Newbie 1723 - Game Over!

[Vecna]

E_is_cool, you vanished for quite a bit. Do you think its possible to also provide some arguments why Skold and TNE are scummy that dont involve me? Or do you only think so because of the way they have been responding to me? If so, what do you feel sets them apart from Franky/RB or our lurkerbrigade?

[Vecna]

Franky, can you explain why you are scumreading both me and TNE? Do you feel there is any scenario possible where were both scum and are just pretending here? Or do you feel that one flip wil confirm the others allignment?

[Franky]

I'm scum reading you both because you both did scummy things. Yes, inducing more town paranoia and distraction is scummy, no matter how long you spend explaining how the switch can help bait scum. That said, I don't see any scum relationship between you and earth so far. (emphasis on so far)

[thenewearth]

pedit TNE: No you're not or I'll join that wagon. Be a good girl and answer the questions. We're playing some mafiascum today.

The thing is that question is subjective

So no I'm never gonna answer a subjective question

Skold and TNE are pretty suspicious, so I'll just VOTE: thenewearth.

Because I don't have any reads and I'm just gonna go for the wagon that's working

I fixed that for you

So how can you guys see that e cannot be scum?

[thenewearth]

That said, I don't see any scum relationship between you and earth so far. (emphasis on so far)

So its basically admitting that if I flip town then vecna is your semi-conf-scum?

[Franky]

I have about 16 days left to decide who I want to lynch next. Discarding that time and deciding now would be anti-town.

And these random jumps in logic are exactly why I think you're scum, earth.

[Skold]

The thing is that question is subjective

So no I'm never gonna answer a subjective question

Obviously the fucking ''how has my D1 been worse than yours'' nonsense. The ''why did you tunnel on e, why did you swap back onto Vecna after saying it's bad lynch bait''. Plenty people including myself have stupidly presumed your motives. Answer the questions yourself.

[e_is_cool]

E_is_cool, you vanished for quite a bit. Do you think its possible to also provide some arguments why Skold and TNE are scummy that dont involve me? Or do you only think so because of the way they have been responding to me? If so, what do you feel sets them apart from Franky/RB or our lurkerbrigade?

TNE has basically been tunneling on me the entire game, and the first vote basically said that she would not take her vote off of me. And, for Skold, it's mainly for this post:

Lynch Priority is: e > harry > Nacho > Vecna

I can take an E lynch and a Vecna lynch and if it's Nacho or nothing I'll bite that bullet

but I do want to see much more from Nacho before the 15th. But I'm not lynching Harry. Nothing he says seems to come from a scummy perspective, the WIFOM nonsense isn't even a case worth mentioning but I'll give it it's due here and overall I see him as town.
ps: I want to start lynching on the 15th because that gives us actual time to let less active people actually vote before the day is done. I don't want a no lynch because no showers didn't vote a lynch-able target.

So, you're willing to jump on whatever lynch there is? Sounds pretty bandwagon-y. And scummy too.

Skold and TNE are pretty suspicious, so I'll just VOTE: thenewearth.

Because I don't have any reads and I'm just gonna go for the wagon that's working

I fixed that for you

So how can you guys see that e cannot be scum?

I did suspect Skold before, and you too.

[rb]

Not lynching Vecna today. His input has fast become better than almost everyone else in the game. Don't like his methods but I'm putting his as nulltown.

Franky, do you have a scumread on Vecna that isn't based on multiple day's old evidence?

[rb]

Tbh the problem I have with it is that Vecna supplied examples of Town games and no scum games. Who's to say he doesn't pull this shit as both Town AND scum?

Concerns the fuck out of me that you don't even consider that Skold.

VOTE: Skold

RB - you are right I supplied examples of town games, but youre somewhat wrong about my intention.

As I stated in that post, I did so to once and for all shut down the argument that what I did can have NO MERIT to town, -ever-.

-WHICH IS BULLSHIT-

Its a very decent scumhunting mechanism, and it can provide very adequate results. That is all I wanted to show with the links. Dont construe it as anything else, since that is indeed just weak wifom.

I also played three games on that site as scum, and I did not use any similair tactics in those. Does that prove anything? Absolutely not, since it was role madness, reverse mafia, and my very first game of forum mafia ever. I can link them if youre really desperate to compare them, but its useless anyways. Dont use those games to draw the conclusion " he did it as town then, he must be town now ". Use them and think "ok, so it can have very usefull results as town, clearly it does not automatically have to be seen as anti-town".

Yo man, chill. I wasn't actually attacking your intentions there, I just said I didn't like painting Earth as being opportunistic. I still put her as a scum-read but I also want people to have good reasons for things. You have to understand that while you can provide reasons that you think are good, other people can't read your mind and so it's impossible for me to not question and push you to be clear. In any case I'm slight townreadinng you now so I'd prefer to co-operate at this point. Everything that needs to be said about the game has been said, people obviously disagree and no amount of fighting is going to change that.

As for those people stating I did not provide a case against TNE, I did! apparently I didnt phrase it quite simply enough for people to get the point I was making.

Check his ISO to see why im stating this, I cba finding post numbers again.

-START OF GAME: only tunneling on E_cool.
-Mid day1 (AFTER MY SHEEP SHIT): "Vecna is only lynch bait, no priority, bad lynch -> Lynch one of these other 3 scum candidates"
-Late day1: Without me even typing in the thread WHATSOEVER after his mid day1 statement -> Vecna is top scum, must lynch.
-After I start contributing: Refusal to answer any questions or attempting to counter my statements, capslock typing, selfvoting, complete tunnel on me with the only reason suddenly being the sheepshit. (which he called a bad lynch himself earlier).

Notice also, I DO NOT SCUMREAD PEOPLE JUST FOR VOTING ME.

I look at the reasons provided, the logic supplied, the -proces- of coming to their decision to vote for me. This is where you can recognize scum (when done propely), notice for example that I have a strong townread on RD, who also wanted to lynch me badly.

My name's RB, not RD

And those reasons are fine.

In my earlier post, I explained why exactly I think the change of behaviour is very properly explained by a scum allignment.

You know all too well how powerfull it can be to distance yourself from a lynch as scum RD, which is what I think she tried to do. When the lynch was not going through quite so easily yet she joined in, for the exact same reasons stated earlier that made me a bad lynch. When called out on it, she goes into a frenzy and well.....

Anyways im going to stop with the investigation into TNE for now and focus on other crap. Ive made my case, ill keep pushing it, ill answer questions about it - now its time to find the other scum.

I'm worried about confbias here, but yeah I agree with you. Her self-vote was really really bad and I actually saw it as more scum-motivated than town because it'd end the day before deadline. Plus plays like that manipulate people's emotions and create dichotomies that don't actually exist in reality. It becomes, "VOTE ME OR HIM, DO IT!!" when in reality any town player has 8 viable players to vote for, not just those 2. The problem is a lot of dumbtown do it too, which mystifies me and I wish they didn't, but they do.

[rb]

My problem with e_is_cool is that he's basically copying my scumread of Skold.

[rb]

And his problem with Skold is crappy.

It's good for players to point out who they do or don't want to lynch near deadline and the things he's saying don't indicate that he's willing to jump on "whatever bandwagon".

[Franky]

Not lynching Vecna today. His input has fast become better than almost everyone else in the game. Don't like his methods but I'm putting his as nulltown.

Franky, do you have a scumread on Vecna that isn't based on multiple day's old evidence?

No, not really. But I wouldn't call this old evidence just yet. It is getting older, and the point I made first about it being small in the grand scheme of things is getting stronger, but I still think it should be kept in mind for a while longer, considering this is my first time playing with Vecna.

[Dirty Harry2]

I'm finally home.
I will be doing a thorough catch-up, then voting.

[Vecna]

well this is pretty uneventfull today.....

[rb]

I'm finally home.
I will be doing a thorough catch-up, then voting.

Confirmed World's longest catch-up.

[Franky]

well this is pretty uneventfull today.....

I'm just waiting to see how many days "in a second" means in Skold's calendar.

[Dirty Harry2]

Page 10

thenewearth: "Plus keeping it a secret helps town"
thenewearth revelling in his superior "mindgames".
Reading that as arrogant-town.
Happy to look past his apparent contradiction in reads (null indicative)


Page 11

@Nacho - I saw healthy paranoia in Errant being suspicious of his "surface-level" town play. We later see it was heavy-game theory, but Errant then directs that theory to Skold.
Regarding my "switch of style"?
I do not understand.

Nacho: "Your perspective over the "scumlean =/= neutral and that's it" is annoying."
Is Nacho challenging people's alignment or how correct their perspective is?

Skold: "And I'm not touching the scumlean-neutrality debate anymore because it wastes time and it was a mistake to start it."
Phew. Good call.

Page 12

thenewearth: "Also if Vecna is actually town then he's the worse lynch bait ever"
Indeed.
The only scum motivation to explain his playstyle is WIFOM.

Errant: "if I told you that I was skeptical on your conclusion on tne's slip, what would you say? What is your opinion on the rest of the town not also jumping on tne because of this?"
Sceptical is fine.
I too wanted thenewearth to explain his discrepancy in read versus observation.
I will answer the 2nd question after thenewearth flips.

Rb: "That's what I took from her post, and it makes sense that she'd question him on it and try to figure out what's going on."
I love Rb getting into the mindset of thenewearth here.

[Dirty Harry2]

I'm finally home.
I will be doing a thorough catch-up, then voting.

Confirmed World's longest catch-up.

We have time.

[Franky]

1. Never said she wasn't scummy, said your case sucked 2.

I am scumreading you because you've shown weird interactions with Vecna

(I'll quote below in a second) and because this case is really bad. 3. Because I only read your ISO because I'm not here to dismantle your case on TNE I'm here to decide if it's scummy 4. Never said that 5. IDK why it's a bad question, it's a bad question. And most of your questions read like they're impossible to be answered because they read like they don't fit in this thread. 6. I do have problems with TNE's argument against e_is_cool. I made my own case, read my ISO or don't even talk about what my stances are.
Overall:

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS? WHAT THE ACTUAL CRAP FRANKY?

Like seriously, why do you think TNE didn't answer these questions? Because of my post here. I'm not responding to you anymore this is stupid.
pedit: That seems reasonable.

Now that I've took some distance from my not reading the ISO mistake, I can't help but wonder:

1) Where are these quotes? And why aren't you pursuing your scum read on me? Is it because I said I'll be revising my read on you?

2) You state you're scum reading me, and then you react like there could be no scum motivation behind me misreping you? In the same post?!!!

[Dirty Harry2]

Page 13

thenewearth: "And Vecna and Harry are really interchangable so I just adjusted accordingly"
thenewearth doesn't mind openly juggling between 4 wagons.
But happy to vote for the wagon with the most momentum.
@Errant - is this what you call surface level opportunism?

Scold " I'm not sure I like any townreads on me."
I do not town read you... yet.

Scold: "I'm willing to lynch anybody yes."
WIFOM says scum would not openly admit this...

Vecna: "i'm still fairly disappointed by the overall response that it has gathered"
Lynch-bait is lynch-bait.
No pro-active scum-hunting is no pro-active scum-hunting.
There is no right response to your playstyle.
As 'town', how do you seperate the townies wanting your policy lynch - and the scum pushing your miss-lynch?

Any other thoughts on the make-up of your wagon?

Vecna: "My #1 townread so far is RB."
Mine too.

[Skold]

1. Had a look into it and it basically hinges on Vecna being scum. Since upon actually thinking I concluded there is no way scum would do this for at best 2 for 1 me and TNE for himself and only a slight chance of TNE and Vecna both being scum with TNE being the bus to confirm Vecna so working from that assumption is stupid. Vecna is most likely town, we'll just have to see if his strat is worth thinking about in future games or is just a gimmick that works occasionally.
2. ''react like there could be no scum motivation behind me misreping you'' I didn't say that. Or act like it. I said ''where are you getting this'' because the questions sucked regardless of alignment. How does saying your questions suck imply I don't think you're scum? Franky's questions are being very surface level and not telling whatsoever. IDK if he's getting want he wants from them but I don't like this behavior.
@DirtyHarry WIFOM says nothing. Ever. Otherwise I like that post a lot.

[Skold]

I kind of think it's my fault TNE swapped to the Vecna wagon cause I was waxing lyrical about a no lynch when we still had plenty time left. Might of spooked her idk.

[Dirty Harry2]

Page 14

Vecna: "Have seen scum do this as well before, pretend they just go afk but park a vote on their partner"
Yes, I've seen that too.

Vecna: "RB, the only reason I knew I could probably pull this off - and was willing to take the risk is because you have played with me before"
I fully believe this - but does that make Vecna cocky-town or cocky-scum?
I'm leaning cocky town.
I see it as a dangerous game-solving gambit.

If Vecna is scum he's town-cleared Rb and thenewearth.
This makes me sceptical of scum-Vecna.

[rb]

I like Skold dying Day 1.