Newbie 1706: Cocktail party GAME OVER

[LaserVP]

This should be interesting. Starting a game from the beginning for once.

It seems from reading my first game and the start of this game that it's customary to vote people for stupid reasons. I don't get why, but I'll join in.

So I'm going to VOTE: alban because I want to be first on the alive list

Why are you joining in if you don't get why?

Thanks for the link SirCakez. I'll have to search back through my old newbie games to find my old IC Post.

In your first game, did they do random votes? Did you just go along with it like nothing was wrong, or did you stop and think "why are they doing this?". I'm assuming you thought for a bit, but if you didn't...congrats, we have two different personalities. Have a cookie.

But anyways, That's what I did. I just type exactly what I think. I dont go back for grammatical mistakes.

Also, I had a terrible IC in my first game, be better. He went for the cheap win, and not actually teaching people how to play.

How much overall mafia experience does everyone have, and how much on this site?

I just finished my first game overall fairly recently.

Played almost a full game here. Replaced in for someone like 3/4 of the way in Day 1. I have a lot of experience in EpicMafia (a year and half of playing almost everyday, like 5000 games. It's chat based so the games are like 15 minutes to an hour depending on the setup.) I hold the unofficial award for best insults.

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE: singersinger
VOTE: JaeReed

The bolded below is approval-seeking, which I find questionable at any stage of the game, but particularly on page 1.

Yeah I love me some attention

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you? Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

[JaeReed]

Also, I had a terrible IC in my first game, be better. He went for the cheap win, and not actually teaching people how to play.

How much overall mafia experience does everyone have, and how much on this site?

I just finished my first game overall fairly recently.

Played almost a full game here. Replaced in for someone like 3/4 of the way in Day 1. I have a lot of experience in EpicMafia (a year and half of playing almost everyday, like 5000 games. It's chat based so the games are like 15 minutes to an hour depending on the setup.) I hold the unofficial award for best insults.

Your first IC drew scum, too? Q.Q Ours was good, though, in my opinion. I'm sorry you felt yours didn't provide the help you needed. How are you settling in with the longer time limits?

With regards to singer's question to you about RVS, why do you believe she asked that?

[Xisiqomelir]

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you?

Approval-seeking is questionable in any sort of game because town is sincere in its beliefs. As such, town is generally unconcerned with how their actions might be perceived. Conversely, scum must pay attention to the appearances of their posts in an attempt to fabricate "genuine" reactions from contrived ones.

Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

In order:

1) Small wagons are immaterial and

2) If you are going to cite self-meta I would appreciate the convenience of a link.

I don't want to pip singer, so I will only make a brief point about this. My personal style of scumhunting is to keep an eye out for the (non)production of pro-town content. By "pro-town content" I mean clear, coherent posts explaining who the scum are and encouraging votes on them. This is hard to consistently feign over the course of a game. Good Town will generally create it, and non-Town will generally create other sorts of content, particularly evasions and equivocations.

[JaeReed]

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you?

Approval-seeking is questionable in any sort of game because town is sincere in its beliefs. As such, town is generally unconcerned with how their actions might be perceived. Conversely, scum must pay attention to the appearances of their posts in an attempt to fabricate "genuine" reactions from contrived ones.

Sure, but asking if you're doing something right in a newbie I don't believe is being particularly concerned with appearances. More checking that you're doing it correctly. I just feel the other reasons to scumread what I said were more valid than the point you picked up on. Everyone scumhunts differently though, so I'm just nitpicking here.

Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

In order:

1) Small wagons are immaterial and

2) If you are going to cite self-meta I would appreciate the convenience of a link.

I don't want to pip singer, so I will only make a brief point about this. My personal style of scumhunting is to keep an eye out for the (non)production of pro-town content. By "pro-town content" I mean clear, coherent posts explaining who the scum are and encouraging votes on them. This is hard to consistently feign over the course of a game. Good Town will generally create it, and non-Town will generally create other sorts of content, particularly evasions and equivocations.

1) Fair, and I agree on this point at this time in the game as it wasn't a true wagon. If someone had put him to L1 I probably would have pressured them but I don't think even that would necessarily be scummy so much as a dangerous move since VIs can hammer.

2) Exact post where I participated in RVS in my previous game. If you want to ISO me there that's fine. I was town that game, but focused a lot on theory since I'd just read the wiki & a few games and had no prior experience. I wanted a town win badly, and probably went overboard. There was a lot of wall posting which I was told later on by a replacement not to do. I've been trying to follow her advice, and apologize if I do wall still.

On a side note I'm not sure I'm a fan of RVS. We had an L1 announced as L2 in my first newbie because kage didn't check that there were no RVS votes on the person we wagon'ed. There were inactives that never unvoted after RVS finished and we just kind of..forgot about that.

[JaeReed]

Mmm and on the note of above since pressuring anyone that puts him at L1 now won't be effective after saying it'd just be pressure, I'm gonna remove my RVS. I *think* we're out of it now.

UNVOTE: tank

[SirCakez]

How much overall mafia experience does everyone have, and how much on this site?

I just finished my first game overall fairly recently.

I have probably at least 50+ Forum Mafia games completed, a mix of games here and off site.

Xisqo - do you think Jae's approval seeking could have come from town?

[Robert E Me]

How much overall mafia experience does everyone have, and how much on this site?

I've played about 5-10 forum mafia games. This is my second on this site.

[LaserVP]

Your first IC drew scum, too? Q.Q Ours was good, though, in my opinion. I'm sorry you felt yours didn't provide the help you needed. How are you settling in with the longer time limits?

With regards to singer's question to you about RVS, why do you believe she asked that?

Let's see, I found the people in last game to be over analytical of everything because of the longer time periods, but still use meta 101 to lynch people. I went on my gut, and people scumread me for it. Yet, I only got lynched after jailer outted he jailed me with a role blocker and a bp alive. Despite the fact the bp hard tr'd me from day 1, he immediately became the biggest supporter for my lynch.

People are also one-dimensional and do not like change from the norm. Maybe when I get out of the newbie game, I could find a place where I can use actual tactician moves to win, instead of a formula. I could get away with so much stuff in chat that are impulse and win games. I was called "anti-town, but no scum intention" at least 10 times in my first game here.

Also, bulletproofs not being told they no longer have a vest bothers me so much.



And in regards to the second question, I'm assuming she asked to get actual content flowing. We can't stay like this forever.

Going to UNVOTE: alban

[singersigner]

Not sure I agree with this random vote stage philosophy, but hey, let's hop on board. VOTE: Xisiqolemir

What don't you agree with, exactly?

If you don't agree with it, why did you do it anyway?

[lucca261]

How much overall mafia experience does everyone have, and how much on this site?

I just finished my first game overall fairly recently.

I played mafia on some other sites, but only a few times. It's my first game on here, but i read some old games.

Yeah I love me some attention

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you? Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

So, you have just one game finished, right. And then, on the smallest amount of pressure, you talk about your self-meta. Self-meta of only one game. Self-meta that no asked for. Self-meta of a game that you were town.

That concerns me. It seems to me that you provided that self-meta to be able to say: "In my last game, i was town and did this. This game i did this too, so i must be town." This is strange. Also i did like that you puts tank at L-2, but i like that less when you point to everybody, and then changes your vote.

VOTE: JaeReed

[Radja]

Day 1, VC 2

JaeReed (2)

-

Xisiqomelir, lucca261

Xisiqomelir (2)

-

SirCakez, datanksta1213

datanksta1213 (1)

-

Robert E Me

alban (1)

-

singersigner

Not Voting (3)

-

alban, JaeReed, LaserVP

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch! Deadline is on May 18th at 08:00 AM(GMT+1) or in (expired on 2016-05-18 08:00:00).

Mod Notes - N/A

[JaeReed]

Yeah I love me some attention

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you? Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

So, you have just one game finished, right. And then, on the smallest amount of pressure, you talk about your self-meta. Self-meta of only one game. Self-meta that no asked for. Self-meta of a game that you were town.

That concerns me. It seems to me that you provided that self-meta to be able to say: "In my last game, i was town and did this. This game i did this too, so i must be town." This is strange. Also i did like that you puts tank at L-2, but i like that less when you point to everybody, and then changes your vote.

VOTE: JaeReed

Actually I self meta'd a point that was basically me asking "why didn't you scumread me for clearly knowing what I was doing?" Don't see what that had to do with me saying I'm town this game because of it. If anything it would point to being scum going for cheap newb credz. I didn't really count that as pressure, since the case was weird. I would have counted it as pressure for one of the two reasons I mentioned in the post you quoted.

I provided the link to the game since I was asked, and pretty much explicitly said I'd be trying to play differently this game. How did I point to everybody? How did I say my play this game and last game would be similar? I didn't. I said I'd be trying to take on board criticism of my last game, though.

Getting wall-ey again so I'll cut it short there. I find your logic here questionable, but I'm not sure if that's just me not following your line of thought fully. Will make a decision once I get a response.

[lucca261]

JaeReed, on #37: Actually I self meta'd a point that was basically me asking "why didn't you scumread me for clearly knowing what I was doing?" Don't see what that had to do with me saying I'm town this game because of it. If anything it would point to being scum going for cheap newb credz. I didn't really count that as pressure, since the case was weird. I would have counted it as pressure for one of the two reasons I mentioned in the post you quoted.

Let's go over the basics again, right? In #24 it's the first mention of this. Xisi votes you because you were seeking approval with your vote, and he finds it questionable. I have no issue with you on this point, as I don't find this questionable like him. But then, on #26 you post this:

UNVOTE: singersinger
VOTE: JaeReed

The bolded below is approval-seeking, which I find questionable at any stage of the game, but particularly on page 1.

Yeah I love me some attention

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you? Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

The part that I don't like is the part where you say that you played other game, participated in other RVS, so the thing that Xisi found scummy (That you were seeking approval) is not actually scummy. You don't actually uses these words, but when you say "I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?", you actually are saying that seeking approval is nonconsequential, and that, since you played before, asked it on other game that you were town, it makes no sense that you would do it again.

I provided the link to the game since I was asked, and pretty much explicitly said I'd be trying to play differently this game. How did I point to everybody? How did I say my play this game and last game would be similar? I didn't. I said I'd be trying to take on board criticism of my last game, though.

You didn't say your play was going to be similar and stuff, but you point to another game in that you asked a question that's not equal to the thing that happened on this game, but it's a similar question. A game in which you were Town. So, in my mind, maybe you were setting up something like: "Oh, he was town and asked a question about RVS, so he must be Town this game too"

Getting wall-ey again so I'll cut it short there. I find your logic here questionable, but I'm not sure if that's just me not following your line of thought fully. Will make a decision once I get a response.

I myself find my logic questionable, but since is so early on the game, and most of the posts are either talking about experience on the game, which is null, or a random vote, we don't have a lot of material to scumhunt. So, in that case, I was trying to see your reaction being pressured.

In that case, I actually liked your reaction. Even if the case that I made against you is not the strongest one, and was pretty easy to answer, I get your points and maybe what I think it was scummy wasn't actually scummy, I will unvote for now, because I think, so early in the game, that getting on a back-and-forth with you, it would prevent me seeing other options, maybe even making me tunnel. So,

UNVOTE: JaeReed

[alban]

Will write down my thoughts tonight.

[Xisiqomelir]

Why is approval seeking in a newbie game an issue for you?

Approval-seeking is questionable in any sort of game because town is sincere in its beliefs. As such, town is generally unconcerned with how their actions might be perceived. Conversely, scum must pay attention to the appearances of their posts in an attempt to fabricate "genuine" reactions from contrived ones.

Sure, but asking if you're doing something right in a newbie I don't believe is being particularly concerned with appearances. More checking that you're doing it correctly. I just feel the other reasons to scumread what I said were more valid than the point you picked up on. Everyone scumhunts differently though, so I'm just nitpicking here.

Noted. I'm not moving my vote yet, however.

Why did you find that more of an issue than the fact that I put him at L2, or that I played a game before where I participated in RVS and as such should know whether I'm doing it right or not?

In order:

1) Small wagons are immaterial and

2) If you are going to cite self-meta I would appreciate the convenience of a link.

I don't want to pip singer, so I will only make a brief point about this. My personal style of scumhunting is to keep an eye out for the (non)production of pro-town content. By "pro-town content" I mean clear, coherent posts explaining who the scum are and encouraging votes on them. This is hard to consistently feign over the course of a game. Good Town will generally create it, and non-Town will generally create other sorts of content, particularly evasions and equivocations.

1) Fair, and I agree on this point at this time in the game as it wasn't a true wagon. If someone had put him to L1 I probably would have pressured them but I don't think even that would necessarily be scummy so much as a dangerous move since VIs can hammer.

2) Exact post where I participated in RVS in my previous game. If you want to ISO me there that's fine. I was town that game, but focused a lot on theory since I'd just read the wiki & a few games and had no prior experience. I wanted a town win badly, and probably went overboard. There was a lot of wall posting which I was told later on by a replacement not to do. I've been trying to follow her advice, and apologize if I do wall still.

On a side note I'm not sure I'm a fan of RVS. We had an L1 announced as L2 in my first newbie because kage didn't check that there were no RVS votes on the person we wagon'ed. There were inactives that never unvoted after RVS finished and we just kind of..forgot about that.

Looking at this meta does contribute somewhat to your defense.

RVS is, in general, superior to RQS, which usually does not yield worthwhile information in the early game. See Voyager Mafia as a direct example of the contrasting utility of the two styles.

[Xisiqomelir]

Xisqo - do you think Jae's approval seeking could have come from town?

That is certainly possible. I don't feel he's getting near confscum yet.

[Xisiqomelir]

I like lucca for town in #35.

[JaeReed]

RVS is, in general, superior to RQS, which usually does not yield worthwhile information in the early game. See Voyager Mafia as a direct example of the contrasting utility of the two styles.

I'll elaborate here - I think RVS is useful for starting the game, but I feel like it's risky because people forget things or don't check what they're doing. I haven't done RQS yet but I really feel like that would be worthless.

I guess I'd rather an RVS without the actual votes being placed. Maybe like FoS or something instead. Though that may not work because there's no real pressure or risk of lynches for no reason making people nervous. I don't really have a solution, I guess, I just wanted to express the dislike in case someone else had anything better to use in later games.

[SirCakez]

Xisqo - do you think Jae's approval seeking could have come from town?

That is certainly possible. I don't feel he's getting near confscum yet.

All right sounded like you were over-sure of yourself

Laser and Lucas, why not put a new vote down when you unvoted? Your vote is your biggest weapon, you should be using it to pressure someone.

[LaserVP]

Laser and Lucas, why not put a new vote down when you unvoted? Your vote is your biggest weapon, you should be using it to pressure someone.

Because if everyone is doing a random vote, everyone knows that they are doing it for no particular reason. We still really aren't out of the RVS (half us are in, half are out).

With that logic, anyone I try to vote wouldn't and shouldn't be affected. It's not like I outted a read yet. They would know it's a pressuring technique without any real substance and be able to react normally. As maf or town. It's not alignment telling.

Heck, I could be at L-1 right now and not care. I know I'm not getting hammered unless someone actually brings up any evidence.

Right now, the only thing we have is the debate on Jae's approval seeking for anyone (which by the way, think she reacted pretty good on. Didn't really find it scummy to begin with). We literally have a person who took 2 days to get here just to basically say he wasn't dead. We have another 2 who voted on the first day and haven't shown up since. With little to go on, a vote here would be useless because anyone I vote will know it's not a real read.


To conclude- The RVS definition was a little bit off than I thought. You guys actually try to formulate reads off blind guesses instead of using them to be icebreakers.

[singersigner]

I'm sorry guys, this game started with terrible timing for me. I'm going to be on V/LA (vacation / limited access) until Tuesday since I'm out of town with family for my BiL's graduation. Also introducing tiny human to ~20 new family members...wish me luck!

[SirCakez]

Laser and Lucas, why not put a new vote down when you unvoted? Your vote is your biggest weapon, you should be using it to pressure someone.

Because if everyone is doing a random vote, everyone knows that they are doing it for no particular reason. We still really aren't out of the RVS (half us are in, half are out).

With that logic, anyone I try to vote wouldn't and shouldn't be affected. It's not like I outted a read yet. They would know it's a pressuring technique without any real substance and be able to react normally. As maf or town. It's not alignment telling.

Heck, I could be at L-1 right now and not care. I know I'm not getting hammered unless someone actually brings up any evidence.

Right now, the only thing we have is the debate on Jae's approval seeking for anyone (which by the way, think she reacted pretty good on. Didn't really find it scummy to begin with). We literally have a person who took 2 days to get here just to basically say he wasn't dead. We have another 2 who voted on the first day and haven't shown up since. With little to go on, a vote here would be useless because anyone I vote will know it's not a real read.


To conclude- The RVS definition was a little bit off than I thought. You guys actually try to formulate reads off blind guesses instead of using them to be icebreakers.

This isn't true though.
All reactions are telling, whether they know it's pressure or not. For example, if a scum knows they are being pressured without reason they might try to play it off and ignore it. That can be analyzed.

[LaserVP]

It's the internet, you can fake reactions.

[Robert E Me]

Jae, so why did you seek approval if you had participated in RVS before then?

Looking at this meta does contribute somewhat to your defense.

How does it do so? I don't quite see it.

It's the internet, you can fake reactions.

It's kind of the point of this game to analyze people and reactions over the internet, isn't it?