Newbie 1723 - Game Over!

[Vecna]

Wait wait wait, did Rb and Vecna just start a wagon on Harry for no apparent reason as their first action?

Meèeeeeergh

[thenewearth]

Uh vecna no please

[Ircher]

Day 1 VC #4

Vecna (0) -
e_is_cool (2) - Earth, Franky
Harry (1) - Vecna
Skold (1) - Rb
Franky (0) -
rb (0) -
Parabola (0) -
Earth (1) - Parabola
Nacho (1) - Skold
Not Voting (3) - Harry, Nacho, e_is_cool

Lynch Threshold

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline

Day 1 ends on July 16, 2016 9:30 PM EST DST+1 or in (expired on 2016-07-16 21:30:00).

Mod Notes

Mod will be V/LA from 7/10 to 7/18 and 7/25 to 7/29.
SirCakez will manage in my absence.
Prodding Nacho (2d 15h); Nacho has (expired on 2016-07-10 11:05:18) to respond.

[Nachomamma8]

Catchup incoming.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: what do you think of parabola so far?

Parabola seems fine so far. Why did you ask about Parabola specifically?

Note 1: must look at both his scum and town meta of receiving early votes/pressure.
Note 2: thenewearth has been the most talked-about/scum-read player so far.

Did you do either of these things?
TNE is a "she", btw.

Uneasy with this snap-shot of everyone - some observations were more info/activity-led than alignment indicative-led.
No direct interactions thus far with any players though.

I don't think that this is an unreasonable place to be at this point in time; most players haven't really done a whole lot of note quite yet and it's not like Faaaalcon ignored any events that were particularly interesting. Are there some things that Faaalcon should have picked up on but didn't?

@Vecna, you came out swinging and never stopped last game you played as Town, what's changed now?

Why ask this question before Vecna posted?

[thenewearth]

Fluffing

Technically I'm a "He" but I prefer "She" in the internet because MMORPG reasons

I don't mind being called anything

[Franky]

Vecna I don't know what you're trying to pull but it's annoying stop it.

@Nacho: what do you think of parabola so far?

Parabola seems fine so far. Why did you ask about Parabola specifically?

Note 1: must look at both his scum and town meta of receiving early votes/pressure.
Note 2: thenewearth has been the most talked-about/scum-read player so far.

Did you do either of these things?
TNE is a "she", btw.

Uneasy with this snap-shot of everyone - some observations were more info/activity-led than alignment indicative-led.
No direct interactions thus far with any players though.

I don't think that this is an unreasonable place to be at this point in time; most players haven't really done a whole lot of note quite yet and it's not like Faaaalcon ignored any events that were particularly interesting. Are there some things that Faaalcon should have picked up on but didn't?

@Vecna, you came out swinging and never stopped last game you played as Town, what's changed now?

Why ask this question before Vecna posted?

You you think he's helpful town win the game?

Do you feel no inclination to try to change this situation? Or do you think we can find scum by just waiting for them to Skip clearly?

[Nachomamma8]

The quote is already in there. I bolded it for you because I'm nice, but I don't believe for a second that you don't remember your own quote, or that you just missed that it was already quoted in a line of discussion that was specifically about it.

I'm assuming that e was driving at is that you should quote where you've seen something that like that before, as you implied with the "scum deja vu" comment; this is something I'd also be interested in. Also, why didn't you answer what you thought of Parabola yet?

Right so Nacho is noncommittal as heck, I don't know if he's keeping himself up to date, but all criticism seems to come from an IC perspective rather than a scumhunt perspective and even any scumhunting I've seen and doesn't have anything backing it up. Hella scummy, seems like Nacho is hiding behind an IC barrier as an excuse not to play. Want fast followup on this one.

My opening has been non-committal because there hasn't exactly been a whole lot of things to commit to early game.
Dirty Harry has been active and asking questions which could possibly be a reason for an early townread if he was a new player, but he isn't.
It seems pretty likely to me that TNE being wrong about RQS being scummy isn't something that's more likely to occur if she was scum; there is no motivation whatsoever for scum to lie that hard when making a push on page 2, so I'd expect the LAMIST line of thought to be something that she believes regardless of alignment.

I could have chosen to open the game and push all of the small leans that I have strongly regardless of alignment, but I've chosen to play this game more conservatively than usual; this doesn't mean that I won't contribute to game solving as much as I would normally, but it does mean that I will dramatically cut down on saying things just to say things.

I normally like early aggression towards the IC in general, but your line of thought that I would need to hide behind IC theory as scum suggests that you think that I'm a weak player, which downplays that towntell a bit. I also think that you have an uneven approach to me/Vecna that I don't understand; why is me not contributing significantly in the first three pages present a larger concern than Vecna avoiding contributing significantly through "BEAEHFFEEHFEEHFEEHFEEEEE"? Why did you let Vecna slide after Vecna continued with the "BEEEEHEEEHEEHEHEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH" after you asked Vecna to explain?

82 - Dirty Harry is not being neutral because he said he leans towards the latter. Which is him saying it's a scumtell.
89 - Scumlean is not neutral. Nobody should go gung-ho over nothing so it makes more sense to have just leans with this little information

These two points don't actually seem like valid criticisms; my town is different from your town and my null is different from your null.
Sure, no one should so gung-ho over so little information (although you seem to think that I am supposed to go gung-ho over so little information unless I'm not fully comprehending your read on me), but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to say that "avoiding going gung-ho" looks a hell of a lot like "staying neutral".

90 - Ask questions don't dismiss the read altogether because they haven't posted quotes. Kills discussion, stalls, game wastes time as people get together the posts they had in their head.

I don't understand how e not scumhunting the way that you wanted him to is equivalent to a scumread.

I can't tell between badtown and scum here butthose last posts are awful.

And this in particular seems like a ridiculous exaggeration; you think that calling someone who gave a scumlean neutral is awful?
Or do you think asking Franky to quote where he saw the "scum deja vu" quote before is awful?

[Nachomamma8]

You you think he's helpful town win the game?

What is this referring to? If you're trying to respond to a specific point, you can highlight the words that you want to respond to and press the quote button.

Do you feel no inclination to try to change this situation? Or do you think we can find scum by just waiting for them to Skip clearly?

There is a pretty wide gulf between "playing conservatively" and "sitting on my thumbs waiting for something interesting to happen". I didn't feel like I had to force-start this game because it seemed to be unfolding reasonably at a pace all of its own. Do you think that was unreasonable?

What is your current read on Parabola?
Where have you seen scum say "it's because of my meta, not because of my alignment" before?
Why didn't you answer these questions when they were initially asked?

[Nachomamma8]

1) He misremembered his own argument about why he's not scum. This implies he made it up on the fly to find a good response to earth, which is very scummy.

2) He was trying to paint me in a scummy light by implying I was misquoting him. This is also very scummy.

This is a bad attack; e's meaning was pretty clear, and even if you didn't get it the first time, he clarified in 112 and instead of reading his post, you dismissed it. You said that e saying "it's not due to my alignment, it's due to my meta" gave you scum deja vu, which implies that you've seen it before. E is telling you to link him to where you've seen it coming from scum before.

And e_is_cool what the hell even is 112? Show me where a scum has said this or it's not a scumtell? There are 1700ish completed games in Newbie forums. I'm sure if I dig through enough things scum has said I can make literally anything is a scumtell. That's terrible criteria and a terrible defence. And I really don't see the point in defending against a terrible argument that won't hold.

Franky's argument is that e_is_cool is scum for saying "that's due to my meta, not due to my alignment" because he's seen scum do it before. e is saying that he wants to see where Franky saw scum do it before. What does the number of Newbie games played on this site have to do with that argument?

Your argument that town shouldn't defend against an attack they think is horrible is nonsensical; your opinion on other people's posting shouldn't have anything to do with whether you respond to them or not because thoroughly refuting arguments is a very key part of getting people to evolve their reads. If you ignore them, they have no reason to change their read.

I'll just let you figure out what you're missing on your own. Not worth the time.

I will warn you that mafia games are generally pretty intense games and that statements far worse than "your push is stupid" are tossed around pretty frequently.

The neglection of this particular game makes me lean the latter.

Game-specific V/LAs in general are fraught with WIFOM, but I don't think that she would take a V/LA in this game and not others simply because she wanted to lurk the pressure off as scum.

I actually really dig Franky's switch to e, timing and mindset-wise
I won't follow but I like it

I agree.

2. To his point on Nacho, he's not saying much. He's debating the finer points of other people's logic but I don't see him doing anything that would make him Town.

Why is this a reason that you dislike Skold?
The argument seems to be that his point on me isn't anything revolutionary (and I agree), but I also don't see why that would be a point against him.

4. Very quick to TR Dirty Harry after he gets 2 quick votes. Looking for towncred if he ends up lynched maybe?

I don't think this is a strong point; I think the only way that Skold things that Dirty Harry is close to being lynched is if he's a weak reader of game flow, and I don't think that's the case.

[rb]

@Vecna, you came out swinging and never stopped last game you played as Town, what's changed now?

Why ask this question before Vecna posted?[/quote]

Because he hadn't posted.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think Vecna is doing with the change in play?

[Errantparabola]

I'm not asking for "pressuring and calling for deaths". I'm asking for reads. Keeping your cards close to your chest will waste town time. I don't think we should play day 1 like we can afford even one mislynch, especially since we have no idea which PRs we have. You never know, other townies with much less experience could use your reads in a more efficient way.

Not to mention that by keeping your cards close to your chest you're crippling our ability to scumhunt you, and by consequence our ability to trust you.

I'm going to disagree here with you, and I think it's because I'm not making my intentions clear.
Here's where I'm at right now. I have expressed several things that I found scummy from tne and e. I have also expressed at least one townread, rb and implied that I thought Franky did some good town things. I'm getting inklings of people that are scum but I'm not confident in those reads. That's why I don't want to say them just yet. I don't think just pumping out full readslists when I have no comprehensive reasons to read a good chunk of people is going to help at all.
We're not going to end D1 without me expressing all of my current reads, if that's what you're worried about.

also tne pls read the goddamn game thx

[rb]

2. To his point on Nacho, he's not saying much. He's debating the finer points of other people's logic but I don't see him doing anything that would make him Town.

Why is this a reason that you dislike Skold?
The argument seems to be that his point on me isn't anything revolutionary (and I agree), but I also don't see why that would be a point against him.

4. Very quick to TR Dirty Harry after he gets 2 quick votes. Looking for towncred if he ends up lynched maybe?

I don't think this is a strong point; I think the only way that Skold things that Dirty Harry is close to being lynched is if he's a weak reader of game flow, and I don't think that's the case.[/quote]

Because he's doing exactly the thing he says is bad as well.

Where'd I say he thinks he's close to being lynched? I said

if

- as in, if there's some eventuality whereby Dirty Harry gets lynched he could leverage it for town-cred. Doesn't mean that I think he thinks that he's getting lynched soon.

[rb]

It's official, I have no idea how to use the quote tags on this forum

@Nacho, I have no idea what Vecna's doing tbh.

[Nachomamma8]

Can't get followup from nacho without wagoning him?

Problem isn't the lack of posting, the problem is the lack of content within said posts.

This didn't answer Errant's question; Errant said that they already understood your point, but was asking specifically why you thought you needed to vote me in order to get followup from me.

Nacho posts that have any content at all are 31 32 and 76 and are mostly theory and easy to answer questions. In 31 he discusses RQS in 32 he discusses scumhunting techniques and in 76 (when the discussion has matured beyond this) he discusses RQS vs RVS. He hasn't contributed to the game despite being active.

I discussed RQS vs RVS because e implied that he was curious in the difference between them. Questions are content; Dirty Harry's original approach to e made it seem like he hadn't seen RQS before and was impressed by it in general and yet wasn't participating, which seemed like a contradiction between mindset and answers. His followup showed that he was experienced and thus probably knew that RQS was useless and instead his read was based on e's initiative despite being a new player, which is a reasonable enough perception. Franky's question to e seemed strange because it implied that there was something significant to be found on the first page, but I found his response that he thought it was weird e thought Harry couldn't have found anything on the first page to be reasonable enough. If you are arguing that the only valid form of content is conclusions, then you are wrong; questions help you understand mindsets and situations better, and a good early game should be far more centered around questioning than it should be centered around conclusions.

[Nachomamma8]

Quote tags usually look like this:

Code: Select all

[quote="Name"]This is a quote![/quote]

which means that if you don't have an equal number of opening quotes and closing quotes, you have the weird things that happened in your last two posts. If you're responding to specific statements, I'd suggest the highlighting and pressing quote thing that I live and die by.

[rb]

Quote tags usually look like this:

Code: Select all

[quote="Name"]This is a quote![/quote]

which means that if you don't have an equal number of opening quotes and closing quotes, you have the weird things that happened in your last two posts. If you're responding to specific statements, I'd suggest the highlighting and pressing quote thing that I live and die by.

I do highlight and press the quote thing, but then it comes up unquoted anyway.

Example of intended quote.

[rb]

Well I'll be fucking damned, it worked.

[quote=rb]Another example because I can't believe it worked.[/quote]

[rb]

Ohhh, I need the " " don't I?! I UNDERSTAND FINALLY.

*******END OF FLUFF POSTING*********

[rb]

I'm going to disagree here with you, and I think it's because I'm not making my intentions clear.
Here's where I'm at right now. I have expressed several things that I found scummy from tne and e. I have also expressed at least one townread, rb and implied that I thought Franky did some good town things. I'm getting inklings of people that are scum but I'm not confident in those reads. That's why I don't want to say them just yet. I don't think just pumping out full readslists when I have no comprehensive reasons to read a good chunk of people is going to help at all.
We're not going to end D1 without me expressing all of my current reads, if that's what you're worried about.

also tne pls read the goddamn game thx

Not that I don't like being townread, but I feel like I've done sweet fuck-all this game to actually be read as town. How come you're town-reading me? Almost seems too easy tbh.

[Nachomamma8]

My concern with Vecna's approach to the game right now is that it is limiting its communication pretty heavily; Vecna was pretty actively engaged in its last game, whereas in this game Vecna is certainly active, but is also apparently pushing a serious suspect that doesn't really appear to be a popular one but all of its reasons for pushing are lost in weird noises.

I understand that switching up playstyles and giving yourself a self-imposed post restriction in mafia can be entertaining, but I don't think that your current post restriction gives you the communication skills necessary to play effectively; would you mind choosing one that doesn't inhibit your speech so much?

[Franky]

You you think he's helpful town win the game?

What is this referring to? If you're trying to respond to a specific point, you can highlight the words that you want to respond to and press the quote button.

I was refering to the parabola conversation. Thought it was obvious considering it's your first point in that multiquote, and our only ongoing conversation at that moment. (I also made that post from my phone)

Do you feel no inclination to try to change this situation? Or do you think we can find scum by just waiting for them to Skip clearly?

There is a pretty wide gulf between "playing conservatively" and "sitting on my thumbs waiting for something interesting to happen". I didn't feel like I had to force-start this game because it seemed to be unfolding reasonably at a pace all of its own. Do you think that was unreasonable?

I do not think what you just said is unreasonable. However, I do think being less active isn't the best play for town regardless of reasons.

What is your current read on Parabola?

Null.

Where have you seen scum say "it's because of my meta, not because of my alignment" before?

In werewolf face to face games when I was attending cop school. This constitutes the majority of my mafia experience btw. It's worth mentioning though that it was more along the lines of "it's because of my personality, not because I'm a werewolf".

Why didn't you answer these questions when they were initially asked?

E didn't ask a question. He stated that if I can't quote it, it didn't happen. I felt no obligation to explain what he didn't ask about.

And you didn't ask for a read, you asked why I'm asking about parabola, which I was going to answer after I finished inquiring about him. But it's good to know you were fishing for a read without asking clearly. Btw, do answer my last question about parabola, the one you didn't understand to whom it was referring.

1) He misremembered his own argument about why he's not scum. This implies he made it up on the fly to find a good response to earth, which is very scummy.

2) He was trying to paint me in a scummy light by implying I was misquoting him. This is also very scummy.

This is a bad attack; e's meaning was pretty clear, and even if you didn't get it the first time, he clarified in 112 and instead of reading his post, you dismissed it. You said that e saying "it's not due to my alignment, it's due to my meta" gave you scum deja vu, which implies that you've seen it before. E is telling you to link him to where you've seen it coming from scum before.

His intent wasn't clear at all. Not to me at least. And the only person who might have been trying to clear up the misunderstanding did it by calling me stupid. Which is the entire reason I missed e's clarification post since I quoted 111 before reading 112, and posted 113 therefore not having 112 on my screen until I reread the page, after posting 116 and before posting 117. And yes, I did dismiss it in 117. At that point I was too angry to indulge him with a voluntary explanation when he couldnd't bother being clear himself in the first place. I also didn't continue scum hunting him though.

I'll just let you figure out what you're missing on your own. Not worth the time.

I will warn you that mafia games are generally pretty intense games and that statements far worse than "your push is stupid" are tossed around pretty frequently.

Thanks. It seems I did screw up by allowing myself to get angry.

[Skold]

Won't do much the now cause I need to get some sleep but stuff has happened.

Unvote: Nacho

Not clear and I'll get back to specific posts but you're back and active and making actual content so I'm fine for tonight. Vecna didn't get a pass he got one more post because I don't want him to stop having his silly fun. But he does need to actually play now especially since he went over his allotted silly posts and their is plenty he can comment on.
@Nacho your last post before this surge of activity was during a discussion in which you didn't contribute. I don't like that both Nacho and Parabola are playing deliberately conservatively I don't think it'll help and it does make me nervous but as long as there is something they're doing I won't take it further.

Vote: Vecna

FOS: Nacho

@Parabola - Why is the fact that I was in your newbie game bad? Took me a while to get to this so sorry if you've forgotten.
G'night.

[thenewearth]

e has literally just been defending his meta right now

#30: Meta Defending + Soft Telling how scum should play
#34: Future Meta Defending + Covering Scums with WIFOM
#57: Still Trying to Defend his meta
#82: WIFOM'ing Self
#89: Wants to use My own Meta
#139: He's still trying to defend his Meta and is now trying to dismiss it
#146: Quotes Others to prove his point of his meta

Yeah I don't really get why people keep saying this guy is town