Newbie 1723 - Game Over!

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Post Post #700 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:33 am

Post by Dirty Harry2 »

In post 699, Nachomamma8 wrote:How is being wordy indicative of alignment?

I don't think that implying that a scumread might get nightkilled is particularly scummy when he didn't imply that him getting nightkilled was probable; do you?

I'm having trouble grasping why on earth you would think that this is a legitimate line of attack.

Why would DH as scum who is universally townread, attempt to fake a townslip here?

Why would the townslip he faked be "oh, I thought TNE got nightkilled?" when he was a universal scumread D1 and Harry was obviously engaged enough in the game to realize that he was lynched and not nightkilled?

I don't think that your perspective on this vote shows that you're critically thinking and it sure as hell doesn't look like a genuine push to me.
Agree with all observations.

Lack of logic and 'critical thinking'.
No 'legitimate' alignment indicative accusation raised.
Quintessential vanity wagon.

Bad town or obvious scum?
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Post Post #701 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:37 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 687, Ircher wrote:
Day 2 VC #7Vecna (0) -
e_is_cool (2) - ,
Harry (1) -
Skold (0) -
Loop (0) -
Goodmorning (2) - ,
Nacho (0) -
Not Voting (2) - e_is_cool,

Lynch ThresholdWith 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

DeadlineDay 1 ends on August 2, 2016 5:30 PM EST DST+1 or in (expired on 2016-08-02 17:30:00).

Mod Notese_is_cool was prodded (3d 0h). E_is_cool has (expired on 2016-07-31 10:17:09) to respond.
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Post Post #702 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:43 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 698, Vecna wrote:Are all games on this site usually like this? Because if so this will definately be my last game on here
In terms of activity/replacements? No, this is on the heavy side, and Newbie games tend to have more problems in that arena anyway.

@Nacho :
Being overly wordy can be an attempt to keep people from reading your posts too closely.

I didn't say people thinking that was scummy; I said it was weird. I didn't say DH's implication was scummy either; I said it was scummier than the TNE one.

I'm having trouble grasping why you didn't provide an explicit opinion.

Because someone replaced in and called him Scum, and going from "universal townread" to "suspected by one person" is a bigger fall than any other. He panicked slightly. (Also, if he was really Town, I'd expect him to have just gone, "whoops, mistyped that" rather than going through about 6 different misreps to avoid the allegation altogether.)

The implications are obviously Vecna-related but I think I mentioned you in all of them so you can probably ctrl+f (or whatever the mac shortcut is for that) yourself in my ISO to find them.

p-edit: lol @DH again; wtg with that reading comprehension, friend.
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Post Post #703 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:55 am

Post by Dirty Harry2 »

In post 699, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 619, Dirty Harry2 wrote:Outside of his D1 gameplan, I feel like Vecna and I are on the same wavelength on many posts/players.
This is usually a personal town-tell for me.
He is not today's lynch.
It seems more like you're townreading Vecna for being one of the few players to not frustrate you in an intense way as opposed to anything more significant than that.
I will concede that I freely accepted his reaction test as a 'town' gambit.
My attempts to white knight him have failed.
I will go through the points/players he is pushing that I agree with if you would like.
Similar mutual vibes I experienced with rb.
If he has pocketed me I'd prefer him alive at MYLO as he posts freely.
His early D1 play did frustrate me.
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Post Post #704 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:18 am

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In post 702, goodmorning wrote:He panicked slightly. (Also, if he was really Town, I'd expect him to have just gone, "whoops, mistyped that" rather than going through about 6 different misreps to avoid the allegation altogether.)
The only panic I experienced this game was when thenewearth flipped town.
His town flip underlined inadequacies in my D1 contributions.
My correct town-read of rb has encouraged me to scumhunt by PoE D2, given the flow of interactions.

"I'd expect him to have" - and that is where your game falls short.
It is plagued by personal prejudice,
logical fallacies,
confirmation bias
and vile ego.

"Avoid the allegation"?
Your illegitimate "allegations" are illogical
and lacking 'critical thinking'.
I have answered everything with clarity and conviction .
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Post Post #705 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:40 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Thoughts on Dirty Harry:

is Dirty Harry's response to the e_is_cool challenge asking him why he asked me how I expected scum to interact this game. On an entirely surface level, I find the question about interactions to be slightly more likely to be coming from town than scum; very rarely do I see scum asking me how I plan to catch them in this game simply because it's an awkward question to ask, most people are afraid to ask a question that could get them heat like that. I see possible motivation for him asking that question as either alignment and although it's been a while, I'd still be interested in what he was looking for (if anything) when he asked it in the first place. On a level that's something other that's entirely surface, I liked the depth of his response to e_is_cool; it would have been fairly simple to dismiss the question as dumb or use it as a weak point to attack him with, but Harry instead townreads e for being willing to take a strong stance on him early and I find that to be a pretty natural reaction.

Dirty Harry scumreading TNE for "neglecting this particular game" in looks pretty town in that he put in extra research early (TNE was posting like crazy in other games at the time) but never mentioned that this was something he did and didn't capitalize on the point overly hard; this seems much more likely to be how town would approach the situation than how scum would approach the situation. For one, I'm not sure that scum would think of looking to check to see if a player is posting elsewhere during their VLA and for two, if they did somehow think to do that, I'd imagine they'd make a much bigger deal out of it than a throwaway comment like that.

This isn't really a Dirty Harry point, but I don't see how his snapshot of Faalcon's readslist was unreasonable. The only real read that Faalcon provided was that he thought e_is_cool was town which is nice and all but isn't exactly something I'd expect a newer player to pick up on immediately.

I liked his push of Skold's townread of him in ; I don't think this is how a player who was scumread by quite a number of players at that point reacts to a townread on him, and find his observations on Skold and me in to be pretty sensible, and the one accusing Skold of automatically assuming Franky is town is one that seems like a different tact than most scum take normally.

I'd be pretty impressed if Dirty Harry decided to sneak something like this in one of his posts:
In post 183, Dirty Harry2 wrote:Currently thinking: it will be hard to lynch Nacho.
is also part of what I think bothers goodmorning about him having a fairly cautious playstyle and not a whole lot of townreads, but this is an example of Harry having plenty of reads and simply hesitating in what to push. I don't think that this is scummy (he's willing to put his neck out to call quite a number of players scummy and has understandable reasoning for all of it); I think it's more a matter of playstyle. I think this is something that GM has the ability to recognize.

The difference between Harry's "If you are nightkilled..." and TNE's "Thanks for giving scum some WIFOM" is first of all, the difference in conviction; Dirty Harry brings up the possibility that TNE will get nightkilled, TNE suggests that Harry gave scum the chance to make a kill that could harm the town further. At no point in the game did Harry act that there were no other worlds than ones where TNE was scum whereas TNE acted like his E/Harry team was the scumteam wrapped with a bow, and thus it makes sense why the strong flip would be more widely scumread than TNE's. Why did you think that Harry's was scummier @goodmorning?

Harry's early town-read of ErrantParabola for translating their theory on surface-level town to Skold seems genuine and deep to me; again, not really a townread that I think scum would possess.

His reads good to me tonally.

I thought that his opening to Day 2 looked pretty strongly town; he presented a very strong push to solve the game and get contributions from people. Again, his e_is_cool read (reading him as town for a complete lack of survival to survive the next day after it looked like scum motivation for D1 play was simply to live one more day) was more in depth reasoning that's protecting a pretty obvious mislynch target - I think that it was, again, more likely to be coming from town, and I especially like how he expressed how frustrated he is without pushing them as a scumread; it is incredibly easy to tie together frustration with someone's play with your scumread of them and add a genuine edge to your push; Harry isn't doing that at all and that's a pretty positive point in my book.

Posts like are again are posts that I townread pretty heavily even though the logic supporting those townreads seems pretty silly; am surprised that goodmorning hasn't brought anything like that into account.

I liked him questioning Loopdan about how he thought different people contributed to TNE's mislynch to see if he would correctly slot in Dirty Harry (a universal townread) as someone who contributing to the TNE indirectly was an interesting approach, and, again, not an angle that he would adopt as scum.

I liked him telling Skold that he would be pushing him tomorrow in ; another post that looks good tonally.

I don't think that Dirty Harry's response to Goodmorning's push on him looks anything like scum; there's good conviction, there's a great deal of frustration and confidence in attacking to the push in kind. I don't see panic. I don't see where he's skated on giving opinions this game. I don't think that there is a very good chance that he's scum at all.
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Post Post #706 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:18 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 702, goodmorning wrote:Being overly wordy can be an attempt to keep people from reading your posts too closely.
Can be an attempt to keep people from reading your posts too closely, but it's much more common that wordiness is more linked to playstyle than it is to anything else. If Dirty Harry had nothing but impenetrable walls that droned on forever and ever, then I would be more willing to buy into your post, but his style is perfectly accessible and is nothing near the likes of Bulbazak, Skullduggery, or VoidedMafia walls. Where are a few specific examples of points that he's made that you think demonstrate him being overly wordy to stop people from reading his posts too closely?
In post 702, goodmorning wrote:I'm having trouble grasping why you didn't provide an explicit opinion.
No, it's obviously not a fake townslip. Harry has alluded to the TNE
lynch
upwards of 10, 20 times. Scum don't try to fake a townslip after they've demonstrated knowledge of it upwards of 10, 20 times. The point that he was making was not "I was right that TNE was going to be nightkilled", it was that "I was right that TNE should have provided more information to help us down the road".

I'm not sure how you mistook "what you are doing is not a legitimate attack" as anything other than "I don't agree with this push".

Your argument that you forced him to making a fake townslip is a bit ridiculous. I mean, look at it from Dirty Harry's perspective. He's universally townread, he's scum. Someone replaces into the game, and makes a case on him. He goes "holy shit, she's scumreading me, I need to do something to get townread! Let's fake a townslip pretending that TNE was nightkilled even though that I was demonstrated that I was aware he got lynched YESTERDAY.". Yes, going from universally townread to one player scumreading you is a big fall, but not one so significant that you would feel the need to fake a townslip to get them off of you, and, again, this is something I'd expect you to be completely aware of if you were town.

I'm not sure why you want me to respond to the Vecna line of reasoning that Earth is to blame for his own mislynch; I think that Vecna seems like the type of player who would probably have trouble accepting responsibility for mislynching. Do you think that it's a scummy line of thought or do you mean to say that I'm doing a bad job as IC by not correcting it?
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Post Post #707 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:21 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 703, Dirty Harry2 wrote:I will go through the points/players he is pushing that I agree with if you would like.
I would like this.
I'd also like to hear your opinion on his e_is_cool push, since that is a place where your opinions differ.
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Post Post #708 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:33 am

Post by Loopdan »

In post 693, Loopdan wrote:Goodmorning and DH looks like TvT or SvS. And since I have a pretty strong townread on DH, I'm going with TvT.

Nacho needs to participate or replace. This game is boring.
In post 695, goodmorning wrote:loopdan you're going to need to explain that
I don't think it's likely that scum!goodmorning replaces in and goes all-in on a player who is town-read by most other players... unless it is distancing, which would be SvS. But I read DH as town, so it's likely TvT. I've considered it could be scum!goodmorning's attempt to distract from her partner's wagon, but busing seems like a better option in these circumstances.

Take my analysis with a big grain of salt. I'm pretty sure I'm the least experienced player here.
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Post Post #709 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:46 am

Post by Loopdan »

E logged in this morning and this is the only game he is playing in.

Yet no post to avoid the replace-out.
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Post Post #710 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:01 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 708, Loopdan wrote:I don't think it's likely that scum!goodmorning replaces in and goes all-in on a player who is town-read by most other players... unless it is distancing, which would be SvS. But I read DH as town, so it's likely TvT. I've considered it could be scum!goodmorning's attempt to distract from her partner's wagon, but busing seems like a better option in these circumstances.
I agree that replacing into the game and tunneling the towniest player is more likely to be an action coming from town than scum. However, the reasons why goodmorning is pushing Harry as scum don't really seem like reasons that she'd subscribe to as town, and while it's completely possible that scum would make a strange play in order to go for some "mafia wouldn't do that" cred, it's hard to see goodmorning as town making a push like this without copious drinking being involved somewhere.

I'm also not sure I like how she's tried to read me this game; she dismissed me as town early based on a single post that I've made and then seems to be trying to strengthen her read through a series of weird looking reaction test-esque ways that I don't really understand, but this is a far less important point than "goodmorning wouldn't be sincerely pushing Harry here if town".
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Post Post #711 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:16 am

Post by Faalcon »

Hi everyone, I'm done catching up. I'll comment on everything when I'm less tired.
I'll keep my vote on goodmorning at least until then.
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Post Post #712 (ISO) » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:42 pm

Post by Vecna »

In post 710, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 708, Loopdan wrote:I don't think it's likely that scum!goodmorning replaces in and goes all-in on a player who is town-read by most other players... unless it is distancing, which would be SvS. But I read DH as town, so it's likely TvT. I've considered it could be scum!goodmorning's attempt to distract from her partner's wagon, but busing seems like a better option in these circumstances.
I agree that replacing into the game and tunneling the towniest player is more likely to be an action coming from town than scum. However, the reasons why goodmorning is pushing Harry as scum don't really seem like reasons that she'd subscribe to as town, and while it's completely possible that scum would make a strange play in order to go for some "mafia wouldn't do that" cred, it's hard to see goodmorning as town making a push like this without copious drinking being involved somewhere.

I'm also not sure I like how she's tried to read me this game; she dismissed me as town early based on a single post that I've made and then seems to be trying to strengthen her read through a series of weird looking reaction test-esque ways that I don't really understand, but this is a far less important point than "goodmorning wouldn't be sincerely pushing Harry here if town".
Now THIS appears to be one of those "wordy" posts meant to obscure and confuse. Basicly youre saying you think Goodmorning is scum based on how you think she would and wouldnt play?
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Post Post #713 (ISO) » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:03 am

Post by e_is_cool »

Ug prods and snap I've been procrastinating on my posts.
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Post Post #714 (ISO) » Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:09 am

Post by goodmorning »

In post 704, Dirty Harry2 wrote:"I'd expect him to have" - and that is where your game falls short.
What is a reaction test but a gambit that you
expect
one alignment to react to one way and the other alignment to react to a different way?

@Nacho 706: That's not what I expected, given 1305.
In post 709, Loopdan wrote:E logged in this morning and this is the only game he is playing in.

Yet no post to avoid the replace-out.
I don't tend to trust those login stats because I've found that they can be wrong. (I had one tell me that Toffee'd last logged in 48 hours before when he'd just posted.)

--

I'm going to have to regroup here, given what I've got off Nacho so far.
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Post Post #715 (ISO) » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:54 am

Post by Ircher »

Replacing e_is_cool for perpetual inactivity including his most recent prod dodge.
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Post Post #716 (ISO) » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:27 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 714, goodmorning wrote:@Nacho 706: That's not what I expected, given 1305.
This not what you expected, based on a game three and a half years ago? Interested in hearing your line of thought here.
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Post Post #717 (ISO) » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:30 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 712, Vecna wrote:Now THIS appears to be one of those "wordy" posts meant to obscure and confuse. Basicly youre saying you think Goodmorning is scum based on how you think she would and wouldnt play?
Please tell me that you're not subscribing to her reasoning...

I think goodmorning is scum because I don't think she pushes on Dirty Harry for the reasons she's pushing here as town; it's a ridiculous, terrible case.
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Post Post #718 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:17 am

Post by e_is_cool »

Since I don't have much time for this, I'll just replace out before I cause any more trouble with my inactivity. (Even though Ircher is already planning to replace me.)
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Post Post #719 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:42 am

Post by Vecna »

So in my first game on this site I saw both the scum players replace out of the game when they were under pressure (rb actually replaced in there as scum). The people that replaced in just got a completely new slate approach from everyone, almost like the earlier player never existed. I really dont want that to happen in this game, but I have the strong feeling its about to happen again. I still stand behind lynching E_is_cool, he's been lurking non-stop, hasn't had any proper answers to questions regarding his actions, and when he did post during D2 its just been filler to dodge the prods.

Faalcon are you still tired?

@Nacho - just because I dont buy that the logic applies to DH, doesnt mean I dont think it applied to that post. It was wordy, vague and self-contradicting. I still think either you or goodmorning are the most likely scumpartners to E. However Id be surprised if you guys are a team together, so I still want to get E over either of you today since at least the two of you are talking and giving us shit to go on.
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Post Post #720 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:49 am

Post by Ircher »

Nictherat replaces e_is_cool. Deadline will be extended 1 day.
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Post Post #721 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:10 am

Post by Dirty Harry2 »

In post 707, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 703, Dirty Harry2 wrote:I will go through the points/players he is pushing that I agree with if you would like.
I would like this.
I'd also like to hear your opinion on his e_is_cool push, since that is a place where your opinions differ.
Spoiler:
In post 451, Vecna wrote:My feelings right now:

Town:
RB

Usefull players, townlean, but still possible good scum players pretending:
Dirty Harry
Franky
Skold

Group that I feel contains scum#2:
Nacho
Parabola
E_is_cool

Scum #1:
TNE
In post 453, Vecna wrote:Either way, I really want E, Nacho and Parabola to get more active tomorrow/today since I feel they have not been doing a whole lot at all this game, and theres a high likelyhood that theres a scum in this group
In post 498, Vecna wrote:At any rate, I still stand by my statement that todays focus should start with E_is_cool, nacho and ebola. Havent seen nearly enough of any of these players.
In post 499, Vecna wrote:Nacho and Parabola, I want to hear from both of you
In post 511, Vecna wrote: My strong suspicion is youre just scum trying to ride it out. Your EOD participation is rubbish.

I want to see your thoughts of the game and of the people in it. Youre not giving us anywhere near enough information to ascertain whether youre town or scum, so untill you do im just going to assume the latter.
In post 580, Vecna wrote:Do you mind at least giving us some arguments for coming to the exact same reads as me and some others have been having? Not that I disagree with them, but your playstyle so far just does absolutely nothing for us to be able to distinguish between a town or scum player.
In post 585, Vecna wrote:...wut?

What analysis?

Did I miss something?
In post 621, Vecna wrote:Also stop setting me up for the NK please Harry :p
In post 661, Vecna wrote:Not sure if this is a jokepost or you really think this is a scumslip, either way it was clearly addressed at other town players, not scum or myself.....
In post 671, Vecna wrote:You've made some insinuations regarding me and my playstyle. Do you scumread me? If so, why?
-You've also been mentioning E_is_cool in passing, but only to the extent of wanting to see more of him, and complaining about people that talk much more because they "drown out the few posts made by E" (just paraphrasing here). How do you feel about E? What do you think his allignment is, and what makes you think that?
In post 676, Vecna wrote:Past succes is no guarantee for the future, and i really just don't see it here.
In post 690, Vecna wrote:Also, DH, I dont agree with your assesment. I think its very likely that she's trying to mimic her past town-game to divert attention from her scum-read slot by trying to appear as "bad town" as you put it
In post 698, Vecna wrote:Are all games on this site usually like this? Because if so this will definately be my last game on here

- shared apathy/frustration towards the same players (E/Nacho/Parabola).
- Vecna would post something I was thinking of posting
- shared paranoia regarding Nacho's D1 activity
- challenges loopdan's empty reads
- shared humour
- goodmorning's hesitant scum-read of Vecna
- goodmorning's associations via e
- squashes goodmorning's logical fallacy
- different conclusion on goodmorning's alignment but it was an interesting perspective
- self-defeat/frustration

I do not think he has been overly concerned about my attempts to buddy up with him.
I think we both have town-reads of eachother.
His D2 defense of me has been noted.
We are very unlikely to vote for eachother today.


RE: Vecna's opinion of my distancing/doubt about the e-wagon:
In post 563, Vecna wrote:I sort of agree with you that of the lurkers he feels least scummy so far. The few things he has been posting appear reasonably genuine to me. However even though he's a new player I do know this sort of stuff can be faked, so Im definately not putting him anywhere near a townread at this point. With this sort of playstyle I always remain worried the low level of posting is because theyre afraid to slip or starting to contradict themselves in later days without being able to keep backing it up by town logic.

Town players should never be afraid to post and participate a lot. Low levels of participation only benefits scum, whether theyre actually scum or town.
This post kept my suspicion of e_is_cool alive.
I still do not town read the e slot.
His replacement before the deadline is key.
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Post Post #722 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:14 am

Post by Dirty Harry2 »

I wanted e_is_cool to roleclaim given the previous deadline...
However, an additional day will allow Nictherat time for a full catch-up.
Right now, my town-lean of Skold has disappeared too.
I plan on a full re-read.
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Post Post #723 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:24 am

Post by Dirty Harry2 »

In post 714, goodmorning wrote:
In post 704, Dirty Harry2 wrote:"I'd expect him to have" - and that is where your game falls short.
What is a reaction test but a gambit that you
expect
one alignment to react to one way and the other alignment to react to a different way?
True.
I do agree we come into this game with our own preconceptions on how scum and town should behave.
However, I felt you were transfixed into reading every thing I was saying as possessing scum-motivation.
(Many points I think were non-alignment indicative).
Is there even 1% doubt/hesitancy/paranoia/conflict in your scum-read of me?
You have come into this game attacking the top two town-reads...
(That is not scummy).
But it is the reasons why you have done this, which is troubling me.
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Post Post #724 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:31 am

Post by Dirty Harry2 »

@goodmorning
I am now ready to smoke the peace-pipe.
I apologise for my behaviour.

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