Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[0x40]

Shannon, I have a bit of an oddball question for you (or anyone who would like to throw in their two cents): Who do you think is in the most danger of being nightkilled?

Could you explain why you are asking this?

[AstralFlare]

The point is, three different people called me out on my rocnix read, and it's not possible for scumteam to be you+pp+imp. I don't think you would change a read based on people disagreeing, but I 100% would.

Why do you think that the people calling you out for your Rocnix read are likely to be scum?
Can you explain why you would follow the reads of others over your own? These people could be scum, and could be trying to influence you to vote a townie. Following other people's reads is also a potentially scummy action, you're just going along with the flow of the game, rather than consciously trying to advance it.

[AstralFlare]

0x40, since you are online, could I ask you for thoughts on actions non Chrimi and Jibs people over the past few pages? I appreciate your readlist, but it looks like you're not responding to much other than what they post.

[Rocnix]

My notes say thenewearth is at L-2 too.

Shannon, I have a bit of an oddball question for you (or anyone who would like to throw in their two cents): Who do you think is in the most danger of being nightkilled?

Could you explain why you are asking this?

Mostly because I'm looking for the type of thought she (and anyone else) is putting into this question. A while ago I read her as either a town power role or mafia, so if either of those are true she's probably thinking about tonight (and if not it's a good way to disprove my read). It would make more sense to ask this question along with that read, but I only thought of it now.

[AstralFlare]

My main interpretation of shannon's behavior is "impressed." Her reaction test focused on the larger picture, so she's probably townhunting more than scumhunting. My guess is that she's either a power role exploring the situation or scum searching for ideal targets.

Ahh, yes. I'm curious as to how you jumped from "townhunting more than scumhunting" to powerrole however. That said, I feel like actively hunting for powerroles this early is anti-town, as it narrows the pool for mafia nightkills.

[Jibs]

Hello Af.

The point is, three different people called me out on my rocnix read, and it's not possible for scumteam to be you+pp+imp. I don't think you would change a read based on people disagreeing, but I 100% would.

Why do you think that the people calling you out for your Rocnix read are likely to be scum?
Can you explain why you would follow the reads of others over your own?

As mentioned in the post you are quoting, this is partially a habit from another game I played quite a bit. Also, I consistently get the feeling that other people are reading the game better than me.

These people could be scum,

They literally couldn't, because scumteam only has 2 people, friend.

Following other people's reads is also a potentially scummy action, you're just going along with the flow of the game, rather than consciously trying to advance it.

Sure. Sheeping can be town or scum, like anything else. My post was more about giving you some context to interpret my play rather than defending it--your read had a "baffled regardless of alignment" feel.

[Rocnix]

My main interpretation of shannon's behavior is "impressed." Her reaction test focused on the larger picture, so she's probably townhunting more than scumhunting. My guess is that she's either a power role exploring the situation or scum searching for ideal targets.

Ahh, yes. I'm curious as to how you jumped from "townhunting more than scumhunting" to powerrole however. That said, I feel like actively hunting for powerroles this early is anti-town, as it narrows the pool for mafia nightkills.

It's late so my head's a bit foggy atm, but iirc my logic was something about looking for people to protect. In my off-site mafia experience, doctor is generally a prominent role, so I interpreted it as a pr-or-scum-tell without considering the rolelist.
In any case, I retract the question.

[Rocnix]

I may as well explain my whole logic behind that question, since it's unsafe to get answers:
1) It gives a partial readlist in a different context, by talking about who would kill, who has motivation to, and who is town enough to be killed.
2) Talking about who scum should kill and why gives more context to analysis tomorrow.
3) It's a question specifically about maf's actions, so it's a lie in which they can be caught. I'm not good at reading subtle things, so I could use a specific interaction to target.
Is there a way to examine this without threatening prs?

[Rocnix]

And I'm going to stop for the night before I say something dumb(er?). I'll make a new readlist tomorrow.

[shannon]

Sorry guys, still got major renovation going on here so I haven't had as much time available to concentrate as I would like.

Shannon, I have a bit of an oddball question for you (or anyone who would like to throw in their two cents): Who do you think is in the most danger of being nightkilled?

I can see why newbie town would ask this, but I don't think there's a good way to answer it without giving scum some kind of useful information. So here's a general answer, strategies that scum might pursue -

1) NK the towniest person and leave everyone wondering
2) NK someone at that others have been scum reading, and leave everyone wondering
3) NK someone they suspect is a PR
4) NK someone who is doing a good job as town, i.e. is a logical thinker and able to influence others
5) NK someone chosen deliberately to make everyone wonder what was going on, like picking someone who's been on totally the wrong track and then offing them

Personally when I play as scum, I'd go for 3), then 5), 2), 4) and 1) in order of preference. Others mileage may vary.

Later you say I'd probably thinking about NKs as a town PR or as scum, and that's true of me as a vanilla townie also. I'm always looking at the whole situation and trying to draw out possible conclusions. If I'm doing this in late game as town it's generally guaranteed to get me killed, but at least (if the remaining townies don't take me for a VI or ignore my thoughts) it gives them something to go on.

I may as well explain my whole logic behind that question, since it's unsafe to get answers:
1) It gives a partial readlist in a different context, by talking about who would kill, who has motivation to, and who is town enough to be killed.
2) Talking about who scum should kill and why gives more context to analysis tomorrow.
3) It's a question specifically about maf's actions, so it's a lie in which they can be caught. I'm not good at reading subtle things, so I could use a specific interaction to target.
Is there a way to examine this without threatening prs?

I think it's useful to discuss potential NK or lynch candidates later in the game after we've had at least one or two flips, but this early, it's really just a crap shoot.

Also re: 2), if I said for example 'OK scum should totally kill Chrimi' and they did, how would you work out whether a) I was scum and killing Chrimi, or whether b) someone else was scum and took that as as a way of pinning it on me, or whether c) I was scum and did it because I thought I could use b) as a strategy to get away with it?

[shannon]

Someone said that TNE is tunnelling me, but as far as I can tell there's no tunnelling going on. This is what I've got from TNE's ISO, what am I missing?

Spoiler:

also

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shannon

thenewearth: Can you give me a read on penguinpower? Can you explain your read on shannon?

Shannon's vote

Incredibly scummy

Must die

Actually you know what?

Calling it right here

Shannon-Penguin

I'll address the shannon stuff after she posts about 3-5 times

She either can fix herself or make it more transparent

Lets see what she'd do <3

Well someone's not fixing herself

By the way, it would be really helpful TNE to tell me what you think needs fixing, I'm useless at reading between the lines. What do I need to fix or make more transparent?

[thenewearth]

I'll be more serious after I'm done doing my shit

brb prod dodging

[shannon]

OK it's wine o'clock so I'm sitting down and trying to find something to post about because frankly I can't make head nor tail of this game so far. I suck at D1 I think it's fair to say.

The only thing I'm wondering is whether Chrimi is hiding a bit behind playstyle. Like, by using lots of accusatory tones and getting a bit dramatic, she's building in an automatic defense, something along the lines of 'you just don't like how I do things' or 'you just don't get it'. That's basically all I got.

[Jibs]

Hello shannon.

Someone said that TNE is tunnelling me, but as far as I can tell there's no tunnelling going on. This is what I've got from TNE's ISO, what am I missing?

It's a tunnel in the sense that she hasn't called any scum besides you. She voted 0x40, but her explanation sounds like some policy bs, and she never actually calls him scum.

[thenewearth]

I just woke up and stuff

Tunneling = unchanging reads while agressively pushing their scumread

[thenewearth]

That said, shannos is town for recognizing it

... I guess?

Newbie games are weird

[shannon]

The other thing I'm wondering is whether people *know* we won't be policy lynching (e.g. lynching lurkers) so they're being deliberately lurky D1 because they know they can get a way with it?

[Chrimi]

OK it's wine o'clock so I'm sitting down and trying to find something to post about because frankly I can't make head nor tail of this game so far. I suck at D1 I think it's fair to say.

The only thing I'm wondering is whether Chrimi is hiding a bit behind playstyle. Like, by using lots of accusatory tones and getting a bit dramatic, she's building in an automatic defense, something along the lines of 'you just don't like how I do things' or 'you just don't get it'. That's basically all I got.

This is legitimately how I play

[Chrimi]

0x40, next post: "We should policy lynch Chrimi for not giving her alts up"

When did I ever say anything about policy lynching you?

Yes, telling a player you wish they would replace out is fucking rude.

I'm posting in this thread not because I want to be nice to people and make friends or whatever, but because I want to win the game. I want you to replace not because I want to be rude, but because I think it would benefit town more if you did.

I consider myself a pretty decent player.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I don't think convincing a VI that they're a VI is really worth the effort.

Wanting to lynch me for having alts is wanting a policy lynch.

And Jesus Christ we've asked you to attack the argument and not the player so many times,

fucking listen.

[Chrimi]

VOTE: AstralFlare Refuse to participate and you'll fail to sway my vote.

[innocentvillager]

Sorry, I will get a VC on here tomorrow

[implosion]

0x40, you really need to cut out calling Chrimi a VI. It's starting to get a bit beyond rude and frankly you're just wrong, she isn't a VI. She's playing fine. She just has a playstyle that's oblique to what you seem to be used to. All you're doing by repeating things like this:

Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I don't think convincing a VI that they're a VI is really worth the effort.

is insulting Chrimi and distracting the town from focusing on important issues like, y'know, who's scum.

So let's cut out with the insults and focus on scumhunting.

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@0x40: with regards to your objections to policy lynching, I just remembered that you posted this...

A VI getting mislynched is a lot less bad than someone who knows how to play the game getting mislynched, so you being a VI is a valid reason to lynch you even though a VI has the same chance of being scum as everyone else here, as you won't be of as much use to town compared to a non-VI player.

which is literally a justification for why it's okay to policy lynch VIs. Do you not consider this to have anything to do with policy lynching? What is it if not advocating a policy lynch to say that we ought to lynch someone because they're a VI even if it doesn't make them more likely to be scum?

I somewhat like shannon's posts on this page. In particular 312 sounds like a townie genuinely frustrated, especially since it was effectively a double post, so it's not like she could be scum who was concerned that they hadn't said anything in too long. So I don't think I'm interested in pursuing her today.

Still most interested in tne/pp.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: AstralFlare Refuse to participate and you'll fail to sway my vote.

How am I refusing to participate? I'm not defending myself from your case, yes, but I'm participating in other ways. I see more value for town in doing this rather than pointlessly defending myself.

[AstralFlare]

The other thing I'm wondering is whether people *know* we won't be policy lynching (e.g. lynching lurkers) so they're being deliberately lurky D1 because they know they can get a way with it?

I think we've come to a conclusion that we shouldn't be policy lynching people for lurking, but I don't think anything regarding Lynch All Lurkers has been discussed?

While on the topic of lurking: I get that it's the weekend and there hasn't been much to go on lately, but this sudden (relative) silence is pretty worrying. cough TNE this is your cue.

@shannon How much of your 310 was sarcasm?

[shannon]

None of it was sarcasm!