Newbie 1713 (Game Over)

[arak-and-skhug]

Also how has Adam not been replaced yet? It's ridiculous that we are on page 5 and a whole slot hasn't posted one word yet. Once that last slot is in play it could change everything.

[arak-and-skhug]

Nice posting about page 5 on page 6. Good job Arak.

It's hard not to agree with someone else's point if they are valid. Not much has happened in the game so far, and there has been little room for subtlety or reading between the lines, just by lack of content, so most people will be having the same train of thought. Yes, I am a cautious player, and after seeing someone else with more experience agree with my gut feelings, I found it prudent to point out that I feel the same as them. Reaching a consensus isn't necessarily "empty" or sheeping.

And yes, I wanted to see what your defense is when people wonder about something you did (the prior defensiveness). Every reaction in mafia leads to new questions, so seeing a reaction to a reaction to a reaction, so to say, can be useful. I don't see how me changing my vote after I heard what you have to say is suspicious? All you did was make me feel comfortable that the pressure had done what I wanted it to, so I moved the little pressure I can create onto someone else, someone who had promised to post soon after catching up. And why would I take my vote off a wagon, that, as you say "has solid reasoning behind it"? If I was scum, knew for sure you were town, wouldn't I want to keep the wagon as long as possible? I don't understand how any of that makes me suspicious. All I'm doing is trying to cause as much conversation as possible, because information helps the Town.

If I seem flippant, then I suppose I could seem that way. This is my first game, so there's not much certainty for me, and combined with the fact we're so early in the game and know next to nothing, it can lead to some spontaneous decisions. Shots in the dark, and such.

I want to call back to this post for a second as well. It reads like you don't have your facts straight about who you are. One second you call yourself a cautious player, the next you say your flippant and spontaneous. Also no, most people DON'T have the same train of though naturally, and while scum's ultimate goal is to lynch town, scum doesn't want to get caught being obviously on a town wagon. There's plenty of reasons for you as scum to have left my wagon. Also, saying "why would I have done that as scum?" is a flawed argument because I can just respond with "why wouldn't you have done that as scum?" For all I know, you could have "done that" with the single intention of later saying "why would I have done that?" Makes sense? It doesn't work for me. Anyway, later on after this you cite fluff and contradiction as scumtells, and here's fluff and contradiction in your very own posts.

[Charloux]

@Huntress: Is it common for newbies to use fluff as a scum tell, or do you think i'm on to something?

Not just newbies, older players use it too. A bit of fluff is fine, but sometimes it can be a sign of active lurking, which

is

a scum tell. The question is whether it was a valid criticism at the time it was made. What do you think?

It's stuck in my head that she is just using reads from others, so i think she did the same with Wirt's comment on fluff.

That question is no different than the others i made. And i can't ask that last question anybody else since i need experience backing it up. It will greatly influence my read on Fox.

Why should my opinion influence your read on Fox? It looks like you're trying to pass the responsibility for your read off on to me.

I don't trust people, i trust their circumstances at the given time; It's not that i am passing the responsibility i am just using your experience to get a better read since i don't see a reason you would lie except if you two were partners. 9*8= 1 in 72 chance of you being partners and the chance of you lying are even lower.

[Charloux]

Also how has Adam not been replaced yet? It's ridiculous that we are on page 5 and a whole slot hasn't posted one word yet. Once that last slot is in play it could change everything.

He was in VLA until 31.5.2016. so i think he will post within 24 hours or get replaced.

[Alexcellent]

@Huntress, are you fully caught up? Can you explain this vote:

More later today but for now:

Vote: Foxbird

Any other thoughts on the game? Care to share some reads?

[Foxbird]

@ Foxbird:

Re: 51:
1) How does voting someone who just arrived and is reading up get you information?
2) What do you see as the difference between your vote on arak and SirCakez's vote on him?

1) It's not much, but I figured it was just a small extension of RVS, and something for him to react to. I was starting to townread Arak, so I didn't see the point in keeping my vote there. I understand by now that that looked weird to people, but I can't change that now. Take it as you will.
2) I don't think there's that much difference. We gave the same reasons about Arak's defensiveness, he was second on the wagon, I was third. You could argue I was sheeping a bit. The only real difference I can see is that I had an RVS vote on Alex before that, and for him it was his opening vote? Not sure what you're trying to find out here.

I want to call back to this post for a second as well. It reads like you don't have your facts straight about who you are. One second you call yourself a cautious player, the next you say your flippant and spontaneous. Also no, most people DON'T have the same train of though naturally, and while scum's ultimate goal is to lynch town, scum doesn't want to get caught being obviously on a town wagon. There's plenty of reasons for you as scum to have left my wagon. Also, saying "why would I have done that as scum?" is a flawed argument because I can just respond with "why wouldn't you have done that as scum?" For all I know, you could have "done that" with the single intention of later saying "why would I have done that?" Makes sense? It doesn't work for me. Anyway, later on after this you cite fluff and contradiction as scumtells, and here's fluff and contradiction in your very own posts.

I don't think being cautious and being flippant/spontaneous are necessarily contradictory. There's different kinds of caution, and truth be told, this game is making me way more anxious than I thought, so I tend to panic and make rash decisions because I'm not sure what to do. That's also the reason I tend to sheep sometimes, though I am trying hard to make my own opinions and stand for them. If you scumread me for that, that's fine, and if you townread me, that's of course also fine. I also don't want anyone to soften their votes and opinions on me just because I'm anxious. I'm not scum, but I

am

messing up.
And yeah we can argue about what I would or wouldn't have done as scum or as town (is that what WIFOM is?), so there's little sense in going back and forth like that. Just keep what I said in mind until we get some flips.

Anyway:

I'm still reading Inspector as "newb town", so I'm not willing to join the wagon just yet.
It's worth thinking about, though: If he flips town, who do we think the scum are? And if he flips scum, who's his partner? This post is already long enough and I gotta go do RL stuff so I don't have the time to read everything over for the interactions. I'll save my thoughts on that for later.

[inspectorscout]

Wirt my first thought was fake townslip too, it just seemed to obvious, but I'm going pretty much purely on gut for that one.

The thing I really don't like is this apathetic self deprication thing going on...it's not consistent, and mostly seems to crop up when Inspector is being criticized. His helping Foxbird wasn't just a throwaway answer about game mechanics, he guided her to improve her entire image. and in 113 he forgets his "image" and calls out and corrects Cakez for not paying attention, Inspector is clearly focused enough on this game that he doesn't need to constantly claim otherwise

I still think Foxbird is scum but I'm going to go ahead and jump over here for now
VOTE: inspectorscout

If you actually are being genuine about half-assing this game maybe now you'll have motivation to play fully.

Actually i was wrong; Wirt posted only 7 hours after me. It seemed longer to me though. Then, since when is trying to help someone paying close attention to a game? And lol, im not that stupid. If i really wanted to make it look like a townslip, i would have not corrected myself at all, but i would have let you guys correct me on it, so thats just bs.
And why would a vote on me give me motivation (which i dont need, ill get to this game at my own pace) to play?

oh and, i assume this is a scumread. So, you scumread me for not paying close attention but still trying to make my points clear? Thats pretty meh, id even like a policy lynch more than that.

[Huntress]

Also how has Adam not been replaced yet? It's ridiculous that we are on page 5 and a whole slot hasn't posted one word yet. Once that last slot is in play it could change everything.

He was in VLA until 31.5.2016. so i think he will post within 24 hours or get replaced.

Judging by his last login time, over a week ago, Adam can't have even picked up his role PM. It's usual to give a player 48 hours to respond when they're taken from the queue as a replacement so I suspect he'll be replaced by a volunteer as soon as the mod gets back from V/LA.

Not just newbies, older players use it too. A bit of fluff is fine, but sometimes it can be a sign of active lurking, which

is

a scum tell. The question is whether it was a valid criticism at the time it was made. What do you think?

It's stuck in my head that she is just using reads from others, so i think she did the same with Wirt's comment on fluff.

Actually, Foxbird was the first one to refer to fluff in this thread, and she gave her read on you before anyone else had done so. And I think you didn't answer my question there.

I don't trust people, i trust their circumstances at the given time; It's not that i am passing the responsibility i am just using your experience to get a better read since i don't see a reason you would lie except if you two were partners. 9*8= 1 in 72 chance of you being partners and the chance of you lying are even lower.

I've looked through your ISO and it looks one one big fencesit. Like you're an observer, not a partaker. One example of this is your comment in 72 on arak's case on Fox in 52: You say you like it but you don't act on it, just saying that it "should be remembered for later when we analyze everything".

@Huntress, are you fully caught up? Can you explain this vote:

More later today but for now:

Vote: Foxbird

Caught up but not had time to put all my thoughts into words yet. That vote was partly a gut read and partly to see how Fox and others would react to it.

Care to share some reads?

Current scum reads are Charloux, Foxbird and Inspector.

2) I don't think there's that much difference. We gave the same reasons about Arak's defensiveness, he was second on the wagon, I was third. You could argue I was sheeping a bit. The only real difference I can see is that I had an RVS vote on Alex before that, and for him it was his opening vote? Not sure what you're trying to find out here.

You said in 51 that you had noted it, and that it was worth keeping an eye on. Why did you think this if it was hardly any different from your own vote?

Vote: Charloux

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm back! Thanks for watching this game for me, Anti. <3

Seeking a replacement for adamdf101.

[TellTaleHeart]

Vote Count 1.5

SirCakez [2] - Wirt, inspectorscout
Charloux [2] - Foxbird, Huntress
inspectorscout [3] - SirCakez, Alexcellent, arak-and-skhug

Not Voting: adamdf101, Charloux

5 to lynch
Deadline is in (expired on 2016-06-10 13:20:09)

[inspectorscout]

o wow im at L-2

[Alexcellent]

Wirt my first thought was fake townslip too, it just seemed to obvious, but I'm going pretty much purely on gut for that one.

The thing I really don't like is this apathetic self deprication thing going on...it's not consistent, and mostly seems to crop up when Inspector is being criticized. His helping Foxbird wasn't just a throwaway answer about game mechanics, he guided her to improve her entire image. and in 113 he forgets his "image" and calls out and corrects Cakez for not paying attention, Inspector is clearly focused enough on this game that he doesn't need to constantly claim otherwise

I still think Foxbird is scum but I'm going to go ahead and jump over here for now
VOTE: inspectorscout

If you actually are being genuine about half-assing this game maybe now you'll have motivation to play fully.

Also, I had forgotten about the late random vote-and-unvote failed discussion starter which I had found weird at the time. Of course it was on Foxbird!

Do you think Inspector is scummier than Foxbird?

[Foxbird]

2) I don't think there's that much difference. We gave the same reasons about Arak's defensiveness, he was second on the wagon, I was third. You could argue I was sheeping a bit. The only real difference I can see is that I had an RVS vote on Alex before that, and for him it was his opening vote? Not sure what you're trying to find out here.

You said in 51 that you had noted it, and that it was worth keeping an eye on. Why did you think this if it was hardly any different from your own vote?

Wait.. I just checked back because I was confused by my own reaction there and I must have derped somewhere when reading the post numbers - he was third on the wagon, not me. That

does

make his hop-on a lot more convenient, and that's probably what past me was referring to, trying to see whether he would continue hopping onto existing wagons in easy ways. So far, I'd say he hasn't, he was actually the one to start the Inspector wagon. I'm still null on him, though. Maybe the readlist he announced in 112 will help get me a better opinion.

[arak-and-skhug]

Wirt my first thought was fake townslip too, it just seemed to obvious, but I'm going pretty much purely on gut for that one.

The thing I really don't like is this apathetic self deprication thing going on...it's not consistent, and mostly seems to crop up when Inspector is being criticized. His helping Foxbird wasn't just a throwaway answer about game mechanics, he guided her to improve her entire image. and in 113 he forgets his "image" and calls out and corrects Cakez for not paying attention, Inspector is clearly focused enough on this game that he doesn't need to constantly claim otherwise

I still think Foxbird is scum but I'm going to go ahead and jump over here for now
VOTE: inspectorscout

If you actually are being genuine about half-assing this game maybe now you'll have motivation to play fully.

Also, I had forgotten about the late random vote-and-unvote failed discussion starter which I had found weird at the time. Of course it was on Foxbird!

Do you think Inspector is scummier than Foxbird?

It's not important who's scummier between two people when we still have two scum to find. Alex a lot of your posts consist of quoting posts that say a lot and then barely responding with anything heavy, either asking a softball question or making a vague statement. I don't like it. I'm gonna go back over you once I get home from work this evening.

[Alexcellent]

Wirt my first thought was fake townslip too, it just seemed to obvious, but I'm going pretty much purely on gut for that one.

The thing I really don't like is this apathetic self deprication thing going on...it's not consistent, and mostly seems to crop up when Inspector is being criticized. His helping Foxbird wasn't just a throwaway answer about game mechanics, he guided her to improve her entire image. and in 113 he forgets his "image" and calls out and corrects Cakez for not paying attention, Inspector is clearly focused enough on this game that he doesn't need to constantly claim otherwise

I still think Foxbird is scum but I'm going to go ahead and jump over here for now
VOTE: inspectorscout

If you actually are being genuine about half-assing this game maybe now you'll have motivation to play fully.

Also, I had forgotten about the late random vote-and-unvote failed discussion starter which I had found weird at the time. Of course it was on Foxbird!

Do you think Inspector is scummier than Foxbird?

It's not important who's scummier between two people when we still have two scum to find.

If you find one to be scummier than the other, then it raises questions as to why you wouldn't vote them. We can't lynch both scum in one day. I find it weird that you've been scumreading Foxbird all day long, but now you've gone and dropped a vote on Inspector as a wagon has started forming on him. And you're very much dodging this question.

Alex a lot of your posts consist of quoting posts that say a lot and then barely responding with anything heavy, either asking a softball question or making a vague statement. I don't like it. I'm gonna go back over you once I get home from work this evening.

Sounds good! I've made several posts over the last day or so - many of which were directed at you. Looking forward to your catch up.

[arak-and-skhug]

So Alex try to pretend you're town for a second. Is it better for me to be alone with my vote on Foxbird? Or with two others on Inspector? Does it really matter which one I think is a little bit more scummier? No. Do I have a numerical value system that I can use to assign scum points? No. It doesn't work that way. I think they're both scummy. If we had to lynch right here right now I'd be happy with either one. So think about it and tell me why it's important for me to answer your question. Except you already answered it, we can't lynch both scum in one day and I'm perfectly willing to compromise if it still means someone I scum read is lynched at the end of the day. This is just Alex thinking he can make himself look town by asking inconsequential questions and looking busy.

Hint for you: I'm perfectly capable of stating which one I think is scummier and I don't think any town player here cares what that answer is, really. I'm holding back on answering not because I'm afraid of revealing my deep dark secrets, but because I'm opposed right now to what your doing in this game and I want everyone to be aware of it.

Prove me wrong by telling me what critical information you were hoping to gain by this question. How would you have reacted if I said I think Foxbird's scummier? How would you have reacted if I said Inspector's scummier? Give me something insightful enough and I'll drop it.

[Charloux]

Not just newbies, older players use it too. A bit of fluff is fine, but sometimes it can be a sign of active lurking, which

is

a scum tell. The question is whether it was a valid criticism at the time it was made. What do you think?

Sorry i thought you wanted me to answer my own question. Fluff itself can be a good read on people's personality, but it's NAI. The only exception is if there is a lot of fluff but NO game-related posts. And i didn't even look who posted about fluff first, so it's my mistake there.

I don't trust people, i trust their circumstances at the given time; It's not that i am passing the responsibility i am just using your experience to get a better read since i don't see a reason you would lie except if you two were partners. 9*8= 1 in 72 chance of you being partners and the chance of you lying are even lower.

I've looked through your ISO and it looks one one big fencesit. Like you're an observer, not a partaker. One example of this is your comment in 72 on arak's case on Fox in 52: You say you like it but you don't act on it, just saying that it "should be remembered for later when we analyze everything".

Guess i'm busted . Yes i am currently acting as an observer and am looking into each persons personalities. Most of my questions so far were for the purpose of this and scum hunting came in second. I am aware that i will be viewed as scummy because of this, but it's just how i decided to play this game.

[Alexcellent]

So Alex try to pretend you're town for a second. Is it better for me to be alone with my vote on Foxbird? Or with two others on Inspector? Does it really matter which one I think is a little bit more scummier? No. Do I have a numerical value system that I can use to assign scum points? No. It doesn't work that way. I think they're both scummy. If we had to lynch right here right now I'd be happy with either one. So think about it and tell me why it's important for me to answer your question. Except you already answered it, we can't lynch both scum in one day and I'm perfectly willing to compromise if it still means someone I scum read is lynched at the end of the day. This is just Alex thinking he can make himself look town by asking inconsequential questions and looking busy.

Hint for you: I'm perfectly capable of stating which one I think is scummier and I don't think any town player here cares what that answer is, really. I'm holding back on answering not because I'm afraid of revealing my deep dark secrets, but because I'm opposed right now to what your doing in this game and I want everyone to be aware of it.

Prove me wrong by telling me what critical information you were hoping to gain by this question. How would you have reacted if I said I think Foxbird's scummier? How would you have reacted if I said Inspector's scummier? Give me something insightful enough and I'll drop it.

I don't know why you didn't just say this in the first place rather than dance around the question. Going to take a gander at your meta probs tomorrow to see if you're normally this defensive.

If you said "I think Foxbird's scummier" then I would've asked why you're voting Inspector. If you said "I think Inspector's scummier" then I would've asked for reasons why.

May I please have your reads, Arak?

[arak-and-skhug]

Actually I'm not being defensive in this case because I have nothing to defend! You keep trying to make this about me and my response when it's actually to be about you and your empty, busy question. Funny that you choose "defensive" as your go-to word because it's been proven to have gotten votes on me earlier in the game and thus is a safe choice for a scum fabrication.

You didn't answer part of my post. Is it better for a town player to be with a lone vote on someone all by him or herself, or on a wagon with two others. Both targets seem scummy. What would you do?

Also you want my reads on everyone? I'll go ahead and say I'm pretty sure we'll find at least one scum somewhere within you, Cakez, Foxbird, and Inspector, and I'm most confident in the towniness of Wirt and (perhaps surprisingly) Huntress. Charloux, I find decent enough but I haven't gotten around to scrutinizing him to deeply.

[Wirt]

yeah they were posted close after each other because i remembered it when i read my own post

See, that really doesn't help to lift my suspicions. "Derpclearing", AKA faking a townslip, is not something uncommon. In fact it's quite regular in other sites (e.g SC2), or at least I've heard elsewhere. What are you trying to say here? That you simply can't think too long over the posts you make? How did you have to post before reading what you typed, when you could've just previewed?

Weird is not scummy. Weird is just weird. Also, I dont believe in people constantly asking others for 'advice'. it could just be trying to pull away attention or trying not to have to give reads

So weird is not scummy, got it. And yet... you consider the act scummy, regardless, despite just saying it is not, and use it to solidify your scumread. Which doesn't make sense- it's not scummy, or is it now?
Further, does this also mean expecting discussion development by asking questions (and thus abstaining from attempting to develop discussion from your own end) is necessarily scummy?
And now, to get a little side-tracked by a tangent:

Charloux:

you are SE yet you constantly ask huntress for her opinion. weird.

Your earlier stuff is just fillers, too. Later on you kinda quote the whole thread which is totally not needed, seems like filling up. In both walls u wrote down, you still didnt say that much about what you think. nullscum

The read itself is kinda questionable as well. The passing comment about filler, I refer back to my comparison of both Alex and Charloux. The quoting part is kind of an stretch-- actually, if this is reason to scumread, Alex should be WORSE, seeing as he makes multiple posts instead of a single one, which you could argue is an attempt to boost ISO count (I'm not arguing this, for the record)-- again, not a lot of sense. The last part is...less questionable, actually. Do you think you can follow up on that and dissect 72?

why? im playing several other games at the moment and im just not feeling this one. That doesnt mean that i cant explain basic rules to someone

It's more of like how you've been encouraging Foxbird to engage at their scumreads, but haven't done much of that yourself. The closest to that is 104.
Do note though, the "I'm in a lot of games!" card is about as worth as the "I'm a new player!" card.


Also when you reply to this post, try to not answer inside a quote. That just makes things a bit messy.

[Wirt]

o wow im at L-2

[SirCakez]

I was replaced in too, sadly. and still, wirt was way later. you seem the one not paying close attention. and i did not defend a nullscum from being voted; my opinion changed already,a s explained in post 104.

Ah I misinterpreted. You didn't indicate your "nullscum read" changing at all from what I saw though.

Perhaps my view on Inspector is biased because he helped me. I just feel like he's genuinely trying to be a good Townie and struggling a bit like I am, I guess? I'm not getting that vibe from Charloux or Cakez, so I suppose we just disagree there, Arak.

I think this could be a scumbuddy defending another. The way Fox describes Inspector sounds like trying to get him out of trouble without any real reason to be townreading him.

I'm still reading Inspector as "newb town", so I'm not willing to join the wagon just yet.
It's worth thinking about, though: If he flips town, who do we think the scum are? And if he flips scum, who's his partner? This post is already long enough and I gotta go do RL stuff so I don't have the time to read everything over for the interactions. I'll save my thoughts on that for later.

Why are you reading him as newb town?
What do you hope to gain from all of these questions?

o wow im at L-2

Any other comment from the peanut gallery?

Alex a lot of your posts consist of quoting posts that say a lot and then barely responding with anything heavy, either asking a softball question or making a vague statement. I don't like it. I'm gonna go back over you once I get home from work this evening.

I actually think this is a towntell for Alex. I have a lot of experience with his town game and this is how he usually goes about scumhunting. Heck I play like that as town too occasionally.

[Foxbird]

@Cakez: It was a gutread mixed with the stuff I mentioned in my 70, but people have been bringing up good points about his play. I'm scanning the thread right now for any interactions around him that are of interest. Still not willing to join the wagon just yet. If he flips scum, it looks reeeally bad for me anyway, so jumping it now when I still have him somewhat townread (even though it's shakier now) is pointless (and could allow for a quickhammer, e.g. if Adam's replacement joins in and lolhammers before we can get a final defense/claim).
_ _ _

Spoiler: Thoughts on Inspector Interactions

So, aside from the fact that, if he flips scum, I'm pretty boned, I found the following:

1. In 60, he defends Arak against Cakez, and I think someone already pointed out that that came pretty rapidly after he was suspecting him, too? Can't find that post right now, but the interaction in question happens from 50 to 60. I also forgot about the "majestic bailout" compliment-thingie in 68 from Arak TO Inspector. I don't think Arak complimented anyone else since then, so why the sudden buddying? Inspector is also reading Arak as "nulltown" according to his readlist. Not sure how telling that is. Might also be worth noting that Arak is third on the wagon, if we want to eventually get into wagon meta.
2. Wirt said something about 'mindmelding' with Inspector in 61, but I don't think that counts as buddying. Other than that, they're on the same wagon, but it started like thirty posts before the Inspector one gained momentum. Wirt is "nulltown" in Inspector's readlist. Wirt is questioning him pretty hard, though (120 and 144).
3. Nullread on Alex and me (for lack of Alex' posts at the time and me getting newbie leniency).
4. Scumreads are Cakez (on whose wagon he is) and Charloux.
For reference, last Inspector readlist was 94.

If Inspector flips scum, I'm seeing a potential partner in Arak. Could also consider Charloux or even Adam's slot (I really hope they start posting soon).
If he flips town, it's worth looking at the later slots of the wagon. I should look into some wagon meta..

What do you hope to gain from all of these questions?

I just think it's an interesting train of thought. I know I'm not the scumpartner, so I want to know what other potential reads people have. Knowing people's follow-ups (or Plan Bs) helps immensely in analyzing the situation post-flip. The only risk is maybe giving the Mafia too much info on who to NK to make people suspicious of each other, but I don't think they benefit as much as the Town does.

[TellTaleHeart]

Chip Butty replaces adam.

[arak-and-skhug]

Welcome Chip Butty! Can't wait to hear your thoughts!

And apparently I need to clarify.

This post:

If on the off chance that Inspector & Foxbird are the scumteam, that was a MAJESTIC bailout by the Inspector himself.

Cakez, you never answered my question in 45

I'll rephrase it. Basically your original reason for voting me was my (admittedly-potentially-irrational-but-that's-irrelevant-to-this-question) fear of a mislynch on Alex. Why is that a scumtell worthy of a vote?

was not me buddying to Inspector. Nor was it was a compliment. Subtlety is apparently lost on some. This post was pointing out the buddying between Inspector & Foxbird. Did anyone else think that was a genuine compliment other then Inspector? (and Foxbird following Inspector's lead) I know sarcasm doesn't always translate into text but I thought that was pretty clear. Like I literally called him potential scum in that post, in what world is that buddying!