Open 634: Sharing is Caring (Game Over)

[Persivul]

Cakez, what's your position on busing?

[SirCakez]

I'll push on buddies all the time (see Borderlands where I scumread my buddy Beeboy basically the whole game) but I don't like actually pushing them through to a lynch. It's stupid to kill off buddies for "towncred" when you could work more on building rapport with town and getting mislynches instead.
Plus bussing makes it much harder to win in endgame.

[chilledtea]

Waiting for input from anen at the moment. I want to take this day as deep as possible with as much conversation as possible.

[Persivul]

Check out the Kuroi lynch. Cakez just voted (interestingly with an Ugh instead of an Urgh), while I was beginning to interact with her. She was lynched in less than 12 hours.

[SirCakez]

I didn't expect Blacle to quick hammer and I don't think anyone else did either.
The fact you're trying to use the ugh/,urgh thing as some sort of scum-indicative thing is terribly scummy.

[Persivul]

Regarding persivul, didn't like him calling anen "a good player" it is not known whether anen is town/scum so calling anen a good player implies that pers knows anen's alignment. I am not sure if I am reading too deeply into this.

I'd say you're reading too deeply into it. In my experience, Anen is good at reading people - a good player - so if I'm reading him as town, then sheeping him was a reasonable strategy when I didn't have time to look closely at lynch candidates.

The main thing that concerned me about Anen at this point was...why is he still alive? The problem with a good player being obvtown is that: if town, they tend to get NK'd well before endgame; if scum, the question arises - why haven't you been NK'd yet? In this case, PRs have been killed the last three nights, so it makes sense that Anen's still alive.

Personally, I can play as obvtown, but I don't do it as town because: as noted above, it leads to early NKs; and, by nature I sometimes just like to post off the top of my head, which leads to some slop which isn't obvtown, but it takes too much thought to avoid it. So, I don't take NKs, but the downside is that I get in the position I'm in now - convincing people I'm town after a game that wasn't obvtown.

[Persivul]

I didn't expect Blacle to quick hammer and I don't think anyone else did either.

I didn't vote. TBH I probably would have voted Kuroi eventually, but we had a whole phase to work with.

You didn't expect a quick hammer...well, what did you expect when you made a vote without explanation and made no attempt to pressure or question her?

The fact you're trying to use the ugh/,urgh thing as some sort of scum-indicative thing is terribly scummy.

Why? People behave differently as scum than as town. That's the basis of this game. Part of that is posting style, including word choice. As scum, you already know the answer. But, you know that you shouldn't know the answer. So, you add an Urgh in to make it appear you're unsure of yourself. It's probably a subconscious thing. You likely didn't know you were doing it until I pointed it out.

[SirCakez]

Because Blacle couldn't have quickhammered by himself at L-2? Max was the one to put Kuroi to L-1 and we all know Max's flip.

I say ugh/argh/etc as both alignments all the time. I could go dig up quotes of it but it would be a waste of time.

[chilledtea]

Sir Cakes was town reading wgeurtz on day 1. What made him switch his vote to wgeurtz when masquerade claimed JK on day 2?

[SirCakez]

Because wgeurts started trying to lynch Blacle, the confirmed Vig, and then disappeared for all of Day 2

[chilledtea]

Reasonable answer. I can see this is not going to be easy.

[Aneninen]

Reading soon.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Blacle

I'm really sick of people declaring themselves conftown, even if they're joking.

VOTE: Kuroi

VOTE: texcat

No JK should def be protecting the confirmed town lol

We can't keep him alive long enough to make a difference, unless you're proposing we don't use any of our actions for cop investigations. We just protect one wild conftown every night and gain no new information from our PRs.

VOTE: wgeurts

Maxous. Wgeurts is the only one who pushed for my lynch and it was indeed a terrible push. I honestly don't know how I got to L-1. Perhaps its a matter of insecurity that lead those people to be lead astray. I have to come realize that being sure of yourself in this game tends to bother some individuals.
I'm picking up what your putting down. However, I happen to think that Wgeurts is actually scum and tried to push a scum myslynch on what appeared to be a weak player(me). I think your vote would be better on Wgeurts than anything else. Wgeurts flip will give you more traction for your push on Texcat if he flips town, and it wont damage your traction if Wgeurts flips scum.
Do you agree?

D1 scum generally don't lead a lynch wagon right from the start. They wait to see how things develop and help push a wagon that's already started. If you're right that he's the only one who pushed you, that's townie for D1.

VOTE: texcat

VOTE: Masquerade

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Just ran across this from gurts in the discussion forum:

People should stop trying to act townie intentionally as town, due to that a meta can form with "how town should act" which scum players of a certain level can easily replicate as their scum-game. People should just play as they do naturally. That way people are forced to look genuine as scum which is harder and not just meet a set of standards.

Why aren't you following your own advice? You expect people to do certain things you consider townie even if they don't feel like doing it naturally.

VOTE: wgeurts

BW is now conftown. It's doubtful his entire wagon is town. The BW L-1 is at post 226. The texcat is at 318. That's way too fast, so there's most likely scum on there too. The two wagons have Alex and Kain in common. Alex had scum read both BW and texcat as early as 120, so his presence isn't troubling. Kain's first and only reference to texcat was the vote.
VOTE: KainTepes

Also BW if you shoot me, we policy lynch you and then the town loses you are solely responsible. If you want to win don't be an idiot.

Fear mongering. Suggesting a PL on a PR. What would professor guerts say about such play? Pretty sure he'd call it scummy.

VOTE: wgeurts

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Like to compare
Here's Persivul's voting history day 1
Guy went literally everywhere but the kitchen sink with his votes, including voting all three PRs and both mislynches of Day 2/3 at some point.

[Persivul]

First, the site has spoiler tags for a reason.

Guy went literally everywhere but the kitchen sink with his votes, including voting all three PRs and both mislynches of Day 2/3 at some point.

Guilty as charged! Town is motivated to go literally everywhere early in the game to form reads. Scum don't have that motivation, which is why voteparking is considered scummy.

[Aneninen]

(1) Re-examining the VCA

We can see that Shotty was sitting on the Persivul-wagon for a long time. I still don't know why that wagon stopped. It may have been a cross-bussing [if so, scums picked Shotty instead of Persivul because a Framer is worth less than a Rolecop?] or it may have been a real counter. SirCakez was the starter of the Shotty-wagon, on the other hand. If he's scum this was a terrible strategy – unless he was afraid of leaving the wagon. Basically, Day1 could go in either way.

Day2 still tells me that SirCakez can't be scum. (Remember the pairing I posted before.) In 735 there were two wagons and both of them were on Kuroi. By 856 both of them jumped on Wgeurts – but both of these wagons were on town! It was an unnecessary move to jump on the other wagon for

both of them

; Wgeurts would have been lynched without any of them anyway.

As for Day3, I still think Persivul looks worse. What if he was intentionally away from the Kuroi-wagon? He posted early-Day3 but did nothing afterwards. He may have done so (being absent) for town credit.

Day4's hammer from Persivul is another thing which looks scummy. At that point it was obvious that Maxous would be lynched, he may have thought being absent would look worse than hammering. I mean, Maxous was voting for me, but both SirCakez and Clumsy was not voting. If a Clumsy-wagon had been emerged he would obviously have voted for Maxous.
Also, because of no Daychat for Mafia, it's possible that Persivul wanted to end the Day before Maxous would post something silly.

________

I'm going on with some ISO-s soon.

[Persivul]

I say ugh/argh/etc as both alignments all the time.

In my search you say Urgh only as scum (again I omitted marathon games but believe I checked the rest in your history). I just chacked several games for Argh and couldn't find any, town or scum. Ugh isn't easily searchable as it turns up though, enough, etc. and so returns too many hits.

I could go dig up quotes of it but it would be a waste of time.

It would settle the issue. That's not a waste of time. Past games aren't cleanly laid out for us, and I admittedly skipped over marathon games. I believe I was pretty thorough (another ugh word), but I may have missed something.

[SirCakez]

Guilty as charged! Town is motivated to go literally everywhere early in the game to form reads. Scum don't have that motivation, which is why voteparking is considered scummy.

No, it reads to me like trying to force a wagon through anywhere you can before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

[SirCakez]

I'll go quote digging later -_-

[Persivul]

(1) Re-examining the VCA

We can see that Shotty was sitting on the Persivul-wagon for a long time. I still don't know why that wagon stopped. It may have been a cross-bussing [if so, scums picked Shotty instead of Persivul because a Framer is worth less than a Rolecop?] or it may have been a real counter. SirCakez was the starter of the Shotty-wagon, on the other hand. If he's scum this was a terrible strategy – unless he was afraid of leaving the wagon. Basically, Day1 could go in either way.

Day2 still tells me that SirCakez can't be scum. (Remember the pairing I posted before.) In 735 there were two wagons and both of them were on Kuroi. By 856 both of them jumped on Wgeurts – but both of these wagons were on town! It was an unnecessary move to jump on the other wagon for

both of them

; Wgeurts would have been lynched without any of them anyway.

I had started a PBPA on Cakez, but when looking at my own ISO, most of the points on Cakez also applied to me, so I dropped it. So, I can get what you're saying here. But...

As for Day3, I still think Persivul looks worse. What if he was intentionally away from the Kuroi-wagon? He posted early-Day3 but did nothing afterwards. He may have done so (being absent) for town credit.

WTF? I posted early D3 but did nothing afterwards

because D3 only lasted 11 hours due to a lynch including Maxous and Cakez

. You're clearly confbiasing me with this point.

Further, as scum I would rather be sure of the lynch then get towncred for being off it. Check out this scum game which just finished:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65750

I was on every lynch. Check out D4 specifically. The lynch took less than two days, and a scum buddy and myself were the last two people on it. For me, lynching trumps town cred.

Also note that on D3 I had a distancing vote on a buddy but changed it late in phase to get a no lynch. Busing isn't my thing.

Day4's hammer from Persivul is another thing which looks scummy.

Double WTF. There was an L-1 wagon which included a conftown and my two strongest town reads...

and he flipped scum

. That looks

scummy

to you? Again, you're confbiasing at this point.

[Persivul]

No, it reads to me like trying to force a wagon through anywhere you can

In my experience, scum don't try to force wagons through anywhere they can on D1. They apply minimal pressure and wait to see what develops.

before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

Again, it's ridiculous - in general, and for my scum game specifically - to theorize that I'm scum who needed a counter wagon...

and I went to a scum buddy for the CW

. CWs to scum are town. I was the CW to shotty, who was scum. That makes me town.

[Aneninen]

Persivul.

Naked votes in 132 and 181.

233 is horrible:

"I thought that was implied, but FTR, intent to hammer. Personally I think the guy is town trying to play too tricksy, but at this point he's going to be a distraction for as long as he's here, and his flip will help analysis. Absent a claim he needs to go."

(About Blade) – Typical rolefishing and terrible reasoning. 237 is just as bad. Calling a Vig negative utility and persuading him NOT to shoot? WTF!

His interaction with Shotty: 247, 286. Sounds fabricated.

303, when he was asked about his vote for Texcat, he answered:

"Bad vibes and I like the wagon so far."

. Then moving to Masquerade in 341, another naked vote.

Voting for Shotty in 355 (naked, but check out the previous post too! From SirCakez!) 404 may have been coaching (knowing there's no Daychat and at that point he was voting for Shotty).

Then voting for Wgeurts in 417. Knowing Wgeurts was town, his developing scumread on Wgeurts looks artificial. In 437 he voted for KainThraddash, then back to Wgeurts in 467. (Trying to find a wagon which gains momentum?) Then back to Shotty in 500. (He called KainThraddash and Wgeurts his partners in the previous post. But still, I don't think it was necessary as scum.)

________

On Day2 he voted for Wgeurts in 637 but jumped on Masquerade in 651 (check out the reasoning there too!!!). More claim-forcing?

Back to Wgeurts in 694.

Uhhhhhhh, 710!!!

And, ChilledTea, 726 !!!!!!!!!!!!

In 851 he actually dis-credited Masquerade's thoughts. Even if those thoughts were about me, he seemed to have been right! And Persivul didn't want to stop the Wgeurts-lynch...

Day3 consists of two empty posts.

________

1000 is WTF, 1003 is about townreading me and sheeping Ranger and me.

1005 might be a "soft-case" about Maxous, 1007 is a townread on SirCakez. He may have planned framing Clumsy Today... a pity that he was Vig-Shot, lol. 1029 may confirm this. (Also, self-meta.)

1030

"Unfortunately those crumbs were obvious enough that it cost texcat her life, but yeah, at least we have one nearly conftown."

– erm, there's a Mafia Rolecop and we've talked about it somewhere. This is not the first case when he acts as if he didn't know the Setup. (There was a post about Mafia having Daychat, eg.)

1037

"Yeah, if Anen metadives me I'm confident he'll conclude I'm not scum."

– WTF.

1055 – I don't know whether there's an expression for that, something like "pedestalling"... but I don't think I'm a particularly good player. By "pedestalling" I mean the style of the post.

________

TL;DR – there are quite a lot of things telling me that Persivul is scum. But I want to ISO SirCakez too.

[Aneninen]

Post-edit.
I'm not conf-biasing. I assume a scummy motivation behind every single thing I can find one.
The same will happen as I ISO SirCakez.

[SirCakez]

No, it reads to me like trying to force a wagon through anywhere you can

In my experience, scum don't try to force wagons through anywhere they can on D1. They apply minimal pressure and wait to see what develops.

before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

Again, it's ridiculous - in general, and for my scum game specifically - to theorize that I'm scum who needed a counter wagon...

and I went to a scum buddy for the CW

. CWs to scum are town. I was the CW to shotty, who was scum. That makes me town.

And you sure were putting minimal pressure down with those naked votes everywhere

I went over this earlier. Shotty was clearly going down within a day or two, you were still savable, no other wagon was viable when you were the leading wagon. Makes the most sense to start bussing there. This is supported by your complete lack of pushing Shotty before (aside from your "flip off wgeurts" vote).

[Persivul]

Persivul.

Naked votes in 132 and 181.

233 is horrible: "I thought that was implied, but FTR, intent to hammer. Personally I think the guy is town trying to play too tricksy, but at this point he's going to be a distraction for as long as he's here, and his flip will help analysis. Absent a claim he needs to go." (About Blade) – Typical rolefishing and terrible reasoning.

If I'm scum, I'm a rolecop, and wouldn't need to rolefish.

237 is just as bad. Calling a Vig negative utility and persuading him NOT to shoot? WTF!

Our vig has killed 1 town and 0 scum. IIRC it would have been two town if our JK hadn't needed to waste a shot blocking our own vig. Yes, vigs are negative utility. Even this late in the game, and wielded by Ranger, a good player, it resulted in a town kill. If I drew vig in this setup I would just view it as a means to conftown myself if necessary by claiming, and nothing more than that.

His interaction with Shotty: 247, 286. Sounds fabricated.

303, when he was asked about his vote for Texcat, he answered: "Bad vibes and I like the wagon so far.". Then moving to Masquerade in 341, another naked vote.

Voting for Shotty in 355 (naked, but check out the previous post too! From SirCakez!) 404 may have been coaching (knowing there's no Daychat and at that point he was voting for Shotty).

I'm both coaching shotty and busing him?

[Persivul]

No, it reads to me like

trying to force a wagon through

anywhere you can

In my experience, scum don't try to force wagons through anywhere they can on D1. They apply minimal pressure and wait to see what develops.

before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

Again, it's ridiculous - in general, and for my scum game specifically - to theorize that I'm scum who needed a counter wagon...

and I went to a scum buddy for the CW

. CWs to scum are town. I was the CW to shotty, who was scum. That makes me town.

And you sure were

putting minimal pressure down

with those naked votes everywhere

I went over this earlier. Shotty was clearly going down within a day or two, you were still savable, no other wagon was viable when you were the leading wagon. Makes the most sense to start bussing there. This is supported by your complete lack of pushing Shotty before (aside from your "flip off wgeurts" vote).

Trying to force a wagon through

and

putting minimal pressure down

are clearly contradictory. You're now just trying to sell any narrative that comes to mind.