Newbie 1723 - Game Over!

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: My replace-in meta in Newbie games, for Vecna and/or DH

N1624 (VT, midD2) - @DH: some examples of what me ACTUALLY townreading my predecessor looks like; @Vecna: I replaced in and immediately started pushing someone I thought was scummy and

literally everyone else

thought was Town (spoiler: I was right). Also "interesting."
N1565 (Cop, midD1) - This one's worth reading for ravyn's defensiveness - look familiar? Also, again, I replaced in and immediately started pushing someone I thought was scummy and

literally everyone else

thought was Town (spoiler: I was right (again)). I had to actually claim in that game to get people to stop scumreading me so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this one.
N1546 (Goon, N1) - I stalled the fuck out of this one; also my partner fakeclaimed and got lynched and I couldn't backpedal fast enough.
N1520 (VT, lateD2) - Replaced in, guy everyone thought was Town was scummy, I pushed him (spoiler: correctly). I did fuck this one up at the end though.
N1510 (JK, midD1) - Replaced in, stalled, called a claim too late, had pretty bad reads mostly.
N1496 (VT, midD2, N slot) - Stalled until it was too late.
N1487 (Goon, lateD2, SE slot) - The game in which I learned the value of misdirection!
N1479 (VT, midD2) - Replaced in, pushed someone most people thought was Town (spoiler: was so, so wrong).
N1377 (VT, earlyD2) - Failed to make any strong pushes. (TBF, my account was only 9 months old at the time.)
N1326 (VT, midD1, SE slot) - Said a dumb thing about CCs which sort of rendered me a lame duck except that I also led the winning wagon.
N1305 (Goon, lateD2, N slot) - I was a Newbie, this is only here for completeness and [redacted].

[Vecna]

Past succes is no guarantee for the future, and i really just don't see it here. I'll try and keep an open mindin case you start becoming compelling but atm I'm not convinced. On DH that is.

[Loopdan]

V/LA until Friday

This weekend is very likely to be a "catch up in all mafia games and other sort of stuff" type of weekend; setting aside tomorrow in order to make that possible.

Looking forward to seeing a proper reads list from you again......Better not wait until the last 4 hours again though

Agreed. We need full reads from Nacho. The game is going nowhere until he gets actively engaged in the game. I specifically want to hear Nacho's take on goodmorning's entrance and approach to this game.

[Loopdan]

Spoiler: My replace-in meta in Newbie games, for Vecna and/or DH

N1624 (VT, midD2) - @DH: some examples of what me ACTUALLY townreading my predecessor looks like; @Vecna: I replaced in and immediately started pushing someone I thought was scummy and

literally everyone else

thought was Town (spoiler: I was right). Also "interesting."
N1565 (Cop, midD1) - This one's worth reading for ravyn's defensiveness - look familiar? Also, again, I replaced in and immediately started pushing someone I thought was scummy and

literally everyone else

thought was Town (spoiler: I was right (again)). I had to actually claim in that game to get people to stop scumreading me so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this one.
N1546 (Goon, N1) - I stalled the fuck out of this one; also my partner fakeclaimed and got lynched and I couldn't backpedal fast enough.
N1520 (VT, lateD2) - Replaced in, guy everyone thought was Town was scummy, I pushed him (spoiler: correctly). I did fuck this one up at the end though.
N1510 (JK, midD1) - Replaced in, stalled, called a claim too late, had pretty bad reads mostly.
N1496 (VT, midD2, N slot) - Stalled until it was too late.
N1487 (Goon, lateD2, SE slot) - The game in which I learned the value of misdirection!
N1479 (VT, midD2) - Replaced in, pushed someone most people thought was Town (spoiler: was so, so wrong).
N1377 (VT, earlyD2) - Failed to make any strong pushes. (TBF, my account was only 9 months old at the time.)
N1326 (VT, midD1, SE slot) - Said a dumb thing about CCs which sort of rendered me a lame duck except that I also led the winning wagon.
N1305 (Goon, lateD2, N slot) - I was a Newbie, this is only here for completeness and [redacted].

OK, so you are a scumhunting ace in Newbies.

But your walls are hurting your chances of convincing me rb is scum. Can you give me a succinct case on rb. I don't mind challenging my priors and we certainly have the time.

[goodmorning]

@Vecna: I didn't claim it was (you'll notice a couple where I replaced in and pushed wrong). Why didn't you answer my questions in 674?

OK, so you are a scumhunting ace in Newbies.

But your walls are hurting your chances of convincing me rb is scum. Can you give me a succinct case on rb. I don't mind challenging my priors and we certainly have the time.

Only very recently, and even then I usually only catch the one everyone misses.

I quote-stripe. You can either deal with it or not. Succinctly: I think DH (I'm assuming that's who you meant) is Scum for a few reasons:
1. DH reminds me a lot of how I play as ICScum; that is, he prompts a lot of other people to provide content but doesn't provide a lot himself. He also pads out his posts by stating facts rather than opinions.
2. Early on he took few stances, and the ones he did take were mostly pretty soft.
3. I think he uses 10 words where 5 would do. I'm aware some people don't agree.
4. The snap dismissal of Faalcon's (pretty good for a Newb) readslist.
5. The (probable) fake townslip and his reaction to me pointing it out.

[Dirty Harry2]

Four words.
goodmorning is bad town.

[Dirty Harry2]

I need a few more words.

Pushing a vanity wagon is my only concern while ignoring the pressing issues of D1/D2.

My "Fascinating/unexpected degree of entry" comment about her reads can be explained by her:
- stubborn and self-righteous use of false paradigms/logical fallacies
- amusing clutch to short-sighted assumptions in regard how anti-town/pro-town actions are alignment indicative.
- why not just bus your scum-team mate?
- why create a counter vanity wagon?
- there is no reward D3
- does she realise her scum meta is not the universal scum template?
- does she realise not having strong stances on a non-productive D1 is not alignment indicative?


I do not see scum pushing this badly on town.

I do see a player over-confident about her mafia-game-ability.
But the ego-centric attitude is abhorrent.
Leading to no constructive interplay.
This false confidence leads her down an alley of spiralling blind confirmation bias.
Cute.
Very cute.
But undeniably bad.
Not bad scum.
Given her join date.

Posting a greatest hits list of her newbie history is shameful and tactically grotesque.
Demonstrates how deep confirmation bias has set in.
Immoderate self-conceit has festered.
Consider this post a helping hand.
This is a team game.
You need to stop projecting your personal prejudices.

[Dirty Harry2]

Past succes is no guarantee for the future, and i really just don't see it here

goodmorning's relentless use of logical fallacies is comical.

[Dirty Harry2]

Skold.
Post.
Or you will replaced.

Nacho is sinking deeper into the pit of PoE-scum.
I hope he demonstrates that he wants to solve the game soon.
If he converts me into a believer I will sheep.

[Dirty Harry2]

Pre-flip association:
Not seeing e_is_cool and loopdan as scum-scum.
That would be very impressive/dynamic scum play if partners.

[goodmorning]

I'm VERY familiar with vanity wagons.
This isn't one.

Just because you claim I've made fallacious arguments doesn't mean I actually have.

I'd say "please try again" but I'd really rather you didn't.

[Ircher]

Replacing Skold (SE) who failed to pick up the prod.

[Ircher]

Day 2 VC #7

Vecna (0) -
e_is_cool (2) - Vecna, Loop
Harry (1) - Morning
Skold (0) -
Loop (0) -
Goodmorning (2) - Skold, Nacho
Nacho (0) -
Not Voting (2) - e_is_cool, Harry

Lynch Threshold

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline

Day 1 ends on August 2, 2016 5:30 PM EST DST+1 or in (expired on 2016-08-02 17:30:00).

Mod Notes

Mod is V/LA until 7/29.

I will probably be around, but not for a very long time during that period. Please address SirCakez if any issues arise during that time.

Skold is being replaced.

[Dirty Harry2]

I'm VERY familiar with vanity wagons.

Judging by your past games you are an expert.

[Vecna]

@Vecna: I didn't claim it was (you'll notice a couple where I replaced in and pushed wrong). Why didn't you answer my questions in 674?

Why didnt you answer MY questions in 674? All you did was hide behind Nacho's actions as an excuse not to answer my questions, and try to divert my questions with some dumbass hypotheticals. I dont care about the hypotheticals, I want you to explain your actions.

My questions are a lot more important than your silly rebuttal "why did you ask the same question twice".

[Vecna]

Also, DH, I dont agree with your assesment. I think its very likely that she's trying to mimic her past town-game to divert attention from her scum-read slot by trying to appear as "bad town" as you put it

[Dirty Harry2]

Also, DH, I dont agree with your assesment. I think its very likely that she's trying to mimic her past town-game to divert attention from her scum-read slot by trying to appear as "bad town" as you put it

"mimic her past town-game" - Interestingly, I wanted to lynch goodmorning for posting this:

[My replace-in meta in Newbie games, for Vecna and/or DH]
N1624 (VT, midD2) - @DH: some examples of what me ACTUALLY townreading my predecessor looks like; @Vecna: I replaced in and immediately started pushing someone I thought was scummy and

literally everyone else

thought was Town (spoiler: I was right). Also "interesting."

But I feel it was more because I despised her lack of logic and humility (not alignment).
I do not believe in D2 policy lynches.


Look at the 5 reasons why goodmorning scum reads me.
It is nonsensical and farcical:

I think DH is Scum for a few reasons:
1. DH reminds me a lot of how I play as ICScum

goodmorning thinks her ICScum meta = my scum meta.
That is absurd.

2. Early on he took few stances, and the ones he did take were mostly pretty soft.

Taking few soft stances early on D1 is not scum-indicative.
Especially when it is a low-productive lurk-out D1 frenzy.
I believe I had only one strong read on D1.

3. I think he uses 10 words where 5 would do.

Why is using 10 words instead of 5 scum-indicative?
I use as many words to successfully get my point across.

4. The snap dismissal of Faalcon's (pretty good for a Newb) readslist.

Why is analysing Faalcon's readslist scum-indicative?
Is Faalcon's slot town?
I still stand by my observation.

5. The (probable) fake townslip and his reaction to me pointing it out.

This was no "fake" town-slip.
I predicted that if thenewearth was to die, his ISO would be limited.

Do you honestly expect scum to be pushing those 5 points as a reason to lynch town?
Do you expect town to sheep her 'logic'?


Null-town-lean. Bad town.
Annoyingly that slot will never be night-killed now.
However, if we lynch scum today I will revisit my 'pushing a vanity wagon' theory.

[goodmorning]

@Vecna: I didn't claim it was (you'll notice a couple where I replaced in and pushed wrong). Why didn't you answer my questions in 674?

Why didnt you answer MY questions in 674? All you did was hide behind Nacho's actions as an excuse not to answer my questions, and try to divert my questions with some dumbass hypotheticals. I dont care about the hypotheticals, I want you to explain your actions.

My questions are a lot more important than your silly rebuttal "why did you ask the same question twice".

Why do you get to have a reaction test and I don't? That doesn't seem fair. Also, the hypotheticals are reasonably important and I'd really like you to answer them anyway.

That was a genuine question, not a rebuttal. I want to know - why

did

you ask the same question twice in one post? It's unusual. It's unnecessary. And I think it's worth looking into.

--

re: DH 691: lol@ you cherry-picking your arguments. Especially #1, really?

It's slightly annoying that you keep trying to insult my capacity but mostly entertaining so keep it up if you want; there's only one possible reason

why

that's the route you took, and I'm sure everyone will figure it out eventually.

[Loopdan]

Goodmorning and DH looks like TvT or SvS. And since I have a pretty strong townread on DH, I'm going with TvT.

Nacho needs to participate or replace. This game is boring.

[Ircher]

Faalcon is replacing Skold (SE). Note that this was originally Faalcon's slot, and Faalcon never gained access to the dead thread or any other potential spoilers when originally replaced.

[goodmorning]

loopdan you're going to need to explain that

[Dirty Harry2]

Ircher, please can you update the VC.

Didn't catch that mistake earlier; it should be fixed. Please bold future questions to me or send them by pm.
~Ircher

[Ircher]

Prodding e_is_cool (3d 0h) and Nacho (2d 13h). They have (expired on 2016-07-31 10:17:09) to respond.

[Vecna]

Are all games on this site usually like this? Because if so this will definately be my last game on here

[Nachomamma8]

What if Nacho is not a student but mafia.
Vecna assigns a three page paper to Nacho and says it is due in two weeks at 3:00 PM.
Nacho avoids working on the paper because he wants to see thenewearth misslynched.
At 11 AM, Vecna refuses to accept any more papers and gives Nacho a 0.
Do you see why this is problematic?



We only get judged on what we do in the moment.
Timing.

There is no reason why I would avoid commenting on TNE's play as scum if I wanted to see him mislynched; he was playing poorly, he did a bunch of things that had fairly obvious scum motivation, that means that I could push and I could have a reasonable push and that's content that I'm producing. Yes, I said I would have a reads list by the end of the day and I didn't have a reads list by the end of the day but the reason that ended up happening should be incredibly obvious to anyone that's reading context.

Outside of his D1 gameplan, I feel like Vecna and I are on the same wavelength on many posts/players.
This is usually a personal town-tell for me.
He is not today's lynch.

It seems more like you're townreading Vecna for being one of the few players to not frustrate you in an intense way as opposed to anything more significant than that.

Claiming you never got around to it because someone finally hammered with only 4 hours left to go is nonsense.

Let's say Nacho is a student of Vecna's.
Vecna assigns a three page paper to Nacho and says it is due in two weeks at 3:00 PM. Nacho avoids working on the paper until later because he has work that is larger and scarier and he knows writing the paper won't take him longer than an hour (he's already mostly done with the prep work). At 11 AM, Vecna refuses to accept any more papers and gives Nacho (who hasn't yet begun working on his paper) a 0. Do you see why this is problematic?

This analogy only works if the school has a known policy that due dates can be shortened at anytime by the public votes of a majority of students.

And one of those students said "hey, don't shorten the due date, I'm currently working on my paper as we speak" - should I have expected Franky to quickhammer there?

28 DH is kinda wordy.

How is being wordy indicative of alignment?

literally everything on this page is just clearing up misunderstandings and/or TNE related. Actually it's kinda weird everyone going after TNE for ostensibly implying a scumread was Town when 206 from DH actually looks much scummier IMO but I do have the benefit of hindsight.
ftr post 206 has DH tell his scumlean that they might get nightkilled.

I don't think that the scumread was town implication was all that scummy (although it seemed weird at the time). I don't think that implying that a scumread might get nightkilled is particularly scummy when he didn't imply that him getting nightkilled was probable; do you?

This looks like a fake townslip. @Everyone else: do you also think this looks like a fake townslip?

I'm having trouble grasping why on earth you would think that this is a legitimate line of attack.

In the quote I referred to as looking like a fake townslip, you imply that you think TNE was NK'd. TNE was not NK'd. TNE was lynched. You have previously demonstrated correct usage of these terms. You have previously demonstrated precise knowledge of the events of this game.
The picture is very clear, despite your attempt here to muddy it.

Why would DH as scum who is universally townread, attempt to fake a townslip here? Why would the townslip he faked be "oh, I thought TNE got nightkilled?" when he was a universal scumread D1 and Harry was obviously engaged enough in the game to realize that he was lynched and not nightkilled? I don't think that your perspective on this vote shows that you're critically thinking and it sure as hell doesn't look like a genuine push to me.

I need Nacho's reactions to my implications more than you need to know what they are right now. Patience.

I've missed your implications, but I'll reread your posts shortly to find if there's anything significant that I'm missing.

Four words.
goodmorning is bad town.

Goodmorning is not a bad town player in any sense of the word; assuming that she's town because she's making a strong push on a townie when there are easier pushes to make is a mistake when her push doesn't make any sort of the sense. At the end of a day, if you look at a player's actions and divorce those actions from their reasoning, you will end up with bad reads an overwhelming majority of the time.

loopdan you're going to need to explain that

This.