Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Ranger]

I want to see more from Imperium after 1313.

[kelbris]

We have a replacement for Bellaphant, please welcome Virtue to the game. Also, VC incoming, was at a local "internal tabletop day" event.

[kelbris]

vote count 2.06

Bellaphant

Virtue (0): none
Severa (1): SnarkySnowman

Jim Heuristically_Alone

Ranger (3): MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman (3): Severa, Imperium, Nosferatu, Ranger
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (1): Acryon
Lowell (2): Ollie, killthestory
Nosferatu (0): none

acryon

Massive (0): none
OceanWind (0): none
Ollie (1): Lowell
not voting: Virtue
With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
day 2 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-05-04 20:01:46)

[Ranger]

I also made the same exact argument concerning your knowledge of BB and that I believed you were an alt and that's how I was reading you and your reaction to your partner.

In Mafiaception, I did have meta on BBMolla: Blitz 2. I was scum, yes. I was exaggerating, yes. I was also not lying.

You ignore that I clearly said that you were displaying knowledge you wouldn't have as a new player to claim that I asked you to talk about ongoing games, which I never did.

Except yes you are. You're saying I have knowledge I wouldn't have as a new player. I gained that knowledge through ongoing games. So, by making the accusation that I gained it through other means, yes you were. Because the only way I can answer truthfully is to say that it comes from ongoing games.

That you actually tried to claim I was trying to get you modkilled shows how much reaching bullshit you're putting into the game.

Who's writing words onto me now? I never said you were trying to get me modkilled. I said that you were deliberately making an argument I could not defend against without breaking rules. (Which probably would not result in a modkill.) It's something I don't see you, or ANY town player, do as town, but it IS something I've seen scum do. Multiple times in fact! Scum have tried to force rulebreaking or punishment of rulebreaking which town do not.

Point out that little stuff here and there why don't you?

The summary is already there in 1308. The little stuff all ties back to the SnarkySnowman issue. Most of your play revolves around SnarkySnowman's slot.

How is being noncommittal about a snowman lynch mean we're scum?

Yeah, this question really answers itself.

What do we gain out of it in the event he flips scum?

I don't know. (Skipping the next one since that takes time to show.)

How does Snarky make up a signficant majority of our iso?

Everything you're doing is basically going back to SnarkySnowman. Your interactions with me, your interactions with RadiantCowbells, your reads on other players, most of it revolves around SnarkySnowman.

Try to answer the question.

I don't know. It's something I'd expect Nacho to do. I don't know his mind well enough to guess. Testing the waters. Thinking he can get away with it. I could go on all day figuring out potential reasons, but I wouldn't know which of them would apply or not.

I thought we were doing it because we were trying to get on Magna's good side?

I said your push on CoM was suspiciously like the very behavior you described to get onto Magna's good side. I actually never thought about your current behavior being in that light, though thanks for the idea!

That would mean that we considered the rest of our team mates expendable and would want to keep ourselves under the best light possible, which would mean not shooting ourselves in the foot day one.

And there's plenty of material where you call SnarkySnowman('s slot) suspicious and plenty of material where you call Lowell suspicious if I recall correctly, so if my scumteam theory is correct you could in fact get away with it interactions-wise.

I've asked you to go back and point out where it looked like we didn't believe our CoM scum read. I don't think you did that.

I must have missed that request. For that matter, I don't recall making the accusation you didn't believe the CoM read except by virtue of the obvious "scum know scum, so don't believe ANY of their reads". You can by this point guess the response: when I can, I'll take a look.

I'd made the most noise about Lowell, yet he is RC's apparently.

RC and I have a running contest to see who the better scumhunter and nightkill magnet is.
He, unfortunately, is winning.

Bluntly, I didn't even really notice your Lowell point nor did I care much for it. I

did

care about having felt RC's reads were right on SnarkySnowman and Imperium, then learning my third scumread was also

his

third scumread.

What else didn't make sense about that is I don't remember RC ever calling us scum.

Several times. RC's iso is kinda long and it's not something I can just control-f "Imperium's scum" because I'm not sure he even called you by name when making the first accusations, so I would have to find it, but just ask him. He'll verify it.

[Ranger]

It was a bit overkill and read very fake to be like, 1, 2, 3, 7, some with minimal minutes between them.

Ollie being ignorant on a first game is believable.

This is not. Tammy and Nacho both, 100%, absolutely

know

that I display this tendency in games. Of course, ongoing is ongoing, so let's use recently completed games.

Example one. Town.
Example two. Scum.
Example three. Serial killer.
Example four. Town.
Example five. Town.
Example six. Scum.
Subverted: example seven. Scum...where I did

not

do this. I put in five minutes worth of effort to fake it, then cruised the rest of the game.
Example eight. Town.

I think we can thoroughly establish this is a null tell for me.

Imperium saying otherwise when they, 100%, absolutely KNOW this is the case,

that

makes them scum.

[Ranger]

Sheeps Ranger who has basically spent significant time in this game literally marinating herself in self-meta.

I've done no such thing?

The only time I've used self-meta is when a player has made a claim about my own meta.

All my other uses of meta have been strictly offensive: using it to townread you, using it to scumread Imperium, using it to scumread SnarkySnowman, etc.

See but it certainly can be delayed if you chose to, perchance, pursue other scum reads which you could explain.

Which is, time allowing, exactly what I've done? I've tried working around limitations to give reasons why SnarkySnowman is scum. I've given reasons for every townread I've been asked about. I've been having this rather long back and forth between Imperium in case you haven't noticed! The only scumread I

haven't

pushed is Lowell, and frankly, I don't see what good it'll do. I want SnarkySnowman hanged. I have a wagon there. Lowell is inactive. Pressuring him won't do much. I'd only switch to him if I decided I wanted him lynched more than SnarkySnowman.

and doing nothing else but defend.

Hmm, maybe perchance I would be spending less time

defending

if, oh, you know, I was facing

a whole lot less attacks

.

The most striking thing about her townplay was that immediately upon replacing in, she suspected a strong player that hadn't received much suspicion before and aggressively went after them.

And in

what

realm is going after

Imperium

not qualify as doing this?

[Ranger]

i.e. "Ollie, Imperium, Ocean let's derail the wagon on the one person who is beyond a shadow of a doubt not town focused and whose only defense by others is that he's probably just a VI"

Why did I

ever

let my townread on you weaken?

With Ranger, I know that she's competent and capable of in-depth thoughts.

And normally I can back it up, too.

Do you know how frustrating it is that I can't right now?

I can tell you about SnarkySnowman. I can tell you about Imperium. But everything I say, without the understanding of its true source of origin, is virtually worthless because the in-depth thought comes from somewhere else.

Ranger's other reads are pretty shallow as well - like the read on Ollie for example.

You keep

saying

this while ignoring what I've actually

said

. You haven't asked me about most of my reads. The reads you have asked about I've given limited responses on because

I'm in constant defense mode right now

. I am being attacked, day after day, on an incredibly emotional level even, so I haven't been ABLE to give more. There's more to Ollie being town. There's more to a bunch of other players being town, too, like you. (Which you never asked about.) If you shut up about me being scum, backed off, gave me space where I was allowed time to focus, do you know what I'd do?

I'd actually answer your request! Especially with a reminder, since things are slipping my mind now, but no. I haven't gotten that. I've been attacked. And attacked. And attacked. And when I'm attacked NO FREAKIN DUH I'm not going to be doing much attacking of my own.

[Ranger]

No barely-competent player would do what Ranger is accusing Imperium of doing.

Except, 100%, Nacho

has

.

[Ranger]

Have you realized the mental gymnastics that you're trying to do to call us scum yet?

In a sense.

Trying to describe things without crossing a line is, in fact, very very hard to do.

Are you actually thinking that through?

I've made that abundantly clear, yes.

[Ranger]

When did we drive an earlier jmo/snarky wagon?

That

I can find quickly. 215 is strong. 349 was another strong push. 352 is another one. 461 furthers the push. In 477, your question asking why Killthestory has him as town carries the implication of you having the opposite, which fits with the above.

You were calling for support there.

At the time, it did not materialize.

When it did, you backed off.

How and when did the interest begin?

I'd have to manually reread the thread to answer this. Some time after RC-as-Severa was in the game, some time after SnarkySnowman was actually in the game, somewhere around where he gave his shallow reads without reasons. People saw it as scummy, and interest grew. Immediately after this, you went all-out on ChurchOfMercy.

How and when did we go elsewhere after driving the snarky/jmo wagon?

Technically I don't think your vote ever left ChurchOfMercy, but, while voting CoM, you were not pushing them above all others at the time. You were doing the above, with jmo's slot. Then after SnarkySnowman came in, you suddenly abandoned all other efforts to push that one wagon through above all others.

Since you're such a specialist in telling us apart, you should recognize that 796 is nacho and 797 is me.

If I was a specialist in telling you apart, I wouldn't have needed the 'if' quantifier for your posting, now, would I? Never claimed I was. Tammy's style of play is fairly distinctive. Nacho's style of play is fairly distinctive. But in a hydra, you're a Venn diagram. Some posts are definitely one head, some definitely the other, the rest are ambiguous. I suppose the better a person knows you, the smaller the overlap is, but I'm definitely not in that group.

[Ranger]

I've tried being nice. I've tried it several times through my career.

Oh, hey, there's the answer for why I'm the common mislynch!

Our reads are almost always the same, yet I get lynched and you get nightkilled and this is probably why!

Of course, being nice generally requires me not being in a foul mood.

This particular game is cancer and I very much regret replacing into it.

[Killthestory]

I spit the truth, but I guess that's a former language for y'all.

[Ranger]

1396 does look town from Imperium, so I

am

, in a sense, willing to hug it out.

[Virtue]

Hi. I'm an alt. Disclosing that now since I know some players hate them.

[Virtue]

Spoiler: Thoughts until post 300

35 OceanWind looks rather townie in his push here.

49 Nosferatu is far too aggressive for the situation. Personal circumstance or scum.

54 Agree with Lowell on Magna being a townread at this point. Yet, I don't like Lowell saying Magna can be annoying in the same post. It undercuts his townread.

62 I like jmo's vote on Lowell here.

69 I don't get KTS's vote here at all.

77 That's town Klingon. I am rather surprised Klingon is doing the posting here given Lowell's open invitation to murder newbies. That does not make sense. Of course, I am reading this knowing the slot is town at the outset so that may color my views.

88 Not a fan of this by KTS. He says that he'll death tunnel OceanWind if OceanWind does not got him. The push is abandoned without resolution in a "look at me" kind of way.

94 This again looks like Lowell taking an easy townread. Ohh you pointed out your traditional scum behavior, must be town. Lowell being this simplistic at this point is really starting to bother me.

97 I like 97 by Ollie. He thinks he has found an inconsistency and is pushing on it.

98-99Nosferatu seems more focused on "winning a battle" than sorting.

102 This look like theatre. How were these two sorting each other by engaging in a semantic debate and recommending how to reply in the future?

106 This reads like posturing from KTS. He's acting hyperaware of his town meta and complaining about not getting votes. If he only naturally gets pressured as town and cannot draw votes to himself to match, the likelihood of KTS being scum goes up.

132 Nosferatu has crap for reads and vote progression (unless Nosferatu is voting Ollie and I missed it). The Lowell read is tentative and Nosferatu is doing nothing to engage it. The rest just feel like obligatory names of people drawing attention outside of them.

143 I am not sure I agree with all of OceanWind's reads but we're picking up largely the same things but drawing different conclusions. The Nosferatu read looks like stubborn equals town though which is just logically bad. Some players are notoriously stubborn as scum.

144 Unless Nosferatu is an alt, I don't see how he has the experience to make that conclusion.

149 That's obvtown Ollie.

157 That's terrible posting from Lowell. You're trying to persuade people who disagree on your read when the slot has no content, I will call you scum for pressuring that. Don't think so. Theatre isn't content. He doesn't even check to see who Ollie is voting before lashing out and Lowell usually isn't careless.

187 KTS posting on this page makes me want to put a noose around his neck.

I'm commenting on less posts specifically or this will take all day.

I like Magna's push on Acryon.

213 I like this post by Imperium. We did see the behavior from KTS slot and interpreted it differently. I think we're at similar places but I lean scum with a possibility of town rather than the other way.

228 KTS wagoning himself is all about self meta. Yet, when JMO uses it, it's scummy? Rope now.

Klingoncelt is right about KainTepes 's scum meta. Was CoM lynched by scum for being right? I'd put some comments in here about ABR doing nothing but sinking his partner but those thoughts would just be the type my mother said to keep to myself.

293 ABR decides to play. He has Imperium as scum (huh?) KTS (get that one) and a secret scum read. Well that better be Kain otherwise you aren't even trying to sync up.

[Killthestory]

virtue sucks, literally don't even listen to his posts

[Killthestory]

in fact, he just reinforced my later scumread on bella.

[Imperium]

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

Snarky why is this derailing kts?

Kts was/is acting like he's gods gift to the game.

There was no derailing but a refusal to bus here.

Huh, this was from my iPad. I imagine the last line meant to say a refusal to budge here.

[Nosferatu]

yeah I don't have experience with lowell. Especially not because of the game I just finished with him.

[Virtue]

One game is not enough experience to determine if someone loves to do something in most instances. So are you an alt?

[Virtue]

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

Snarky why is this derailing kts?

Kts was/is acting like he's gods gift to the game.

There was no derailing but a refusal to bus here.

Huh, this was from my iPad. I imagine the last line meant to say a refusal to budge here.

Imperium, talk to meere. I know I am nowhere near caught up, but I want my own interactions to sort with.

Do you think KTS is arrogant town or scum?

Why do you think ABR scumread you?

Why are you voting the jmo slot? It looks really town to me so far.

[Nosferatu]

One game is not enough experience to determine if someone loves to do something in most instances. So are you an alt?

no. I have an unfinished game with him too, but I can't go into that.

[Killthestory]

im clearly town

[Imperium]

I also made the same exact argument concerning your knowledge of BB and that I believed you were an alt and that's how I was reading you and your reaction to your partner.

In Mafiaception, I did have meta on BBMolla: Blitz 2. I was scum, yes. I was exaggerating, yes. I was also not lying.

You ignore that I clearly said that you were displaying knowledge you wouldn't have as a new player to claim that I asked you to talk about ongoing games, which I never did.

Except yes you are. You're saying I have knowledge I wouldn't have as a new player. I gained that knowledge through ongoing games. So, by making the accusation that I gained it through other means, yes you were. Because the only way I can answer truthfully is to say that it comes from ongoing games.

That you actually tried to claim I was trying to get you modkilled shows how much reaching bullshit you're putting into the game.

Who's writing words onto me now? I never said you were trying to get me modkilled. I said that you were deliberately making an argument I could not defend against without breaking rules. (Which probably would not result in a modkill.) It's something I don't see you, or ANY town player, do as town, but it IS something I've seen scum do. Multiple times in fact! Scum have tried to force rulebreaking or punishment of rulebreaking which town do not.

Um not this is you continuing to be obtuse as you're trying to assign some deliberate nefariousness to something which isn't. Since, in another game, mafiaception, I've already pointed out the alt thing (as did multiple other people in that game) and that I was reading you as that alt and talking about how your approach and read was in relation to the alt thing, it's well established. I mentioned it in the post you responded to. You've acknowledged that people have pointed out that they believe you're an alt.

If you want to keep claiming you're not an alt, that's fine, but my intention was very obvious. All you had to say was "I'm not an alt, people think I am but I'm not. I've read some of his games and I think I understand what type of player type he is." Simple as that. It reads to me as you going overboard trying to cover up your slip and you trying to make me look scummy in the process.

By the way, I don't think of Red Coyote or Titus at all being player types similar to Magna. Like at all. Anyway this is not a productive line of discussion. Anyone could look at the conversation and see that I was talking about you being an alt not trying to get you to talk about ongoing games, and I think it's more productive if you try to actually discuss our scum motivations in what we did yesterday.

Point out that little stuff here and there why don't you?

The summary is already there in 1308. The little stuff all ties back to the SnarkySnowman issue. Most of your play revolves around SnarkySnowman's slot.

How is being noncommittal about a snowman lynch mean we're scum?

Yeah, this question really answers itself.

What do we gain out of it in the event he flips scum?

I don't know. (Skipping the next one since that takes time to show.)

How does Snarky make up a signficant majority of our iso?

Everything you're doing is basically going back to SnarkySnowman. Your interactions with me, your interactions with RadiantCowbells, your reads on other players, most of it revolves around SnarkySnowman.

Flesh this out please. Yesterday, I'd say the majority of our iso is about CoM as they were who we were trying to get lynched.

The question really doesn't answer for itself. We're voting Snarky while saying we're not sure about him but yeah he's probably scum. Other than the jmo stuff that we didn't like, we have absolutely no idea how to read Snarky. I read through his iso of a few games last night and I have no idea how to read him. (I think I might have a couple ideas based on partner interaction after looking at a scum game but without that I have no clue.) What are we doing? You think we're scum, what are we doing? What do we have to gain or lose?

My interactions with you over Snarky is because you're trying to claim we're scum for our treatment to him. Our interaction with RC about Snarky is because he has a very strong scum read there. Our reads on other players don't have anything to do with Snarky? I have him as a probable scum read due to his predecessor and am listening to RC there, but none of my other reads have anything to do with Snarky.

Well maybe a part of my read on you is due to Snarky but that's how you are trying to tie us to Snarky without seeing if it actually makes sense, so this just looks like hot air.

Try to answer the question.

I don't know. It's something I'd expect Nacho to do. I don't know his mind well enough to guess. Testing the waters. Thinking he can get away with it. I could go on all day figuring out potential reasons, but I wouldn't know which of them would apply or not.

What experience with Nacho has led you to believe that he would behave in this way on day one? Because as we've been in a state of disbelief over your accusations, he's been just as incredulous as I am. What games has he done this in? I mean if you're going to call us scum for this you have to be able to answer why you think we'd do this.

And before you keep just going oh I don't know he's nacho, you have to remember that we are in a hydra. Yes, Nacho will push limits, but to what we did yesterday? If partnered with Snarky? And the entire scum team is vanilla? I don't see it. But any type of recklessness that Nacho might have in his scum game would automatically be tempered in a hydra with me. And I'm the one who started hard pushing CoM yesterday, that was me. I'm the one who was about to flip a table if I didn't get my lynch, that was me. He was posting too and he was very clearly wanting it as well, but a large part of that was me.

That would mean that we considered the rest of our team mates expendable and would want to keep ourselves under the best light possible, which would mean not shooting ourselves in the foot day one.

And there's plenty of material where you call SnarkySnowman('s slot) suspicious and plenty of material where you call Lowell suspicious if I recall correctly, so if my scumteam theory is correct you could in fact get away with it interactions-wise.

No, Lowell's been a decentish town read for us. I did think of him as a potential busser for CoM, but Nacho had him as town and today I posted about why I thought he was town.

[Killthestory]

i could see an imperium and lowell scumteam if i truly think about it

since you know, imperium is hard defending lowell who is scummy as fuck