Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[Chrimi]

Can you explain how hiding information about your meta is of benefit to town

Because meta is bullshit and shouldn't be the basis of a case?

Like... If I hear 1 more meta out of this game I'm gonna stop playing nice and be the most annoying tunnel-driven asshole you can be

META IS NOT A SCUMTELL NOR IS IT A TOWNTELL

ITS ONLY A SUPPORTING ARGUEMENT

But tne

Nice you is cute ;;

[thenewearth]

Also I hate talking about meta

But this kind of argument has to stop

Literally going nowhere

Lets say, you meta me, I gave out all my alts and hydras, you read all my recent games.
You notice that I'm more pushy and want to vote more as town and I tend to play a lot less active and laid back as scum

The thing is, I decide to play laid back right now, and you actually try to lynch me because of that? That's literally bullshit

[0x40]

Because meta is bullshit and shouldn't be the basis of a case?

Like... If I hear 1 more meta out of this game I'm gonna stop playing nice and be the most annoying tunnel-driven asshole you can be

META IS NOT A SCUMTELL NOR IS IT A TOWNTELL

ITS ONLY A SUPPORTING ARGUEMENT

If someone does something often as scum that they never do as town, then that's often a pretty good scumtell. Even if it is as you say, and meta can only be used as a supporting argument, then why not give the usernames of your alts so that town can use that information for supportive arguments?

[Chrimi]

Because meta is bullshit and shouldn't be the basis of a case?

Like... If I hear 1 more meta out of this game I'm gonna stop playing nice and be the most annoying tunnel-driven asshole you can be

META IS NOT A SCUMTELL NOR IS IT A TOWNTELL

ITS ONLY A SUPPORTING ARGUEMENT

If someone does something often as scum that they never do as town, then that's often a pretty good scumtell. Even if it is as you say, and meta can only be used as a supporting argument, then why not give the usernames of your alts so that town can use that information for supportive arguments?

It's not a good scumtell, because that player

knows

their own meta. Plus, maybe the player is just wanting to play differently because they want to improve, and do something they usually only do as scum.

[thenewearth]

I'd rather not and use my alt as... my actual alt

[thenewearth]

but then again you're fixated on that being scummy soooo

I'm gonna be fixated on ignoring you

thanks

[implosion]

I'm at work so I'm not really reading everything right now (I haven't even looked beyond page 5 yet) but this stuck out to me:

The implosion-Chrimi fight felt like a huge distraction, but I think the game is progressing nicely otherwise. I should be back tonight for all you North Americans.

I very much like calling this interaction as a distraction; I realized as I was going to sleep tonight that I probably wasn't really getting anything useful out of this line of discussion with Chrimi, but got sucked into a pretty significant back-and-forth that really doesn't have a ton of useful info. I think Jibs calling it as a distraction and not trying to read into it is a decent towntell. I'll figure out what I really think of Chrimi later as well.

I've mostly skimmed so I'll have more substantive content later, probably after work.

[thenewearth]

I don't blame you

I don't even know why I'm bothering

Literally 90% filler posts

[PenguinPower]

PEDIT: PP: "I-It's not about the case I just posted that makes you scummy, it's uh... It's all of it together! Waffling and defensive, even though I'm not going to provide any examples."
Yeahuh, keep that up buddy. You'll paint me scummy someday, I promise.

Sorry...just saw this. I think you read my post wrong. It's not about each individual "spoiler" point I put in my post, it's all of them together. To me, you seem waffling in your statements and overly defensive. My examples are in the post.

[thenewearth]

Am I the only one who's actually thinking that its "Identity defense" and not "I'm not a scum defense" ???

[Chrimi]

PEDIT: PP: "I-It's not about the case I just posted that makes you scummy, it's uh... It's all of it together! Waffling and defensive, even though I'm not going to provide any examples."
Yeahuh, keep that up buddy. You'll paint me scummy someday, I promise.

Sorry...just saw this. I think you read my post wrong. It's not about each individual "spoiler" point I put in my post, it's all of them together. To me, you seem waffling in your statements and overly defensive. My examples are in the post.

I didn't defend against one of those points, I defended against all of them. So for you to say "It's all the points together!" When I defended against all the points together is asinine.

[Rocnix]

rocnix: can you post a new readslist?

Jibs: Generally helpful, and pointing out details that aren't about the obvious targets (ie, no one else is paying attention to them). Weakly town.
AstralFlare: Actively gathering information, but only about Chrimi. NAI.
PenguinPower: Playing conservatively, but being somewhat open about reasoning. NAI.
0x40: Immediately started attacking Chrimi, and only changed behavior when Chrimi presented thenewearth as a similar target. He has been asking for (and not receiving) the answers to the same questions, so my read on him will depend on how he interacts with Chrimi when the subject changes.
Chrimi: Frustrated that the town isn't listening to her. In my experience, scum don't get visibly frustrated when the town is behaving irrationally, but make arguments to match the town's expectations. That might not be the meta here (please correct me if it isn't!), but I'm reading her as slightly town because of it.
thenewearth: Casual tone so far. Actively refusing to get flustered by 0x40's pressure. NAI.
shannon: Playing slightly less conservatively than PenguinPower, but I still don't have enough info. NAI.
implosion: I think I've been spooked by the wiki's description of how IC mafia behave or am just terrible at townhunting, because I can't bring myself to trust him. NAI.

My vote will stay on 0x40 since he's not really at risk of being lynched and I would like to hear more from him.

(Also Chrimi, I'm not quite sure where exactly you defended yourself against all the points. In the case that people don't move on from the meta argument, if you could restate your defenses so that no one has to go looking for them, that would probably be helpful.)

[PenguinPower]

I didn't defend against one of those points, I defended against all of them. So for you to say "It's all the points together!" When I defended against all the points together is asinine.

You defended against each specific point, not the greater context that resulted in me seeing waffling and defensiveness. Either way, I'm done with this as bickering back and forth is not productive. I saw something, you disagree. That's fine.

@thenewearth: Why do you think shannon's vote was scummy. You stated it, but I didn't see your reasoning.

@0x40: What are your thoughts on Jib's case on shannon? What are your thoughts on any player other than Chrimi?

[AstralFlare]

Thoughts on alts: (I have none btw)

With TNE here. Alts shouldn't be a be all and end all as far as reads go, rather they should be supporting evidence. But my vote on Chrimi isn't about her alts, it's about her deflecting literally every question and withholding information and not supporting her arguments and just generally screaming ASININE ASININE ASININE when people try to vote her.

@TNE, could you elaborate on 159?

Any readlists you guys feel like sharing? Mine comes tomorrow.

[shannon]

thenewearth: Can you give me a read on penguinpower? Can you explain your read on shannon?

Shannon's vote

Incredibly scummy

Must die

Actually you know what?

Calling it right here

Shannon-Penguin

Hello everyone!

Here is the case on Shannon. (snippy snip but clicky the linky to view it again)[/post]

The point of my post and vote wasn't to test Chrimi's reaction, it was the see the rest of you react - to see what you would make out of a rubbish point made early. And the winner is ... 0x40, whose first post came in just after my 'reaction test', and who made a giant mountain out of a molehill. His very first post is 71 where he votes Chrimi over basically a typo or turn of phrase, then kicks it on to 75, 92, 93, 94, 100...etc etc. The whole ISO is basically pushing Chrimi over absolutely nothing. I'm not sure whether it's alignment indicative or just overzealous/personality based, but it's worth a vote at this point.

VOTE: 0x40

Implosion is looking fairly neutral at this point, I can't tell much between his IC posts and his regular play style.
Jibs is behaving decently townily and I liked that he questioned me over my change of mind on Chrimi
Chrimi reads like frustrated town

I've not really got much of a read on the others at this point.

Apologies for not being part of the big conversation that happened, it was overnight for me. GMT+8

[implosion]

Probably gonna make several posts here. I personally find it a bit easier to read/digest than just catching up over several pages at once and posting a giant wall.

Hiding alts is more harmful to town than it is to scum, because it makes it harder to get accurate reads. I guess it could be argued that that information also helps scum get pr reads, but the benefits of town having that information far outweighs the drawbacks of scum having that information. Hiding an alt is almost strictly an anti-town play, and is therefore scummy.

Even if this is true, there's a very important distinction between "harmful to town" and "indicative of scum." I don't think that hiding an alt is really particularly harmful to the town, but even if we grant that it is, it doesn't follow that it's scummy behavior. Most players aren't going to consciously make a decision after entering a game of "hm, I'm scum and I don't want them to know my meta, I guess I'll hide my alts." It's much, much more common and likely that someone would just hide an alt because they don't want people knowing that they have the alt for out-of-game reasons. I'd doubt extremely strongly that Chrimi or really anyone here would make a conscious, game-specific decision to withhold that kind of information that isn't even all

that

useful to the town (meta is not the end-all be-all).

Not everything that happens in a game is alignment-motivated - so when you say:

The only legitimate reason for town to hide information is if the information is more beneficial to scum than to town, which is obviously not the case here.

it's based on a false premise that hiding that information has to be based on the motivation of trying to win this game, rather than motivated by out-of-game reasons or in this case not really motivated by anything in particular (I really have a hard time doubting Chrimi when she says that she simply didin't find listing the hydra account relevant).

[implosion]

implosion: I congratulate you on actually getting Chrimi to say something about alignment. Did you learn anything from the long exchange which happened after that? Have your other reads evolved?

Eh. Chrimi honestly hasn't really done anything that pings me strongly in either direction yet; 58 still feels slightly off but

shrug.

Her reactions to this discussion (essentially being indignant) aren't really strongly alignment indicative to me. They feel like someone who believes they are right but that doesn't mean town. I am getting a townread on you from your reaction to it (as I mentioned) and I still think AstralFlare is town. I want to get a read on 0x40 from it but the main thing I'm seeing from him is a playstyle; although I strongly disagree with the content of his push on Chrimi I'm not convinced it's scum motivated

yet.

It is quite possible - the line of thinking of "Chrimi is withholding information that could potentially help town, therefore she's scum" is lacking to me, making a big thing out of something very minor and in my opinion irrelevant that was said.

implosion attempting a serious case on me before page 5 is asinine,

And here you go misrepresenting me again :/. It wasn't a "serious case." It was a casual observation. I didn't vote you with it, it was just something that struck me as off. It's not like I saw that post and said "oh my god scum caught on page 3, gg." You're really making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Again I don't really see your reaction here as particularly scummy but you are really misrepresenting or misunderstanding the things that I'm saying.

[implosion]

Alright, so let's make this whole alt thing crystal clear.

There are plenty of players on this site who have alts. Those people have many reasons for those alts but the most relevant here is that people sometimes make alt accounts for the purpose of playing games with a different style or without association to their typical meta. In the latter case, people often keep those accounts hidden

in general

, not just hiding them from a specific game.

Chrimi and thenewearth not wanting to say who their alt accounts are is, I would say without a shadow of a doubt, not for reasons that are related to their alignments. It's simply for the reason that those accounts were made for the purpose of not being associated with their main accounts. They're not trying to hide information from the town of this game for the sake of subterfuge, they're most likely hiding information from the entire site for personal reasons that they aren't obligated to share if they don't want to. They're under no obligation to explain why hiding that information is beneficial to the town of this game, because their hiding of that information is almost certainly entirely unrelated to this game.

[Jibs]

Hello everyone!

UNVOTE:

My reads are evolving quite a bit, and Shannon's response to my case felt extremely reasonable. I will be around for a couple hours if anyone has any questions for me, and I will probably post a complete readlist after that.

Chrimi: I am not going to argue with you about how to play mafia, but if you really want, we can talk after the game.

I respect your decision not to talk about alignment, but can you tell me a little bit about tne's motivation? What is she doing in the section between 121 and 155? This is the part where you and her explain that alts are not a scumtell and criticize 0x40's play. Your play in this section makes sense to me and is consistent with the way you have been playing all game. But I think that she should be very motivated to talk to you regardless of her alignment, can you help me understand what she's doing here?

tne: please don't be mafia, lol.

implosion: this read matches my thinking almost exactly:

Eh. Chrimi honestly hasn't really done anything that pings me strongly in either direction yet; 58 still feels slightly off but

shrug.

Her reactions to this discussion (essentially being indignant) aren't really strongly alignment indicative to me. They feel like someone who believes they are right but that doesn't mean town.

How do you feel about PP? You are still voting him if my notes are right.

PenguinPower: I'll admit to being underwhelmed by 147. What do you make of all the events which have happened since then?

[Jibs]

Chrimi: Let me clarify my question above. Why is tne talking to 0x40 instead of you in this section of the game?

[PenguinPower]

PenguinPower: I'll admit to being underwhelmed by 147. What do you make of all the events which have happened since then?

Instead of me responding this time, I would like to know why you were "underwhelmed" by my thoughts. I'll respond after.

[Jibs]

PenguinPower: I'll admit to being underwhelmed by 147. What do you make of all the events which have happened since then?

Instead of me responding this time, I would like to know why you were "underwhelmed" by my thoughts. I'll respond after.

Hello PP.

There are a couple things I didn't like about 147.

First, I had some reasonably strong associative reads at that point in the game, and I thought other town players would as well. You seemed to be putting a fair amount of effort into the game, and it was surprising that you couldn't pick a scumpartner for Chrimi. I think me, Rocnix, tne, and especially imp all would have been good choices from the perspective of town!PP, but even if you had different reads, that would have been fine, as long as there was some reasonable explanation.

Second, I didn't like your townreads on me and imp. At that point, if you think Chrimi is scum, you should be very suspicious of imp for scumreading her, making an incredibly weak push on her, and then leaving his vote on you. Additionally, you should be suspicious of me because I voted Chrimi, changed my vote in 66, and said basically fuckall about her alignment after that while going after other players.

I guess the broader point here is that I didn't sense the sort of narrative that town generally has about the game. I like your tone in 170, but I've still got you as a scumlean. Idk man, tell me about the game.

[PenguinPower]

So, here we go. Absent the continued politeness, which I either find refreshing or intentionally off throwing...

and it was surprising that you couldn't pick a scumpartner for Chrimi.

In the two games I have played before this one, I have learned/been taught that town should not be focusing on multiple scum reads Day1. There are too many possibilities, and too many ways to be thrown off. You should focus on your scummiest and go from there. From that, I could not logically and reasonably find a second scum read. If you want to infer from my readlist at the time, you can infer it was 0x40.

At that point, if you think Chrimi is scum, you should be very suspicious of imp for scumreading her, making an incredibly weak push on her, and then leaving his vote on you.

Why? implosion put his vote on me based on tone in the very beginning of the game. We're still more than a week out from deadline and with plenty of discussion left to be had. implosions scumread on Chrimi was light and maybe more of a push than anything else at the time. I wasn't suspicious at all, especially since 0x40 was pushing harder.

I guess the broader point here is that I didn't sense the sort of narrative that town generally has about the game. I like your tone in 170, but I've still got you as a scumlean. Idk man, tell me about the game.

First...I still have you leantown, but less so. I'm not sure if your "nice guy" persona is genuine play or an attempt at diversion...but its probably NAI. That being said...

I lean less scum on Chrimi but still my scummiest. I still don't like the total context of her posts, but it does seem more towny when taking the entire defense into context. I would like to hear from thenewearth and 0x40 before changing my reads on them. I would like to see Rocnix do more than respond to you with reads and maybe actually start pushing people/doing something. shannon and implosion remain unchanged for now.

Btw...this is the first you mention of me as a scum lean (besides a 26 out of an assumed 100?). Thanks. I'd like to hear more of your case since you've come out with that now compared with the others.

[Rocnix]

Is shannon's reaction test the normal level of doublethink abound here? In any case, well played.

0x40, it appears you're now the target of two people's suspicion. I'm sure shannon has her own questions, but in the meantime...
What did you make of Chrimi's reaction and thenewearth's nonreaction to your accusations? Did your interpretation change when it became apparent that we're not going to lynch them for having alts?

[Rocnix]

Also penguin, sorry for being quiet. I was a bit busy yesterday, but am more free for now. Question: Are you still voting for AstralFlare (I couldn't find an unvote skimming thorough the archive, please correct me if my info there is wring)? If so, why?