feel that you don't understand the context under which certain actions took place in this game. It almost felt like you are trying to get reasons for your scum read by going through the thread rather than stating your actual feelings.
Lowell could be town because he said the same thing about you.

1) "The nonsensical reasons". WHICH "nonsensical reasons"? And why are they nonsense?

2) "You are trying to get reasons for your scum read by going through the thread rather than stating your actual feelings." You mean like looking for evidence and holding people accountable for what they say, and being clear on WHY I am reading people as scum, instead of just hand-waving "oh my gut says town", "my gut says scum". How in that world is THAT scum-indicative?

Seriously, why not just go all out and say "MHS is trying to scum hunt, therefore he must be scum"? Or do you think I'm fake scum hunting? And if the latter, where is the EVIDENCE for me fake scum hunting? Note that "my gut says you're fake scum hunting" is NOT something I consider an acceptable answer.

3) Lowell could be town because he agrees with your position? Seriously, that's it? What about all the stuff you scum read him for before?

They are nonsense because they fail to take context into consideration. Seems like you saw a nice opportunity to jump on the almost50 wagon and decided to find "scummy" things.

For eg, You think vote whipping someone is a scum tell. It is 100% something a townie would consider doing if he thinks the game requires more content from said person.

When almost voted sayaka, in fact before that I voted Sayaka as well. And that was a naked vote registered to make a point.

As far as Lowell is concerned, he had like little reason to consider Knight super scum like he did. So I was suspicious. It is still possible he is scum. My read on you has changed. Does it surprise you that people can have change of read on the basis of what you say or don't say?

[Almost50]

Why would anyone feel much "pressure" if there are non-genuine votes dumped on them and only at L-2? Especially early in D1 on a board that isn't crawling with potentially hammer-happy newbies?

Because being close to the lynch is always irritating and people tend to lose composure is situations like these. It is when you lose your act and bring out the real you that you become easier to read.

And, btw.. there's no such thing as pressure w/o a vote. You can talk all you want, but unless you back it up with a vote I will probably skim and ignore your case. (I even almost did WITH your vote on me, except when you reminded me you're new I felt the need to explain it to you bc I was in your shoes not too long ago).

[Sakura Hana]

UNVOTE:
I need to do a reset

[Almost50]

Do you see the above list? Do you feel pressured?

Yes, and NO. I do NOT feel any pressure bc:

1- I'm at L-4. How's having less than half of the votes required for a lynch considered "pressure"??

2- (And this is the most important factor): I have not said or done a single thing that I didn't believe in. Even if I do get to L-1 I'm not going to crack or flail, bc I know my alignment and I know what I've said and done and why I did/say them. In other words, you won't catch me contradicting myself or back tracking.

[Almost50]

Now answer my questions, and then put enough actual effort into scum hunting to make me rethink my scum read on you.

As for the first part; I did. If I've missed something feel free to bring it up again.

As for the effort, I AM doing the best I can. You might not see it, granted. Everybody plays differently, and just bc you don't notice/understand what I'm doing doesn't mean I'm not doing it .. and for a purpose.

[chilledtea]

Actually, I take that back. Maybe smith isn't scum. Only because of his post answering Lowell.

But his case on almost is really bad. Tunnelling bad.

VOTE: Lowell

[mhsmith0]

@A50: wrt 341 Thank you. My immediate reaction is that I think that makes sense, but I need to let that rumble around my head for a while. Ditto your other responses.

@Sakura: My intuition is that "trying to achieve town unity" is null, not town. I think there's a lot of room for scum to hide behind "town unity" since they have to make fewer decisions, and can potentially fake their way into that "town unity" group. And I'd read A50's efforts along those lines as fake. I owe him a re-read given his responses.
PS If you think my theory here on "town unity" efforts being null is bunk, please let me know why. I've put effort into learning theory, but it's entirely possible I've missed something important.

@chilled: Sigh...
1) I still don't see the "nonsense" you alluded to earlier. "They are nonsense" is restating your assertion, not providing support or evidence. Try harder.

2) Vote whipping by itself isn't what I scum read him for. It's about the context. In this case, my context was that I was reading A50 as consistently presenting empty votes to the group. Seriously, this is spelled out in 326. You're being reductionist by accusing me of scum-reading A50 just for vote whipping. Try harder. Tell me what else you think is nonsense.

3) It's not surprising that people can change their reads of me. It IS surprising that someone would drastically change their read of me without spelling out why. Seriously, here's how I'm currently reading your progression:

332 I'm bailing on the lowell wagon and scum reading MHS because reasons
336 I'm scum reading MHS because he demands that I spell out my reasons. Also, his reasons are nonsense failing to understand context.
343 Again, it's nonsense because it doesn't understand context. Okay fine, here's one example.

And in fact I'd say that your accusation of my voting A50 for vote whipping is a GREAT example of something that's [post=nonsense because they fail to take context into consideration]nonsense because they fail to take context into consideration[/post]. Literally, the context was spelled out in that post. I was explicit on my reasoning. You might DISAGREE on my reasons, but if you do, be explicit on that.

4) You've said that multiple things I've done are "nonsense". Your example is totally unconvincing. Since you've apparently identified mulitple such things, you owe me and the board the rest of them.

/ninja'd: so now you un-vote me for something that came out before your lazy vote on me to boot
But even better, you're happy to be back on the Lowell wagon! Town lean for him retracted? Dare you provide us with your reasons why?