Open 624 Fire and Ice - Fire Mafia Wins

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

snowman=snow=ice=ice mafia
confirmed scum.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

snowman=snow=ice=ice mafia
confirmed scum.

This post is bad too tbh, for the exact same reasons.
Question to both of you: do you think these things are actually relevant? Who else is scum?

This is taking RVS votes way, way, way too seriously.
Who else is scum? we're not declaring anyone scum we're voting people for the lols.
Shinobi entrance is wtf.

VOTE: Shinobi

[Viva La Gloria]

It's not about whether it's constructive or not.
It's about the fact that it's standard play and it's absolutely bizarre of you to come in calling people out for standard behaviour.
I don't think you do this every game, either.

[Viva La Gloria]

Shinobi, I know everything about you.
I know that you live in North Carolina and are a male.
I know that you're 24 years old.
I know that you're a martial arts instructor.
I know that you're interested in various forms of martial arts, mafia, Mortal Kombat, and video editing.
I certainly know your history of not calling people out for RVSing every game.

[Viva La Gloria]

Here's just one example of you RVSing in a very standard fashion.

VOTE: brantz
The spelling of that character is completely wrong.

[Viva La Gloria]

...And?

RVSing is normal.
You participate in RVS normally and don't have an established history of attacking it.

You called people out on the first page for doing RVS votes and asked them who their legitimate scumreads are, like they should have them. That's absolute nonsense.

[Viva La Gloria]

Awkward and bizarre behaviour is scum indicative because you're uncomfortable playing scum and make weird plays trying too hard to look like you're scumhunting in pursuit of trying to look towny.
I have context; I've read a bunch of your games' RVSes. This is not normal at all.

[Viva La Gloria]

This whole page is dumb.

VOTE: Viva

Sketchy as fuck, considering that I have a strong case here.

[Viva La Gloria]

It's patently bizarre to ask someone who else is scum when only 6 people have posted and those votes were RVS votes with no additional content nor anything particularly notably scummy or towny in any of them. I called Shinobi out on that behaviour. Why are you voting me, Aristophanes?

[Viva La Gloria]

I made

both

of those arguments.
And how is the strength of my argument linked to my alignment?

[Viva La Gloria]

Most to least scummy?

Why are you townreading Shin exactly?

[Viva La Gloria]

Well, your reads are fairly awful then.

Vote Shinobi at any rate since he's your second best scumread? At least that placement was okay.

[Viva La Gloria]

A Shinobi wagon is a place that you want to be.

Your vote will help you get there.

[Viva La Gloria]

I find it weird how Shinobi comes in with an RVS vote, followed by bashing everyone's RVS votes, followed by another RVS vote.
I can understand trying to get out of RVS early, but that wasn't what he was doing. But I think it would be unusual for scum to call attention to themselves that early.
I also find it weird how Viva meta'd Shinobi right away and spit back his profile information. I think this is more likely to be scum than Shinobi, seeing as it's an early push for a reason that seems NAI to me.

So you agree that Shinobi's entrance was weird.
You think that my making the effort to meta him to discover whether said opening is scummy though?
Plus, why would an early push for ANY reason be scummy? And how is Shinobi's hypocritical and bizarre calling people out for rvsing and asking for scumreads on the first page of the game not alignment indicative? That's bologna.

[Viva La Gloria]

Why are you assuming that scum would only do scummy things intentionally?
Scum are not perfect town players. Scum screw up sometimes and do things that don't make sense.
Calling people out for RVSing on the first page and asking for scumreads when half the game has posted is an incredibly bizarre thing to do.
THE BEST EXPLANATION FOR IT IS THAT HE IS SCUM WHO IS NOT COMFORTABLE PRETENDING TO BE TOWN.
Why are you trying too hard to defend clearly scummy behaviour from Shinobi?

[Viva La Gloria]

SS.
Shinobi asked me what my other scum reads when half the game hadn't posted and what had been said was all RVS.
How ELSE do I interpret it?

So obviously, if he wanted to act normally, he could have.

Why couldn't I be right and he could have slipped up and made a poor play while trying too hard to look town?
Everyone's played well as scum before. Why can't any scummy thing by Shinobi be written off as "oh obviously if he wanted to act towny he could have"?
Why is it not likely that Shinobi wanted to present himself as trying hard to scumhunt before it was an appropriate reaction to the game state?
If you're saying that that was a reaction test, what reactions was Shinobi looking for? Why hasn't he followed up on it?

[Viva La Gloria]

SS.
Shinobi asked me what my other scum reads when half the game hadn't posted and what had been said was all RVS.
How ELSE do I interpret it?

So obviously, if he wanted to act normally, he could have.

Why couldn't I be right and he could have slipped up and made a poor play while trying too hard to look town?
Everyone's played well as scum before. Why can't any scummy thing by Shinobi be written off as "oh obviously if he wanted to act towny he could have"?
Why is it not likely that Shinobi wanted to present himself as trying hard to scumhunt before it was an appropriate reaction to the game state?
If you're saying that that was a reaction test, what reactions was Shinobi looking for? Why hasn't he followed up on it?

I don't know why he did it. You don't know why he did it. You may be right, but you DON'T KNOW. Stop acting like you do.
And stop misrepresenting me. I didn't say that he always knows how to look town, but that he knows how to look town in RVS.
And by the way, the one trying to present himself as trying hard to scumhunt before it's an appropriate reaction to the game state is you, not him.

I know how to look town in RVS, but if I screwed up in RVS it would still be a screw up.
I've seen plenty of experienced people do stupid stuff in RVS that nearly confirmed them, or quickhammer wagons in obvious wagons as scum, or jump on wagons in awful ways that get them lynches.
If you consistently write such things off as "OH THEY KNOW BETTER" when occam's razor says the screw up is scum, then you're not going to get there anymore.
I didn't claim to KNOW FOR A FACT Shinobi's scum. I said he's probably scum, and I'm pressuring him to make him respond in a way that would make his alignment clearer.
You are chainsaw defending him for no good reason; I'm not getting the dude speedlynched, I'm putting him under pressure.
If, as you claim, you don't specifically think that Shinobi is town, then you should be perfectly happy with me pushing ANY wagon to get the game moving.
And even if you did think he's town, well, town wagons still give info!

[Viva La Gloria]

Oh lol there's two SS's.
Aristo, do you think Viva is scum? Or do you just want to pressure him?

Why do you care?
You want me wagoned you have a vote. Why are you looking the gift horse in the mouth?

I don't think that logic was necessarily scum logic, but it was bad, so I'm okay with this.

You keep this up you're consenting to being autolynched when Shinobi flips scum.

[Viva La Gloria]

Yeah, Masquerade's response was pretty awful.
But I'm still pretty damn sure Shinobi is scum.
You guys can be different scumteams mmk?

VOTE: Masquerade

[Viva La Gloria]

Nah fk it protest vote.
VOTE: Shinobi
This is still scum.

[Viva La Gloria]

Signature bets are banned, correct?
Otherwise I'd be so on.

[Viva La Gloria]

You colossally slipped up on page 1 and the rest of your play has been an incredibly forced attempt to look like a good boy scumhunter.
Where do you think you get off asking people what their 'other townreads' are and criticizing RVS votes on the first page?
Riddle me this batman.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Masquerade

Shinobi will be useful regardless of alignment I feel, and is highly likely to be crosskilled if he's scum.
I'd be seriously mad if he is left alive to LyLo but I still like this wagon and am good following it.

[Viva La Gloria]

Actually I'm more interested in this I think.

VOTE: Cobalting

[Viva La Gloria]

Ranger's reads lists are utterly unexplained and strike me the wrong way.
Why don't you explain why you're thinking what you're saying?

[Viva La Gloria]

Okay I really don't like Viva right now. I already explained a few of the reasons but there are even more now: calling Shinobi's page one play a slip, which is a great way to push a bad lynch without much evidence; thinking about NK's and LYLO on day 1; and moving his vote around without good reasons.

I didn't call it a slip, I called it a horrendous slip up. Two very different things!
I'm thinking about NKs and LyLo because I still think that Shinobi is scum but he's actively scumhunting so he can be an asset fighting the other team for now until we lynch him or he gets crosskilled later. And if he's town, well, saves a mislynch, but I doubt that at this point.
Same reason for my vote transitions; I've been going back and forth on whether or not I consider Shinobi a priority lynch and then Masq->Cobalt was brought about by how I feel about Ranger's read lists; they basically put all the players who've been put into the crossfire as likely to flip scum.

For what it's worth, I don't like you much either.

[Viva La Gloria]

A slip up is a screw up or a blunder or a misplay; I think Shinobi misplayed on page 1 because he felt pressured as scum to try to look like he was scumhunting hard.
A slip is revealing some sort of secret that confirms alignment.

Shinobi did the former, not the latter.

[Viva La Gloria]

No, they're not.

sorry.

[Viva La Gloria]

For everyone who missed my explanation of my scumread on Shinobi please reread here:

It's not the way he entered but how he dealt with the questions that he got about it. To me it seems more like he wanted to look useful with his questions, rather than reaction testing. Trying to look town by getting us out ofo RVS asap. When he got called out on that his responses were awkward imo.

Avoid being suspected by looking useful getting us out of RVS quickly. I'm saying Shinobi wanted to gain some towncred trying to launch us out of RVS. When he got questioned about them instead of backed up, he panicked and got awkward.

I sometimes choose my words a little poorly, but what I was saying is that by gaining towncred of getting us out of RVS he would have (most likely) avoided suspicion at least for this phase.

I still do agree and I think that you're probably town and Shinobi scum, but I feel like Shinobi can be left alive for a while because he's actively participating in scumhunting.
My opinion is that correct play in multiball is to go for the players who are both likely to be scum and unlikely to be cross killed; Shinobi doesn't exactly fit what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.
I think Cobalting needs to be forced to explain their reads lists right now.

[Viva La Gloria]

I think Cobalting needs to be forced to explain their reads lists right now.

Let's be honest that was definitely a reactions list.

I don't understand what this means.

[Viva La Gloria]

Sure, maybe, but I want explanation because it feels like she just threw scumreads on the people under the most pressure and called it a day.

[Viva La Gloria]

My only real scumlean is viva; possibly cobalting as well. Still thinking about Shinobi and droog, and waiting on ika and BEF.

Explain why I'm a scumlean.

[Viva La Gloria]

testing a theory
VOTE: viva

Reasons?

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

Currently the worst vote on me, but further response from the other voters may change this.

[Viva La Gloria]

Shinobi, you didn't vote me despite the fact that I was pushing on you.

Why?

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Cobalting

Ranger's reads list still needs to be explained actually.
I don't trust the votes on me at all though, given that little has been said by anyone besides SS to explain a vote on me and his case is awful.
If you're scumreading me, explain why.

[Viva La Gloria]

There's a plethora of odd, unexplained scumreads on me that cropped up when I started to look like a likely lynch.
People on my wagon and throwing out easy scumreads need to be pressured because I'm positive that there's scum on my wagon.
I swapped back over to Cobalting because I think forcing Ranger to explain their readslists is a higher priority than scumhunting my wagon at the moment.

especially since he's saying "only scum do weird stuff early" when he does weird things like looking up and posting Shinobi's profile. He's scum by his own logic.

that was a joke.
Calling on everyone to provide secondary scumreads when half the game hasn't posted is not a joke.
Maybe it was just an awkward move to try to push the game out of rvs, but at the very least your stance that it could not possibly be a scum misstep is untenable.

[Viva La Gloria]

UNVOTE:

im done with my little experiment
ill explain in a bit

if you don't explain this I'm autolynching you.

[Viva La Gloria]

Supreme Overlord is still bugging the shit out of me and the Ika vote is frankly terrible.
But Ranger is being useless and anti-town as hell by refusing to explain her reads.
I'd like to switch but I also think we should seriously threaten to lynch Ranger if she continues to refuse to elaborate so that she gets shit done.

[Viva La Gloria]

Post deleted. Quote was from another game.

[Viva La Gloria]

Please can we do like SO or Cobalting?
I'm willing to vote either of them over Shinobi today.
I'm getting really bad feelings about this wagon and think that Shinobi's probably town now.
His frustration seems genuine, the way he reacted to me pressuring him felt really genuine, he never tried to omgus me when I looked like a doable lynch and I was deathtunneling him at the beginning of the day.
Please reconsider your votes.

[Viva La Gloria]

He's also right; besides me no one has really given reasons for the wagon and I feel like a lot of these people are just jumping on the bandwagon
Everyone currently voting Shinobi, especially the later 4 votes, really need to give much more of an explanation of why they're there.

[Viva La Gloria]

Why don't you explain why you're thinking what you're saying?

Why would I?

Why is this not lynched yet? Less game relevant info in their 12 posts than my 1.

@Mod: VC please. Also ika is due a prod

Prod acknowledged, haven't had as much time for this as I'd hoped.

VOTE: Shinobi

Vote belongs here for now.

Absolutely zero content which makes me think that they're trying to avoid being cross killed, calling people out for needing prods and not producing content while having 3 posts, and chain voting the two wagons that were both the biggest wagon at the time.

I'm iffy about voting this slot in particular because I have special concerns but at the very least we need to make it produce content.

VOTE: TheShadow

[Viva La Gloria]

I don't have any interest in a SW wagon at the moment.
Ranger head of Cobalting is really aggravating me but I'm not necessarily sure that she's scum. I'm still willing to lynch it though.
SO is still something I could do.
I think the player is frankly very unskilled but the SS slot is town probably.
No other strong reads right now.

[Viva La Gloria]

Can we get more The_Shadow votes?

I think it's better in multiball to lynch the inactive players than the heavy posters.

[Viva La Gloria]

Shinobi's probably not scum though?
And even if he is he's an awful day one lynch.
Vote someone who is trying to stay under the radar, like Shadow.

[Viva La Gloria]

This is pretty awful tbh.

Can we lynch Shadow tomorrow?

[Viva La Gloria]

Can you be persuaded to vote TheShadow with us?

[Viva La Gloria]

Still good with a Shadow lynch, don't really feel like posting anything else atm.

[Viva La Gloria]

463 was pretty okay actually.

If we want to swap wagons to say, Supreme Overlord or SS (who I'm scumreading now), I'm all for it.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'm mega tired so forgive any incoherency.

I don't think Shinobi is a good lynch. His reads list looks honest. One question, though: Shinobi, I'm literally the only person you left off your list. Why?
Actually, I don't think you've mentioned me at all. What the heck, man?

That's exactly what I needed from you Shinobi but you are wrong about ika. His play has changed a lot. I have a hydra with him. It's different now. I guarantee it.

Can you elaborate on this? You last said:

ika is someone I should of figured out by now and it troubles me he's null. He needs to interact with me personally instead of poke me with a stick to piss me off.

But since the ika wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere, I want to VOTE: SnarkySnowman. He's done zero scumhunting (which admittedly is odd in multi-faction where everyone can legitimately scumhunt, but I think doing none at all is scummy regardless of the game). He's exclusively given out townreads (for no reasons given), even though he apparently knows to ask for scumleans. I don't like his vehement opposition (but no real defence) of the Shinobi lynch, with no apparent desire to actually look at the reasons people had already given.

Were you hoping for a fast hammer and then if Shinobi flipped town the questioning his wagon would look good on you?

Basically this. Masq, do you want to hop onto Snarky? Though if now is the time to push on ika don't take my unvoting as discouragement.

This is incredibly scummy actually.
Why is he obsessed with the presence or absence of him in Shinobi's ISO unless he's scum?
Lurker lynch can wait, I think.

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

[Viva La Gloria]

Whatever. I'll settle for a Shadow lynch.

VOTE: Shadow

I'm tired.

[Viva La Gloria]

I still don't see what is scummier about Shadow and I'm afraid there is nothing. You just want to lynch a somewhat-scummy lurker rather than a scummier active player, when lurking is not indicative of alignment. We can't expect the scum to do our job for us and kill the people we want dead.

I'm in full agreement that I'd rather lynch, say, Supreme Overlord than Shadow.
But I'm perfectly fine with him as a compromise lynch and there's still a reasonable shot at him flipping scum, so if we're not going to get a good alternative then all aboard!

[Viva La Gloria]

I sincerely doubt we get anything better than a Shadow lynch at this point.

Let's just get it done.

[Viva La Gloria]

You, Cobalting, or Supreme Overlord. Preferably Cobalting, though.

Get any of these going and you have my vote.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

This should have been yesterday's lynch.

[Viva La Gloria]

SO's Ika vote seems kinda lazy.
Ika/SW thing is a little weird. Not sure how to react to it.

[Viva La Gloria]

@Ika
I'm not sure. I just think it's weird.
SO is an obvious scumfuck and the Cobalting kill proves it so bye.

[Viva La Gloria]

Silverwolf is pinging me!
In places I don't like to be pinged.

I don't think Ika will be too happy about this...

[Viva La Gloria]

I'm not really sure how to put my SO scumread into words.
The way he talks about scumhunting feels rote and distant like he's talking about his reads rather than actually having them, I don't like the way his reads flip to suit the way the gamestate goes, etc.
Like even if you look at his last post he gets bogged into a sort of IIOA; he's discussing the meta of how reads form instead of actually having them. Which is really scummy.
I don't like his response to pressure, either, nor the way that he asks questions and he doesn't really push off of them, they sort of just feel manufactured.
I'm fairly certain he'll flip scum at any rate.

[Viva La Gloria]

That was creepy as fuck, Ika!
I was actually going to lynch Silverwolf today but she's dead so I'm not sure.
I'll go do some partner hunting.

[Viva La Gloria]

I don't mean creepy like that I mean all these people getting murdered so descriptively is creepy as fuck.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like the associatives between SO and Shinobi are perfect for scumpartners but I really can't shake the feeling I've had all game that he's town.

Let's just lynch for Fire and I'll let the night actions handle him.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Firebringer

This is last Fire, I'm nearly 100% sure.

[Viva La Gloria]

Looking solely at interactions between SW and SO and living players, this is where I stand as far as partners are concerned. This doesn't incorporate individual reads which I am still working on.
Aristophanes:

Likely

Possible

Firebringer:

Likely

Unlikely

Masquerade:

Possible

Likely

Shinobi:

Unlikely

Unlikely

SnarkySnowman:

Possible

Likely

Viva La Gloria:

Unlikely

Likely

Why do you think that Fire (who replaced Aero btw) is not likely to be fire mafia?
I don't understand how you can possibly put firebringer in the same category as Shinobi here.
You need to do some heavy explaining of these reads.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Firebringer
Probably ice, not sure what Viva was thinking, interactions with SO are terrible.
I'd also probably be ok lynching masq or snarky.

@Mod: I will be away until Tuesday. I will probably have access but there's a chance I won't and so I'm declaring V/LA just in case.

I'll take a look at this tomorrow.
I think SW/Aeronaut's interactions were awful and that's the main reason I'm on FB.
You should take a look at them.

[Viva La Gloria]

Happy Valentines.

I'll flesh out my Firebringer case tomorrow.

[Viva La Gloria]

That last post was horrible. I could vote him.

I'm going to go through the associatives real quick.

[Viva La Gloria]

I've actually been starting to wonder if SW and Aero would really be so blatant.
They buddied each other pretty hard in thread and it was SW who called for Aero to replace out when he started lurking, which is odd, but I think that maybe it was too overt for them to be scumbuddies?
I think I might have been wrong about this one. Firebringer still makes sense somewhat for Ice I guess, but Aero replacing out on demand doesn't feel like scum reaction to a non-aligned player.
I'm going to go look at Masq again.

[Viva La Gloria]

So the Silverwolf kill was likely a deliberate attempt to cross kill, since she didn't have any clear scumreads besides Shinobi / Fire, which means that last Ice is probably someone who was scumreading her.
(And Shinobi/Fire fit in that category as well.)
I'm going to go through some ISOs.

[Viva La Gloria]

I was not referring to you, Shin.

I'm putting together a readslist right now.

[Viva La Gloria]

God multiball is fucking confusing.

[Viva La Gloria]

Alright.
So I think that it's pretty obvious that the Fire kill N2 was made to protect Silverwolf.
Cobalting is a little iffier to pinpoint because none of Ranger's scumreads were Fire scum and the only one that was correct was SO who was ice.
So we don't really get anything from NKA.

Aristophanes:
likely ice, extremely unlikely fire:
I think that Aristophanes is one of my top scum picks for Ice here and I'm questioning why a lot of people are townreading him. I absolutely hate the way he conducted himself day 1; I feel like in particular he's been doing way too much IIOA and way too little scumhunting. He spent an entire post picking apart why me 'vote jumping' was scummy and bad instead of actually scumhunting. His reads, especially on me, have basically followed crowd mentality; he was townreading me in the early day, moved to scumreading me when the pack did, and then started townreading me again when everyone else did again. I really don't think that he's fire though; when the SO wagon was getting steam he tried to derail it and said that we should be dealing with the Ika/SW situation instead. That just seems ridiculously unlikely to come from Fire scum given that Ika was virtually unlynchable and fairly universally townread. He makes a lot more sense as Ice; he did L-1 SO but the wagon was inevitable at that point and I could easily see him as a bussing scumbuddy who felt that he couldn't stop it.

Shinobi:
Possible ice, extremely unlikely fire:
So he was one of my big scumreads early because of his . I think he's fairly clearly not partnered with SW given that SW spent half the game trying to lynch him, and I don't think that a bus would be particularly likely to that extent in a multiball setup. He could absolutely be Ice;

SnarkySnowman:
Possible ice, very likely fire:

Masquerade:
Fairly likely ice, fairly likely fire:

Firebringer:
Unlikely ice, unlikely fire:

Something_Smart:

Oh shut the fuck up cancel all this.

VOTE: Shinobi

TheShadow: Scum - doesn't show up when his top lynch is at L-1. His top scumread is one that is completely unexplained. Obvious scum, should be lynched ASAP. Calling him a lurker and letting him slide is just bad.

Cobalt: Also scum - doesn't explain their reads under any circumstances, instead relying on generic lines like "they sound worse with every post - they look like scum scumhunting, not town scumhunting," without having any way to back up their statements. Relied on calling my slot a "policy lynch" without explaining why. It's bullshit but apparently everyone is okay with that because lolmeta.

Aeronaut: My third pick for scum - has been on site and posting elsewhere in yet doesn't care enough to show up despite the fact that the day is at an end and he isn't nearly caught up enough to make an informed decision. His only catchup post was centered on smearing scum on obvious things like people responding to questions and centering his scumreads on them being scum rather than the reasoning as to why they actually are. I think I confused him with beeboy earlier but I don't know what that says about beeboy.

Beeboy: null - has been posting but I can't really remember them having much impact on anything. He just sorta jumped on my bandwagon at the last second for...Reacting to something? His logic didn't really hold up since

Ika: town and someone I hope I never play with again. iirc he tends to be kind of spacey in regards to early game and tends to just hammer people whenever regardless of his alignment. It's annoying having him show up to play with me just so he can muck about and do nothing while I get lynched.

Silverwolf: null - I have no idea where to start here. I flip my read on her every 10 minutes. I'm fully aware my bias against people who tunnel me could be coloring my read but I genuinely have no idea.

Masq: probably town - I hated his early jump and am genuinely angry about it, but at least he's giving me some time to do stuff before he inevitably hammers me for what the fuck ever.

Something_Smart: possibly town? He's irrational and impossible to deal with but I can sort of see his posts coming from town, despite how misguided he is.

Aristo: possibly town? He said a bunch of stuff I liked earlier but he's nowhere to be found. I feel like he should be more interested than he is but it's plausible that he's just mia.

SnarkySnowman: probably town - I don't see a reason for scum to stick up for me here? But I'd really like to see his reasoning on why he likes me enough to start being vocal about disliking my wagon considering it's the only thing that defines him in this game thus far.

VLG: probably town - I thought his earlier push was hard to mimic for scum considering how much force he put behind it. Again, I see little reason for scum to call attention to themselves by proposing a variety of lynches and then trying to back me at EoD.

This is ice. The ONLY person he forgot on his reads list was the other Ice dude.

[Viva La Gloria]

SO was a major wagon at this point.

What are the chances that he just HAPPENS to forget about him in the readslist?

[Viva La Gloria]

Anyway, I'll continue with the readslist now, but I'm pretty fucking sure that Shin is scum here.

That's so glaring.

[Viva La Gloria]

In fact yeah I can't really carry on atm.

I need a Shinobi flip. Lynch it.

[Viva La Gloria]

That's sketchy as fuck dude.

[Viva La Gloria]

I wasn't tunneling you either but I got a journal entry?

[Viva La Gloria]

I was tunneling at the very beginning but I graduated to a townread on you.
Just saying.

[Viva La Gloria]

SO was a major wagon at this point.

What are the chances that he just HAPPENS to forget about him in the readslist?

I flat out said I wasn't concerned with him because he was one of the few people not tunneling me.

When was this?

You don't bring him up at all anywhere near that post as far as I can see.

[Viva La Gloria]

SO was a major wagon at this point.

What are the chances that he just HAPPENS to forget about him in the readslist?

I flat out said I wasn't concerned with him because he was one of the few people not tunneling me.

When was this?

You don't bring him up at all anywhere near that post as far as I can see.

A while beforehand.
I started talking about him again during day 2 but ika hammered him too quickly for me to reassess the slot.

Yeah, no.

[Viva La Gloria]

I feel like I never want to play multiball again.

Trying to keep track of two factions is killing me.

[Viva La Gloria]

Dude like trying to organize my thoughts is cancer.

Can we like lynch scum today please.

[Viva La Gloria]

Fire I can understand.
You think that I hard bussed my partner D2 in multiball, and was trying to bus them the previous day?
That's somewhat outlandish.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

I really have issues believing that he believes what he posted.

[Viva La Gloria]

There's 0 scumhunting in that post.
You declare a bunch of things that don't make much sense and seem far more likely to be a scum narrative than anything else.
You post votecounts but do no VCA. There's literally zero words of explanation of any of your reads, just names pulled out of a hat for why you're scumreading people.
And when I make #2 on your Ice chart despite trying for most of D1 to get SO lynched and powerwagoning him D2, I doubt that there's any real scumhunting there.
Your reads are made up.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'm gonna have to read this post from Snarky later.

I'm sad that all the colouring and work I put into my VCA he seems to have...totally missed?

He did no VCA.

He copy and pasted a bunch of votecounts into his post and said nothing about them.

[Viva La Gloria]

~Most Ice~
Masq
Shinobi
Firebringer
VLG
Aristo
Something Smart
~Least Ice~

Was what I meant - my b.

VLG is still definitely scum though.

Not a chance. Bye dude.

[Viva La Gloria]

Oh, and that 'new' most-least ice list is basically {3 people who didn't vote SO}{3 people who did, with me as most scummy of them}

So extremely fabricated.

[Viva La Gloria]

Your reads are fake as shit, your push on me is awful, you had to retract your entire readslist when I called you out on it, and there's no visible thought process that leads to your asinine conclusions.

If you're not scum then you're a fairly awful player.

[Viva La Gloria]

Well, maybe wait and see what others say. Tell me why you're not scum, other than because I'm "a fairly awful player".

I'm not getting lynched. You might though!
You've given no reasons to scumread me and the people who are actually scumhunting are fairly universally townreading me.
No one thinks that I'm likely to be Ice in particular, and thinking that I'm more likely to be Ice than, say, Aristo makes absolutely no sense.
I don't even have a case to answer to try to get us on the same page because you frankly haven't made a case. You just declared me scum with no reasoning.
Like I'm pretty fine lynching you at this point. If you're town then you me an asston of explanation.

[Viva La Gloria]

Oh, and that 'new' most-least ice list is basically {3 people who didn't vote SO}{3 people who did, with me as most scummy of them}

So extremely fabricated.

Don't agree with this.

Why do you believe that any more thought when into Snarky's reads than he's posted?
His reads don't jive whatsoever and the Ice list is indeed the 3 people who didn't vote -> 3 who did.
Do you think having me as most likely of the SO voters to be scum makes any sense whatsoever?
I don't think I make a ton of sense as Fire either but given that it's not as smoking gun obvious I'm not even going to address that.

[Viva La Gloria]

Snarky, that is horrible. Your reasons don't follow logically from the thread, and your reads don't follow logically from your reasons. Your vote on Viva indicates that you have not read for content, only for associations, and they only tell part of the story.
Then, when Viva is incredulous, you change it to make him feel better.
It doesn't look like you can make good cases... why don't you sheep somebody else's (like mine). Go back and read Fire and SO and tell me how they could possibly not be buddies.

This sort of assumes that he's town.

Why?

[Viva La Gloria]

That basically reads to me as 'I'm only scumhunting one faction!'

I wonder if scum would actually be so blunt about it.

[Viva La Gloria]

Well you're wrong.

If you're town and can walk me through some of your thought process I can explain where you went wrong.

You just up and declaring me Fire scum after being pressured like this reads as Ice scum who may mistakenly believe that I'm fire, but more importantly doesn't actually have any investment in searching for Ice and wants to avoid lynching anyone who could be lynched in the Ice pool and so you're going after me to avoid narrowing the pool of people who could be with SO. Putting me high on the Ice pool in particular feels really dirty because it looks like you're trying to pretend like you're scumhunting Ice as well instead of being blunt about saying 'Hey, I think X is Silverwolf's partner because Y.'

[Viva La Gloria]

I need to reread and get my thoughts straightened out.

[Viva La Gloria]

Well you're wrong.

If you're town and can walk me through some of your thought process I can explain where you went wrong.

You just up and declaring me Fire scum after being pressured like this reads as Ice scum who may mistakenly believe that I'm fire, but more importantly doesn't actually have any investment in searching for Ice and wants to avoid lynching anyone who could be lynched in the Ice pool and so you're going after me to avoid narrowing the pool of people who could be with SO. Putting me high on the Ice pool in particular feels really dirty because it looks like you're trying to pretend like you're scumhunting Ice as well instead of being blunt about saying 'Hey, I think X is Silverwolf's partner because Y.'

This looks like it was written by a crazy person.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean.

[Viva La Gloria]

Can we not lynch Fire today?
I'm liking his slot a lot more since I did my reread.
Rather see a Snarky or Aristo or Masq lynch atm.
Let me finish reading shit and get my thoughts out.

[Viva La Gloria]

Or shin but I'm wavering on that again.

[Viva La Gloria]

Yeah what's wrong with that rc guy...

That.

[Viva La Gloria]

Phone posting sucks get back to this later

[Viva La Gloria]

Yeah wanted to try to do things a little different. Will continue that.

[Viva La Gloria]

SS, how about you share your thoughts?

Fire is not a scumread, is all - he's not a townread either. I just don't really buy the case against him. I would like a claim though considering the setup.

This is just so horrible to want a claim on someone you're not scumreading regardless of the setup.
The only ways I can interpret this are scum role fishing and actually being the doc (and thus hoping to be CCed) which pisses me off.

[Viva La Gloria]

Yay, I got outed and the doc hates my guts.

Alright, we're definitely not lynching Firebringer then since I only get one shot.

Full catchup tomorrow.

[Viva La Gloria]

k promise today finish readslist and stuff

[Viva La Gloria]

Alright let's make a deal SS.
Pick the scum faction that you think that I am.
I will choose the lynch today and lynch for that faction.
If I lynch correctly you doc me the rest of the game, otherwise you can lynch me tomorrow.
Deal?

[Viva La Gloria]

Alright, give me a bit to figure out who we're lynching today.

[Viva La Gloria]

Firebringer is probably not Fire as a result of his weird reaction to being read as Fire and his/Aeronaut's generally towny play.
I can't see him being Ice considered Silverwolf prompted him to replace out in thread either.
Wouldn't want to lynch him for either faction tbh.

Snowman is uncced doc.

Aristo and Shinobi are absolutely not fire.


That leaves us Masquerade and Something_Smart.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: Something_Smart

This is scum.

[Viva La Gloria]

S_S only addresses SW at 2 points.

On day 1, when Ika votes SW S_S declares that Ika's vote on SW is 'idiosyncratic' and thus discredits his scumread on her and his vote.
On day 2, when Ika is pushing SW again S_S says that he disagrees with his case on her ISO and says that S_O is a better lynch.

At no point does he ever go into why he's townreading her to the extent that he is. no other mentions of her or explanations of his read on her.

I further point out that S_S is pushing Firebringer on an agenda of him being Ice even though by his own admission he's narrowed down the PoE field of Fire scum to only Masquerade.

He's been scummy in general with his weird pushback against me for actually scumhunting Shinobi, a lot of his posts have been terrible but they haven't felt terrible in a way that's reflective of S_S town (and I've seen bad play from him in the past), and his last comment 'you think I'm Ice' is just weird as fuck.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'll look over Masq but I'm pretty sure that we've got Fire nailed.

[Viva La Gloria]

Oh jeez Masquerade is awful as well.

UNVOTE:

[Viva La Gloria]

Alright so fire is definitely one of

{S_S, Masq} but more likely S_S.

Ice is

{Aristo, Masq, maybe Shin}

The way S_S assumed that SS was town when he said scummy shit strikes me as scum knowing that he wasn't fire and trying to lynch the other faction here (ice) which makes me think that he's scum over Masq, plus the fact that he's just been generally scummier in general and the fact that Masq legitimately does not discuss SW at any point seems unlikely from scumpartners because I'd think they'd at least -try- to distance at some point, so the minimal contact between S_S and SW is more likely to be scum.

Aristo is still my biggest pick for ice for the reasons I've already explained but Masq also makes a ton of sense as ice.

[Viva La Gloria]

I would like to lynch in the fire pool so that I can maybe be cleared and docced tomorrow, plus there's only two real fire candidates.

Can we switch the wagon?

[Viva La Gloria]

Viva, if I were Fire why would I be trying to lynch Ice, when it would then be 4:1, rather than trying to nightkill them, leading to 3:1? Compare my push on Firebringer to Masquerade, who appears to be scumreading him but won't admit it, because they don't want to lynch Ice, and tell me how Masq is town here.

Masq, thoughts?

[Viva La Gloria]

Lynching you would be optimal if I were scum because I'm fairly sure you're town now and regardless of which scum faction I would be on the other scum would be highly unlikely to shoot me.
I would have no difficulty reviving my Firebringer!Fire theory and creating false justification for it to lynch you if that's what I wanted to do without anyone batting an eyelash.
Help me lynch scum and you won't have to worry about my alignment. easy!

[Viva La Gloria]

RC why is fire town?
I think I asked before but I don't remember getting an answer.

Because he doesn't really make sense on either scumteam.

[Viva La Gloria]

Or more specifically, Aero doesn't really make sense on either scumteam.

[Viva La Gloria]

I don't see Aero!icescum replacing out because SW called him out on his inactivity.
Fire's said some stuff today that's struck me as towny as well.
Plus, even if Fire was Ice, Snowman is being an idiot so we need to lynch in fire today.
It's between you and Marq. I'm leaning you atm.

[Viva La Gloria]

I've been thinking about this at length and I think that a no lynch is actually quite good.
Both scum will most likely attempt to cross kill and if they succeed we could end up with groups of people cleared.
I can't make up my mind between SS and Masq atm. I'd prefer if we forced scum to shoot each other here.
It gives us a ton of information and since today is in effect MyLo I think it's probably the best answer.

[Viva La Gloria]

Trying to get my bearings here because SS isn't reacting how I would expect him to if he's Fire.

Like he correctly pointed out, forcing a 1v1 here just doesn't end up well regardless of the ending. Snarky would also be a horrible kill because even though it frames me it leaves the game with a much wider ice pool than fire pool, and frankly framing me just doesn't serve his interests. You could argue that he wasn't thinking ahead; but his comments today prove that he is. Unless he thought he could trick Ice into misfiring but that seems incredibly unlikely.

I think that Fire is not someone who was on my major Fire list. Firebringer or Aristophanes most likely.

S_S, I am town. Your reactions today and yesterday have made me think that you probably are too. Work with me.

[Viva La Gloria]

Wait a minute.
Viva is reacting exactly how I would expect him to if he's Fire.
His only hope is to lynch out of the two of us and hope the Ice shoots me.

I would be much more comfortable lynching Viva today.

Viva is reacting like someone who doesn't think that you're fire scum based on your reaction.
I can't see you expecting to win this 1v1 and like you said, even winning this 1v1 would be unhelpful if you are fire because you'd just eat fire.
If you're town, 2/3 of Aristo/Shin/Firebringer are maf. Ice will likely see you as fire and shoot you and it's a town lose automatically after that.

Be useful.

[Viva La Gloria]

Prod dodge. this game tomorrow.

[Viva La Gloria]

1) we've fully established that Ranger cannot read me. She's misread me fairly consistently as both alignments.
2) shush. I'm figuring this out.

[Viva La Gloria]

If I haven't made a major content post by tomorrow I'll replace out.

You guys deserve better from me.

[Viva La Gloria]

VOTE: SS

We're doing this 1v1 today actually, but not for the reasons you guys will think.
I think that SS is actually Ice and not Fire. Aristophanes is the fire.
But, I don't think that I can muster the votes to lynch after today.
So, we're lynching him today.

I might be wrong and he might just be fire and this whole thing could be a waste of time, but this is where my head's at right now.

[Viva La Gloria]

The other good option is that we can NL.
Hopefully at least one scum will follow my reads and a flip will help us with the next lynch.
It's better than the alternative at this point I think.

[Viva La Gloria]

I will vote Aristo on the condition that if I'm not alive in endgame everyone speedvotes SS.

I'm positive that SS is ice mafia.

[Viva La Gloria]

Actually Fire might be scum.

I'm not sure which slot he'd take.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'll smash this tmrw.

[Viva La Gloria]

no yo'ure not

[Viva La Gloria]

Tonight. Promise.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'd NL if I thought scum would shoot properly. I expect both scum to shoot town.

[Viva La Gloria]

Is that a scumclaim?

[Viva La Gloria]

Ugh.

I'll hammer a NL if it comes to it with my reads list.

[Viva La Gloria]

Really sorry about this game being shitty for me.

[Viva La Gloria]

I think that Fire is Fire. Give me a bit to reread and make sure though.

[Viva La Gloria]

There were some associatives D1 that I thought virtually precluded you being Fire so there's that.

But I generally just think that it's Firebringer because I don't think you're scum in general and he would definitely have made the Aristo kill.

What are you thinking atm?

[Viva La Gloria]

The fuck are you even saying Firebringer.

Also RC is alive in LYLO, another scum tell for you.

I was only outed as RC for one night phase where scum were trying to cross kill and/or stop cross kills on them.
This is just fucking nonsense.
Furthermore, I was widely in consideration for being Fire mafia. Why the hell would fire!scum shoot someone who is obviously not Ice who is in the fire pool?
Firebringer if you're actually town here you're being a fucking nimrod. get your shit together.

Did a quick Ctrl+F, used both Shinobi and Viva to see mentions:

1 Mention Vivia
44 Mentions Shinobi.

If Shinobi were scum, why was Silverwolf bussing so much in here? It seems she didn't mention Viva to keep distance.

No, this should actually fucking confirm me as town.
I would never let the associatives between myself and one of my partners look as shitty as myself and Silverwolf do this game. ever.
Silverwolf never made an impression on me and I was busy pushing on other people (who flipped fucking scum.)
If I WERE scum by day 2 at least I would have looked back and seen how shitty we look together and started addressing her more.
I didn't. I instead hard pushed my Ice scumread in a way that would have made me an incredibly likely night kill target.

Oh, and remind me, who is the only one currently alive who

didn't

think that Aristophanes was Ice mafia?
If I were scum I'd have fucking shot SS because I was pretty fucking sure he was Ice and cross killing someone who would autovote me is the obviously correct play.
If I somehow anticipated that random ass self target then I'd have shot anyone besides the person widely read as Fire.
Why would I shoot Aristophanes?

Like if you look back I was pretty fucking explicit that I thought Aristo was fire, and SS was Ice. Even if you think that I'm fire and lying, I'd still want to lynch/shoot my Ice read.

So no. I'm town and your case on me is absolute crap.

I've been pretty sure Shinobi was town from day 1 so I'm going to be voting Fire here, plus he's being an absolute moron if he's town saying the things that he is.
If you anything to say about why you're town / Shinobi's scum then make it now.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like I can't do anything now about the shit associatives that hilariously caused Ice to self target or that led the Fire scumreads on me, but Firebringer you are fully fucking aware that I always have a ton of dialogue with my scumpartners and that I'm paranoid as fuck about being caught out because of my partners. And this is fucking multiball so I'd be on the point about that 10* harder than usual.

Oh, and the nightkills make no fucking sense coming from me. I have absolutely no issues getting Ranger to do what I want as scum. She's had me as her single strongest townread both times I've rolled scum against her.

I would have changed her mind instead of getting pissy at her for not explaining her reads. Why the fuck would I night kill Ranger when I can change her mind easily?

And killing Ika? fuck no. I had just strongarmed a lynch onto Ice scum. If Silverwolf were my partner I'd have left Ika alive because I would have wanted to bus the shit out of SW the next day. PoEd as neither scum faction without being RC known and therefore people less wary of bussing, literal autowin.

Not even going to mention the last two days which were both kills that I wouldn't even come close to making.

There was a point in this game I thought Shin was basically mod confirmed scum and I respect that read enough not to have voted yet. Firebringer, if you're town then Shinobi's the scum and you're going to need to see that if town is going to get anywhere.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like fucks sake.

You've seen my scum game enough to know that this is not it.

[Viva La Gloria]

SS shot himself because he thought Fire would shoot him and wanted to keep himself alive.
Guess this is one instance where it's good that people weren't listening to me.

[Viva La Gloria]

yeah, sorry but tiebreaker draws are cancer.

I feel like you're scum and have just given up.

[Viva La Gloria]

Because I've seen you mislynched enough for being a lazy fuck and being town?
Including in a few games where I was scum?
Seriously. Whatever alignment you are you owe this game more effort.

[Viva La Gloria]

Yeah see no that's 100% not how this game works.
I am town. If you're town as well, that makes Shin scum. If you're scum carry on.
So if you're town and are just going to sit there and deathtunnel me over nothing then we've already lost and it's 100% you fucking this up again.

Waiting for someone else to vote first doesn't mean that shit isn't your fault.

[Viva La Gloria]

I was pretty fucking hard on SO because I was sure he was scum.
I haven't been nearly as sure about any of my reads until I figured out that SS was Ice. And was pretty fucking hard on that.
I was uninvested and couldn't figure out who the scum was. That's just how the game works.
Tell me, why would I have killed Aristophanes last night when I was the ONLY person here who didn't think he was Ice?

Your scum. I can't find any posts in Shinobi ISO that says he is scum.

This is unfalsifiable.

[Viva La Gloria]

Last night was obvious cross kill attempt night.
Both you and Shinobi thought Aristo was Ice. I didn't. Aristo was shot by fire.
It doesn't take a fucking genius to realize that I'm town here dude.

[Viva La Gloria]

so

1) I would never attempt to force a draw. There's literally no reason for me to have done so.
2) secretly thought Aristo was Ice? lol.
If I did why did I put him down as Fire, making him likely to shoot me for his safety, while not even pushing for his lynch to get rid of his shot.
I only had SS voted for the entire second half of the day. That doesn't even start to make sense.
3) No, what the fuck? These things aren't even fucking comparable.

[Viva La Gloria]

The nightkill of the Fire Mafia and the Ice Mafia will fail if both groups of mafia target the same person.

[Viva La Gloria]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Fire_and_Ice

It's not in the OP of this one but that's how it works.

[Viva La Gloria]

I really don't like how you're not addressing the game at all Shin.

[Viva La Gloria]

You mean the day that I couldn't get a single one of you idiots to actually vote scum and where if SS hadn't self targeted like an idiot we'd have lost this because he'd have probably shot me?

Fuck off. I called scum and was ignored and lost interest. There's a huge difference between that and Shinobi asking completely pointless questions and not getting at all involved between us.

[Viva La Gloria]

You mean the day that I couldn't get a single one of you idiots to actually vote scum and where if SS hadn't self targeted like an idiot we'd have lost this because he'd have probably shot me?

Fuck off. I called scum and was ignored and lost interest. There's a huge difference between that and Shinobi asking completely pointless questions and not getting at all involved between us.

I don't necessarily think this is how any of that happened tbh.

Why can I not find this anywhere?

SS shot himself because he thought Fire would shoot him and wanted to keep himself alive.
Guess this is one instance where it's good that people weren't listening to me.

This is a thing?

Btw, did SS really shoot himself or is he just trolling?

I am about 90% sure Viva is last scum for a few reasons.
First of I went through ISO of Silverwolf.

Did a quick Ctrl+F, used both Shinobi and Viva to see mentions:

1 Mention Vivia
44 Mentions Shinobi.

If Shinobi were scum, why was Silverwolf bussing so much in here? It seems she didn't mention Viva to keep distance.

Also RC is alive in LYLO, another scum tell for you.

I don't really think this is enough tbh.
Is this all you've got?

Shinobi has been only coming in to throw potshots at both me and Fire and IIOA while expressing any of your own reads?.
I get a definite impression that you're just hoping that one of us will vote the other so you can hammer.
I absolutely loathe the way that you've been trying to get me and Firebringer to fight the other without picking a side or sharing reads. And all these tbhs are just nasty.

[Viva La Gloria]

And no, that's how that happened.
I'd have been much more engaged if people were listening to what I say.
Shinobi, post who you think is scum/town with reasons.

[Viva La Gloria]

You know I actually want to vote Shinobi here but that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Fire, if you're town here I'm fucking done with you.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like, so completely fed up.

I lynched your scumread who I was townreading, they fucking flipped town, and you promised to lynch my scumread then fucking didn't, afked and lurksacked the next day till you got lynched and town lost. and this is after you had the fucking balls to complain that I was too selfish to lynch someone someone else wanted the DAY AFTER I LYNCHED LANE BECAUSE YOU WANTED HIM LYNCHED.
then you ruined lylo with your awful quickvote in the game that I modded.
why don't you die? why the fuck would anyone kill you when you lose every game you're town in.

If you're going to be an idiot then I'm going to vote yon and if you're town you can explain to everyone why you pushed someone who even a fucking 5 year old could deduce was town here.
like I guarantee you I will find a fucking kindergarten classroom and ask the kids who the one person they think is town this game and 100 fucking percent of them will say it's me.

Shinobi has been sidelining this entire discussion the absolute fucking hardest, his 'new points' are basically entirely a rehash of stuff that was already said on day one and are entirely pointless. like no shit you were scum that game but that doesn't change the fact that IN MOST GAMES you rvsed and you didn't in this one and acted like the concept was stupid. And now that you know it's me you should know full fucking well why I chose that game instead of looking for one where you were town.

like that 'tempting' coming after he was pushing in the direction of voting Fire looks to me like he realizes that I won't be fooled and is just looking for the quick win.
Why don't you see it?

As for the 'I lied about my reads thing', why the fuck did I put him as a clear scumread then push someone else?
If I thought he was Ice why wouldn't I have just fucking lynched him and pushed the lynch on SS who was widely scumread anyway?
Your read on me is awful and I'm

Unless you're just scum but I seriously doubt that at this point.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like you've played awful this entire game and Shinobi has already expressed that he doesn't like your previous slots.
And I previously expressed a scumread on you yesterday and that nightkill gives me strong impetus for voting you so it's not like
Do you realize how easy it would be for me to just push a shitcase on you for playing badly and get you lynched like I've done any manner of times?
And you should know full fucking well that if I were scum here getting Shin to vote you here would be both easy and the obvious play.

Pull your head out of your ass.
Shinobi's play today has been awful and if you can't see it there's no hope for you at all.

[Viva La Gloria]

No, Firebringer is the one acting like an angry fucking baby.

If you win this you do not deserve this fucking win at all Shin. I had you pinned on the first page.

[Viva La Gloria]

And this misrepresentation is fucking awful.
I never said it was a scumtell to not RVS; I said it was odd for him to act the way he did with that faked superiority about RVSing when he RVSes normally in other games.

[Viva La Gloria]

You shut up.

[Viva La Gloria]

No go on, tell me more in postgame about how I deserve the loss because I was mean to Firebringer and he's justified for not being able to hammer shit because of it.

[Viva La Gloria]

I made it 100% fucking clear that it wasn't about whether RVSing vs not RVSing is not a tell for you.

I said you were scum for awkwardly trying to be way too serious on the first page when you don't have an established meta of always attacking people for RVSing.

Stop.

[Viva La Gloria]

aka let's just tread water until Firebringer votes like an idiot.

[Viva La Gloria]

in fact fuck it.

VOTE: Shinobi

if I'm losing this I'm voting scum.

[Viva La Gloria]

I don't give a shit. you're scum.

[Viva La Gloria]

like wtf is that even supposed to mean?

why should I care about your game reread?

[Viva La Gloria]

Saves you the trouble of pretending that you're scumhunting, yeah.

and FYI, if Town!Shin got voted by the person who he had indicated on the previous page was his townread relative to the other person, this isn't how he'd react.

[Viva La Gloria]

lol 'going down in flames'

[Viva La Gloria]

Uhhhhh what?

Like if this isn't a scumclaim then I don't know what is.

[Viva La Gloria]

no shit.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'm going to be honest, FB - I'm pretty surprised.
I don't think I ever would have voted RC over you.

Who have you been poking and prodding at?
What about that 'tempting' line?

[Viva La Gloria]

I am going to be honest with you. I thought I was getting lynched 100%.
I just didn't want to be the one to fuck this game up.

You would have been if I were scum.
Do you think that town!Shinobi's reaction to the person that he townreads voting him is 'Uhh what' then voting me?
Like it would basically be throwing away a confirmed win for me to have voted Shinobi where I did.

And that 'oh look I'm surprised' post is disingenuous as shit.

[Viva La Gloria]

yawn.

yeah, I do it as scum. because I do it as town. see how that works?

[Viva La Gloria]

yeah whatever.

I think I've made my case.

1) I would never have had the absolutely zero back and forth that I have with SW as one of my scumbuddies. She never interested me until D2 but the D2 lynch happened so fast it was never really a big deal.
2) I hardpushed a lynch onto ice scum D2. Even on an alt, I'd be paranoid enough of getting cross killed that I'd play safer.
3) I don't know how to convince you if you're just going to say that I was making up reads even though I spent the entire day from when I figured it out trying to get
Should I point out the fact that SO was the ONLY person missing on Shin's read list on D1 again?
4) I don't know what to say about the Silverwolf pushing Shin thing. I don't understand why they did it; maybe Shin felt that he'd be able to keep himself alive? I note that Silverwolf mostly pressured him after the major wagon on him had subsided somewhat.
5) Why did I vote Shin as scum when he was scumreading you and you were about ready to vote me.

He can go on in post game if he is town in post game about how much I suck, but he has been flip flopping on a lot of his reads and most of his shit doesn't make sense. I have been reading Shinobi as town this whole game. I can't imagine he has been fire this whole game. He has played an excellent scum game if he is.

I don't need more to go on in post game about.
If I wanted to write a book about you playing crappy as town I wouldn't be able to find a publisher it'd be so long.
Like literally; how the fuck can you think Shin is town with his play today?

[Viva La Gloria]

I'm obvtown.
Everyone in dead thread will have spent the entirety of today pointing out that I should be basically cleared at this point.

Shinobi, who would you have killed last night if you were fire?
Same to you Viva.

I would have killed SS who I was pretty fucking sure was Ice.
Who do you think Shinobi would have killed? Hint: read his ISO yesterday.

I was reading him as town way before this.

Why aren't you rethinking it based on how terrible his play today has been?
Why are you townreading him, for starters?

I can't argue about the SW stuff because I don't know why they did it and I agree it makes it look pretty town but my play throughout this game should make it clear that I'm town here.
But don't forget that SS wasn't even in the commonly accepted Ice pool and he was the Ice. These associative reads are unhelpful.

[Viva La Gloria]

Fire.

Why do you think that Shinobi is town?

[Viva La Gloria]

Link me that.

I don't think that I would have been likely to self target because I would accept a town win off of scum double killing each other.

[Viva La Gloria]

I'd have probably just said SS, simply because it seemed like a far more neutral kill than RC.

SS/RC aka the two people commonly read as Fire and he'd be eating into the people that would get lynched before him for that alignment.
LIKE HOLY FUCK. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like he's clearly just looking for a way not to say Aristo even though that makes no fucking sense.
He was hard pushing Aristo all day and I believe explicitly as Ice no less. Why would he say that he's not trying to cross kill.
Like jeeesus. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT SHINOBI IS TOWN.

[Viva La Gloria]

yeah whatever.

I think I've made my case.

1) I would never have had the absolutely zero back and forth that I have with SW as one of my scumbuddies. She never interested me until D2 but the D2 lynch happened so fast it was never really a big deal.
2) I hardpushed a lynch onto ice scum D2. Even on an alt, I'd be paranoid enough of getting cross killed that I'd play safer.
3) I don't know how to convince you if you're just going to say that I was making up reads even though I spent the entire day from when I figured it out trying to get
Should I point out the fact that SO was the ONLY person missing on Shin's read list on D1 again?
4) I don't know what to say about the Silverwolf pushing Shin thing. I don't understand why they did it; maybe Shin felt that he'd be able to keep himself alive? I note that Silverwolf mostly pressured him after the major wagon on him had subsided somewhat.
5) Why did I vote Shin as scum when he was scumreading you and you were about ready to vote me.

He can go on in post game if he is town in post game about how much I suck, but he has been flip flopping on a lot of his reads and most of his shit doesn't make sense. I have been reading Shinobi as town this whole game. I can't imagine he has been fire this whole game. He has played an excellent scum game if he is.

I don't need more to go on in post game about.
If I wanted to write a book about you playing crappy as town I wouldn't be able to find a publisher it'd be so long.
Like literally; how the fuck can you think Shin is town with his play today?

[Viva La Gloria]

Shinobi, who would you have killed last night if you were fire?
Same to you Viva.

Not Aristo lmao.
I'd probably be shooting into RC/S_S - both looked relatively interested in the outcome of the game as opposed to you/Aristo last dayphase. I'm a huge sucker for active/passionate players and I generally rate them significantly higher on my kill-list than people who dither about.

If you forced me to come up with a more concrete answer, I'd have probably just said SS, simply because it seemed like a far more neutral kill than RC.

Like how is that the most obviously faked answer ever.
'not Aristo'

[Viva La Gloria]

No it's okay I spent the entire yesterday pushing Aristo as Ice but I'm DECIDING that I wouldn't kill aristo and would instead kill... SS who the actual town said they'd kill.
And don't even pretend that you 'didn't think about it in that way' because we've been discussing the cross killing aspect all day today and yesterday. that's complete crap.

This doesn't sound like something you say about your scum teammate.

...it doesn't?
waffling is towny now?

[Viva La Gloria]

like there's no arguments that I can make when I know full well that my scum game is virtually indistinguishable from my town game, and the day 1 play from silverwolf thing is pretty relevant.

[Viva La Gloria]

It sounds honest.

Well it's not.

like if there's anything that you should believe and take to heart as to why I'm town here
it's that this is not how I would approach the game as scum.
I have absolutely no motivation to get into a protracted fight with you as scum. it's unpleasant for both of us and I'd rather just take the quick win by getting Shinobi to vote you.

do you think that what we're doing now is fun for me?

[Viva La Gloria]

Then why are you obvious town?

Zzz.

All you have been doing is insulting my play and abilities to play this game and done flailing over last two pages.

what do you want me to say here?
like what do you want me to say here?

your case on Shinobi town is entirely unfalsifiable. you're describing scummy waffling as honest.
like Shinobi is an obvious scumfuck and you should lynch him for that. not because of anythign to do with reading me.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like, you've always missed something about my play Fire.

Like, when I'm scum my ISO is essentially flawless but you'd look at me and just have niggling feelings that I'm scum because something's just not right.
I can't outplay gut.

Conversely, when I'm town my ISO can be screwed and often scummy as hell but you should have a gut feeling that I'm here trying to solve the game.

And I'm betting you're sitting there thinking that with Silverwolf's hard distance and my lack of involvement yesterday that I *should* be scum for it but I think in your heart you should know that I'm town.

You should vote Shin or at least reread the shit out of him until you understand.

[Viva La Gloria]

Honestly, I don't know why you voted him to be honest. You would have had way better shot if you voted me.

I'm town.
This is just painful to read at tihs point.

[Viva La Gloria]

Don't townread me for being a dick.

Townread me for being town.

Where does Shinobi, this entire game, look like he's actually trying to solve a game?

[Viva La Gloria]

Being this indecisive is literally killing me.

K literally here's the thing
if your gut is telling you to vote me and it's the same gut that told you to vote heat and all that crap

you should literally do the exact opposite of what your gut says because it's 100% inaccurate as far as I've seen and here.

[Viva La Gloria]

but I don't think it is.

I think that you want to vote me from salt but I think you also know that I'm town here.

[Viva La Gloria]

I want to go back to old fire. Who would yolo at LYLO.
Being this indecisive is literally killing me.

And I said a few pages ago I would instant hammer you

If I believed you enough to get pissed and yell at you, why did I vote Shinobi if I were scum?

[Viva La Gloria]

Everything he's posted today 'seems like' a scum post because it's all scum posts.

[Viva La Gloria]

What he means is that you're scum and it's pretty fucking obvious.

[Viva La Gloria]

edit - I don't know, I felt pretty confident considering you were all gung-ho about voting RC and it seemed like we kinda had it.
Do I need to be jumpy about something aside from you psyching yourself out?

So you felt 'pretty confident' when your main townread who you 'would never have voted over Fire' voted you and you say 'Uhh what?'
And yeah, it's a common thing by people who don't know how to fake emotionality. Which is exactly Shin and part of how I caught him in that stupid game with Thor.

[Viva La Gloria]

No, you can't. You don't have the capability to genuinely fake something like that.
There's a reason I picked you page 1 here and within minutes of replacing in the aforementioned game. Your scum game is weak.
I think this whole detached tone thing from you is actually a huge scumtell as well but I'd need to do more meta research on that.

And Fire, for the record me and SW bussed Taly in Open 613.
I can post chunks from the scum PT if you're interested in the discussion around it.

My range is a little bit wider than that.

I notice that you're not arguing that you're not scum though.
And no, I don't think your range is. Go do something and show your scum range then. Let's see it.

[Viva La Gloria]

I said you were scum for how awkward and forced and 'HEY LOOK IM SCUMHUNTING' your non-RVS opener was.

You continually trying to reframe it as 'RC said Shinobi is scum for not RVSing!!!!' is disgusting.

[Viva La Gloria]

Oh, that's what I thought you were talking about.
And nah, your emotion faking is awful. I've seen it. Maybe it was better in that game, idk.
Link me the posts you think that you did a good job of faking emotion in and I can look it over.

[Viva La Gloria]

Firebringer, read my meta.

Find a game where my partners aren't frequently engaging with me.

[Viva La Gloria]

Like, I'm paranoid as hell about being caught by associatives, hence my reputation as the mad busser.
Don't you think that I would have been at least SOMEWHAT concerned about 0 back and forth between us?
Especially when she jumped on the D2 wagon IMMEDIATELY after me?
Like don't you think one of us would be like HOLY FUCK THIS LOOKS SO BAD LET'S ACKNOWLEDGE EACH OTHERS' EXISTENCES.

Your meta is shit.
I am not going into that, if I was going into your meta I would still hammer you right now.

[Viva La Gloria]

I mean I know I do do ridiculous shit as scum.
But this is a bit much, especially considering secret alt so I wouldn't have expected to even be able to use that as a defense.
Do you think that we really coincidentally never spoke to or mentioned each other at all and never brought it up nor felt the need to distance?