Newbie 1713 (Game Over)

[arak-and-skhug]

I might not get around to doing a post by post on Alex if Foxbird and Inspector keep being this scummy together and distracting me.

(Also Cakez comment on his meta adds to it but I was already getting a feeling that me vs. him was town vs. town and I'm just being stubborn and trying to prove my point. At the moment there's two lynch candidates head and shoulders above Alex in my opinion)

[arak-and-skhug]

actually let me just end things with Alex by answering his stupid question.

I THINK FOXBIRD IS SCUMMIER THEN INSPECTOR BUT I THINK INSPECTOR IS MORE LIKELY TO GET LYNCHED AND I THINK HE'S ALMOST JUST AS SCUMMY SO YALLA I'M ON THAT WAGON

happy?

[Chip Butty]

Also how has Adam not been replaced yet? It's ridiculous that we are on page 5 and a whole slot hasn't posted one word yet. Once that last slot is in play it could change everything.

Hi everyone, I'm the new Adam. Not much to read through but I have some other stuff I need to do first, so reads coming maybe about six hours from now.

[TellTaleHeart]

Vote Count 1.6

SirCakez [2] - Wirt, inspectorscout
Charloux [2] - Foxbird, Huntress
inspectorscout [3] - SirCakez, Alexcellent, arak-and-skhug

Not Voting: Chip Butty, Charloux

5 to lynch
Deadline is in (expired on 2016-06-10 13:20:09)

[Alexcellent]

Actually I'm not being defensive in this case because I have nothing to defend! You keep trying to make this about me and my response when it's actually to be about you and your empty, busy question. Funny that you choose "defensive" as your go-to word because it's been proven to have gotten votes on me earlier in the game and thus is a safe choice for a scum fabrication.

I mean, I asked you a simple question, you danced around it, then you responded in 140 throwing out accusations of me being scum. It seems like a pretty defensive way to answer a very easy question. But it's at least consistent with how you started the day.

You didn't answer part of my post. Is it better for a town player to be with a lone vote on someone all by him or herself, or on a wagon with two others. Both targets seem scummy. What would you do?

It's fine if you're going for the easier lynch that you're scum reading, I just wanted clarification from you that you were voting for the lesser of the two scum in your eyes.

Also you want my reads on everyone? I'll go ahead and say I'm pretty sure we'll find at least one scum somewhere within you, Cakez, Foxbird, and Inspector, and I'm most confident in the towniness of Wirt and (perhaps surprisingly) Huntress. Charloux, I find decent enough but I haven't gotten around to scrutinizing him to deeply.

What is the town read on Huntress based on?

actually let me just end things with Alex by answering his stupid question.

I THINK FOXBIRD IS SCUMMIER THEN INSPECTOR BUT I THINK INSPECTOR IS MORE LIKELY TO GET LYNCHED AND I THINK HE'S ALMOST JUST AS SCUMMY SO YALLA I'M ON THAT WAGON

happy?

Yes. My god this was like pulling teeth.

[Alexcellent]

Also how has Adam not been replaced yet? It's ridiculous that we are on page 5 and a whole slot hasn't posted one word yet. Once that last slot is in play it could change everything.

Hi everyone, I'm the new Adam. Not much to read through but I have some other stuff I need to do first, so reads coming maybe about six hours from now.

Welcome aboard!

[Alexcellent]

I don't trust people, i trust their circumstances at the given time; It's not that i am passing the responsibility i am just using your experience to get a better read since i don't see a reason you would lie except if you two were partners. 9*8= 1 in 72 chance of you being partners and the chance of you lying are even lower.

I've looked through your ISO and it looks one one big fencesit. Like you're an observer, not a partaker. One example of this is your comment in 72 on arak's case on Fox in 52: You say you like it but you don't act on it, just saying that it "should be remembered for later when we analyze everything".

Guess i'm busted . Yes i am currently acting as an observer and am looking into each persons personalities. Most of my questions so far were for the purpose of this and scum hunting came in second. I am aware that i will be viewed as scummy because of this, but it's just how i decided to play this game.

What have you found so far with looking at our personalities? Do you have any opinion on who you think scum might be?

[inspectorscout]

See, that really doesn't help to lift my suspicions. "Derpclearing", AKA faking a townslip, is not something uncommon. In fact it's quite regular in other sites (e.g SC2), or at least I've heard elsewhere. What are you trying to say here? That you simply can't think too long over the posts you make? How did you have to post before reading what you typed, when you could've just previewed?

I dont preview stuff lol

So weird is not scummy, got it. And yet... you consider the act scummy, regardless, despite just saying it is not, and use it to solidify your scumread. Which doesn't make sense- it's not scummy, or is it now?
Further, does this also mean expecting discussion development by asking questions (and thus abstaining from attempting to develop discussion from your own end) is necessarily scummy?

Weird is not scummy until you already think someone is scummy. Then it just makes your scumread stronger. I dont know how i can explain it otherwise.
No, asking questions is fine. Not giving your own opinions and asking others: "what do u think?", however, isnt. As i said, it looks like distraction to me.

The read itself is kinda questionable as well. The passing comment about filler, I refer back to my comparison of both Alex and Charloux. The quoting part is kind of an stretch-- actually, if this is reason to scumread, Alex should be WORSE, seeing as he makes multiple posts instead of a single one, which you could argue is an attempt to boost ISO count (I'm not arguing this, for the record)-- again, not a lot of sense. The last part is...less questionable, actually. Do you think you can follow up on that and dissect 72?

I think it would be a waste of time, but sure. Ill do that later today

It's more of like how you've been encouraging Foxbird to engage at their scumreads, but haven't done much of that yourself. The closest to that is 104.
Do note though, the "I'm in a lot of games!" card is about as worth as the "I'm a new player!" card.

Well i have both am i rich now?
seriously, if that bothers you...

[arak-and-skhug]

Alex why do you think I reacted like I I did initially?

If you still think your question was so bone-crushingly hard-hitting and it just rattled me so much that I was forced to be defensive, you have zero reading comprehension. and then off you go again pooping out a new worthless post for every post you see. Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

All I'm saying is that if your scum what your doing makes sense. And if your town it doesn't. Because right now for me it's just the equivalent of someone making a lot of noise. If you could have understood why I responded like I did I would have an easier time believing you're town but you're pulling teeth comment applies that you apparently still don't get it.

[Alexcellent]

Alex why do you think I reacted like I I did initially?

Beats the hell out of me.

If you still think your question was so bone-crushingly hard-hitting and it just rattled me so much that I was forced to be defensive, you have zero reading comprehension. and then off you go again pooping out a new worthless post for every post you see. Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

Point to where I felt my question was so "bone-crushingly hard-hitting". I asked you a simple question and you flipped out. The question wasn't a big deal but you completely blew it out of proportion.
I felt the need to be friendly and welcome someone to the game. Why does it bother you so much?

All I'm saying is that if your scum what your doing makes sense. And if your town it doesn't. Because right now for me it's just the equivalent of someone making a lot of noise. If you could have understood why I responded like I did I would have an easier time believing you're town but you're pulling teeth comment applies that you apparently still don't get it.

We clearly have two different playstyles. Although it feels an awful lot like you're trying to discredit what I say.

[Chip Butty]

So how much experience do all new players have with mafia? Played much before offsite or is MafiaScum basically it so far?

Two games at another site; One completed game here at MS (Newbie 1704), and one in progress.

[arak-and-skhug]

Okay doing an ISO now because Alex still bothers me. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag so that everyone doesn't get a head ache from quotes on quotes on quotes., this is basically a run through of every time he does this quote + one question thing and how much he accomplishes by doing it.

Spoiler: Alex ISO Part One

So how much experience do all new players have with mafia? Played much before offsite or is MafiaScum basically it so far?

Only Foxbird answers this question that was asked to everyone, Alex doesn't follow up on it in any way.

I feel like a bad guy here... Sorry Alex, i just heard wagons were good to get the game going.
@Arak: you are being too paranoid, i don't think a page 1 lynch happens that often; maybe 1 in 1000 games?

I forgive you

What changed for you between this game and your previous completed newbie games? You seemed opposed to RVS voting early in those games. Just the hearing about wagons thing?

Charloux answers this question, Alex again doesn't follow up on it in any way or ever mention his meta on Charloux again.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

You seem nervous about this wagon. Do you really think scum would expose themselves like that?

I'm getting a slight scum-vibe from this post.

Vote: Arak

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

Town won that so you'd like scum to win this one?

Okay Huntress go ahead and take us out of RVS before everyone's even gotten here.
UNVOTE: ashley

1) In regards to the Alex wagon being a mistake: I've looked around in other newbie games and crazier things have happened. No, it's not likely that Alex would get lynched, but what good comes out of wagoning like that? Did we really gain any information from having a wagon on Alex? A RVS wagon doesn't do much of anything, people feel no pressure when there's no reasoning behind the votes. If Alex WAS scum he can just shrug and say oh well they're voting me because of my name, and then he doesn't have to defend himself and we're denied any information that would come of it.

2) Town won my last game so I want scum to win this one? What? Either you didn't think this one through all the way or you're making a low-energy effort to paint a throwaway statement as a tell. I said I lost last one so I want to win this one. Pretty sure motivation to win is an alignment neutral trait, but if you're going to try to erroneously generalize at least do it accurately. Scum LOST my last game so I want town to win this one. Because I was scum last game and town this game. And both games I want/wanted to win. Do I need to simplify more?

I do find this post to be pretty defensive for fairly little reason.
Why did you remove your RVS vote?

I didn't realize you weren't being serious and I didn't realize I overreacted.

And yes while it's true that we're gaining information, we're only gaining it on 3-4 players. Half the town didn't participate in RVS. And I don't know how critical or not that is but it seems to me like a bad idea because scum can hide in all those holes. Of course the game needs to progress and we have to do something but we just need to be mindful of who hasn't had a chance to post yet and how it's easy to hone in for good or for bad on more active players.

Also Charloux, what does it mean to be overly honest? Does town have any reason to be anything less then honest?

This sort of checks out in some ways but it's also very early to be anxious about this sort of thing. Do you think it would be bad if scum missed out on RVS?

Okay so here Alex picks one post and quotes it just to say its defensive. A few posts later he'll say defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Ok so that was a wase of time. As for the questions you ask in the post, let me prove my point by answering them. Why did I unvote? RVS is over. Is it bad if scum missed out on RVS? It's not good. But it's not critical. It's just a little less information for the town. These are such no-risk no-reward questions. Nothing about my alignment is revealed by answering them, but more noteworthy, nothing is revealed about Alex's alignment by asking them. He's hiding.

Post 27 is fluff
Post 28 is fluff

What i think is that arak is def on my nullscum list for that reaction, but not more than that. Flailing isnt necessarily a scum thing; dont forget this is a newbie game, we (yes im a newb too) tend to stress a lot when they are suspected, regardless of alignment.
Im keeping my rvs vote tho, ill let huntress continue their discussion, id love to see what foxbird has to say

Yeah agreed. Defensiveness isn't necessarily a scum tell here. But it's worth noting how he reacts under pressure.

Okay a few quick thoughts cause i just worked all night and need to sleep.

1) L-2s make me uncomfortable. L-1s even more so. Is that a playstyle thing? yes. Is that problematic? apparently. should it be? I don't think so.

It is a playstyle thing and I would have been somewhat more concerned if I made it to L-1, L-2's not such a big deal though. The odds of a lynch happening are fairly small. I don't think it's scummy for you to dislike the RVS L-2 though.

4. I unvoted Ashley because RVS is over and it's stupid at this point to have my vote on someone because someone else stole my gummi worms in middle school.
Foxbird and Alex, can you share any reasons why I should I have kept my vote on Ashley?

Your vote is weaker when it's not on someone, even if it's on someone over gummi worms. It just seemed odd to remove it without placing it elsewhere. But I think this is probably just a difference in playstyles.

Let's break this one down according to Alex:
Quote one: dismisses the only criticism he's made against any other player so far. Also Alex quote something he doesn't find scummy
Quote two: Alex quotes something he doesn't find scummy
Quote three: Alex quotes something that he thinks he just different playstyles, AKA not scummy!

So that was another post that accomplished nothing except made Alex look busy.

I'll ignore the prodge in 73 because I don't think activity or lack there-of is a reliable alignment indicator, but it would fit with all this hiding in plain site.

So I'm getting caught up, I'll just post things as I see them.

I find this:

5. Foxbird, your vote is on me to see my defense. What specifically do you want me to defend against? Your vote? Or just in general? If I jump around in a town t-shirt, would that qualify?

What you posted is what I wanted to see - just the whole 'how does he react under pressure?' thing. I like your reaction, though I find the 'Town T-Shirt' comment a bit strange.
And yes, many of the 'issues' probably boil down to playstyle etc, so I'm moving my vote to someone who I want to see do something for now.

Hmm...
UNVOTE: Arak
VOTE: Wirt

Let's see what he says after catching up!

To be more likely coming from town more so than scum. That's provided Arak's town. While the Wirt vote is fairly weak, I don't see why scum!Foxbird moves off of a wagon that has momentum to apply pressure on someone who hadn't even posted at that point. Unless Arak's her scum partner and she was legitimately afraid that he was at risk of being lynched, but that seems unlikely to me.

Here he finds Foxbirds switch to Wirt to be a towny move? What? Haha maybe you're her partner. Alex can't find a single motivation for a scum Foxbird to go off the wagon. Not one. Look at this wishy-washiness...."Oh, but maybe Arak's her partner oh but maybe not." "Oh, that vote was weak, but also likely town"

Still nothing critical said. No strong reads. No pushes. No critiques. Still just Alex coasting along, no risk and no reward. moving on!

Hello folks

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

As several other have noted, the third paragraph here is very bizarrely paranoid. And the follow-up to being questioned by Huntress also looked very defensive to me. A good vote to get me into the game.


VOTE: arak

Wait what. Am i the only one that thinks this is an extremely convenient hop on?

And arak saying that he didnt really flail is a rather town move; if he was scum he wouldve most likely tried to avoid discussion about that

I find it kind of sheepy, but not necessarily scummy.

Look at this multiple post sequence being quoted and reposted just that we all know that Alex thinks this interaction wasn't scummy. Busy busy busy busy busy Alex scumhunting so hard.

I'm going to have to finish this later but go ahead and take a look inside, it's worth it just to see how empty his posts are when they're all lined up next to each other.

[arak-and-skhug]

Alex why do you think I reacted like I I did initially?

Beats the hell out of me.

If you still think your question was so bone-crushingly hard-hitting and it just rattled me so much that I was forced to be defensive, you have zero reading comprehension. and then off you go again pooping out a new worthless post for every post you see. Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

Point to where I felt my question was so "bone-crushingly hard-hitting". I asked you a simple question and you flipped out. The question wasn't a big deal but you completely blew it out of proportion.
I felt the need to be friendly and welcome someone to the game. Why does it bother you so much?

All I'm saying is that if your scum what your doing makes sense. And if your town it doesn't. Because right now for me it's just the equivalent of someone making a lot of noise. If you could have understood why I responded like I did I would have an easier time believing you're town but you're pulling teeth comment applies that you apparently still don't get it.

We clearly have two different playstyles. Although it feels an awful lot like you're trying to discredit what I say.

It beats the hell out of you? Are you reading my posts? I'll explain it again. I found your questioning to be scummy and/or not pro-town because it was an empty question with an easy answer that wasn't going to reveal much by me answering it and I protested it to either get you off autopilot if your town or blow your cover if your scum. It had nothing to do with the actual question itself which was just the latest in easy questions that you've done nothing with. If you used all these questions to compile an information rich post for all the town to benefit from it would be one thing. But you haven't.

It bothers me that you're cluttering the thread with empty posts and blowing your post count up and trying to look busy without taking any risks, making any pushes, or landing any solid criticisms. It's lovely to welcome someone but all it takes is one sentence at the top of a game related post. When people aren't concise and game threads bloat, scum thrives.

[Alexcellent]

Spoiler:

Okay doing an ISO now because Alex still bothers me. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag so that everyone doesn't get a head ache from quotes on quotes on quotes., this is basically a run through of every time he does this quote + one question thing and how much he accomplishes by doing it.

Spoiler: Alex ISO Part One

So how much experience do all new players have with mafia? Played much before offsite or is MafiaScum basically it so far?

Only Foxbird answers this question that was asked to everyone, Alex doesn't follow up on it in any way.

What follow up should I have had to this question? And Wirt asked me about this earlier and I responded to him.

I feel like a bad guy here... Sorry Alex, i just heard wagons were good to get the game going.
@Arak: you are being too paranoid, i don't think a page 1 lynch happens that often; maybe 1 in 1000 games?

I forgive you

What changed for you between this game and your previous completed newbie games? You seemed opposed to RVS voting early in those games. Just the hearing about wagons thing?

Charloux answers this question, Alex again doesn't follow up on it in any way or ever mention his meta on Charloux again.

He satisfied me with his answer, which I acknowledged in 28.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

You seem nervous about this wagon. Do you really think scum would expose themselves like that?

I'm getting a slight scum-vibe from this post.

Vote: Arak

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

Town won that so you'd like scum to win this one?

Okay Huntress go ahead and take us out of RVS before everyone's even gotten here.
UNVOTE: ashley

1) In regards to the Alex wagon being a mistake: I've looked around in other newbie games and crazier things have happened. No, it's not likely that Alex would get lynched, but what good comes out of wagoning like that? Did we really gain any information from having a wagon on Alex? A RVS wagon doesn't do much of anything, people feel no pressure when there's no reasoning behind the votes. If Alex WAS scum he can just shrug and say oh well they're voting me because of my name, and then he doesn't have to defend himself and we're denied any information that would come of it.

2) Town won my last game so I want scum to win this one? What? Either you didn't think this one through all the way or you're making a low-energy effort to paint a throwaway statement as a tell. I said I lost last one so I want to win this one. Pretty sure motivation to win is an alignment neutral trait, but if you're going to try to erroneously generalize at least do it accurately. Scum LOST my last game so I want town to win this one. Because I was scum last game and town this game. And both games I want/wanted to win. Do I need to simplify more?

I do find this post to be pretty defensive for fairly little reason.
Why did you remove your RVS vote?

I didn't realize you weren't being serious and I didn't realize I overreacted.

And yes while it's true that we're gaining information, we're only gaining it on 3-4 players. Half the town didn't participate in RVS. And I don't know how critical or not that is but it seems to me like a bad idea because scum can hide in all those holes. Of course the game needs to progress and we have to do something but we just need to be mindful of who hasn't had a chance to post yet and how it's easy to hone in for good or for bad on more active players.

Also Charloux, what does it mean to be overly honest? Does town have any reason to be anything less then honest?

This sort of checks out in some ways but it's also very early to be anxious about this sort of thing. Do you think it would be bad if scum missed out on RVS?

Okay so here Alex picks one post and quotes it just to say its defensive. A few posts later he'll say defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Ok so that was a wase of time.

I said defensiveness isn't necessarily a scum tell. Slight difference but a difference. Defensiveness can come from both town and scum. Discrediting me again.

As for the questions you ask in the post, let me prove my point by answering them. Why did I unvote? RVS is over. Is it bad if scum missed out on RVS? It's not good. But it's not critical. It's just a little less information for the town. These are such no-risk no-reward questions. Nothing about my alignment is revealed by answering them, but more noteworthy, nothing is revealed about Alex's alignment by asking them. He's hiding.

At that point in the game when there's such little info on the table, what kind of "high risk, high reward" questions could I have asked? At that point in the game, I'm asking questions both to stir activity and to get an idea of your approach to the game.

Post 27 is fluff
Post 28 is fluff

Post 28 is an acknowledgement of Charloux's answer to me, as stated earlier.

What i think is that arak is def on my nullscum list for that reaction, but not more than that. Flailing isnt necessarily a scum thing; dont forget this is a newbie game, we (yes im a newb too) tend to stress a lot when they are suspected, regardless of alignment.
Im keeping my rvs vote tho, ill let huntress continue their discussion, id love to see what foxbird has to say

Yeah agreed. Defensiveness isn't necessarily a scum tell here. But it's worth noting how he reacts under pressure.

Okay a few quick thoughts cause i just worked all night and need to sleep.

1) L-2s make me uncomfortable. L-1s even more so. Is that a playstyle thing? yes. Is that problematic? apparently. should it be? I don't think so.

It is a playstyle thing and I would have been somewhat more concerned if I made it to L-1, L-2's not such a big deal though. The odds of a lynch happening are fairly small. I don't think it's scummy for you to dislike the RVS L-2 though.

4. I unvoted Ashley because RVS is over and it's stupid at this point to have my vote on someone because someone else stole my gummi worms in middle school.
Foxbird and Alex, can you share any reasons why I should I have kept my vote on Ashley?

Your vote is weaker when it's not on someone, even if it's on someone over gummi worms. It just seemed odd to remove it without placing it elsewhere. But I think this is probably just a difference in playstyles.

Let's break this one down according to Alex:
Quote one: dismisses the only criticism he's made against any other player so far. Also Alex quote something he doesn't find scummy
Quote two: Alex quotes something he doesn't find scummy
Quote three: Alex quotes something that he thinks he just different playstyles, AKA not scummy!

So that was another post that accomplished nothing except made Alex look busy.

Active discussion and sharing opinions is somehow a scum tell to you. Opinions have value even if it's an opinion of what someone doesn't view as scummy.

So I'm getting caught up, I'll just post things as I see them.

I find this:

5. Foxbird, your vote is on me to see my defense. What specifically do you want me to defend against? Your vote? Or just in general? If I jump around in a town t-shirt, would that qualify?

What you posted is what I wanted to see - just the whole 'how does he react under pressure?' thing. I like your reaction, though I find the 'Town T-Shirt' comment a bit strange.
And yes, many of the 'issues' probably boil down to playstyle etc, so I'm moving my vote to someone who I want to see do something for now.

Hmm...
UNVOTE: Arak
VOTE: Wirt

Let's see what he says after catching up!

To be more likely coming from town more so than scum. That's provided Arak's town. While the Wirt vote is fairly weak, I don't see why scum!Foxbird moves off of a wagon that has momentum to apply pressure on someone who hadn't even posted at that point. Unless Arak's her scum partner and she was legitimately afraid that he was at risk of being lynched, but that seems unlikely to me.

Here he finds Foxbirds switch to Wirt to be a towny move? What? Haha maybe you're her partner. Alex can't find a single motivation for a scum Foxbird to go off the wagon. Not one. Look at this wishy-washiness...."Oh, but maybe Arak's her partner oh but maybe not." "Oh, that vote was weak, but also likely town"

Still nothing critical said. No strong reads. No pushes. No critiques. Still just Alex coasting along, no risk and no reward. moving on!

Explain to me why scum jumping off a wagon that has momentum and starting a non-existent wagon that goes nowhere makes any sense for scum to do? Especially when she was the first person to jump off your wagon. If she jumped off second or third, then it would be a bit more questionable, but she actively decided to remove pressure on you without other players leaving first.

Hello folks

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

As several other have noted, the third paragraph here is very bizarrely paranoid. And the follow-up to being questioned by Huntress also looked very defensive to me. A good vote to get me into the game.


VOTE: arak

Wait what. Am i the only one that thinks this is an extremely convenient hop on?

And arak saying that he didnt really flail is a rather town move; if he was scum he wouldve most likely tried to avoid discussion about that

I find it kind of sheepy, but not necessarily scummy.

Look at this multiple post sequence being quoted and reposted just that we all know that Alex thinks this interaction wasn't scummy. Busy busy busy busy busy Alex scumhunting so hard.[/quote]

So basically your plan is to copy and paste everything in my ISO and make up a reason for it to be scummy?

Alex why do you think I reacted like I I did initially?

Beats the hell out of me.

If you still think your question was so bone-crushingly hard-hitting and it just rattled me so much that I was forced to be defensive, you have zero reading comprehension. and then off you go again pooping out a new worthless post for every post you see. Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

Point to where I felt my question was so "bone-crushingly hard-hitting". I asked you a simple question and you flipped out. The question wasn't a big deal but you completely blew it out of proportion.
I felt the need to be friendly and welcome someone to the game. Why does it bother you so much?

All I'm saying is that if your scum what your doing makes sense. And if your town it doesn't. Because right now for me it's just the equivalent of someone making a lot of noise. If you could have understood why I responded like I did I would have an easier time believing you're town but you're pulling teeth comment applies that you apparently still don't get it.

We clearly have two different playstyles. Although it feels an awful lot like you're trying to discredit what I say.

It beats the hell out of you? Are you reading my posts? I'll explain it again. I found your questioning to be scummy and/or not pro-town because it was an empty question with an easy answer that wasn't going to reveal much by me answering it and I protested it to either get you off autopilot if your town or blow your cover if your scum. It had nothing to do with the actual question itself which was just the latest in easy questions that you've done nothing with. If you used all these questions to compile an information rich post for all the town to benefit from it would be one thing. But you haven't.

It bothers me that you're cluttering the thread with empty posts and blowing your post count up and trying to look busy without taking any risks, making any pushes, or landing any solid criticisms. It's lovely to welcome someone but all it takes is one sentence at the top of a game related post. When people aren't concise and game threads bloat, scum thrives.

How is dancing around the question actually going to accomplish anything though? It's just going to make me assume you have something to hide by not cooperating.

Again, can you please point to where I apparently felt my question was so "bone-crushingly hard-hitting". I'd rather you not cherry pick what you want to acknowledge and ignore.

I can't really win on this forum because in the past when I've made gigantic walls, it's bugged people, and now when I make shorter more frequent posts, apparently that's somehow a scum tell. The post count seems to bother you a lot for some reason.
You also need to stop jumping to conclusions based on bad assumptions. You've been doing that a lot.

[Alexcellent]

@Arak, what is your Huntress town read based on? You didn't answer me earlier.

[Alexcellent]

From towniest to scummiest:

(Chip Butty not on the list since there's nothing to go on yet)

Alexcellent

obvs town, right guys?

Wirt

read is based largely on activity. Lots of content, lots of scum hunting and actively pushing and interacting with a lot of people. Happy to town read here.

SirCakez

I've played with town Cakez and scum Cakez. I've found him hard to read before but I think this is more his town game than scum game that we're seeing. In our game where he was scum, he was much more coasting in the background with shorter posts and not a lot of independent scum hunting. Here he's playing differently, and I really liked 97.

Foxbird

a lot of this seems to come from the earlier stuff with her unvoting Arak. There were 3 votes on Arak and Foxbird actively chose to leave the wagon without any prompting from other players. I can see more town motivation in that than scum motivation. I'm not a fan of 147 with the "if he flips scum, it looks really bad for me" thing as it shows she's very conscious of how she appears to the rest of us. She occasionally says very theory based statements and such like in 53, and sometimes I feel like can come from newbie scum who are trying to appear town, but in this case, it checks out with her 13 where she said she was a fanatic about reading the wiki. I ovreall get the vibe that she's a townie excited to be in her first game. The more recent passive play is a bit concerning but not enough for me to suspect her.

Huntress

Null. Cautious of this slot, perhaps because of paranoia since I've been beaten by a scum IC Huntress before Not a lot of content though. Leaving it at that for now.

Arak

I don't really know what to think. There are things in his posts that bug me and make me want to scum read him. I feel as though some of his posts are misrepresentative of me to an extent, and I feel as though he's actively trying to discredit my input. I dislike his Inspector vote for some reasons. Mainly because his vote is parked on Inspector but he's pushed harder against myself and Foxbird. I can accept that he's also scum reading Inspector and so he's voting the most likely scum read to get lynched. But there's also the thought in my head that he's scum just looking for the easiest lynch while creating space for him to move his vote if needs be. It seems the more that I interact with him, the more defensive he gets. However, I think there's also a major clash in playstyles between us. He does tend to jump to conclusions and put his own spin on certain posts, which feels like misrepping to me, but I've seen town play like that too I guess when they've felt confident in their reads. I took a glance through his other game on site, which he was scum in. I feel like he's playing differently here. He's more aggressive in this game and seems more confident in his reads. Based on that, I'm inclined to probably give him the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

I'd appreciate if others could chime in on if they think our interactions have been TvT or TvS.

Charloux

There's just not a lot to go on, even though it's not as if he's been inactive. There are posts, but most of the posts are observations more than anything. Some people play like this as town, but I'm not a big fan of the "sit back and watch" approach as scum are more likely to try and fly under the radar. The 141 "Guess I'm busted" bothers me as it just shrugs off suspicion. If Charloux's been observing personalities and watching, where's the follow up? Why not provide some commentary or thoughts or reads? He also hasn't placed a vote since he unvoted me from RVS.

Inspector

Honestly, when I voted Inspector it was more just to see how he and others would react. But I'm kind of good with my vote here right now. 50, I don't like the wording of

Wait what. Am i the only one that thinks this is an extremely convenient hop on?

. It's minor but the way he gauged other people's reactions to it is iffy. And:

@foxbird
Im not voting yet, but i do agree with arak. You are following instead of having your own opinion (lol bad example cuz im following arak too now)
His points are pretty valid, and your reply with the newbie card feels pretty meh to me. Never say you dont know what to do because you are new, because thats just lynch bait. It doesnt mean you are scum, but it does mean that we can kill without losing much and thus gather more time to find real scum. It might be scary, but you need to stand up for what you think. It will benefit you if you are town, and it makes u credible as scum.

Votehopping isnt necessarily a bad thing, but mostly its a sign that you just want someone as a target to look like you are participating. Vote for someone and push until you are sure of that person's alignment, or until you are sure no real useful discussion will follow. U unvoted arak, but you couldve pushed. Hes nulltown in my eyes so far, but didnt completely convince me yet. If he had my vote, he'd still have it. Dont be scared of voting town until you are sure that the person you voted for is town.

I hope this helps a bit. Now, what do you think about alex?

He answered my question about this post but it still gives me scummy vibes. "I agree with Arak" after Arak made a massive wall post on why he thought Foxbird was scum, but then gives her a pass on the newbie card. It reads as though "I'm suspicious of you" but then gives townie advice like he's aware of Foxbird's alignment. Potential buddying? At least that's how it reads to me. Also didn't like the 104 response to SirCakez's vote on him and the "o wow im at L-2". I find it strange that Inspector never really addressed my vote on him but he responded to Cakez and Arak's votes. And I find his "oops, forgot there's only night talk here" to be NAI. Scum fake that sort of thing all the time, I've done it myself. His 86 vote is also weak as it only comes along when Arak brings up the fact that he hasn't voted, and he even admits the reasoning for it is bad.

===

I'll follow on here rather than make a new post, as I don't want to offend the Post Count Police.

@Inspector

- following on from your reads list in 94, do you still feel that Cakez is scum? Has your nullscum read on Charloux changed? Do you have thoughts on Huntress now that she's had a few more posts?

@SirCakez

-

I looked at inspectorscout's ISO and I found some concerning stuff.
The progression from 39 to 50 makes little sense. He specifically says he has arak as nullscum in 39, yet in 50 he defends arak and gives a reason to townread him. The only post in between was an unvote of Foxbird. I don't see how he just got from nullscum to defending in 10 posts.

And then I don't like his readslist in 94

There's a lot of vague reasoning.
For example, his nulltownread on Wirt is summarized as "althought he came late to the party, he did some pretty nice stuff so far. Nulltown" which looks like a throwaway townread scum would make.

VOTE: inspectorscout

Was there anything specific in his reads list that you didn't like?
Also I asked earlier and I don't think you answered, but why vote Inspector over Foxbird? You had said that you were scumreading Foxbird earlier, and she had more votes on her. The jump to Inspector is just curious.

@Wirt

- how are you feeling about Cakez now that he's posted a bit more? Feeling better or worse about his content?

[Chip Butty]

Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

Yes. Yes, it did. But we have no time to dwell on such trifles; We must instead hunt scum. To wit:

I've read through now, and perhaps my strongest impression was that Wirt is Town. I ISOed him, and my first impression was confirmed, so Wirt is my strongest Townread for now. Apart from his confpost, it's been all probing, a clear focus on scum hunting, no messing around.

Huntress's stuff looks Townish for similar reasons but, since she is IC and would know how to fake looking Town, I'm going to reserve judgement on her for now (I'm a bit paranoid there because the IC in Newbie 1704 was scum).

A note on Charl, with whom I have played one game (Newbie 1704): Charl's playstyle can be...uh...whimsical. In that game he fakeclaimed Jailkeeper as VT, got caught out and came within an inch of getting lynched. He only lived through the game because (1) There was someone even scummier-looking to lynch that day, and (2) He was cleared by a confirmed Tracker that night. So...something to bear in mind.

I get the impression that Arak v Alex is TvT but I will need to go back and read through their spat again to check.

Apart from that, I'm getting that feeling that tells me my subconscious needs some time to chew this over, so I'll wait to post more reads. But when I return, I expect to be ready to post a vote.

[Chip Butty]

At the risk of upsetting Arak: Hi Charl!

[Chip Butty]

Hello folks

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

As several other have noted, the third paragraph here is very bizarrely paranoid. And the follow-up to being questioned by Huntress also looked very defensive to me. A good vote to get me into the game.

Almost forgot...

A few people have already noted that this looks like a convenient leap onto a bw. I think that is a plausible view, particularly in light of the "As several other have noted" he prefaces it with...That looks like he might be hedging against being called out for copying his view from others.

But what leapt out at me a bit here was his decription of Arak's third para as "very bizarrely paranoid", which is a gross overstatement, as if he is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Chip Butty]

Hello folks

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

As several other have noted, the third paragraph here is very bizarrely paranoid. And the follow-up to being questioned by Huntress also looked very defensive to me. A good vote to get me into the game.

Almost forgot...

A few people have already noted

that this looks like a convenient leap onto a bw. I think that is a plausible view, particularly in light of the "As several other have noted" he prefaces it with...That looks like he might be hedging against being called out for copying his view from others.

But what leapt out at me a bit here was his decription of Arak's third para as "very bizarrely paranoid", which is a gross overstatement, as if he is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

LOL I just noticed I did exactly the same thing of which I accused Cakez. But, in my case, I

did

add some new content to the original observation...

[Charloux]

Hey Chip! Now we have 1 obv town at least
It's my brothers prom night today so i won't have internet access for today since i am going to a family gathering, so don't expect any posts today. Maybe a short one from my mobile phone; But i can't even quote with that piece of junk
@Alex: My best guess for scum right now is Fox, and i am currently following Huntress, Inspector and Cakez. I won't be voting for Arak, Wirt and Chip today. I am not sure yet about you, but i see you as a lesser priority right now.

[Foxbird]

Hey Chip! Now we have 1 obv town at least
It's my brothers prom night today so i won't have internet access for today since i am going to a family gathering, so don't expect any posts today. Maybe a short one from my mobile phone; But i can't even quote with that piece of junk
@Alex: My best guess for scum right now is Fox, and i am currently following Huntress, Inspector and Cakez. I won't be voting for Arak, Wirt and Chip today. I am not sure yet about you, but i see you as a lesser priority right now.

So you

have

scumreads, but you're still not voting? Why not?

I also don't like how Chip seems to be defending Charloux' playstyle because they were in one game together (166), and then Charloux calls him 'obv town'.

[arak-and-skhug]

Alex, posts like 165 are exactly what I was missing from you.

I'm townreading Huntress because she's consistantly made sense to me, moving the game foward in a pro-town way, being genuine and concise, scum hunting and providing information
My quip about bone-crushing hard-hitting questions was me making fun of you for not realizing that I didn't actually care that much about your question. All you could see was my reaction and you didn't and still don't I think understand why I reacted like that. If you still don't understand what I was doing, I don't think you ever will.

But I do like 165! So there's that. So maybe I got through to you somehow! Except I disagree with one major point. I don't think Foxbird jumping first off my wagon clears her to be town for a few reason.
One - in the first couple posts of the game I looked like a super easy bandwagon with the IC on my back and Charloux deciding I'm probably prone to be taken advantage of
Two - Cakez joining my wagon actually discredited it because he joined so badly.
Three - by this point various people including you were starting to say I wasn't scummy.
Four - so Foxbird felt the winds changing and got nervous and went from me (who looked like an easy target but then was started proving more difficult) to Wirt (who also looked like an easy target because he hadn't joined yet)
Five - I think it was my post 45 (in which I quietly called out Cakez and Foxbird following Huntress with bad reasoning) and you backing it up right after that reversed the momentum on my wagon, rather then Foxbird's unvote.


I think Foxbird is intelligent enough to have sensed that I wasn't going to be quicklynched, (and it was obvious that I wasn't going to be quicklynched) and unvoted either because she got nervous, or because she calculated that it would help her look town, or some combination of both.


Also, I might be stretching here, but Foxbird said something that I think actually might clear Inspector if Foxbird flips scum. I'll give a cookie to anyone else that caught it.

[Chip Butty]

Hey Chip! Now we have 1 obv town at least
It's my brothers prom night today so i won't have internet access for today since i am going to a family gathering, so don't expect any posts today. Maybe a short one from my mobile phone; But i can't even quote with that piece of junk
@Alex: My best guess for scum right now is Fox, and i am currently following Huntress, Inspector and Cakez. I won't be voting for Arak, Wirt and Chip today. I am not sure yet about you, but i see you as a lesser priority right now.

So you

have

scumreads, but you're still not voting? Why not?

I also don't like how Chip seems to be defending Charloux' playstyle because they were in one game together (166), and then Charloux calls him 'obv town'.

I like this post, actually. It's the kind of probing that everyone should be doing at this point. I'm about to go over your ISO though, and my impression on my initial readthrough was that you haven't been doing as much of this as you should have been doing. (And no, that was

not

a coded secret instruction to a scumbuddy - EVERY time we cite a reason why we find something Town or scummy, we are teaching observant scum a little bit about how to blend in).

I agree with you about Charl calling me 'obvtown'; There is no way I am obvtown based on what I have posted to date, so that just looks like blatant buddying. In fact, that post of his just above has pinged me harder than anything else I've seen so far, so I'm leaning scum on Charl.

Also - and I guess I could have been clearer about this - my intent wasn't to defend Charls' playstyle, but just to point out that he can be a bit erratic at times. I think sometimes he takes the game seriously, and other times just decides to have a bit of fun with it. "Hard to read" is what I am saying, I guess. I mean, I was totally prepared to lynch him in that other game I mentioned.

[Huntress]

Fox's 147 looks like a pre-emptive defence against being called Inspector's partner should Inspector flip scum, but I'm also wondering whether Inspector has been setting her up a bit. I need to look into that.

Going to mull over the other posts a bit more and cross check a few things before commenting on them.

Weird is not scummy until you already think someone is scummy. Then it just makes your scumread stronger.

That's a pretty good description of confirmation bias. If you are town you should guard against that.