Mini Normal 1775 END!

[Garmr]

My top two would be garmr, texcat. The third one isn't very strong - but if needed lowell.

Can I ask why you think I am scum and it better not be because I voted you.

You nitpicked my playstyle. If I don't ask more questions to texcat I am scum.

I absolutely cannot see that as reasonable from any angle. The discussion that was going on had something to do with the fact that texcat voted Madonna while giving similar reasons to Sakura on day 1. I found it fishy and decided to start the day with the vote on her. The situation reached a stalemate because she said she didn't notice Sakura Hana's reasons earlier on during day 1 and only saw it when she was going through Madonna's ISO. There was no way to verify this, so I stopped and decided to focus my attention to lowell. One of the ways I do it is by using my vote - anyone at that point using an argument that I was jumping wagons is a very big scumspect in my eyes. While I don't think you did that, texcat did.

Your argument that the only reason I could have removed my vote from texcat at the very early start of day 2 is because I town read her is wrong. It wasn't just a simple unvote - it was a transfer of vote to lowell.

By the way, I am pretty sure that among the few people who did try to engage lowell today, I was one of them.

Your vote hasn't got much to do with this.

You nitpicked my playstyle. If I don't ask more questions to texcat I am scum.

I pointed out scum motive in your actions and couldn't find possible town reason in it thus not nitpicking your game style.

I absolutely cannot see that as reasonable from any angle. The discussion that was going on had something to do with the fact that texcat voted Madonna while giving similar reasons to Sakura on day 1. I found it fishy and decided to start the day with the vote on her. The situation reached a stalemate because she said she didn't notice Sakura Hana's reasons earlier on during day 1 and only saw it when she was going through Madonna's ISO. There was no way to verify this, so I stopped and decided to focus my attention to lowell. One of the ways I do it is by using my vote - anyone at that point using an argument that I was jumping wagons is a very big scumspect in my eyes. While I don't think you did that, texcat did.

I don't think you get the point. No one arguing you are scum because you jump wagons (well I'm not). Look from a outsiders point of view who has no information.

Person A: shift unvotes a scum read to go to a null read

Person B:asks why you did that

Person A: responds because I want to vote park on person d and person c was defending herself.

Person B: assume that arguing is taken as a town point by person B.

Person C: Says she finds Person A unvote suss and wants to interragote person A a little

Person A shifts vote to person C again in a omgussy reaction.


I am person B and that's how saw events play out. If you were a outsider How would you see this?

Your argument that the only reason I could have removed my vote from texcat at the very early start of day 2 is because I town read her is wrong. It wasn't just a simple unvote - it was a transfer of vote to lowell.

But there's more to my reasoning than just that it was the language and your behavior. Also earlier you said that texcat became null but this implies you were still scum reading texcat. It seems really inconsistent with other explanations.

By the way, I am pretty sure that among the few people who did try to engage lowell today, I was one of them.

Your vote hasn't got much to do with this.

Yeh it hasn't got much about how much you engaged with lowell.

[Garmr]

Truly endless salt.

Yes, yes you are lol. Post 771 Show hints of it.

[chilledtea]

Your argument that the only reason I could have removed my vote from texcat at the very early start of day 2 is because I town read her is wrong. It wasn't just a simple unvote - it was a transfer of vote to lowell.

But there's more to my reasoning than just that it was the language and your behavior. Also earlier you said that texcat became null but this implies you were still scum reading texcat. It seems really inconsistent with other explanations.

By the way, I am pretty sure that among the few people who did try to engage lowell today, I was one of them.

Your vote hasn't got much to do with this.

Yeh it hasn't got much about how much you engaged with lowell.

Texcat was null-scum.

[texcat]

I'm struggling to see your logic here.

1) In your mind, ChilledTea was explicitly acting scummy, especially given the "middle of the night" bit.
2) Madonna (town) saved Lowell from a lynch (in fact she explicitly acted to save him, though I certainly don't think she wanted to replace him).

How do these facts, in your own mind, lead you to think that Lowell is scummier than ChilledTea?


PS To clarify, here's where I am mentally. You're in a difficult situation as a lynch candidate, and I'm trying to decide if you're:

1) Looking for the easiest target (clearly Lowell, since he nearly got lynched on D1)
2) Looking for the honestly best scum read

#1 would be scum behavior (almost textbook). #2 would be town behavior. Convince me that you're at #2, because your responses are suggesting #1 instead.

I'm not sure I'm going to be any help. CT and Lowell are just about equal in my book. Your 2) above, about Madonna saving Lowell, is confusing to me. I may have said that Madonna saved Lowell, but I did not mean that Madonna intentionally or actively saved him, (although as you pointed out, she did). A50 speculated above that Madonna would have been lynched even if she had time to claim. I'm not so sure.

To your PS. To clarify, I first look for the honestly best scum read. And I found 2. Between those 2, I picked the one that is perhaps the easier target. I think they are both scum. I'd be happy to lynch both of them. Are you thinking that only one of them is scum?

So, at least let's combine our top 3 scum reads. Each and everyone should nominate 3 players for the lynch. This way -at least- we see who is reading whom as scum. The person with more suspicion on them gets lynched, but then if they flip we know who pushed them rather than who went for it out of boredom and frustration.

I've given my top 2. The third spot would go to perhaps Boonskiies who isn't reading, but is voting me anyway. Who first says he doesn't see any link between Garmr and me, but still threatens Garmr with the link. The third spot might go to Expedience or Sayaka Maizono for mostly omgus reasons.

And continuing my reads down the ladder gives us,
I was never sold on Knightmare as town and Toasty hasn't done anything to improve that slot. And I have no clue on the Goodlordwill slot. I was leaning townier on A50 after his vote with explanation of reasons for Lowell, but then his jump onto Madonna has made me start doubting him again.

[texcat]

Truly endless salt.

Yes, yes you are lol. Post 771 Show hints of it.

Huh? I don't understand this.

[Almost50]

More nominees please? At least Garmr & Expedience should be able to provide their respective top 3 scum reads.

[Almost50]

@smith:
May you vote Lowell, please? His flip should help you solidify or reverse your read on texcat. They can't be scum together, can they?

@chilled:
Likewise.

[Garmr]

Truly endless salt.

Yes, yes you are lol. Post 771 Show hints of it.

Huh? I don't understand this.

Basically I'm saying his first post was saltiest.

[Garmr]

More nominees please? At least Garmr & Expedience should be able to provide their respective top 3 scum reads.

quick summaries then.

Lets see

Chilled tea

- you can see in the past couple of pages why.

Boon

-I originally thought because he was more active than he usually is was a sign he was trying to improve his town game since he hardly gets voted as scum but these last couple of pages make me feel diffrent. I don't like how he was trying to threaten me by linking me to tex cat while buddying me at the same time.

Garmr, if you and texcat are scum together, bus your buddy now please. Texcat is scum, we can lynch you tomorrow instead of today, okay? See, if you think about it, I'm actually protecting you.

Chilled, if texcat flips town, I'm coming hard after you tomorrow.

Yeah, but Garmr is always like this too.

I really don't like being buddied.

Expedience

Once I started pushing chilled he basically chainsawing for chilled. Then when his reasoning were ever debunked or shown as null he starts having a hissy fit like he wants to keep his vote on me with no reasoning he wants a excuse to vote me.

So you can demolish his arguments, leaving you the sole victor and proud owner of Zero Well-Reasoned Scumreads? You can argue any stance, I'm sure.

Basically shows his salt and his incompetence at being unable to find a good reason to fake scum read me.

[chilledtea]

@smith:
May you vote Lowell, please? His flip should help you solidify or reverse your read on texcat. They can't be scum together, can they?

@chilled:
Likewise.

Lowell did a semi-soft claim. Even if I vote him I want it to be so that there is no hammer.

He is also V/LA at the moment. Lets wait a bit for him.

[mhsmith0]

@smith:
May you vote Lowell, please? His flip should help you solidify or reverse your read on texcat. They can't be scum together, can they?

@chilled:
Likewise.

Lowell did a semi-soft claim. Even if I vote him I want it to be so that there is no hammer.

He is also V/LA at the moment. Lets wait a bit for him.

Also, I don't really want to lynch for "information". I don't mind speculating on what a flip might mean as we go, but if we reach an impasse where that is the driving reason for our vote, then we've failed as a town. And I'm not ready to admit that kind of defeat this early on d2.

[Expedience]

More nominees please? At least Garmr & Expedience should be able to provide their respective top 3 scum reads.

quick summaries then.

Lets see

Chilled tea

- you can see in the past couple of pages why.

Boon

-I originally thought because he was more active than he usually is was a sign he was trying to improve his town game since he hardly gets voted as scum but these last couple of pages make me feel diffrent. I don't like how he was trying to threaten me by linking me to tex cat while buddying me at the same time.

Garmr, if you and texcat are scum together, bus your buddy now please. Texcat is scum, we can lynch you tomorrow instead of today, okay? See, if you think about it, I'm actually protecting you.

Chilled, if texcat flips town, I'm coming hard after you tomorrow.

Yeah, but Garmr is always like this too.

I really don't like being buddied.

Expedience

Once I started pushing chilled he basically chainsawing for chilled. Then when his reasoning were ever debunked or shown as null he starts having a hissy fit like he wants to keep his vote on me with no reasoning he wants a excuse to vote me.

So you can demolish his arguments, leaving you the sole victor and proud owner of Zero Well-Reasoned Scumreads? You can argue any stance, I'm sure.

Basically shows his salt and his incompetence at being unable to find a good reason to fake scum read me.

You don't really believe those players are scum for those reasons, that's ridiculous.

I don't think anyone reads your posts, but if they did, they'd see that 772 is entirely accurate.

Boonskiies was "threatening you", "linking you to texcat", and "buddying you", all at the same time? Those are some nice buzzwords, but that's obviously bullshit.

I'm not great at arguing and see that you know every trick in the book. By your own standards, there are zero "good reasons" to scumread you, because you can misrepresent and hand-wave in response to just about anything. Yet I still scumread you, even though you utterly obliterated every invalid character of every worthless post that I made, because I don't use those criteria.

Also, I was scumreading you since before the day started, but Sakura went V / LA or something.

[ToastyToast]

@ToastyToast:

1) wrt 682, in 43 I used the "newbie defense" with respect to my understanding of theory. Frankly, there are areas where I don't know as much as others. If that rubs you the wrong way, oh well I guess.

And while that may be genuine, it is a very easy cop-out for new scum players. This alone would not constitute a read, but I'm just pointing out to people that you shouldn't be getting shrugged off just for the fact that you are newer to the game. And I think a few players are doing just that.

2) Can you explain the "simultaneous" part? The quotes you cited (43 and 371) are over 48 hours apart.

Perhaps simultaneous isn't the best word. I mean it is hypocritical to use one's experience to defend themselves and then attack someone for the same reason. It may be low experience vs significant experience but I think the rest of my response explained why I don't like it. I'm really experienced but I often do the same things even if they get me in trouble. Lowell could have many reasons for continuing with the play-style he does and I find it scummy to suggest otherwise.

3) Why do you think trying to catch scum teams early is scummy? Should we not be looking for multiple scum? Should we not be working to develop other reads in case target #1 claims a PR? Should we not be exploring possible connections between slots for usefulness given flips? I don't really understand your perspective here.

Because it can get over-complicated really fast. I believe you should first get a scum flip and then establish connections from there. There are some exceptions to this--such as a player buddying up on a player widely thought to be town--but it is still a weak read until there is a flip to back it up.

It can also lead to chain lynching and incorrect reads further down the line. Like, this person MUST be on a scum team with x and x. One of them gets lynched, so the other two follow. If both flip town we're fucked. It is an easy strategy for scum if one of them is in trouble--they can use the lynch to their advantage.

Getting an incorrect read would come from the opposite situation: Ie, people believe 3 players are scum together. One gets lynched and flips town. The other two end up with a free pass at least temporarily.

Both are outcomes that ultimately benefit scum, so I feel like it is much less risky to just find a person you think is scummy on there own before focusing too much on associations between players (not to mention there could be a role like masons where two town players know one another's alignment and act accordingly)

[Lowell]

prodge, back tomorrow after eating mad ham yo

[Expedience]

Sakura, when you return, please vote Garmr. Will you do that for me? Make sure not to make any wagon speed arguments, though!

Why you should vote Garmr
- The shitty misrepresentation of chilledtea, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric (these are like protective clauses so that he can't answer back)
- Opportunistic vote on me after I call him out as scum, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric
- His push on Lowell evaporates when d2 begins, even though he wanted to lynch Lowell over Madonna yesterday, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric
- On d1 weirdly he read you, knightmare, and I all as town even though we argued with no legitimate explanation why, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric
- I asked you to, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric

[Garmr]

Sakura, when you return, please vote Garmr. Will you do that for me? Make sure not to make any wagon speed arguments, though!

Why you should vote Garmr
- The shitty misrepresentation of chilledtea, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric (these are like protective clauses so that he can't answer back)
- Opportunistic vote on me after I call him out as scum, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric
- His push on Lowell evaporates when d2 begins, even though he wanted to lynch Lowell over Madonna yesterday, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric
- On d1 weirdly he read you, knightmare, and I all as town even though we argued with no legitimate explanation why, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric
- I asked you to, and he always argues with any criticism of him or his posts using poor and scummy rhetoric

So basically anything I debunked you rule out as scummy rhetoric?

Also Lieing about me voting you

[Expedience]

Yes, precisely.

[Almost50]

@Expedience: You have yet to mention any other potential wagons you might be interested in.

[Expedience]

Sakura, Sakaya, texcat.

[Almost50]

Thank you

[mhsmith0]

@exp: is the sayaka case basically 293-296 or has other stuff caught your eye since then?

[Boonskiies]

Sakura, Sakaya, texcat.

This is where I am, except I add chilled there. One of Tex/chilled is scum. Sakura/Sayaka I see potential scum, but I really don't have a case I feel I should push off of over Tex/chilled.

[Expedience]

@exp: is the sayaka case basically 293-296 or has other stuff caught your eye since then?

I forgot why but Sakaya should post more. I remember thinking they were still scum when they posted at the start of d2 but I can't find many things to nitpick (likely because they aren't posting much). I find 603 scummy here somehow:

I usually attribute to this to scum, but practically everyone in this game is doing it except for like two or three people, so it can't be scum driven.

[mhsmith0]

@exp: is the sayaka case basically 293-296 or has other stuff caught your eye since then?

I forgot why but Sakaya should post more. I remember thinking they were still scum when they posted at the start of d2 but I can't find many things to nitpick (likely because they aren't posting much). I find 603 scummy here somehow:

I usually attribute to this to scum, but practically everyone in this game is doing it except for like two or three people, so it can't be scum driven.

Can you clarify why you think 603 is scummy? Do you think it's reasonable that she's simply making an attempt for the town to stop engaging in what she feels are anti town behaviors that SHOULD be primarily scum driven?

I agree with the lack of posting and production, but I'm not sure why that necessarily scummy as opposed to someone who may just need to be replaced due to unavailabilty (if her lack of availability continues/worsens).

I mean, I get why we shouldn't just put her in the town read pile, but I'm struggling to really see the case for her being at or near the top of the scum read pile either. I feel like her slot is one that needs to be sorted more on future production than having really earned any kind of solid read to date. I'm open to reasons I'm wrong here, but I'm not feeling this case right now.

[Expedience]

It looks fake, I don't really think that he cares about people quickhammering and such. I think he went too far in attempts to justify it as not alignment indicative, so it didn't look like he was doubtcasting anyone. To make him look like just some town who's frustrated with the gamestate rather than scum trying to capitalize off it.