Mini 1800 - Game Over

[Dierfire]

Mobile post: sorry, connectivity issues, back within 24 hours!

[Dierfire]

All right, I'm back online and reading now.

[Dierfire]

Here are some thoughts. Actually, this is a long post, so I'm breaking it in half.

I'm reading Persivul as Town. Striking against the seeming contradiction by Sickofit1138 (27) and sticking to that line (64, 137) helps advance the game. More importantly, updating the read (150) is consistent with an attempt to read Sickofit1138 (and accords with some of my impressions, see below). Also, the read on ShadyHood (151) is good (and how many Mafia players look up the ages of other players?) and the use of previous games to read players (Sickofit1138 in 150, karnos in 185 and 190) requires a degree of effort that I'd say reflects an attempt to read other players.

I'm reading Chumba as Town. The vote on Kappy in 29 is fine; ideally Town players would never do what Kappy did there. Following that push in 43, 46, and beyond feels strong. I believe her when she says that she interpreted Sickofit1138 as being open to a future wagon rather than trying to create one (60), especially given her rather specific definition of a wagon. It's difficult for me to explain exactly why, but in 70 and 74 I do not read her as trying to defend Sickofit1138. Rather, I read her as commenting on a major feature of the game at that point (and so I specifically disagree with MechaGoomba in 76 and subsequent pushes, but I don't believe that he's Mafia there because he revises his read in 88). Her more recent encounter with Persivul (162, 163, 167, 170, 173, 178, 179) feels like Town/Town to me, both because I'm reading them as Town individually and because their positions (Persivul says Chumba is incorrect while asking how his vote factors into her read, Chumba acknowledges Persivul's points but maintains her read) are logical and appropriate responses to each other. I'm leaning toward saying the same about her encounter with Saru on the last page, but haven't thought it through fully yet.

I guess that I'll tack on the miscellaneous section to this half:

I agreed with posts by qubixes (33) and Snork (95, 96). I haven't settled on whether I'm reading them as Town, but probably I will be.

I didn't look into the previous games that karnos played that a few other players discussed. Mostly this seemed like a distraction to me but I'll get to it eventually just to make sure.

[Dierfire]

Sickofit1138 is a difficult read for me. Certain posts (73, 126, 134) are the sorts of things that I don't want to read as Town, but do. I think that most posts to the effect of "only Mafia would be pushing me here" come from Town players, and certainly fit the exaggerated emotional tone that Sickofit1138 is showing. On the other hand, posts like 152 feel

too

exaggerated, especially with Persivul backing off in 150. I might be able to make this read dependent upon Kappy.

Kappy certainly has an interesting relationship with Sickofit1138. It goes something like this: vote in 5, defending Sickofit1138 in 28 (shortly followed by moving the vote to Chumba in 30), vote for Persivul (who is voting for Sickofit1138) in 41, defending Sickofit1138 in 71, saying that Sickofit1138 was a strong Mafia read until he explained himself in 103 (I saw no evidence of a strong Mafia read and nothing from Sickofit1138 that should have soothed someone with such a strong read), reading Persivul strongly as Town in 181 while reading Sickofit1138 as Mafia (yet still has a vote on Persivul), jumping to a wagon on karnos in 192, claiming to have looked into those previous games (apparently still drafting that post about Persivul and Sickofit1138). The rapidly bouncing read looks strange to me, and I'm certainly interested in the post that Kappy promised.

Snork also noted a possible associations between these slots, and MechaGoomba raised an objection.

This is kind of funny if it's what I think it is.

You are of the opinion that 2 scum are voting the towniest-looking player in the game, start of day 1, and no one else is?
I'm afraid I have to ask why scum would ever do such a thing.

The answer that comes to my mind is that Kappy and Sickofit1138 each had three votes with no other major wagons (as of 27), so the desire to move votes away and perhaps open another wagon should be fairly strong. On the other hand, Kappy is suspicious even if Sickofit1138 is Town here.

VOTE: Kappy

My count agrees with Persivul's; this is the fourth vote for Kappy.

That's all for now.

[Dierfire]

Spoiler: Not This Game

@Mizzytastic

I hope that you're feeling better soon.

@Snork

Congratulations to your niece!

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

The answer that comes to my mind is that Kappy and Sickofit1138 each had three votes with no other major wagons (as of 27), so the desire to move votes away and perhaps open another wagon should be fairly strong.

I don't understand this. Percy is at the top of a lot of people's townlists, and, without really good arguments, that doesn't seem likely to change. Why not push the wagon on karnos instead? They had plenty of opportunity to, since it was a pretty viable wagon, but they both ignored it until there was seemingly-damning evidence, and then only Kappy jumped on.
For that to make sense with Sick and Kappy both being scum, karnos would also have to be scum, and at that point we're talking about having fingered the entire scumteam day 1, which does not happen unless one of the players is a god of scumhunting.

I could potentially see them both being scum, especially given how Sick conspicuously ignores Kappy, but something about it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I don't want to do preflip associatives if at all possible. Could you help me figure this out?

Well, now that you mention it, karnos did have that weird on-and-off vote in 55 and 56! However, I don't think that we need to get that far ahead of ourselves. Kappy is behaving oddly towards Sickofit1138 and is suspicious regardless of whether Sickofit1138 is Town or Mafia. If we see Kappy flip Mafia then we can look again.
As for the question of why they would both move to Persivul as Mafia, my point is that they both had three votes and no other player had any votes (as of 27). Kappy first moves not to Persivul but to Chumba (30), later moving to Persivul in 41. So it wouldn't be the case that they both end up on Persivul out of some belief that he's the most viable wagon to push through to a lynch, but rather out of a belief that they can disengage from each other without seeming suspicious.
Anyway, you're right--one flip at a time.

[Dierfire]

The conversation between Persivul and Saru bores me. From this, I conclude that they're both Town! (I'm only partially joking)

[Dierfire]

I've read the last few pages, but I didn't find anything interesting. I feel as though I need to read some of the less active players.

[Dierfire]

Oh, I guess that I could comment on 235 by Kappy.

@Kappy

Your read on Sickofit1138 in 181 sounded much stronger than the evidence that you presented in 235. In particular, you had cited his 134 and 152 when you first changed your read, but when you finally made the longer post your objections seemed to be that 134 was "an excuse" and that 152 is nonsensical. Are you able to further elaborate on why those things made you swing your read so strongly?

[Dierfire]

@karnos

I find it interesting that you think you know exactly how many scum are in the game.

How many Mafia players did MechaGoomba say are in the game?

[Dierfire]

@Kappy

Saru: It seems like he is voting for me because he doesn't like the content of my posts. I don't really know what to say to this.
Mecha: He just doesn't like 235, since he claims it is all recycled. That may be true, but I was placing my opinion on it, since I hadn't mentioned my opinion before.
Dierfire: He just commented on the weird association between me and Sick. I just want to point out that I scumread Sick, but I have to UNVOTE: for now to give his replacement a chance.
Is that what you want?

I'd like to have you comment on how you're reading the three of us. I gather that you think that all of our reasons for voting you are bad; do you feel that any are false?

[Dierfire]

I'm back and reading now.

[Dierfire]

Persivul in 435 and qubixes in 459 accurately capture where I was going in 393: karnos pushes back against MechaGoomba in a way that feels insincere (more like trying to "return fire" than actually trying to read MechaGoomba). I need a VC and time to finally look at those previously mentioned games of karnos, but this is likely to be my vote shortly.

[Dierfire]

@Kappy

You may have missed this.

@Kappy

Saru: It seems like he is voting for me because he doesn't like the content of my posts. I don't really know what to say to this.
Mecha: He just doesn't like 235, since he claims it is all recycled. That may be true, but I was placing my opinion on it, since I hadn't mentioned my opinion before.
Dierfire: He just commented on the weird association between me and Sick. I just want to point out that I scumread Sick, but I have to UNVOTE: for now to give his replacement a chance.
Is that what you want?

I'd like to have you comment on how you're reading the three of us. I gather that you think that all of our reasons for voting you are bad; do you feel that any are false?

[Dierfire]

Overall I liked Wingback's entrance, although I may have issues with the read on Mizzytastic.

@Wingback

Why are you reading Mizzytastic as Town? Overall I like that Mizzytastic is focusing some attention on players that I also find suspicious (karnos, Kappy), but I'm not sure that there's anything else here that would make me read Mizzytastic as Town.

Spoiler: For Comparison (My Read on Mizzytastic)

This is a short ISO, so I'll go by posts.
The first few posts (8, 13, 20) seem like RVS--nothing important for me to say here.
The question to Sickofit1138 in 24 should probably be followed, especially given the way that the point was being discussed (such as by Persivul in 27). In this light, 44 and 51 (discussion of RVS), while not particularly suspicious, feel like a diversion from a more productive use of time.
The vote on karnos in 60 is good in that the read on Kappy improves by default (karnos suspiciously trying to avoid blame for lynching Kappy should make Kappy more likely to be Town).
The points against karnos in 123, 143, and 156 are retrospectively good because I'm suspicious of karnos (and because 177 makes them less likely to be partners), but they're not particularly difficult for a Mafia player to generate.
The question to Sickofit1138 in 128 and 129 again is easy to generate (pointing out that Sickofit1138 has made a post that is not attempting to read other players).
The line against ShadyHood in 146 and 154 (and 155) again feels superficial (looking for phrasing that reveals hidden knowledge rather than looking for motivations behind posts).
The question for clarity in 79 probably indicates nothing about alignment. I've similarly little to say about 231 and 401.

[Dierfire]

@karnos

Persivul in 435 and qubixes in 459 accurately capture where I was going in 393: karnos pushes back against MechaGoomba in a way that feels insincere (more like trying to "return fire" than actually trying to read MechaGoomba). I need a VC and time to finally look at those previously mentioned games of karnos, but this is likely to be my vote shortly.

You and others making the same 'observation': I voted MechaGoomba first. If it's scummy to push back with a vote, then you should be reading him as scum, not me.

My 393 has very little to do with your vote on MechaGoomba (which came later, in 399). Would you like to try again?

[Dierfire]

I see people arguing that the way that karnos treated Persivul is perhaps plausible from a Town perspective. I think that there are other good reasons to be voting karnos. I'll elaborate on that when I finish looking at those previous games (which is happening right now).

[Dierfire]

With regard to the point that I've been pushing, I did dig up a similarly indirect attack with similar wording (underlined) from karnos in a game that he played as Town.

The way you are jumping at his defense

is rather interesting

, given that Ranger was under the same number of lynch votes and you certainly didn't jump out at the person who put her at -2 L. My understanding is that this game doesn't have Masons. There is no way you could know transcend is innocent, yet you are acting as if you are positive he is.

Very odd

.

I still think that this is slightly different from his 382 in this game, and I'm not inclined to give a pass to the behavior, because it feels most like the point is to turn aside criticism by threatening a confrontation (his 396 certainly makes it clear that he thinks it unlikely that MechaGoomba actually revealed knowledge of how many Mafia players we have).

A quick (and admittedly somewhat rushed) read through the games mentioned earlier leaves me believing the argument advanced by qubixes in 372 that karnos is playing this game more carefully and cautiously than those earlier games (in which he was Town). In a few instances (such as his comfort with chasing wagons to L-1 in the game referenced above), this might be a matter of learning, but even then he seems to have taken an odd lesson from it in 56 (someone mentioned this already, but the point is that it's strange for him to be worried about being implicated if someone else drove a quick lynch and he happened to be on the wagon).

I agree with qubixes in 546 and disagree with Masquerade in 542--I can think of reasons why a Mafia player would want to hear more discussion (to buy time to turn the lynch somewhere else, to allow partners to plan night actions) or at least to claim to want to hear more discussion (to appear proactive and therefore Town).

UNVOTE: Kappy
VOTE: karnos

[Dierfire]

@Kappy

I know that you've been busy, but I just remembered while reading that I had another question pending, so I'm consolidating them here.

@Kappy

Saru: It seems like he is voting for me because he doesn't like the content of my posts. I don't really know what to say to this.
Mecha: He just doesn't like 235, since he claims it is all recycled. That may be true, but I was placing my opinion on it, since I hadn't mentioned my opinion before.
Dierfire: He just commented on the weird association between me and Sick. I just want to point out that I scumread Sick, but I have to UNVOTE: for now to give his replacement a chance.
Is that what you want?

I'd like to have you comment on how you're reading the three of us. I gather that you think that all of our reasons for voting you are bad; do you feel that any are false?

Oh, I guess that I could comment on 235 by Kappy.

@Kappy

Your read on Sickofit1138 in 181 sounded much stronger than the evidence that you presented in 235. In particular, you had cited his 134 and 152 when you first changed your read, but when you finally made the longer post your objections seemed to be that 134 was "an excuse" and that 152 is nonsensical. Are you able to further elaborate on why those things made you swing your read so strongly?

I called 134 an excuse in both posts. To clarify, I had said 152 bothered me, and I meant it bothered me for the reason I stated in 235, he seemed to be trying for an extra town lynch. Oh, and also that he mispelled tomorrow.

This one isn't quite an answer to my question. My point is that your stated reasons in 235 do not match the strength of your stated suspicion in 181. Are you able to further elaborate on why those reasons are stronger than I think, or why your read was weaker than I think?

[Dierfire]

I am bad at being online when others are.

I'll be back tomorrow.

[Dierfire]

Something feels strange to me here and I'm not exactly certain what it is.

Plan: I should be able to address now some questions that others had for me, and then I'll try to work through this feeling (most likely tomorrow).

[Dierfire]

@Wingback

@Dierfire, what made you abandon the push on Kappy and vote Karnos? Qubixes's case was there for a very long time. Why did you only now decide to verify Karnos's meta and put down a vote?

More than Dierfire's vote, I'm far more interested in what Mathblade thought was so awesome about Dier's Post 558. "

It seems spot on. Looks like they are trying to figure out the game and analyze things

" is an odd way to describe a post where Dierfire agrees with qubixes and sheeps him.

I thought that I'd telegraphed my vote on karnos--since my question in 393 (responding to his 382) I have been suspicious of the way that karnos seemed to be looking at a very superficial level for things that could be characterized as suspicious rather than trying to determine whether those things actually come from a Mafia mindset. At the very least, I think that my 492 and 557 should have given an indication of where I was going, and should weigh against your characterization of my vote.
To the question of why I only now got around to looking into those games, I can only answer that it seemed lower priority than some of the other things that I've been doing. I've had "check into those games" on my list of things to do for a little while now (I mentioned it in 228, so it must have been on my radar at that point, although at some point I noted that I wanted to review the case presented by qubixes in 372 specifically), but I didn't get around to it earlier.
Finally, I'm not abandoning my read on Kappy. He's done nothing to improve my read on him (and it frustrates me that he hasn't found time to actually read and respond to my questions), but I can only vote for one player and my read on karnos certainly deserves a vote.

[Dierfire]

@Masquerade

@Dierfire: What exactly in my post are you not agreeing with?

I disagree with your assessment of 510 by karnos (in your 542). I don't believe that his action (asking other players to speculate about which other players would be Mafia if he is) is particularly unlikely to come from a Mafia player for the reasons that I listed.

[Dierfire]

UNVOTE: karnos

I've changed my mind; we still have many players catching up, and I don't feel that I have a good handle on what's going on in the last few pages. I'm not ready for claims/lynches at this point.

Expect my return within 24 hours.

[Dierfire]

I'm still not entirely certain what's going on here, but I think that I know enough.

VOTE: karnos

THIS IS L-1 (AGAIN) FOR KARNOS

[Dierfire]

UNVOTE: karnos

He could be lying, and he certainly could be a Mafia Neapolitan, but now that he's locked into a claim we'll have more information to judge his alignment as the game continues (in addition to his results, we can also judge whether Neapolitan is more likely to be Town or Mafia if we see some other Town/Mafia roles flip, or after mass claim).

I'll look at JohnnyFarrar next, and Kappy is still on my list of suspicious characters.

[Dierfire]

I'm bored.
Dierfire, you gonna make us wait another day or you here now looking? What do you mean when you say looking?

Sorry, I'm still here, just reading through older things looking for a vote!

[Dierfire]

@JohnnyFarrar

I feel like I want you to cast a vote so that I can judge you by it.

[Dierfire]

I still think that Kappy is a good vote.

In addition to earlier things, the vote for Masquerade in 660 has tremendously poor justification for this stage of the game and gives no indication that he thought about the slot's earlier behavior (Mizzytastic was listed beside Persivul as most likely to be Town in the last list of reads that Kappy provided in 181--that's a long time ago, but it's not as though Kappy has mentioned the slot since then either).
Content remains light, so it's hard to make definitive statements, but the way the vote is immediately rescinded in 663 indicates that he didn't have any other justification for the vote (which just makes it worse that the vote was tossed out without Kappy actually looking into the rules to see whether that information was public or not).

VOTE: Kappy

[Dierfire]

@JohnnyFarrar

I don't really have a good one? Feeling pretty lazy rn. You aren't convinced by the multitudenous votes and cases on me?

How about a list of candidates? Which players are in the running for your vote?

The cases have persuaded me that I need to see some content from you, if that's what you're asking.

[Dierfire]

@MathBlade (when you come back)

Dierfire scum for that weird bit at L-1

What was weird about it?

[Dierfire]

@MathBlade

Now let's get to Dierfire's Unvote and revote -- Either way is fishy.
Let's assume Karnos is scum -- Then the Unvote and revote lets Karnos have a second bite at the apple where their claim magically comes in that the majority of people seem to just let go.
Let's assume Karnos is town -- Then the Unvote revote business looks like someone who is scared of the flip and what it would mean to be there.
Very rarely on a D1 lynch would I find that anyone has a reason to waffle like that and to not even state a reason other than they understand.

I can (partially) explain this now.
I removed my vote on karnos (610) because he was hinting at a role (578) but also speculating about the roles that other players had (580). The situation felt strange to me and I wanted to consider the sorts of roles that I thought that karnos might claim. When he started speculating about Masons (618) I decided that it was a good idea to force a claim from karnos, because I wanted to either lynch him or lock him into a claim immediately (as we've done).

[Dierfire]

@Wingback

Did some re-reading of the game. The townread that I most think I've been wrong about was Dierfire which is where I want to focus.

On Dierfire:

• Regarding Post 355/Post 559: What gave you the impression that Kappy's read on Sickofit in Post 181 was very strong? While he does have Sickofit at the bottom of his readslist, it was still early game and the reasons he posted make sense with the kind of reasoning expected that early. I don't know what level of reasoning you were expecting for page seven.
  
• Your entire read on Kappy seems to be based off of that and Kappy's early votehopping and while both of them are fine early game, neither are convincing reasons this late into the day. Kappy's early votehopping could just be him having "fun" in RVS so I don't find that point very strong either.
  
• The sequence of Post 354 and Post 355 looks like an "
  oh well, I have nothing to say, might as well respond to Kappy
  " rather than have any real desire to get your suspect lynched.
  
• Do you have any follow-up on your read on Mizzytastic that you mentioned in Post 494? It seems you like that he suspects the same people as you but other than that, you find his posts superficial and easy for mafia to generate?
  
• As Mathblade pointed out, your unvote in Post 610, and revote in Post 642 onto Karnos is hard to follow. If you unvoted because you were waiting to re-read and get a "good handle on the game," why revote before you did that?

Overall, I don't like that you spent much of the game tunneling Kappy with a short detour at Karnos. There's never any focus on the rest of the game or trying to get reads elsewhere. I don't find anything compelling in your push on Kappy either.

I thought that Kappy should have had a strong reason to read Sickofit1138 as Mafia in 181 because of the way that he described his thought process in 103.

Sick was originally strong scum read, but once explained himself it made sense.

My thought was that if he were reading him as Mafia again in 181, his bouncing read should take that earlier process into account, but it did not seem to do so. There's more to it than that, although I'm having trouble phrasing how I feel. The essence is that Kappy's read changed with frequencies and degrees that should require stronger reasons than what he gave.

I have two questions about your second point. First, do you think that the case on JohnnyFarrar (your current vote) is substantially stronger than the case on Kappy? If you say that it is I will surely ask you why. The second question is, if you feel that my case on Kappy is weak, why were you concerned (569) when I moved my vote away in 558? Some of that appears to have been a misunderstanding of my reasoning for voting for karnos, but the phrase "abandon the push on Kappy" doesn't quite sound as though you were thinking along the same lines there.

Your third point is partially correct; I didn't feel that I had anything contribute, so I went looking for something to do and found something by Kappy that I thought might warrant comment. I did want him lynched, though!

Mizzytastic is Masquerade now, right? I thought that his initial reason for reading karnos as Town was weak, but I didn't see anything suspicious about it. His point (657) that karnos might have claimed sooner if Mafia is fair, and I don't mind chewing on that for a while since karnos shouldn't be lynched today anyway. I've been reading qubixes as Town, so I disagree with his vote there (684), but he's been casting suspicion at those on the karnos wagon, so it at least fits that thought process. His vote on JohnnyFarrar also seemed to be based on weak but not suspicious reasons. I'm not caught up on everything since I last left, but when I was not thinking that he was suspicious.

See my previous post for an explanation of why I removed my vote on karnos and cast it again.

[Dierfire]

I've finished reading (although I'll admit to having difficulty keeping track of the conversation between MagnaofIllusion and MechaGoomba), but I have to go now. I'll be back within 12 hours.

[Dierfire]

I return.

@MechaGoomba

At the time of my 724, I felt fairly confident that a chronological reading of my posts would have made clear my reasoning. I decided when I came back that I could stand to explain a few more details.
I will consider further your interpretation of Kappy's play.

---
With the deadline approaching, I think that I should read over the leading wagons (players being voted and players casting votes).

[Dierfire]

JohnnyFarrar wagon first:

JohnnyFarrar

is an interesting read. I specifically don't want this to be a meta-read or an associative read, but that's what I have. For the former, I recall seeing previous games in which he was incorrectly lynched for being "lazy" (not my words). I don't want to try to track down whether there are variations in the way that that presents between his Town games and his Mafia games; I would rather judge him by his (eventual) actions. The latter is at least easier: his vocal support for lynching karnos (469) that is never followed by a vote (693 offers the justification that he didn't want to push something before catching up), combined with his comparatively weak reasons for reading him as Town (755 and 760 are good examples--that a new Mafia player would not create such a claim and that Mafia players don't often claim their true roles) would make good sense from a partner if karnos is Mafia. They don't make as much sense if karnos is Town and JohnnyFarrar is Mafia; that level of specificity is not needed to avoid lynching a Town player making that claim. One thing that I can say is that enough players have made noises about suspecting me that JohnnyFarrar should not be Mafia if his partners are not among them (that is, if all players muttering about me are Town and JohnnyFarrar is Mafia, then the Mafia players are missing an opportunity).

Persivul

has not been as active recently, but I don't see anything suspicious in his posts. The reason for the vote on JohnnyFarrar (658) seems to be a lack of helpful activity, which is a weak but not suspicious reason. My impression from 228 (Town) remains.

Wingback

was Sickofit1138. I agreed with most reads on entry in 452 (I noted the exception for the read on Mizzytastic in 494). He's been more open to what karnos was saying than I am, but the perspective sounds plausible from a Town player. The reasons given for the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 673 are essentially the same as above--a lack of helpful activity, which is easy to do as a Mafia player (reasons were given well before the vote, in 565). I still think that I'd lynch Kappy first.

MagnaofIllusion

has written quite a bit recently. I don't know how I'd analyze the association with karnos (expressing suspicion while not wanting to lynch the claim is where I am as well, but is plausible to me from a few other angles). His reasons for voting for JohnnyFarrar are good--better than most others on that wagon. While he also presents the inactivity angle in 750, he additionally noted the possible association between JohnnyFarrar and karnos in 740 and some wagon dynamics in 785). I'll call this a Town read.

qubixes

has been as close to a "gut read" as I get for some time now. He appears to be voting for JohnnyFarrar because MagnaofIllusion persuaded him to do so (754). I do not have a problem with MagnaofIllusion being the one to persuade him. In the spirit of avoiding confirmation bias I'll say that this is a weak read--but it remains a weak Town read.

MechaGoomba

also has reasons that are a bit stronger than average for being on the JohnnyFarrar wagon--essentially, that JohnnyFarrar is posting in a way designed to appear more analytical than it is (659). He acknowledges that some of the activity concerns are stylistic (716) but appears to have determined that this game's activity is less constructive than others' (769). I recall agreeing with him during the wagon on karnos. This is a Town read.

Overall

I'm content to wait a bit longer to try to sort JohnnyFarrar. If no useful action emerges for me to analyze, then I'll concede that I have no specific reason to oppose the lynch. I'm reading most of the players voting for JohnnyFarrar as Town (of them, I'd lynch Wingback first).

That's it for tonight. The MathBlade wagon is next.

[Dierfire]

MathBlade wagon next:

MathBlade

was rather committed to the vote on karnos, to the point of basing a number of reads on associations there. This is fine (well, not really fine, but there are good reasons to suspect karnos, and it's frustrating to let a suspect live due to role-related things). I don't like that MathBlade rolled this over into claiming that my sequence in 610 and 642 is suspicious regardless of whether karnos is Town or Mafia, especially as I feel that I've explained the sequence more than sufficiently. I really don't like that this doesn't extend to reading JohnnyFarrar as Mafia--I think that someone basing such associative reads on the presumption that karnos is Mafia should be fairly suspicious of JohnnyFarrar for stating suspicion of karnos without casting a vote. From the perspective of wagon dynamics, I also don't like the suggestion that JohnnyFarrar is Town, three suspicious players (me, Masquerade, and karnos) are not voting for JohnnyFarrar, and two are voting for MathBlade. That seems a bit strange (¿why are the Mafia players trying so hard to lynch MathBlade over JohnnyFarrar if both are Town?). There's enough here that I need to ask whether there's a good reason for MathBlade, as Mafia, to keep such focus on karnos and avoid the wagon on JohnnyFarrar.

Masquerade

I had read earlier (798, Null at that time). Since then, his offer to go directly against MathBlade feels theatrical (obviously the case against Masquerade advanced by MathBlade is wrong/weak/deficient in various areas, but the response feels overwrought to me). He also saw some of what I saw on Kappy (661) but hasn't come back to it (perhaps I could attribute that to the fact that Kappy is still largely absent). On the other hand, I feel that there are points to be made against MathBlade (certainly including some that Masquerade makes). Were his wish granted, I'd vote for MathBlade before I'd vote for Masquerade.

karnos

gets a temporary pass; I'm specifically avoiding putting further effort into reading karnos at this time.


---
Since I've read almost all of the players, I may as well finish.
The Bulge replaced Chumba. I was reading Chumba as Town, and The Bulge has been inactive.
I was leaning toward reading Saru as Town as well, but I should revisit this before proceeding (see below).
Kappy, of course, is my current vote.
---
I am reading so many players as Town that I could easily be wrong about someone, but the distribution of reads is also suffering from the fact that I'm punting on karnos. Unless I find something off when I read Saru, a vote on JohnnyFarrar certainly looks better now than it did last night.

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

There's enough here that I need to ask whether there's a good reason for MathBlade, as Mafia, to keep such focus on karnos and avoid the wagon on JohnnyFarrar.

Hmm. Well, MathBlade started making giant posts once the Johnny wagon was picking up speed; before that, their posting was reasonably restrained. Could be a sign of panic?
On the other hand, having the only two players who are under serious suspicion as scumbuddies seems far too convenient.

I agree. To clarify: having already noted that JohnnyFarrar would make a good partner for karnos, I'm disturbed by the way that MathBlade treats them differently--if all three are Mafia, I don't see a reason for MathBlade to be on the karnos wagon and not on the JohnnyFarrar wagon.

@MathBlade

I have a question about your approach to JohnnyFarrar. You seem to be making many reads based on associations with karnos on the presumption that karnos is Mafia. Given this assumption, why are you not suspicious of JohnnyFarrar, who vocalized support for lynching karnos but failed to cast a vote there (or anywhere else)?

[Dierfire]

Spoiler: @Wingback (if still following this game)

The underlined portions together suggest that I'm your second scumread after Kappy. Yet, nothing you said about me in this quote are reasons why I'm scum and could potentially be reasons for townreading me. Apparently you agree with all my reads but one. You think my perspective on Karnos is plausible from town, my reasons for lynching Johnny are apparently not scummy to you considering you don't find it suspicious when you thought Persivul said the same thing. So, how am I your second scumread? That read looks like you saw my list of points against you and decided you'd push me but couldn't come up with any reasons why.

The reason that this sounded like I was reading you as Town is because I was reading you as Town! When I said that I would lynch you first "of these" I meant "of these players, all of whom I am reading as Town" (that is, you were my weakest Town read, not my second-weakest Mafia read).

[Dierfire]

I still don't think that I want to lynch karnos today (in fact, having two VT flips should slightly improve his chances of being Town). His results (or lack thereof) are, to my mind, less important as a way of reading him than are his reasons for choosing targets (reasons for targeting Persivul in 994 are fine on their surface, I may eventually get around to evaluating the game state at the time to make sure) and, most importantly, the composition of the rest of the game as it is revealed over time (meaning the roles of the other players to flip).

[Dierfire]

@Firebringer

Did you read (any of) the reasons that Wingback gave for casting a vote for me?

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

My read for MathBlade is dominated by their frustration over the karnos lynch. If Math is scum, that frustration has to come from somewhere; not only would it be difficult to push a mislynch with such intensity, it wouldn't even be beneficial, because being that angry is a good way to get people to dismiss you. (I ignore the possibility that Math is bussing karnos because that would be incredibly stupid.)

Why would it be stupid for MathBlade to be behaving in that fashion as Mafia?
If karnos and MathBlade are both Mafia, it strikes me that placing the L-1 vote in 602 would look like a rushed attempt to be on the correct wagon, and the fact that MathBlade was reluctant to vote for JohnnyFarrar (giving a fairly abstract meta-defense in 893) while approaching others based on associations with karnos (presumed Mafia) would strike me as a failure to fully simulate a Town mindset.
If karnos is Town, MathBlade could be simulating frustration, and the fact that such a push is unlikely to succeed would not seem to me to be a problem if JohnnyFarrar (Town) is the only viable wagon.

[Dierfire]

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

[Dierfire]

EDIT: Whole thing goes in a spoiler while I try to see whether I just wasted several hours

Spoiler: Whole Thing

I'm revisiting my read on Saru first, since this is essentially a "gut read" from an argument with Persivul many pages ago.

The first thing I see is that Saru enters with lists of reads in tiers (111, 124), but these never return. This raises my suspicion, because I think that it suggests emulation of a thought process not organic to Saru. I looked for previous games and found nothing useful, sadly (I wandered through the ScoreHero forum from his Wiki page and found nothing, I found a game by Saru786 on MafiaHero in which said player died without posting, and then I gave up because I felt that the time delay would make it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions).

At the time of the extended argument with Persivul over "contradictions" (between 256 and 337 or so) I was reading Saru as Town for nebulous reasons. On further review I attribute this to tone; Saru maintained a focus on certain things (whether Persivul answers his questions, mostly) that I interpreted as aggressive and therefore more likely to come from a Town player. I no longer endorse that position; Persivul was one of the leading wagons at the time, so I could easily see the narrow focus (at times divorced from identifying motivations behind actions) as representing a desire to maintain position on a wagon. However, Saru leaves the wagon in 337 to join the wagon on Kappy, which reached L-2 with that vote. This was not a vote from nowhere (Saru expressed suspicion of Kappy in 237), and was not closely preceded by any other changes in votes, so I don't attribute that move to any nefarious motivation.

He agreed with cases presented against karnos (430 and on), which I also thought were reasonable.

At some point he decides that Persivul was providing good content (468), which is suspicious to me because the most recent read on Persivul prior to this (351) was Null, and I don't see anything from Persivul between the two that seemed so important to reading him (or any indication from Saru that he is reconsidering something from earlier). He later (753) states that he removed his vote after MechaGoomba cleared up a misunderstanding (300) but does not indicate why is reading Persivul as Town.

I've no issue with Saru taking time to decide whether to vote for karnos when karnos is at L-1 (587), though I don't understand what thought process might lead to lynching karnos if replacement players read him as Town (589).

Advocating a policy lynch on JohnnyFarrar (868, 877) looks fine to me; I can't think of a reason why a Mafia player needs to cast a vote there with such weak reasoning (JohnnyFarrar was the only wagon and was likely to be lynched without assistance). There's a possible exception if the wagon was entirely composed of Town players, in which case the Mafia may have collectively decided that votes would eventually be needed there.

I am suspicious of the bouncing read on qubixes (suspicious of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 895 and 917, Town in 923, casting a vote for him in 936 with renewed suspicion of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 938, qubixes is "a good lynch candidate" in 943 and obviously Mafia in 947, 1012, and 1042 but misguided Town in 1086). I'm not really inclined to accept the wave of the hand offered in 1086; acknowledging the changing read does not explain it. What was qubixes doing in those posts that was swinging the read so wildly?

In general I don't find that Saru appears to be attempting to discern alignments. I see few questions or directed interactions with other players that would indicate a proactive attempt to solve the game; rather, Saru seems to be reactive in all reads. This is potentially an explanation for some of those things that didn't display obvious nefarious motivation; these moves would support a reactive, coasting style.

I partially reviewed qubixes and Persivul in order to solidify my read here. I am reassured in some things that I found and am moving them to lower priority for reading.

[Dierfire]

No, we're still on.

@Saru

We've established that you feel that the case qubixes presented is weak. What has he said that changes your read so wildly between "weak argument from nefarious Mafia" and "weak argument from misguided Town" (preferably with examples)?

[Dierfire]

@Saru

Spoiler: Walls

The first thing I see is that Saru enters with lists of reads in tiers (111, 124), but these never return. This raises my suspicion, because I think that it suggests emulation of a thought process not organic to Saru. I looked for previous games and found nothing useful, sadly (I wandered through the ScoreHero forum from his Wiki page and found nothing, I found a game by Saru786 on MafiaHero in which said player died without posting, and then I gave up because I felt that the time delay would make it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions).

I would not try to look at ScoreHero or MafiaHero to understand my thought process as it stands today. Those games were from something like 5 years ago, and most of how I view things and people in a game of mafia have changed drastically since then. I don't actively try to play to any kind of meta shown in those games, mostly given that I don't even remember how I played in those games anyways, save for maybe one.

This is why I gave up on reading through those sites. My more important observation is that your tiered lists of reads have vanished. Why is that?

At the time of the extended argument with Persivul over "contradictions" (between 256 and 337 or so) I was reading Saru as Town for nebulous reasons. On further review I attribute this to tone; Saru maintained a focus on certain things (whether Persivul answers his questions, mostly) that I interpreted as aggressive and therefore more likely to come from a Town player. I no longer endorse that position; Persivul was one of the leading wagons at the time, so I could easily see the narrow focus (at times divorced from identifying motivations behind actions) as representing a desire to maintain position on a wagon. However, Saru leaves the wagon in 337 to join the wagon on Kappy, which reached L-2 with that vote. This was not a vote from nowhere (Saru expressed suspicion of Kappy in 237), and was not closely preceded by any other changes in votes, so I don't attribute that move to any nefarious motivation.

Yes, Persivul had some votes on him at the time, and I felt I could push him on something to see how he would react. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "maintain position" on a wagon. Do you mean I felt forced to give reasons why I was voting a wagon?

I mean that I could see your actions from a Mafia player who decided to be on the Persivul wagon and then went looking for reasons to stay there.

He agreed with cases presented against karnos (430 and on), which I also thought were reasonable.

At some point he decides that Persivul was providing good content (468), which is suspicious to me because the most recent read on Persivul prior to this (351) was Null, and I don't see anything from Persivul between the two that seemed so important to reading him (or any indication from Saru that he is reconsidering something from earlier). He later (753) states that he removed his vote after MechaGoomba cleared up a misunderstanding (300) but does not indicate why is reading Persivul as Town.

Good content doesn't always equal town. I never read Persivul as town? Johnny asked me who I felt a town leader could be. Scum can easily find themselves becoming a town leader through being solid in play and hard to argue against. While I didn't think(and don't think) that Persivul is scum, I felt that he could make a good town leader just by his posting early on in the game.

I don't find this explanation consistent with your 468. You said that Persivul had "good stuff throughout the thread" and I find it hard to believe that you meant anything more nuanced than "content likely to come from Town" there. JohnnyFarrar asked for a Town leader, and you gave him the name of a Null read without further embellishment?

--SNIPPING UNOBJECTIONABLE MATERIAL--

Advocating a policy lynch on JohnnyFarrar (868, 877) looks fine to me; I can't think of a reason why a Mafia player needs to cast a vote there with such weak reasoning (JohnnyFarrar was the only wagon and was likely to be lynched without assistance). There's a possible exception if the wagon was entirely composed of Town players, in which case the Mafia may have collectively decided that votes would eventually be needed there.

Just curious, do you think that the Johnny wagon was all town up until my policy vote on him? Because your 804 would suggest that you do. So I'm assuming you think the exception is what actually happened here.

Aye, I'm still having the "too many players as Town" problem. I'm considering that the wagon may have been all Town, but I'll keep thinking about it as I reevaluate.

I am suspicious of the bouncing read on qubixes (suspicious of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 895 and 917, Town in 923, casting a vote for him in 936 with renewed suspicion of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 938, qubixes is "a good lynch candidate" in 943 and obviously Mafia in 947, 1012, and 1042 but misguided Town in 1086). I'm not really inclined to accept the wave of the hand offered in 1086; acknowledging the changing read does not explain it. What was qubixes doing in those posts that was swinging the read so wildly?

The general reason for my read changing heavily on Qubixes was because of his vote on me right at the start of D2, which set off my scum read of him. I found it extremely odd that he would he vote me at the start given that he said he found you to be a much more viable lynch at the end of D1. The deadline can't be his excuse because he admits that it's not just the deadline that is keeping him from voting me, but also because he feels he can't lynch me regardless because I'm so town read. So what was it about N1 that all of sudden made me so lynch-able? Nothing that I see suggests that all of sudden I've become the scummiest candidate for the majority of people. Why do you think I suggest that he was just randomly voting me in 936, when it seemed clear that by his own thought process, he should have been voting you at that time. Everything from 936 to 1042 is me scum reading him. Although, even through all that, my gut said misguided townie but my brain said scum. After looking back on it all starting from the end of D1, I decided to go with my gut since it's just subconscious logic. I feel that someone like qubixes, if he were scum, wouldn't really play the way he has towards me. I feel like his reaction to me calling his Johnny vote scummy was genuine town frustration. Maybe he felt like he was being singled out of the wagon and found that unfair. That's what I'm starting to think. Me calling him "obvious mafia" was aggression, similar to what I did with Persivul in 283.

As I understand this, you are saying that this is a "gut read" based on things like tone/frustration. What I don't understand is why your "brain read" was Mafia. Why would a Mafia player be especially likely to vote you rather than me at that point (935), having stated suspicion of both of us?

In general I don't find that Saru appears to be attempting to discern alignments. I see few questions or directed interactions with other players that would indicate a proactive attempt to solve the game; rather, Saru seems to be reactive in all reads. This is potentially an explanation for some of those things that didn't display obvious nefarious motivation; these moves would support a reactive, coasting style.

I think early on I was trying to discern alignments. It is true that more in the middle and end of D1, I played more reactive. But I think my explanation in 895 explains as to why. It sounds like what you're really trying to ask me is who my scum reads are at the moment, which I'll provide in a later post after I look over some ISOs of certain players. The back and forth between qubixes and I kept me distracted.

I think that your explanation in 895 answers a question of activity level, but my question is one of proactivity--that is, whether you are attempting to discern alignments. You should be doing more than answering questions directed at you.

This goes outside the spoiler because it might be of more general interest.

I partially reviewed qubixes and Persivul in order to solidify my read here. I am reassured in some things that I found and am moving them to lower priority for reading.

Are your reads on them the same as they were in 804, or was that just in relation to the Johnny wagon? Would like to know where you stand on the people you're reading up on.

I'm still in the process of reevaluating, but a fairly representative scheme of where I am now would look like this:

TOWN

MagnaofIllusion
MechaGoomba
qubixes*
Persivul*
Firebringer*

NULL

Masquerade*

MAFIA

Kappy**
Saru
karnos***
MathBlade

* is for my ongoing update project
** is for Titus, whom I've not read yet
*** is for my perpetual punting on karnos

[Dierfire]

@Titus

Official Vote Count

Persivul

(4): Sickofit1138, ShadyHood, Saru, karnos

Kappy

(4): Chumba, Persivul, Dierfire, MechaGoomba

Sickofit1138

(3): Snork, species, Kappy

karnos

(2): Mizzytastic, qubixes

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 15:59:49)

Chumba is being replaced

Sorry for the lack of vote counts, work has been kicking my ass. Hopefully fixed.

I would be VERY surprised if all of these were town.

I would also be surprised, but I'm more suspicious of you than I am of Persivul. Are you able to explain why I should vote for Persivul instead of you?

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

I appreciate your insights in 1011. My thought is that it's possible for the Mafia team to walk the line between "planned bus" and actually lynching the player. That is, I think that a Mafia player pushing a Mafia player is happy to achieve that lynch for credit

or

to achieve distance without incurring the cost of the lynch.

Anyway, I'll be trying not to make associative reads with karnos since I'm committed to not lynching there now. This leaves me considering the position given by MathBlade in 893. Everyone is read by association with karnos except the leading wagon, JohnnyFarrar, who gets a meta read. This feels to me like an attempt to avoid being on the wagon of a Town player.

[Dierfire]

@Firebringer

Did you read (any of) the reasons that Wingback gave for casting a vote for me?

[Dierfire]

VOTE: MathBlade

[Dierfire]

@Saru

1. I don't think that we're discussing the same thing when we discuss tiered lists. In your first two posts, you created lists of this format:

{Chumba, Mizzytastic}
{Persivul, Snork}
{Everyone else}
{Kappy, MechaGoomba}
{Sickofit1138}

Based on the fact that you used this format at the beginning of your first two posts, I assumed that it would be one of the primary ways that you organize your thoughts. Since then it has not reappeared. I am suspicious of this because it makes it seem that your method of organizing your thoughts is not consistent and perhaps that these lists were fabricated.
Obviously I do not agree that a lack of tiered lists in general is suspicious (else I'd be pursuing players who never posted even one). Your attempt to note that I haven't put out a list of tiered reads in response looks like "counterpunch" here and increases my suspicion.
I disagree that I've only been agreeing or disagreeing with other thoughts. As examples of things that I've done proactively (by which I mean things that I do to help me read other players--also note that I make a distinction between activity, which is reflected in things like post counts, and proactivity, which is reflected in the content of those posts), I offer: my questions to Kappy in 355 and 394, trying to understand the read on Mizzytastic that Wingback gave (494), looking into old games of karnos to see whether his phrasing in his own "counterpunch" was stylistic (558), working to lock karnos into a claim (642), prompting JohnnyFarrar for content to read him better (712 and 720), probing for reasons why MathBlade didn't use associations with karnos to read JohnnyFarrar (892), and discussing your read on qubixes (1101).
You said that you read my ISO and didn't find anything proactive; did you read these and dismiss them?

2. I'm not interested in arguing about definitions of "Town leader" but I do want to compare your stated definition to your actions. JohnnyFarrar asked who was "Town leader" and you gave him the name of a Null read (Persivul) without further elaboration. If you feel that "Town leader" can be of either alignment, why did you not mention a read on Persivul to JohnnyFarrar? Would it not have been important to say whether the "Town leader" was a Town player or a Mafia player if you're using a definition that makes both equally likely?

3. You're saying that your "brain read" on qubixes was wrong. I want to know what reasoning you had at the time, for which is not sufficient to tell me why you're reading him as Town now.

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

If you feel that I've not provided specific reasoning to explain "relatively important things" then you should ask me about my reasoning for those things.
You mentioned my read on JohnnyFarrar in 804 and 823. At the time of 804 I was reading JohnnyFarrar as perhaps slightly suspicious, but as I mentioned, I was working primarily with associative things and meta-things. This is why I was prompting him for content in 712 and 720. I didn't get much.
When I finished working through the list in 823, I decided that a vote on JohnnyFarrar looked better than it had previously because I would assume that a Null read being voted mostly by Town reads is more likely to be Mafia.
For both of those posts, it would be inaccurate to say that JohnnyFarrar and MathBlade were "my two Mafia reads at the time" (karnos and Kappy would also be there, although, as I mentioned in 823, karnos is a perpetual punt and Kappy had been absent long enough that I didn't have any further update to that read).

[Dierfire]

@MathBlade

Combined with my strong Saru town read I would suspect that Dierfire is mislynch hunting.

I went looking for your reasoning and I found only this:

Saru -- Strong Town lean -- Post 326 -- This post screams town to me. They read the argument presented, logically break it down, and reiterate their point in such a way that is clear concise and to the point. Side note: 330 made me laugh like hell. Thank you As the McDonald's theme song goes...ba ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it.

Is that still the basis for your read?

---
Also, while reading I found this--my apologies for the delayed response.

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

I still don't think that I want to lynch karnos today (in fact, having two VT flips should slightly improve his chances of being Town). His results (or lack thereof) are, to my mind, less important as a way of reading him than are his reasons for choosing targets (reasons for targeting Persivul in 994 are fine on their surface, I may eventually get around to evaluating the game state at the time to make sure) and, most importantly, the composition of the rest of the game as it is revealed over time (meaning the roles of the other players to flip).

...A town read isn't something you "rescind". It is not a gift. It is something you have or you don't. I am not begging to be a recipient of your town read. Writing a lot is not an indication of town else everyone would plainly see I am the towniest town to ever fucking town. No. Instead is how you play the game that should give people pause and reread. Furthermore assuming you aren't right about your reads? What changes?

Does Karnos become town? Kappy? Me? This looks like a big attempt to get out of jail free card of any accountability:

I think that you're getting at the "each correct, some incorrect" idea here, which is where I was going as well.
If the state of the game provides me with some reason to think that I'm likely to be reading a Mafia player as Town, my first thought is to check my Town reads again to see whether they need updating. I agree that this wouldn't necessarily tell me whether any specific Mafia read is incorrect, but it couldn't hurt.

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba again

I've spent too long being unproductive.
VOTE: Dierfire

@Dierfire: You listed four scumreads in 1153, in order from scummiest to least scummy: Titus, Saru, karnos, and MathBlade.

Why did you focus to such a great degree on Saru, compared to MathBlade, when Math was a scumread of much greater intensity?
You have me and Magna as very strong townreads and MathBlade as a strong scumread. In that case, what do you think of my conflict with Magna over Math?
You've said that you can't read karnos, but are still scumreading him. Were you more confident in your karnos read day 1, when you participated in his wagon?

Those reads are not listed in order of suspicion.
I'm working on Saru most recently because that's a Town read that recently changed into a Mafia read.
I thought that your conflict with MagnaofIllusion over MathBlade was similar to your comments to me about MathBlade; Town players are allowed to disagree, and I don't see anything suspicious about your reasoning for reading MathBlade as Mafia. I don't find it persuasive, but I believe that your reading of MathBlade's tone/frustration/such is as you've stated.
I was perhaps slightly more confident in my read on karnos D1. I'm more or less planning on punting until flipped roles give me a good idea of how a Town Neapolitan would fit.

[Dierfire]

@MathBlade

No. I was getting at calling you a wishy washy flake not standing up for anything definitively. You are still doing that as MechaGoomba said in 1199.

Furthermore my Saru read is based upon the sheer amount of effort and consistency they are putting into their posts.

I'll fix the first when I finish updating, I hope.
The second makes me sad--I went searching two forums for old games by Saru and I don't get read as Town for effort?

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

I hope to address most of your objections when I finish updating (except that at this time I've no plan to address your objection to me reading both you and MagnaofIllusion as Town). I can fix one thing now.

- MathBlade.

In 823, you argue they're scum with Johnny.

Since then, you've primarily pushed them by countering the arguments of their defenders without engaging directly.

I think that I clarified the underlined here:

I agree. To clarify: having already noted that JohnnyFarrar would make a good partner for karnos, I'm disturbed by the way that MathBlade treats them differently--if all three are Mafia, I don't see a reason for MathBlade to be on the karnos wagon and not on the JohnnyFarrar wagon.

I felt (and still feel) that MathBlade could be Mafia with karnos. At the time I also felt that JohnnyFarrar would be a good partner for karnos, but that MathBlade would not be Mafia with both karnos and JohnnyFarrar.

[Dierfire]

@Saru

I'll wait for your promised list of reads.
I think that you asking me for a list of reads is a fair question--I'm not sure why I'd ever refuse to disclose my reads.
I'm not sure how else to phrase this thing about "Town leader" here. To me it would make most sense that if I were using a definition of "Town leader" that did not specify alignment, I would distinguish "Town leader who is Town" versus "Town leader who is Mafia" versus "Town leader who is Null" when answering that question.
So, if I understand you correctly, you initially read qubixes as Mafia for overreacting and saying things that you felt were contradictory, then thought that there were/was too many/much mistakes/overreaction for qubixes to be Mafia?

[Dierfire]

MathBlade actually makes an interesting point about Daytalk, although I can't recall any posts that sound like they were written in collaboration.

[Dierfire]

I suggest that the timing of my posts would make them hard to write in collaboration. I've rarely been posting while others are active, and most of my posts come in sequential bursts.

[Dierfire]

That logic seems off to me. Are you saying that a Mafia player would be unable to lie about this?

In that case, do I fix the problem by saying:

I'm writing my posts by myself, without collaboration, because I am Town.

[Dierfire]

So when someone suggests it I go "talk to the hand because your bullshit in my ears gives me a headache".

I hope that I've never said anything of the kind in any game. I don't think that I have.

[Dierfire]

That's it for me tonight.

[Dierfire]

Dierfire, the aliens must have jacked my criticism of your townread of me.

I don't understand what this means.

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

MathBlade actually makes an interesting point about Daytalk, although I can't recall any posts that sound like they were written in collaboration.

Here, what Dierfire is doing is essentially asking for examples. By saying "I can't recall any posts", he is putting the onus on MathBlade to dig up posts that support their theory.
I don't like this reaction. A more townie reaction would be "My posts look edited because they were. I make long arguments full of links; if I didn't proofread before posting, they'd be incomprehensible."
The way he reacted, he is asking "Can you prove it?" But he easily could have said "That isn't a scumtell" or even "I don't do that; I don't edit my posts. I don't know where that impression came from."

When town are accused, they respond with a statement. "No, I did not do that." "Yes, I did that, but it is not a scumtell." They are saying "this argument is wrong" because they know it is wrong.
Scum respond with questions. "Can you prove it?" "Do you have specific examples?" They say only "This argument is weak" because they know it is right, even if it is right for the wrong reasons.

If I were trying to ask MathBlade for examples, I'd ask MathBlade for examples. Also, why would I be trying to "recall" my posts? I could just look at them myself.
MathBlade said something that I hadn't expected--I hadn't been reading any posts to see whether they sounded like they were written in collaboration. My 1218 is me saying that I can't recall any posts by

other players

that would fit with a collaborative composition. My response to the accusation about my posts is in 1220, not 1218. I think that this is the only way that you could read my "interesting point" bit as making sense.

[Dierfire]

I'm dodging the prod and returning within 12 hours.

[Dierfire]

I return.

I see that I'm at L-1 with hammer intent from Titus.
I claim VT.

I'm working on catching up now.

[Dierfire]

Ah, it's over.

Well, it was not a stellar game on my part, but I am proud of a few things here and there. I wish that I hadn't lost my temper with MathBlade, and I probably should have listened to MechaGoomba and taken a closer look at MagnaofIllusion.

Congratulations to the Mafia players, and apologies to the Town players!

@Mod

Thanks for running the game!

[Dierfire]

@MathBlade

Thanks for the kind words!

@qubixes

I thought that you did pretty well. Your case on karnos was part of what eventually persuaded me to make that vote, and I had no difficulty reading you as Town. Throughout the game, you were concise without losing substance, which is one of the things that challenged me in this game.