Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[Cass]

The rest of my pbp on Rocnix:
239 - Accuses Jib of buddying, but not really. Weird post. Maybe weakly setting Jibs up in case she gets lynched and flips scum? (admittedly this is getting farfetched)
240, 244, 247 - Questions 0x40 a bit and defends Jibs from 0x40. Also hints that it would be a policy lynch; first instance of distancing herself from the imminent townie-lynch - just like Drone did!
262, 263 - Unvotes 0x40 because their omgus attack on jibs looks townie. Votes TNE because of null read. (This is a good vote.) Asks for guidance to play better.
269 - Explains to Jibs that she doesn't think 0x40 is scum anymore and that she tries not to alienate people. (Hmm. Insecure newbscum?)
271 - This one I can't quite parse. She seems to dispute the possibilty of being Chrimi's scum-partner and suggesting she would more likely be 0x40's partner?? That doesn't make sense, so I might be reading it wrong.
286 - Defends himself from PP who called him scummy. Pretty weak defense, also basically calls himself bad at the game as an excuse. Newbscum vibes again (or honest insecure newbtown). Lol, now Jibs is coaching her to make a case on him and vote him, even telling him who he might be able to convince. Rocnix recoild from this, smelling a trap, looks back anyways, doesn't see a case and declares Jibs town for helping her learn. (Feels like careful / insecure newbscum again.)
288 - Unvotes TNE because no wagon is happening. Makes a case on implosion that boils down to imp being passive and unhelpful. A bit flimsy, but ok for a day 1 case. Votes Imp.
297 - Unvotes Imp after he defends himself. Votes TNE again, planning to force a response this time. And this sets of alarmbells: Asks Shannon who she expects to be NK-ed. Pretty scummy question, but so obviously so that it actually seems unlikely for scum to do. Wifom? Slip?
303 - Explains that he asked Shannon because he reads her as scum or PR. Making it worse! Alarm bells!
306, 307 - Retracts the question after being called scummy over it, claiming it is due to other playstyles on other sites. And that she was trying to get more information about night 1 and to try and catch scum in lies. (Maybe... But no, not buying it.)
308 - Retires fot the night, to wake up entirely refreshed as Drone

So... How does everyone else feel about this? Do you hear the same alarm bells I do? Or just an insecure newb-town who's being very awkward?

[Cass]

And now for Drone:
437 - Enters with a really weird post. Looks like he's calling 0x40 not scum. Then throws some suspicion on Chrimi for voting behavior. Then ends with a FoS on 0x40 because he isn't claiming. Huh? Also, guessing English isn't you first language?
444 - Defends his playstyle. Then this (I quoted it before):

A mislynch would be really distasteful on day 1, but you are the only lead right now.

Distancing from what he (if scum) already knows is a mislynch.

Twilight has started now

474 - More of the same (Note: this is before the flip!)

In the end, the day ends up with what appears to be a policy lynch.

475 - Says bye to Jibs
481 - Asks TNE what she thinks 0x40 will flip. (Dunno... just making conversation with who was there?)
484 - Quoting the whole of this, since it's 100% distancing from mislynch:

Well, his behaviour seemed to hold the investigations down since he wouldn't let go and distract us all.
This feels like a policy. Him surviving the day would have surely made day 2 even harder. I know I Mostly noticed his provocative post when reading the 400 posts I read.
Speaking of which I might missed very important plays, I need to reread.
I know you thought at first he is scum, but now it's pretty obvious that's it's a vi, bad play, and his being convinced he knows it all better.

485 - Asks Shannon about her scum-list (narrowing down the NK options?)

Now Day 2 starts, no NK

504 Welcomes me, asks me if I see scum driving the D1 lynch. Still defending the lynch as a policy one:

As for mine and 0x40's case: I still call this a "policy" lynch. The way he was too obviously attacking everyone who didn't cooperate with him means he'd either be a terrible mafia trying to get a lynch asap, or a dull skilled towny who's trying really really hard/ showing off writing skills.

I too somewhat wanted to ask Jibs personally a few questions, but that won't happen.
So I'd sum up my thoughts of 0x40 wagon:
1) of all players, 0x40 was the distraction and could actually worsen day 2 if he was alive.
2) at some point, I believe a scum started directing the lynch (although not sure which).
When I say "directing" I mean, actively directing fire at him, as he already was the easiest and weakest candidate for a simple elimination.

And preparing a case on anyone on the wagon, but leaves it to other to point fingers? Still hearing those alarm bells.
505 - Oh, 'maybe' will name possibilities himself.
512 - Defends himself against my case on him. Not scummy in itself, but it feels dishonest (gut) and it sits a bit wrong that he ignores my other reads.
513, 516, 518 - no content
536, 537, 538 - Kinda agrees with Imp on the PP case, but also kinda dismisses it since he wasn't on the 0x40 wagon (not sure if reading this right?). Distrusts Chrimi's claim, sees she was actively on the wagon, gives her a FoS. Then Votes me for not (yet) answering a question, and for turning my attention quickly to TNE and Chrimi. (Who meanwhile had started a role-claim thing! It's distracting!) This seems really flimsy reasoning for a vote when there's also a roleclaim happening that you don't trust. Like, weird priorities. But not scum (unless Chrimi is his gambiting partner, but I'm assuming the claim is true).
560 - again distancing from 0x40 lynch. Many null reads, including me (but keeps vote on me, though started answering the original 'unanswered question' by now - doesn't comment on this fact now. Not that interested after all? Keeps door open for voting PP later, or maybe AF, Chrimi, me or TNE (once there's a wagon/deadline?) Read on Chrimi is pretty weird considering the claim should make it a pretty binary situation. This post is not reassuring at all.

[Chrimi]

Someone please tell me they can counterclaim Chrimi

Why, you don't want me to be town now? I'm hurt.

[innocentvillager]

Mod Notes

	VOTECOUNT 2.1
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. Cass	Drone	1
2. AstralFlare
3. PenguinPower	implosion, Chrimi, AstralFlare	3 (L-2)
5. Drone
6. Chrimi
7. thenewearth	shannon	1
8. shannon
9. implosion

Not voting: Cass, PenguinPower, thenewearth

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-09-06 12:09:21).

With 8 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[shannon]

Chrimi did you receive notification that you'd been hit but survived? Or did you receive no notification and are assuming that you were hit since there's no NK?

[implosion]

Why wouldn't town want to do the same? We're less than 2 days into D2. We've had a claim, but not everyone has responded since then. Why would I start/hop on a wagon so early? Re: Chrimi's possible scum slip...see post 552. I did the same, but shannon corrected. And yes, I haven't been very active D2...it's been a busy workweek this week. Sorry you're allowed to have that happen, but not me.

I'm not criticizing your activity at all, your activity level has been fine. But there are lots of reasons town will typically want to start or hop on a wagon early; as town, a vote that's on no one accomplishes nothing. By voting you can put pressure on someone, make it clear where you stand, and make yourself easier to read. By avoiding voting and listing a large pool of potential scumreads, if you're scum, you're setting yourself up to go with the flow whoever winds up being pressured among your scumreads without having to put yourself out there as much.

It implies that Rocnix was my strongest scum read D1, but I wasn't going to risk the town getting a no lynch or rushing at deadline. I previously said that a deadline rush to lynch cost town the game in my last newbie. You can read whatever else into that you want, but I pretty objectively stated that.

You're case against me is that I don't play this game like you do.

You also pretty objectively stated that your vote would remain on Rocnix until there were 72 hours left in the day (or until there was a scumslip or significant new information, neither of which I think appeared in that span). The fact that you sounded both eager to keep your vote on Rocnix and eager to take it off is just strange - I'm fine with the attitude of not wanting to rush at deadline, but I don't think your attitude in 389 is consistent with that attitude, especially given that there were about 24 hours between 389 and 410 which is a very short period of time to go from keeping your vote in one spot until further notice to avoiding a deadline rush.

[shannon]

Someone please tell me they can counterclaim Chrimi

I'll explain when there's actually no counterclaim

Remember guys,

Matrix6 is PR-solvable

TNE, Enough with the cryptic crap, and the contradictions. Why do you want to lynch our PR claim when is also a pseudo innocent-child?
What do you mean about matrix 6 being PR-solvable? (Can our IC throw any light on this?)

Do you mean you want to lynch Chrimi today? Because you also just called her a pseudo-innocent-child, right? Or just that you would have had the claim come on a later day?

For now, because of 568 which makes sense:

UNVOTE: The New Earth

Would like to hear everyones opinion about this situation.

My opinion is that you shouldn't unvote for exactly the reason you stated in the start of this post. Why is TNE wanting Chrimi's lynch on the one hand, and calling her conf town on the other? (That's how I read the pseudo-innocent child comment).

[implosion]

OK, here's a question for everyone. All else being equal, at the end of D1, who did you think would be the D2 lynch and why?

This isn't something that I think I've ever considered at the end of an early day. Honestly i don't really think about games much at all overnight, particularly as town of course. I didn't have any amount of thought at the end of d1 as to who would be the d2 lynch. My best scumread at that point was pp if that's what you meant.

@Cass, the points on rocnix are by and large not bad on first glance. Not sure what to make of him "distancing" from the 0x lynch. It looks like he just calls it a policy lynch repeatedly, and I agree that it is a little strange to frame it that way so much. Potentially in a scummy way. It's not really distancing himself from the lynch, it's sort of like he's discrediting the lynch as being meaningful.

I can see drone potentially being a good candidate. My reason for townreading rocnix was her doing a 180 on me but eh. I can think of a couple of reasons why that's a bad reason. Curious how drone responds to the part of the iso on him.

[PenguinPower]

You also pretty objectively stated that your vote would remain on Rocnix until there were 72 hours left in the day (or until there was a scumslip or significant new information, neither of which I think appeared in that span). The fact that you sounded both eager to keep your vote on Rocnix and eager to take it off is just strange - I'm fine with the attitude of not wanting to rush at deadline, but I don't think your attitude in 389 is consistent with that attitude, especially given that there were about 24 hours between 389 and 410 which is a very short period of time to go from keeping your vote in one spot until further notice to avoiding a deadline rush.

I like the manipulation here...well done. I especially like the appeal to emotion with the "eager" wording...which I was never in either situation. At the time of that post, it had been four days from Roxnix's last post. Yeah, there were more than 24 hours - not by much - but there was also a difference of a possible return or replace out. As of post 410 it was obvious the slot was going to be replaced and a D1 focus wasn't going to accomplish anything.

Care to present post 432 442 and 451? At this time, we were heading into a weekend deadline and I wanted to get a claim...which should be apparent.

[implosion]

I'm also not sure what she means by it being PR-solvable.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

The existence of a BP claim doesn't tell us a ton; it's not confirmable in the event that we're in setup 1, the fact that there's two setups with only one power role means that having two PR claims doesn't make them both true. And even having three PR claims you can't always figure out which one is fake (if there's bp+jk+tracker claims it could be that the jk is fake, the tracker is fake, or both the bp+tracker are fake).

So yeah really idk what she means.

[implosion]

You also pretty objectively stated that your vote would remain on Rocnix until there were 72 hours left in the day (or until there was a scumslip or significant new information, neither of which I think appeared in that span). The fact that you sounded both eager to keep your vote on Rocnix and eager to take it off is just strange - I'm fine with the attitude of not wanting to rush at deadline, but I don't think your attitude in 389 is consistent with that attitude, especially given that there were about 24 hours between 389 and 410 which is a very short period of time to go from keeping your vote in one spot until further notice to avoiding a deadline rush.

I like the manipulation here...well done. I especially like the appeal to emotion with the "eager" wording...which I was never in either situation. At the time of that post, it had been four days from Roxnix's last post. Yeah, there were more than 24 hours - not by much - but there was also a difference of a possible return or replace out. As of post 410 it was obvious the slot was going to be replaced and a D1 focus wasn't going to accomplish anything.

Care to present post 432 442 and 451? At this time, we were heading into a weekend deadline and I wanted to get a claim...which should be apparent.

"eager" may have been inaccurate.

When you call my post manipulative, are you implying that it is in a scummy way?

Why do you think it was significantly more obvious that the slot was going to be replaced as of post 410 compared to 389? Essentially what I see right now is that you flipped this over the span of only one day, which to me doesn't seem to be enough time to go from thinking the pressure on rocnix was worth it to thinking rocnix was probably going to be replaced.

Also I'm not sure what you mean with regards to 432, 442 and 451.

[PenguinPower]

You also pretty objectively stated that your vote would remain on Rocnix until there were 72 hours left in the day (or until there was a scumslip or significant new information, neither of which I think appeared in that span). The fact that you sounded both eager to keep your vote on Rocnix and eager to take it off is just strange - I'm fine with the attitude of not wanting to rush at deadline, but I don't think your attitude in 389 is consistent with that attitude, especially given that there were about 24 hours between 389 and 410 which is a very short period of time to go from keeping your vote in one spot until further notice to avoiding a deadline rush.

I like the manipulation here...well done. I especially like the appeal to emotion with the "eager" wording...which I was never in either situation. At the time of that post, it had been four days from Roxnix's last post. Yeah, there were more than 24 hours - not by much - but there was also a difference of a possible return or replace out. As of post 410 it was obvious the slot was going to be replaced and a D1 focus wasn't going to accomplish anything.

Care to present post 432 442 and 451? At this time, we were heading into a weekend deadline and I wanted to get a claim...which should be apparent.

"eager" may have been inaccurate.

When you call my post manipulative, are you implying that it is in a scummy way?

Why do you think it was significantly more obvious that the slot was going to be replaced as of post 410 compared to 389? Essentially what I see right now is that you flipped this over the span of only one day, which to me doesn't seem to be enough time to go from thinking the pressure on rocnix was worth it to thinking rocnix was probably going to be replaced.

Also I'm not sure what you mean with regards to 432, 442 and 451.

We went past the "prod" deadline after those 24 hours. It was obvious at that point that Rocnix was going to be replaced. My reference to the posts are why I changed my vote where I did even though I had scum read Rocnix slot.

When I call your posts manipulative, I mean that they seem that way. Town could manipulate for town reasons or scum for scum reasons. I'm not sure yet. Why do you always try an attribute my actions to be scum reading someone?

[implosion]

Why do you always try an attribute my actions to be scum reading someone?

I specifically wasn't doing this. Accusing someone of being manipulative is often accusing them of being scummy so I wanted to clarify.

Gonna try this and see what happens.

Unvote

VOTE: Drone

[Chrimi]

Chrimi did you receive notification that you'd been hit but survived? Or did you receive no notification and are assuming that you were hit since there's no NK?

BPs don't get notified that they'd been hit.

[shannon]

OK, so why claim BP then, and make a fuss about being protected? Surely scum were just as likely to think they'd been doctored, JKed, etc?

[shannon]

If PP is right in 586, that we had gone past the prod deadline and that's why he changed votes, then this is the second time that I've noticed Implosion misusing post timelines to try to imagine reasons for things. The first is when I asked him about questioning but not voting 0x40, and he blamed it on there being two competing wagons - the first of which was pretty clearly disbanding after already reaching L-1.

[shannon]

I'm also not sure what she means by it being PR-solvable.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

The existence of a BP claim doesn't tell us a ton; it's not confirmable in the event that we're in setup 1, the fact that there's two setups with only one power role means that having two PR claims doesn't make them both true. And even having three PR claims you can't always figure out which one is fake (if there's bp+jk+tracker claims it could be that the jk is fake, the tracker is fake, or both the bp+tracker are fake).

So yeah really idk what she means.

I'm not even sure I know what PR solvable means - is it that certain PRs can solve the game, given a BP claim? Or is it that we can work out from fake claims which PRs are in the game? The other interpretation I have of it is that TNE is signalling that she's noticed a soft PR claim, and in light of Chrimi's BP claim, she can solve the game. Or is it something else? I'd really appreciate clarification here because I think it's interesting from a theory standpoint, as well as with regard to this game specifically.

[implosion]

Yeah I don't know what PR solvable means to begin with. In that post I was attempting to guess X_X

[implosion]

If PP is right in 586, that we had gone past the prod deadline and that's why he changed votes, then this is the second time that I've noticed Implosion misusing post timelines to try to imagine reasons for things. The first is when I asked him about questioning but not voting 0x40, and he blamed it on there being two competing wagons - the first of which was pretty clearly disbanding after already reaching L-1.

Point me to exactly what you're referring to here.

[AstralFlare]

Gonna try this and see what happens.

Unvote

VOTE: Drone

I'm going to call you scum partners with PP that's what. He rebutted your argument, you didn't seem convinced by his rebuttal, and yet you took your vote away and put it on Drone.

@Cass, the points on rocnix are by and large not bad on first glance. Not sure what to make of him "distancing" from the 0x lynch. It looks like he just calls it a policy lynch repeatedly, and I agree that it is a little strange to frame it that way so much. Potentially in a scummy way. It's not really distancing himself from the lynch, it's sort of like he's discrediting the lynch as being meaningful.

I can see drone potentially being a good candidate. My reason for townreading rocnix was her doing a 180 on me but eh. I can think of a couple of reasons why that's a bad reason. Curious how drone responds to the part of the iso on him.

Who your entire case on is that he calls the 0x40 vote a policy lynch and that's scummy.

Sure you want pressure on Drone to see his reaction to the ISO, but your pressure on PP has yielded no scumhunting from him, so why not keep it there? Why go from a 3 man wagon to a 0 man one?

[AstralFlare]

Drone: In your readlist you said Chrimi was null and yet your vote is on her, and not on PP who has a scum lean. Also there's a lot of nulls in there, if you had to choose a second person as scum who would it be?

[AstralFlare]

Cass not Chrimi*

[Cass]

Feeling a bit awkward right now about not voting, but I'm torn.
- A PP vote would put him on L-1, I'm not convinced he is scum so not willing to do that. Should do another ISO, because his day 1 made me lean town on him.
- A Drone vote - I want to, but Implosion's switch to him makes me wary. Need to figure out why.
- Part of me wants to put the vote the vote back on TNE, as she's being infuriating and even the IC can't make sense of her reasoning. But the other part of me is still optimistinc that she'll clear it all up and really can solve the game (but how??).

I need to think about this. I want Drone to talk, TNE to talk, if there is an actual CC it'd better happen now - though I don't really understand why TNE would still expect one.

[Cass]

Reasons why claiming BP now is better than with fewer people:

1) Destroys LyLo WIFOM of "who the real BP is", which is very a very common mistake BPs do
2) Limits fake claims where either, the real PR and the CC both die, which gives +1 unexplainable kill for scum, or, outs a more useful PR completely. Lets face it, not only is BP useless, its more anti-town than pro-town.
3) Pseudo-Innocent Child. Always helps
4) JK is strong, Tracker is stronger. You heard me right. Tracker is strong. On a matrix6 setup, anyways. You just need a bit of logic.

Weaker reasons why BP should claim on D1 when their PR is used

1) Better NK speculation
2) 70% of people would lynch the BP on MyLo. Its a thing that BP is the most anti-town claim in the universe

It makes some sense, but not really when I think it over. Claiming on D3 makes sense (in our situation), that is: claiming before LyLo. But, in this situation, the BP would not even know they were targeted! There could have been some other target + a Jailkeeper. Nor wpould scum know the difference, right? So it seems much better to me to keep them wondering for another night and claim after that. (I'm still willing to be convinced that I am missing something.)

Also yes I'm one of those persons who want BP claims to be lynched
Which is Ironic because I once claimed BP and won because of it

This still doesn't make sense.

Do you mean you want to lynch Chrimi today? Because you also just called her a pseudo-innocent-child, right? Or just that you would have had the claim come on a later day?

For now, because of 568 which makes sense:

UNVOTE: The New Earth

Would like to hear everyones opinion about this situation.

I want to but I don't need to

In combination with this. You want to lynch her (now? or at some other point?). But you don't need to? Why?? Are you assuming she'll be the NK? Or that you will be? This only makes sense if you're hinting some knowledge of other power roles, but even then I can't make it fit together or make sense of you push to claim.
Or did you mean by PR-solvable that Scum can work out the roles from certain claims?

[Cass]

One more question, TNE: Who do you think should be lynched today? Chrimi? And assuming that won't happen (very likely), who then?