Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[RachMarie]

Inno

dont be making assumptions just be grateful

now lets move on to finding the scum

[RachMarie]

no role fishing

[innocentvillager]

Zorb I'm here and I gut scumread you and Rach. I've gotten mixed signals from you, but almost entirely scum tells from Rach and mostly scum tells from Caston.

Also fiddler/foe is town. I would be shocked if one of you and Rach was not scum.

VOTE: Rach

[innocentvillager]

no role fishing

How am I role fishing? I'm not telling them to claim or anything, I'm telling them to crumb.

[RachMarie]

so instead of trying to get them to crumb how about explaining your case on me Inno?

Besides the fact Im pretty much lynch bait.

[innocentvillager]

so instead of trying to get them to crumb how about explaining your case on me Inno?

Besides the fact Im pretty much lynch bait.

I stated my case on you in my notes. You're not just lynch bait, you looked like you insincerely asking questions at the beginning.

And I can do both at the same time, ya know

[RachMarie]

no I was Im clueless Im distracted with work stuffs and paying bills stuffs and Nacho was not able to get in and help me figure shit out lol

So when in doubt ask questions

[innocentvillager]

Right I understand but that don't excuse you from asking a shitty question, not caring about any of the responses that were even shittier and then just asking another question by moving on, among other stuff. It means you're asking questions without regard to actually getting meaningful responses from them. This has nothing to do with your activity.

[RachMarie]

you think I did not get something from them?

[Zorblag]

Welcome to the game Foedufafa! I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it. It's a fairly quick read for a game going into day two and your slot's input is going to be a nice change I hope.

@innocentvillager, glad to see you're here now. I'm interested in seeing what you have to say about the questions that I asked after your catch up post. The ones on Gratuitous aren't so useful anymore, but the rest I'd like to have you address. Also, now that you've seen how the day ended and a flip and a lack of a kill, outside of RachMarie and me who's most likley to be scum? I also agree with RachMarie that we shouldn't be concerned with asking any power roles to out anything at this time; let them use their own judgment about when and how to pass on any information they might have.

@RachMarie, you shouldn't need someone else to help you catch scum. I really don't like that bit about Nachomamma8 being busy as a reason that you look scummy. Having said that, the questions you were asking at the start of the game were probably among your best play so far in that they had some chance of moving the game along, so I disagree with innocentvillager about them apparently. What's the state of your reads. You flipped your position on Gratuitous but that lead to town. Who's scum now?

@Jaack, you seemed to be on the last night of day 1, but didn't post anything despite the fact that given you stated positions it really made sense for you to do so. What's up? What am I getting wrong about that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

I hate being wrong

Mostly I was looking forward to playing with nacho when this game went into sign ups, plus of course he was the IC so was looking forward to him setting the tone like he usually does, and pegging him off the bat as either town or scum. His activity level though sucked and we ended up with a bunch of non active players so I stumbled around asking questions trying to get the activity up. Nacho is much better at picking up clues than I am thats why once I have figured out he is town, I like to pay attention to his reads he sees things I miss.

I never had a strong town read on grat just a hmm need to see I was wrong.

Im going to analyze the wagon on him see if that gives me a better handle on the game.

[Jaack]

@Jaack, you seemed to be on the last night of day 1, but didn't post anything despite the fact that given you stated positions it really made sense for you to do so. What's up? What am I getting wrong about that?

Honestly, I had a post I was working (well by working on, I had a few quotes that I was going to talk about but never actually got to the typing part) on but got distracted by the televisions.

The main point was going to be that I was getting a PR read from grat which is why I so ardently townread him without bringing up the reasons, but I was plenty wrong there obviously. I could go into it more if anyone would like to know, but I'm not sure how useful it would be at this point.

I do have some thoughts on stuff that's happened today, but I want to talk about end of day stuff yesterday first, specifically zorblag (who was the only one really posting at that point so...). I still standby virtually everything I was saying in 209, but zorblag's play since then has done little to calm my fears there.

His initial response in 211 is... okay. The general tone is 'believe what you want to believe, but you're wrong.' Doesn't strike me very much as either town or scum.

I do take issue with 238. In general, there is a lot of justification for an intent to hammer that seems like he was worried about how a hammer would look on a PR. (I get the sense from this post that, like me, zorblag saw some PR-ish elements in gratuitous' play)

But what really struck me was his twilight post (243). It's kind of subtle, but it at least feels to me like he was pre-emptively trying to discredit any attempt I would make to lynch him D2, which why wouldn't I try to lynch him D2 when 1. He was my number 1 scumread at the end of D1 and 2. He just hammered a different townie.

All in all, a lot of times when I'm reading zorblag's posts I get the feeling like he's thinking about how people will read his posts/act in the future and trying subtly push them in a more beneficial direction for himself. It just feels a little to pre-planned for town.

VOTE: zorblag

Will get to IV/Rach later today

[Zorblag]

@Jaack, before I get into anything else about your post I want to hear why you had a PR read on Gratuitous.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

@Jaack, before I get into anything else about your post I want to hear why you had a PR read on Gratuitous.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I reallyyy wanted to know the same thing when I even just skimmed through Jaack's post, so Zorblag bringing this up is mildly mildly townie.

@Zorblag, can you requote which questions you want me to answer again?

[innocentvillager]

I also agree with RachMarie that we shouldn't be concerned with asking any power roles to out anything at this time; let them use their own judgment about when and how to pass on any information they might have.

Why are both you are Rach misrepping me? Rach is telling me to stop rolefishing, and here you're telling me to stop asking power roles to out anything.

I'm not asking for PRs to out anything. I'm asking for them to crumb their results in the text near the beginning of the day so we can go look back on this later. I think this is the optimal play for PRs—it's the most they can do without actually posting in the thread. If PRs don't want to follow my lead, fine, I won't strongarm them to do anything. It's just my suggestion.

It's like you and Rach don't want people to figure out who's guilty/innocent based on that no-kill.

Like I'm trying not to be confbiased on you two, since I have a weird feeling I haven't pegged the scumteam. But I'm townreading mostly everyone else here, which just leaves the two of you.

[innocentvillager]

Will get to IV/Rach later today

I'd be a hypocrite to expect this from other people when I don't always follow up myself but... out of curiosity is this coming at some point?

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager,

@innocentvillager, thanks for that post. I do have a couple questions and am happy to talk about my page 7 posts that seem to be bothering you in a bit, though I'd like you to elaborate first.

What do you think of Gratuitous's posts the past couple pages. There's a change in tone and you don't seem to have mentioned that struck me as noteworthy. I'd also love to see if you can dig into what you don't like about ecane's resent posts as you seem to have a largely unique perspective there (in that no one else other than perhaps Gratuitous has mentioned it.)

For my page 7 posts, I wonder if you can tell me what you think my motivation as scum might have been to do what I did? I can understand not seeing what I was up to, but I'm wondering why you think it was scum play in particular.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

It looks like I asked less than I recall, but I was trying to get the question in during a window you were there for. I actually did talk about why I made the play I did in Post 228 but as you still list my behavior as mixed due to primarily that one part I'm still curious.

As far as your call for breadcrumbing, how am I misrepresenting you? If scum know that PRs are likely to be breadcrumbing anything they're more likely to pick up on it. We shouldn't be calling for that. You should let PRs use their own judgement about when to reveal information and we shouldn't be doing any speculation in thread as that just helps the scum potentially eliminate non-PRs. I want to explicitly claim that I'd make these statements regardless of role, that's just from a theory perspective. There might come a time in the game when a popcorn claim makes sense, but we're not there yet.

@Jaack, and now I'm not going to wait for you to reply as waiting does this game no good. I do still very much want to hear your answer though; I don't expect you to have suspected Gratuitous might be a Power Role for the reasons that I did so I really want to see what you had in mind.

I'll also say (again) that your end of day one play was really poor for town. More-so if you thought that Gratuitous was a PR. You were on during the last 24 hours of the day when you knew that I was intending to hammer your PR read. Given that the other viable wagon at the time (RachMarie) was among your stated scum suspects you had every reason to post something to try to move that wagon. RachMarie was at L-2, you were the only one voting for me coming to deadline which made your vote useless. The only sensible town move there would be to try to shift the wagon from Gratuitous to RachMarie by first throwing your vote and then making whatever case you could, no matter how brief. You knew that Foxbird at least would be willing to compromise on the lynch if it came down to it so you could have protected the one you thought was a power role in favor of lynching a top scum suspect. But you didn't. You chose not to post when the deadline was looming and effectively let your power role read get lynched.

That's awful.

But there's a caveat. Your play was far from the only awful play to end that day. The end of the day, when we're hammering out a lynch that will often be a compromise, is a time that town really has to be there to stop scum from determining who the lynch candidate is. This lynch happened the way it did because I was the only active player not on the Gratuitous wagon already during the final 24 hours. Up to and including Gratuitous. Apparently, had I not been there we wouldn't have had a lynch at all which is just what scum wants. Town can't end days like that.

Regarding your case on me, you're going in to your reading at this point with the assumption that I'm scum trying to manipulate the game and you in particular into positions that help me. Either your scum or you've got a huge case of confirmation bias going on at this point. As the active player who's posting thoughts it's easy to read into what I'm typing to find evidence to back up whatever you think is true. If you were looking to find me town you'd certainly find plenty of that as well. It happens when people post often.

The thing is that you've got the wrong idea for good scum play. I can play scum. I can play it well. Glancing at my Wiki and the games that I recorded there I've got an 11-3 record as scum. I didn't get that by playing the game that I'm playing now. As scum my best play is to blend into the rest of the field and let town make their own mistakes. Players, especially in Newbie games assume that scum try to manipulate town into bad positions, but in my experience that's not the way things go. It means that you need to step out and bend a game which gets you noticed by what normally end up as paranoid player who are going to think that standing out makes someone scum. I have no reason to play the aggressive game that I'm playing now if I'm scum. My twilight thoughts? Why bother; no one else is. Prodding players to get them involved? People don't like being prodded and scum shouldn't want to do things to make themselves uncomfortable. Calling 5 of the 8 players that were in the game viable lynches when I entered? That's a way to make people dislike me and not worth it.

As scum There's no way I'd have the highest post count in the game (not even taking into account entering a week after it started.) I'd be as background as I could be to blend in with the overall flow, and that would be a hell of a lot more background than this. Even if you think I needed activity up front to assuage suspicions there'd be no reason to keep at it like this. As town I can't do that. As town I need to spur activity because a passive town will typically lose. I need people getting involved both so that I can get better reads on them and so that they can get their own reads and help the town win. I need to deprive scum the cover of inactivity so that they come out and make posts that give them a chance to make mistakes. I'd have to be an idiot to play this game this way as scum, but as town who wants to win, this is my best option.

And the thing is, I'm still pretty sure your town and that none of this is going to sway you. It's irritating, but I've played enough newbie games and seen this happen enough times before to get over it. Hell, the game that RachMarie and innocentvillager both mentioned when they saw me here had that happen in one of the few occasions that I couldn't talk myself out of it (Newbie Game 1222.) I will say that what I really need you to do, and what it behooves you to do anyhow outside of my interests, is to spend at least as much effort looking at the other players. Even if I was scum I couldn't be scum alone, so if you need to frame it this way go find my partner.

@ecane, Foxbird and Nachomamma8, we're in day 2. You were all on the Gratuitous wagon. I want to know who you think is scum now that the flip has happened (and generally I want you here in the thread.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

If scum know that PRs are likely to be breadcrumbing anything they're more likely to pick up on it. We shouldn't be calling for that. You should let PRs use their own judgement about when to reveal information and we shouldn't be doing any speculation in thread as that just helps the scum potentially eliminate non-PRs. I want to explicitly claim that I'd make these statements regardless of role, that's just from a theory perspective. There might come a time in the game when a popcorn claim makes sense, but we're not there yet.

That makes more sense, but you should've said that first instead of just telling me not to out the PRs. You were implicitly assuming and simplifying my argument to suggest that I wanted the PRs to out, which I didn't. Your argument that scum would likely pick up on the crumb since they are looking is a valid one (although if I was crumbing, there's no WAY scum would catch on), but I think if people are feeling up to it and creative enough to make something very obscure but still clearly a crumb, I say do it.

Zorblag, I have to say your weird AtE and self WIFOM scum-speculations in your latest post read oddly desperate to me. Gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, I said that we shouldn't be asking PRs to out anything at this point, not that you shouldn't out them. I called for them to use their own judgment. I shouldn't have to elaborate on that.

As far as Jaack goes do you disagree with my assessments of the value of this play to town vs. scum? Are you looking at what my motives would be as town or scum (which goes back to my earlier question to you where you called something scummy, but I can't see what scum motivation you would be seeing)? Jack is convinced that my motive has to be to actively manipulate the town as scum rather than to try to motivate the town to play as town. I can give him credit for at least giving possible motives, but the one's he's coming up with assume that I have to be out to manipulate him in particular, the player who thinks that I'm trying to manipulate him. That would just be bad play on my part; I'd be so much better off just keeping quite as scum. There's probably nothing that I'm going to say that's going to convince him otherwise, but letting it ride didn't work, so I'm trying directly addressing it now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

We can have more discussion on the PR stuff but I think for now let's just agree that PRs should consider subtly crumbing as I mentioned, but if they decide that is suboptimal, then they obviously don't have to. So they still are using their own judgment.

I'll have a think on it tomorrow, but I have some thoughts that I'll give right now. I know that the classic theory says that scum have natural motivation to sit back when town is being stubbornly inactive, but scum has a larger priority IMO: to look town.

Caston was clearly being fos'd. You needed to make up for it by being extra, extra townie. So you could've put aside all of your natural scum motivations, flooded the thread with "discussion" (too much content at once can sometimes even induce apathy, which is scum motivated), played extra protown, done all of these protown things so that you could point it out today when people started tunneling you.

So to be honest, I was townreading you for doing classically proactive things like asking questions (you've done that as scum), asking for prods (which you have done in your scumgames too), posting a lot (which I think you have done in your scumgames, not totally sure), and trying to push a lynch towards the end when people were deadline-stalling. That's protown behavior. But a lot of times scum do protown stuff to try and reverse the town's attitude towards them, just they can get townread for it.

It's very possible that you were hoping that you would get me and Jaack off your case by doing all of this. But when you realized we were still scumreading you, you panicked, and came out with this post.

But the moment you pointed it out yourself, it just looks deliberate. All of the protown things that you said and did, no longer look town-motivated. It looks like a scum who was willing to act protown for a bit to save themself from their widely fos'd situation, and when the townreads weren't picked up on,

you pointed them out yourself

.

I also don't like that your bubble burst against Jaack. Jaack was just one person tunneling you, why were you so worried about one guy, who you're not even sure is town? It seemed like a premature overreaction to try and get people to last-ditch townread you.

In fact,

VOTE: Zorblag

This is L-2

I think I'm more confident on this than Rach scum now.

[innocentvillager]

Sorry there is some terrible grammar in there since I'm groggy and it's late, feel free to ask me to clarify anything.

[innocentvillager]

The point is, you are clearly good with scum as you said yourself, and you're an experienced player. So I wouldn't put it past you to do something like this, especially giving the situation at hand.

[innocentvillager]

*given the shitty fos'd situation that you replaced into.

Why is my English so terrible at night lol

[Jaack]

Uff busier than I would like. Lots of zorblag to respond to but that might have to wait until tomorrow but I wanted to get my IV/rach thoughts in before bedtime.

My initial feeling was that rach was townier than I had previously thought while I was scummier but on a reread, I've shifted back to IV being totes town and rach being back in the scum side of things.

Scum rolefishing, if it even exists, does not look like what IV was doing. Scum would likely be more hesitant to openly talk about softclaiming and the like.

I don't really like how concerned rach was about being lynchbait. At the time of that post (254), she had one vote on her, and 5 players HD yet to even check in this day. Felt a bit paranoid in the 'town is on to me' sense as opposed to the 'scum wants me dead' sense.

Next thing on my agenda is my pr read on grat. His early posts (specifically 40, 41, and 44) felt really devil may care kind of attitude. They didn't look like he was trying to avoid a scumread, which I know is a kind of feeling I get when I have a pr.

The big thing that mentally 'confirmed' it for me was the 'I'm not getting lynched' line from 196 which seemed awfully confident for a VT who was not widely townread.

I could go into it more if you'd like but I am falling asleep, so I'll finish up/respond to zorbag in the morning.

Pedit-oh joy more to read
Pedit2-oh actual joy iv agrees with me.

[Foxbird]

I'm sorry to have to do this, but I have dental surgery in two hours and I've been kinda preoccupied with that.

I'll read throughly and post when I am back, hopefully.