Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[MathBlade]

Replacement confirmed will read when I get home.

[MathBlade]

Cool. So three more days to fiddle around with. Lets see what I can do tomorrow.

Welcome to the game MathBlade.

Thanks! So why are the top three wagons getting votes? Next post should succinctly summarize your thoughts while I start reading and ISOing.

[MathBlade]

Hoopla is likely either scum or at least one scum on the wagon as there wasn't a quick shift towards lynching Egg or putting an additional vote to push a claim.

So we have a world whether either Hoopla is scum and/or one of Elyse/Grendel/Egg are scum.

When I get further along I will post general thoughts but the town block stuff from Hoopla rubbed me the wrong way at the start of the game.

@group -- Haven't seen any succinct thoughts yet. I especially want them from Hoopla/Elsye/Grendel/Egg because there has to be scum in that group.

[MathBlade]

Grendel, if Masquerade is a vig and still has a shot, this is a CONFIRMABLE role with a second kill tonight. Scum probably won't have a roleblocker this game, as a blocking role has already flipped town, so we absolutely should see another kill tonight if Masq is truthful. If no extra kill happens tonight, sure, we lynch him tomorrow (or if he claims he shot last night, we can lynch him today).

Masquerade is a pointless lynch today, when it's highly likely we'll know his alignment tomorrow.

Still reading but out of those 4 Grendel is town since they CC'd Masquerade.
This post from Hoopla is hella bad. Looks like Hoopla is trying to buy time for another kill.

Intent to vote Hoopla. << As stated before I think scum could flash hammer while I am reading here so I want to be caught up before I vote.

[MathBlade]

throwing this out there, why would cmit be roleblocked

I think it's more likely ascetic or rolestopper making elyse scum

Because scum intended to keep cmitc1 alive until lylo or when he was lynched, as such, they are minimising risk and RB'ing him in case he has power? Doesn't seem like a stretch.

My pet theory is scum having a rolestopper though, and Elyse being protected by her buddies from kills/investigations as she was looking the most likely to go deep in the game.

Either seem possible. Lucky for you molla, I want Masquerade and Blank to die first, which will tell me if Elyse is scum before we try and find the tricky third scum.

Why would Hoopla be discussing scum's intentions here? And how would he know them? If he was town wouldn't he think that same question? How would Hoopla KNOW that scum wanted to keep Cmit alive?
This soft defense of Elyse screams a Hoopla/Elyse world. Will be looking more into that as I read.

[MathBlade]

^that's good, cmitc.

~~

VOTE: Masquerade

Hopefully we lynch the scum PR today.

1) If scum have 1 PR how does Hoopla know? This assumes facts not in evidence. Assuming Hoopla scum here this probably makes them a goon.

[MathBlade]

Wingback BBMolla Grendel all town reads so far.

Looking at either Hoopla/Elyse world
Or
Egg/KTS world.

Much more likely the first.

[MathBlade]

Haven't even looked at a single Masq post, but this wagon looks incredibly scum driven.

Hoopla could be bussing

With masquerade flipping scum this interaction looks hella suspicious.
This is one of the main reasons why I suspect a potential Egg/KTS world here.
If KTS genuinely thought the wagon was scum driven why aren't they voting Hoopla now?
Is it because they know Hoopla is town and Egg was picked to be on it?

Going to read KTS's later posts and see if that is explained.

[MathBlade]

Ewww KTS's posts today are ugly. Especially calling Hoopla town after calling the Masq wagon scum drive. But then calls Hoopla town as Hoopla was a driving force of the wagon.

So Hoopla/Elyse OR Egg/KTS.

Leaning towards Hoopla/Elyse.

[MathBlade]

This is horribad. No unique reads and sheepers mine while calling me scum.

She needs rope badly.

[MathBlade]

sheeps*

[MathBlade]

Sure do! I practically own stock in greyhound with how much I bus as scum. A good bus is one that is ineffective and weak and entirely unconvincing yet believable. It is also effective when it is perceived you don't have to bus. Wingback can attest to this in 1800 but I bussed Karnos with practically every post I wrote.

The only time I found Hoopla and Elyse going at each other is during that fight. I think that fight was setup for a bus. They didn't really have Hoopla as a scumread far as I can tell. I also find the majority of the posts here completely devoid of any "hootspah".

However if Hoopla is town then Elyse is probably town. A post like 1200 I don't see happening unless Elyse and Hoopla are of the same alignment. Elsye notes the scumminess of Hoopla's vote hopping to seemingly avoid Masq. If they were differing alignments then I would have expected this to happen during the Masq lynch. Therefore either Elyse and Hoopla are scum together or Elyse is confbiasing and looking for more to be convincing.

I don't see a world where Hoopla scum and Elyse town because then Hoopla would have countered saying he wasn't being scummy when Elyse brought up the point in 1200.

I think 1200 is pretty damning for Hoopla and Elyse.

[MathBlade]

Back late tonight.

[MathBlade]

Hoopla's actions just don't jive with me.

First, she changes her vote from Vedith to BlankFace to "switch up the wagons":

i genuinely don't know what is going on now.

i am mostly waiting for the non-contributors to contribute and over-contributors to stop.

lets switch up the vedith/blankface wagons:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: blankface

The Vedith wagon stalled at this point so changing it up makes sense to see how the momentum of a BlankFace wagon will go.

Do you think Vedith is town now?

he's still in my small pool of lynch targets, but his wagon has stalled recently, so i'm seeing if a blankface wagon will create some new buzz.

ideally i'd like a blankface/vedith wagon battle today.

Here she hypes up a Vedith vs BlankFace duel to the death.

Then, she hastily narrows down the choices to Vedith or BlankFace:

House, Rob, Molla aren't being lynched today. There simply isn't enough support. If there had been, we definitely would have seen it after these last few days.

Vedith and Blankface are good choices that most people seem open to.

This is fine. I thought BB was a good wagon (still think he's scum) but Hoopla didn't feel that way and there's no issue with her channeling the votes toward wagons she likes.

this is essentially a matter of wifom at the moment, but i believe vedith would have fake-claimed a PR as scum here. he seems very much like a VT giving up to me - scum usually aren't so chill with their own demise.

i know towns don't have a tendency to let VT claims live, but it's exceedingly rare for scum to claim VT upon being the first wagon forced to claim. does anyone else share these sentiments?

I found this a very strange reason to townread Vedith. It's weak, and she barely pushes it. For someone who championed either Vedith or BlankFace all day, her townread on Vedith should have made her go full steam ahead on BlankFace. It seemed to me like she wanted the Vedith lynch to still go through but didn't want to be associated with it.

The remainder of her posts on D1 are not urgent at all...the only thing she really does is tell cmit to make a choice, which is obvious for anyone to do at this point.

I think this post:

It's hard to tell how meaningful Vedith eclipsing Blankface's wagon is. My gut instinct is Blank is town too. There was a lot of movement and stalling between the two wagons, to the point where it seemed like scum didn't care which one died, which implies Blank is town. I think if he were scum, we'd have seen less of a challenge on Blank's wagon and Vedith's wagon would have been piled on more earlier when Blank was faint lynch risk. I find on D1 scum tend to be preventative like that, rather than letting it get to a stage where they need to choose between bussing or deliberately voting a town over an under pressure scum.

accurately explains Hoopla's behavior D1. She was the engineer behind the Vedith vs BlankFace deathmatch and didn't seem to care which one died. This would be fine if she scumread both of them, but she thought Vedith's claim made him town. So why was she content in saying "I think Vedith is probably town for his claim" and then remain silent and let him be lynched anyway?

tl;dr
Hoopla steered the lynches toward two townies, didn't care which one was lynched, made a half-assed defense of Vedith to make herself look better, and did nothing to stop her townread from being lynched. I expected more "GET YOUR VOTES ON BLANKFACE!" from her.

Here is the only time Elsye really does it and then switches to Masquerade. There was little discussion at Hoopla. This screams setup.

[MathBlade]

I don't see a world where Hoopla scum and Elyse town

If this is the case, why are you planning to vote Hoopla?

Good point.

VOTE: Hoopla

[MathBlade]

That doesn't make any sense. You just said there is no way you can see Elyse being town if Hoopla is scum so shouldn't you be voting Elyse by that logic?

Pedit: Will get to Elyse's post after this.

..I just said I see Hoopla and Elyse together and both are scum. I don't have two votes. Like what?

At work not reading that long post til I get home.

[MathBlade]

@Grendel Yes please. I want to see where people stand on Hoopla/Egg.

@Wingback My town read of BBMolla is mechanics based. Quite simply Cmit was a neighborizer and Cmit died. This means Cmit was either roleblocked or scum. If Cmit was roleblocked the kill had to be roleblocked. If the kill was roleblocked Grendel would have to be the partner. Grendel as scum partners with Masquerade wouldn't CC her and sure wouldn't claim roleblocked the next day. Therefore Cmit was not roleblocked. Since Cmit was not roleblocked he targeted someone. No one CC'd Molla. Ergo BBMolla is town.

[MathBlade]

or scum killed him*

[MathBlade]

I prefer Hoopla because it makes more sense to me than the Egg world. Notice how Hoopla is at L-1 and didn't claim. And no quick hammer. This means Hoopla likely scum.

[MathBlade]

My bad I missed it sorry. Part of speed reading.

[MathBlade]

Still prefer Hoopla to Egg though. Gut.

[MathBlade]

Wouldn't you need to know more about Hoopla to know weather she is reluctant, or quick, to bus her partners as scum? Judging solely from her play this game I would say that Hoopla doesn't seem like the kind of scum player to be quick to bus her partners. So I could definitely see her hoping to salvage Mask at least one more day. I do think that that unvote was indicative of wanting to see if she could save Mask (Which makes more sense as scum since as you pointed out- Mask did not have two town posts to rub together), and she led the reasoning that Mask could use his shot to clear himself tomorrow. The thing about that is with Cmitc1 confirming there being a role blocker it seems like she would recant the plan to clear Mask via shooting right then and there since he would be blocked if he were a vigilante. Instead of moving back to interrogate Mask however, she jumped on me in post 1052. At that point Mask would no longer be confirmable, so why was she interested in trying to lynch a new target? I am not seeing the town intent from that.

This is an excellent point.

I disagree with that theory pretty strongly. For instance, in the Queen Micro, most of the town zoned in on me or BNL. When I started looking outside the pair of us at you and TTH, the general response was something like "he's keeping his options open, therefore scum." It turned out that the final scum wasn't in BNL/me so looking elsewhere was a necessity. I see a somewhat similar situation here with most players looking inside just Hoopla/Blankface and I'm not even close to convinced that that's the team.

I think that's the exception to the rule. Plus I never thought BNL was scum. I just found it suspicious how Hoopla townread BB on day 1 and suddenly started questioning him when his play has been the same the whole time.

Why are you townreading Egg? Sure, he voted Masquerade early but a lot of his posts seem like the casual, passive followups that scum typically while not staying engaged in the moment. On hindsight, I also thought his Masquerade reasoning was pretty weak.

Egg is more of a gut read. Like you said his Masq push was early, earlier than I expect bussing scum to push, and a lot of his posts just jive with what I'm thinking about the game. I don't see him being buddies with Hoopla either which isn't a strong point since she hasn't flipped yet. But you think he's scum with me, and I know that's not the case. What other buddy do you see for him? Blank?

Why BBMolla? We know now that him being in the neighborhood says nothing about his alignment. You had him as a scumread D1 along with Rob. What changed that you abandoned that read? Also, neither of them have been posting much at all lately and just coasting through the game.

If Hoopla is town I will have to reevaluate this read but I really, really do not see Hoopla townreading BB and keeping him in her pocket the entire game only to randomly cast doubt on him now. Her unjustified townread on him based on his "emotional outburst" just screams scum trying to keep a strong town player on her side. (Not that BB has been strong this game, he's barely been a presence)

Checked Egg's scum-meta to see what he's like as scum. The first game I looked at re-affirmed my suspicions that he was bussing Masquerade. For instance, take a look at his ISO here and Ctrl+F "Newbie" who is one of his partners. Egg replaces into the game and makes a giant catchup post most of which are points against his buddy capping it off with a vote at the end. Egg's partner wasn't under much pressure at all and the wagon was started by Egg. The stark similarity between that and his push on Masquerade here in Post 208 should nullify the reasons anyone is townreading him. Granted, he's also townread his partners in other games (his partner Beck in this game) but my point is that his posts in this game are scummy and his interactions with Masquerade shouldn't be a reason for a townread him as they fit very, very well into the range of how Egg interacts with his buddies. In fact, his push on Masquerade was based on very nebulous reasoning and him winding up being right at the end fits much more with an informed perspective than town that genuinely found scum.

Solidly confident Egg is scum here and I'd like everyone to engage me on this read.

Egg tying Hoopla to Masquerade pre-flip also makes more sense from scum tying his partner to the townie he wants to lynch next to set her up. Not at all sure who Egg's buddy is at this point. Just don't think it's Hoopla.

I don't rely on meta much at all, but there are some situations that call for bussing more than others. I normally hate bussing but in some games I have to do it. I don't think looking at one game is a strong enough reason to completely abandon my reason for townreading Egg. Hoopla's "let's let Masq shoot and prove himself" reads much more as what scum would do to me than Egg's early vote on Masq.

Re your points in 1323:

1. I understand what you're saying here. Egg was trying to push Masq-scum to make himself look good and used weak reasoning to do so. But for me the timing is still off. It was so early in the game and didn't lead to anything. He didn't get any credit for doing it. I just think the risks outweigh the benefits so early on.

2. This is a decent point if Egg is scum with BlankFace. But one major reason I personally stayed on Vedith was because he already claimed at that point and I thought it was unnecessary to force a claim out of BlankFace if I was fine with either of the two wagons.

3. Egg wanted to let Masq confirm his shot before Grendel claimed, so I don't have much of an issue with that. I also found it very town of him to vote for Hoopla when Hoopla and kts voted for Grendel right before deadline. Egg could have so easily went with them and said "deadline" but didn't.

4. Yeah his play today hasn't been spectacular. I agree there. But besides yours, no one's has. The game kind of went stale and I could see frustration being a reason for his "tempted to lynch BlankFace" post because it took even more momentum out of the game.

Why do you think it could be BB as Egg's partner now? I thought our unexplained townreads on each other were scummy.

^that's good, cmitc.

~~

VOTE: Masquerade

Hopefully we lynch the scum PR today.

1) If scum have 1 PR how does Hoopla know? This assumes facts not in evidence. Assuming Hoopla scum here this probably makes them a goon.

HAHAHA

Someone else sees it! Though you suggesting a me/Hoopla team is

Anyone know if Elyse tunnels as scum?

Elyse: I'd be happy for some self-meta from you if you're down.

I don't tunnel as scum. I also don't think I tunnel as town except once in a while I get stuck on someone.

Recent towngames:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=67138
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=64520
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=64409 (I tunneled on Titus really bad here and it blew up in my face)

Recent scumgames:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=65280 (third party)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=64487
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61085


*recent is like 6 months ago lol besides Queen Mafia

This is a fishy turnaround though

Sure do! I practically own stock in greyhound with how much I bus as scum. A good bus is one that is ineffective and weak and entirely unconvincing yet believable. It is also effective when it is perceived you don't have to bus. Wingback can attest to this in 1800 but I bussed Karnos with practically every post I wrote.

The only time I found Hoopla and Elyse going at each other is during that fight. I think that fight was setup for a bus. They didn't really have Hoopla as a scumread far as I can tell. I also find the majority of the posts here completely devoid of any "hootspah".

However if Hoopla is town then Elyse is probably town. A post like 1200 I don't see happening unless Elyse and Hoopla are of the same alignment. Elsye notes the scumminess of Hoopla's vote hopping to seemingly avoid Masq. If they were differing alignments then I would have expected this to happen during the Masq lynch. Therefore either Elyse and Hoopla are scum together or Elyse is confbiasing and looking for more to be convincing.

I don't see a world where Hoopla scum and Elyse town because then Hoopla would have countered saying he wasn't being scummy when Elyse brought up the point in 1200.

I think 1200 is pretty damning for Hoopla and Elyse.

This is just ridiculous.

First of all why are you saying you're gonna vote Hoopla if you can't see Hoopla scum and me-town?

You keep bringing up 1200 and saying I should have brought up Hoopla's scumminess during the Masq lynch. Why would I do that before Masq flipped? I brought it up the very next day. So did Egg. So did Grendel. It seems as though your "tells" could point to all three of us.

In your mind, what's stopping an Egg/Hoopla team?

This looks to me like you're bussing Hoopla and trying to bring me down with her.

p-edit: so why not vote me?

....Again with this.

Are people seriously arguing that I should magically divine which of my scum reads I should vote? Like I can't even. So I am bussing because I am not voting you. There is no substance there. You are merely attacking me for voting.

This has to be a Hiplop/Elyse team.

I have been called scum before but not for the simple act of voting. This is so bad it has to be scum with Hoopla.

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade, mechanics isn't a reason to clear BBMolla:

MOD: Would a Weak Neighbourizers' action still succeed on a mafioso despite dying?

Yes, a Weak Neighborizer who successfully targets a Mafia player would both add that player to the Neighborhood PT (Neighborizer) and die (Weak).

We know that the scum killed cmitc1 and cmitc1 recruited BBMolla. This would happen regardless of BBMolla's alignment.

What are your thoughts on his play?

Damn K. That is bastard to me but can be addressed post game. Honestly when the claim of neighborizer came up UNCC'd I figured they were town. Likely still do as claiming it on the night a neighborizer died is stupid. Will reread BBMolla's ISO.

[MathBlade]

Still prefer Hoopla to Egg though. Gut.

One reason I'm thinking Hoopla's probably town is that most of her responses are directed at me and she isn't talking to anyone but me.

If she's scum, I put myself out on a limb to defend her making me a potential juicy mislynch if she's lynched and flips scum. Given that, I think she'd want to at least make it look like we're partners but spending the entirety of her time buddying me, telling me I'm obliterating the game, and that she'll sheep me where I want to go sort of undermines that and helps people correctly figure out that she's scum buddying a town-me and makes it less likely I get mislynched after her flip.

I suppose the counter to that is that she's hoping I'm successful at driving the lynch off of her but if that's what she's rooting for, she'd be helping me do that by offering content. And if she saw the writing on the wall as scum and was resigned to a lynch, she wouldn't be buddying me so much and making it harder for her partner to get mislynches after she's gone.

That is one way that scum would do it. Another option is to lie low if their buddy is town read a lot like Elyse and quickly die. However the game stalled so the more it prolonged the more they had to post.

[MathBlade]

It actually does do a lot for him.

For BBMolla to be scum. Scum would have to kill Cmit and Cmit would have to visit BBMolla.
The other option is Grendel scum.

Assume BBMolla scum. Why would they shoot Cmit when Cmit listed them as town? That seems stupid.

Still rereading BBMolla's ISO.

[MathBlade]

Evens is irrelevant if all the players incorrectly read town as scum. My point is that Cmit read BBMolla as town. If BBMolla scum they would have died eventually. Furthermore I skimmed BBMOlla's ISO and they are hella helpful. (Look at Mass Effect for example for a scum replace in for them)

When caught they trolled. Before that they were dead weight. Here they have a productive D1z furthermore I don't see them being scum with Hoopla based on what happened d1. This means Egg or KTS as I don't see BBMolla/Elyse. The only viable possibility here is BBMolla/Egg but even that is a huge stretch compared to Egg/KTS.

While it is literally possible for BBMolla to be scum it is very very very unlikely to the point of not considering their lynch today.

[MathBlade]

ah shit

Hoopla?

If anything: this here and one other fluff posts are the only times that KTS and Egg interact. Between that and the Quickhammer suggestion above that looks as if it belongs in day chat, if Egg is scum it is with KTS.

[MathBlade]

Cool hoopla is town

Dropping quick unprovoked reads
Trying to correct site meta they perceive as bad
Trying to steer people towards play he considers good and improve people as a whole
Being a jackass (I hate meta but when BBMolla is a jackass they are likely town)
Poking people and trying to in general display where they fuck up and help.

In contrast look at BBMolla's replace into Mass Effect Mafia.
When BBMolla is scum I have scumdar pings in my head.
BBMolla IMHO is not scum.

[MathBlade]

And I am phone posting so links are hard but I tried to go in chronological order for you.

[MathBlade]

Took a glance at the game you are referring to (Mass Effect) and it's not helpful for meta at all given there are six different alignments. I'd classify it more as Mish Mash than mafia.

None of the things you listed are towntells or alignment-relevant. They are all easy things for scum to do to look helpful.

I have played with Molla face to face and on site. This is his town game.

I have not seen you make an argument why BBMolla is scum besides "not useful". I have said they were useful and your response is being helpful is what scum does to look town.

I do not ever plan on voting BBMolla without an argument. Of which I don't think anyone can do.

[MathBlade]

I am down to lynch either but I want Hoopla first. Hoopla doesn't seem to care but Egg does. That kind of apathy I see out of caught scum more often than town.

[MathBlade]

Because I am town and there isn't a case. If you think I am scum then make a case.

I am going to work. Hoopla needs rope people.

[MathBlade]

@Wingback WTF? That was hammer.

I explicitly said Hoopla was at L-1 when I voted.

I am at work so will read the text late tonight if thread not locked.

[MathBlade]

Just read the paragraph and my townread on Wingback is shattered.

Why did you fucking hammer when you said I was scum? Why not push that further? Instead you freaking hammer the person your supposed scumread asks you to?? How does this make any sense.

General paranoia does not excuse sheeping a scumread.

Based on that logic I can never townread anyone or it is 1800 all over again.

Like no. I am reviewing Wingback tonight.

[MathBlade]

I KNOW I am not scum but the fact you didn't even ask a question to me to try to figure out my alignment and instead hammered Hoopla but I am still waiting for people to fucking respond to me and you instantly hammer before Grendel who is pretty much universally town read posts a damn thing.

Are you seriously scared of conversation that fucking much? I have not had a chance to fucking interact with some of the players at all. If tomorrow is LyLo I only have my reads to go off for those people?

Answer me: Why did you hammer?

[MathBlade]

...oh, I meant to put up more content, but it looks like we're in twilight now.

My reads haven't changed much. Egg, BBmolla, and Eylse are strong town reads with Egg bien the strongest. Recently feeling a town lean on Wingback, but not completely counting him out of being a scum. Math/Hoopla are scum team, and KTS is the trusty third option.

I'll start on Math's request. Hopefully I can finish it before twilight ends.

First thank you for doing that in a nice succinct manner. I think we can then determine the following:

If Hiplop flips scum hooray -- Those three people are probably town. As I said earlier don't see Hiplop and Elyse being scum together. Grendel scum is IMHO all kinds of wrong and Egg I don't see with Hiplop so that would make Wingback scum for that atrocious hammer or scum was off the wagon but leaning Wingback.

If Hiplop flips town then one of the three in Elyse/Grendel/Egg is scum based on vote count.

My gut is probably Egg of those and how Wingback shut down my entry into the game, Wingback or KTS are Egg's partner.

IMHO all three of Egg/Wingback/KTS need scrutiny.

[MathBlade]

I explicitly said Hoopla was at L-1 when I voted./quote]
Right, and I explicitly said I was hammering and posted the reasons why. You are acting like I was pretending to not know that I hammered.

I didn't hammer because anybody asked me to. I felt that with the state of the game (Elyse, Grendel, Egg, Math) all set on Hoopla, if I try to lynch someone else today and wind up being wrong, that's pretty much game over if Hoopla is town. This way, everyone gets a chance to re-evaluate. I was also questioning my townread on Hoopla given low activity level and not much to go on since I replaced in.

General paranoia does not excuse sheeping a scumread.

What general paranoia? Where did I sheep anyone, let alone a scumread?

This over-reaction pretty much confirms Math as scum. She's spewing rubbish and if she's not vigged or lynched tomorrow, I'll be very disappointed.

Yes you did. You were waffling back and forth on Egg/Hoopla of which to do.

I was the only person posting anything other than one liners. Then you just "decide" to follow my suggestion of Hoopla. Following someone is sheeping! And you just did it to a scumread without trying to figure out the game. If you seriously thought I was scum you would have posted arguments.

Not referenced a completed game that you yourself debunked. You are trying to create an excuse for what was an anti town hammer and didn't even allow me to catch up with people.

I have to go to a work meeting but this was bad by Wingback.

[MathBlade]

Too many words. Will read tomorrow. Just be careful as this is probably mylo with 6 players.

[MathBlade]

Too long didn't read version of Wingback's posts:

They decided I am scum yesterday after I posted in a hurry.
Based off that flawed assumption they then try to pick my partner.
Then they don't actually post anything scummy I have done but stuff that fits their dumb little world.
Then they go on and say this is my 1800 meta to try to paint me as scum when they specifically said earlier it didn't apply.

So still two of Wingback/Egg/KTS and Wingback's paranoid ravings do nothing to help their cause. Especially since the whole "It's MathBlade and Egg" thing yesterday.

I think advocating for a no lynch at the start of the day is pretty good actually. The next lynch has to hit scum. Why not make it to where scum have to plan far in advance as to what should happen and make proper kills now than wait? Wingback is probably trying to be the "bad scum" and Egg with common sense to try to balance out Wingback.

That being said I would want Wingback or Egg or no lynch. I gotta go to work and won't be beck until really late tonight or tomorrow.

And here's another hint: It doesn't. 1800 was marked with trying to get people to do things. It was manipulation through anger.

Here the only thing I do is freaking explain.

Furthermore let's look

[MathBlade]

VOTE: No lynch

Car issues won't be on until late tonight or early tomorrow. Unless someone has a result there is no reason to lynch today. I am pretty damn sure Wingback + Egg is the team but unless you are willing to bet the game that you know who the scum are no lynching is the proper play as it forces scum into a pigeonhole.

[MathBlade]

Lol that is some serious collusion there to not pin scum lol.

Like you realize that would require me to be town in that world? Yet you are screaming I am scum.

This is so obvious scum. Lynch it tomorrow people's.

[MathBlade]

Major transmission issues just got my baby (car) back. Won't be on til late tonight

[MathBlade]

@Elyse, if Math is so obvscum, why aren't you voting Math?

I'm withholding my vote so I can hammer any wagon that gets to L-1 that's not mine

confirmed herself as scum

VOTE: Elyse

Agreed. Will figure out which of Wingback/Egg tomorrow is scum.

VOTE: Elyse

[MathBlade]

Mathblade's vote on Elyse is scummy and most likely a vote on a partner. I doubt she'd that put that scummy vote on a town player and make people second-guess. Makes much more sense to hammer after BBMolla and I vote if Elyse was town.

In any case, not doing anything until Egg lays out all his reads clearly.

Prod dodge. Need to read up...

Hopefully you have something good after the thorough reading you've done in the past four and a half hours.

Nice flip from me being town to me being scum in .01 seconds.

You were concerned about no lynch scum going back to back which would make me town.
Then you double dip here.
Then you say I am voting my partner yet if you scumread Elyse why aren't you on them?

Then

[MathBlade]

Catching up now. Looks like lots of words.

[MathBlade]

BBMolla has been calling Elyse/Mathblade team since the middle of D3 and never changed. KTS never removed his vote from you on D3 and was the first to vote you today. If not both of them, it's a pretty safe bet at least one of them would. No, the best move for a scumteam if Molla/KTS/Elyse are all town is to no lynch. If we no lynched early on in the day, providing content would have been completely unnecessary.

If Egg saying he'll vote you but asking for a case on Mathblade is townie, then you are stretching to a ridiculous amount to find any small straw to call him town and keep him as an ally. You still haven't tried to read him in the slightest. If he's scum with Math, why wouldn't he just wait for me or BBMolla to vote before hammering? His post reads as null to me.

I find it HILARIOUS that you think that you can just sheep the two obvious townies when you KNOW it is a mislynch to shovel down my direction when barring a scum claim the answer is NO LYNCH today.

VOTE: Unvote

[MathBlade]

Ok, I didn't want to get into town reads and scum pairs but...

Maybe mathblade is the best lynch and here's why.

I think most of us are assuming killthestory is town. Bbmolla maybe too (but can someone remind me why?)

If those things are true, we are left with (from my point of view):
Elyse/Wing in a weird pointless cross bus
Elyse/math
Wing/math

So either math is scum or Elyse and wing decided getting into a pissing match as scum together made more sense than just lynching mathtown.

So if someone can show me why BBMolla is town, you might have my vote for math.

This actually makes a SHIT ton of sense.

Wingback cites paranoia from 1800 and then uses that cross bus strategy here.
Everyone calls it pointless.

I seriously need to reread and look at an Elyse Wingback world because that might be it folks. It also explains some of the weird things going on like "I'm conf scum for rapidly typing when I was at work and having autocorrect fuck up".

Wingback is opportunistic as hell and needs rope.
I am not 100% sure I buy that from Elyse that it was a joke either.

Wingback is doing an excellent job of following that fake anger bus meta.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Wingback

He just scumslipped

He said that me being at L-1 and Egg not hammering means that Egg is town

But if he was actually town he would realize that Egg and I could be scumbuddies

It has to be Wingback

This looks like serious justification of trying to switch to Wingback for town cred.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Wingback

He just scumslipped

He said that me being at L-1 and Egg not hammering means that Egg is town

But if he was actually town he would realize that Egg and I could be scumbuddies

It has to be Wingback

I'm operating with the assumption that Math is scum. I don't think Egg and you are scumbuddies. I never claimed as such.

In fact, I explitly said that you and Egg are one-town/one-scum. It was just a matter of which. Now it's confirmed that it's you.

LOL Why? Because you want me to hang...Because I can catch your scheme with Elyse...That makes a lot of sense. You just wanted any sort of excuse and you are latching as if it is your last chance at winning is me gone so your scheme isn't exposed.

[MathBlade]

You are annoying me with your refusal to read the thread. I'm only going over this for the hundredth time because we're in mylo but pay attention this time.

When I thought it was Egg or Elyse partnered with Mathblade, I needed to figure out who it was and lynch them. Not doing so and just lynching Mathblade would put us in 4P and then in 3P with Egg, Elyse and someone else. Whoever the scum is would then win the game because neither Egg nor Elyse looked like they were re-evaluating their reads on each other.

On the other hand, if we lynched the partner first, then Mathblade would be auto-lynched the next day hence we would win.

It's a question of whether we make that choice now or allow Egg to make it unilaterally in lylo. I didn't trust him to make that call hence I felt that we should make it now.

All of this is irrelevant now though because we know it's not Egg and Mathblade. Egg can only be partnered with Elyse. If Egg is scum, Elyse HAS to be scum. So, Elyse is the only logical choice here. (Ftr, I don't think it's Egg/Elyse, I think it's Mathblade/Elyse).

OR WE COULD DO THE SMART THING AND NO LYNCH.

Seriously. Why are you so insistent on pushing a lynch right now?

From my point of view, everyone scum reading me is making a huge mistake and right now waiting an additional day and having people reset would be beneficial.

VOTE: Unvote

Even if you assume I am scum, forcing someone to do the kill means that you narrow down who my supposed partner could be. (Granted I'm town but for the argument)

We have a no lynch. We are even numbers. There is no claimed vigilante in the game.

The proper move is to fucking no lynch here.

We mislynch we lose.

A lynch on me means we lose.

Wingback plus Elyse for the win.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: NO LYNCH

NO LYNCH NO LYNCH NO LYNCH!!!

[MathBlade]

VOTE: NO LYNCH

NO LYNCH NO LYNCH NO LYNCH!!!

This is him exclaiming scum

@Wingback, Yeah, you do that. You clearly can't comprehend how anyone can possibly have a different opinion then you, so maybe it's for the best that you re-contemplate your options, here.

It really isn't. I am out of words ideas and desperate that we don't lose right now. I know that while being scumread my arguments are always ignored...so I am trying a new approach rather than something everyone will ignore.

[MathBlade]

Gotta go to work lets no lynch.

[MathBlade]

Still think No lynch is the best here guys.

Wingback FYI Egg should not be conftown to Elyse.

There are a multitude of different reasons scum won't hammer there up to but not including:

1) Egg was offline
2) Egg didn't want to risk a quick Unvote and be busted while writing the post.
3) A strategic no vote in the case of it being their buddy so they can make that argument.

Votes matter but the why is equally important.

No lynch people.

[MathBlade]

TLDR Wingback is screaming because he is desperate and he is scum.

Gotta go to work but we should be no lynching.

Wingback wants to end the game now before they run out of places to hide with their scumreads.

[MathBlade]

....Nothing much to respond to. Waiting on KTS to come back if they have any questions.

We should be no lynching. Always no lynch in MyLo when you can.

[MathBlade]

Lol was that like posted out of scum chat?

If you think it's MathBlade+Elyse/Wingback.

Generally people refer to themselves as "me".

The thing we gain is one confirmed townie before tomorrow. There is no reason to vote now.

[MathBlade]

Prod dodge as will be out with friends when 24 hours would hit.

[MathBlade]

Hi!

No lynch because it is Mylo please

[MathBlade]

Hi Expedience, I suggest reading through the thread and posting your thoughts. I'm fairly confident the scumteam is Mathblade and Elyse so I obviously wouldn't want you to listen to Math on her no lynch proposal. I think we should be lynching Mathblade. Given the vote count right above should tell you that it's basically a choice between lynching Math and no-lynching, I suggest taking her advice with a grain of salt.

Their and I think it is you + Elyse but more sure on you.

However I don't want to be wrong and cost us the game. We lose nothing by no lynching here as the next two lynches have to hit scum. Let's do the right thing and no lynch.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Wingback

He just scumslipped

He said that me being at L-1 and Egg not hammering means that Egg is town

But if he was actually town he would realize that Egg and I could be scumbuddies

It has to be Wingback

lololol

Elyse can't believe this!

Wingback is probably town and right (extreme effort = town? he's really enthusiastic about finding the right people not just "lynch this guy " x 999). I didn't read past page 30 (and contracted several forms of cancer) and I'm skimming backwards now.

I want to get to the part about Mathblade being readable though. I'm not sure that is a thing. Mathblade's posts feel strained and I think I'm getting something but it's not much and they have always came across as nonsensical to me in past games.

There is always KTS paranoia but nah.

Extreme effort != town. Extreme effort is extreme effort.

Look at 1800. Was scum that game and longer posts than here. I tunneled the shit out of Karnos and we were going for towncred based on whoever flipped. If anything I have become more apathetic as town. And look here I am town.

[MathBlade]

Oh and Wingback was in that game. Killed them N1. If I am scum why is Wingback still alive? They know my scum meta and know this isn't it. That is why I want to no lynch here.

[MathBlade]

Fuck off. Just got off a 12 hour shift and released a game. That game is moving faster. Omg Math has multiple games they must be scum. You are desperate.

[MathBlade]

That no lynch was ridiculous but I'm glad KTS is dead given the way he was playing. I had a feeling this might happen just because of how unpredictable/loose-cannon he was.

Down to lynch Mathblade or Elyse, whichever works for you two (Expedience and Egg). Very, very confident in that being the team. As an aside, my predecessor (Seraphim) caught the entire scumteam by D3 and hard-defended Hoopla while voting Mathblade. This should be a point against me-Mathblade being a team.

I can keep digging up more and more evidence but given Egg didn't read either the long version or the short version of my case on Elyse, I'm not really sure what else you need right now.

My primary reason for townreading BBMolla (Expedience's slot) is mostly interactions with Mathblade and Mathblade's whiteknighting of him. Before that, I didn't have a solid read although I liked when he pegged the scumteam as Elyse/Blankface because I too had suspicions of those two slots (Post 1285) at that time and thought they fit in well as partners.

As far as Mathblade is concerned, I'm beyond amazed that they weren't lynched the previous day since most of their posting amounted to trolling and trying to conceal who their partner is.

They didn't even care to look town,

they were just creating chaos to obscure who the partner was.

For example, they came into D4 saying that Egg and I were the scumteam and out of nowhere voted Elyse, then kept arguing for a no lynch which was the most neutral position that one can take. I'm super-excited about the KTS kill and the thought that we could actually win this despite our strongest PR getting modkilled in the middle of day one. Very much looking forward to Expedience's thoughts (I hope you used the night phase to catch up on the thread) and if you have any queries about me, I'm happy to answer those as well. I've pretty much laid out all my thoughts so just waiting on you and Egg.

Happy to bet the game on Mathblade's scumflip. If they're a rolestopper, Elyse is screwed. If not which is more likely, I'm bringing my sword and armor for the grand battle with Elyse tomorrow.

VOTE: Mathblade

I am not. The KTS kill you did so no one would listen. People scum read me so it became a matter of KTS getting a chance to reread the thread. KTS died because he has played with me and knows this is not my scum meta. You knew it too before it was convenient for you to switch.

Now you are trying to mislynch me in a package and it pisses me off. And I have no doubt you are willing to bet the game. You tried to get everyone to mislynch me yesterday. A no lynch was indeed the right play there.

[MathBlade]

Okay, so look at Post 1480. All the while, Mathblade was claiming that the team was Egg/Wingback and suddenly without warning, they put a vote on Elyse for something that was clearly a joke. Then they disappear and don't post for the rest of the day. Given that both of you and me weren't voting at the time and KTS was, this gives free reign for a potential Wingback/Egg team to hammer so the complete lack of paranoia doesn't make any sense.

Look at all of Mathblade's posts before that:

I am pretty damn sure Wingback + Egg is the team

"Pretty damn sure" that we're the team but votes Elyse... just like that. Before that in Post 1437, it's the same Wingback/Egg theory. And before that in Post 1418, it's all three of Egg/Wing/KTS that need scrutiny.

My theory is that because Elyse was being wagoned, she asked Mathblade in the scum PT to vote her so as to create a paranoid reflex from the town and get unvotes, possibly lynching Mathblade. Elyse and Mathblade have been pretty set on Mathblade being the first lynch because an Elyse lynch basically loses them the game. Even if you don't buy Elyse-scum, we'll cross that bridge later. Mathblade's vote there makes zero sense as coming from town.

Mathblade's later posting is similarly bad, just making dumb arguments and creating chaos.

Lol was that like posted out of scum chat? If you think it's MathBlade+Elyse/Wingback. Generally people refer to themselves as "me".

This is a completely nonsensical tell in the same line as Elyse claiming I scumslipped by calling Egg town for not hammering her.

Their and I think it is you + Elyse but more sure on you.

This is just as ridiculous as the Hoopla/Elyse team Mathblade was proposing. They are tying whoever they want to Elyse but always having Elyse as a backpocket scumread. Classic scum behavior and Mathblade is certainly blatant enough as scum to do this.

I noticed the only thing you say here is "dumb" arguments. Ohhh my reads are changing....Gasp that is a town tell I am reading the game. You are using colorful words to try to paint me as scum.

Where as I point out a slip and then you just say it is nonsense. And I already posted an argument to that effect. Odd you say it is Elyse.

Oh and FYI I do think Elyse is scum. However since you are actively leading the mislynch train I want you. Elyse I could take in a 1v1 if I had to.

[MathBlade]

I'd suggest reading the posts I linked here as a good starting point:

Look at Mathblade's Post 1391 and Post 1394 and tell me if it's town talking about a scum player or scum bullshitting a townread on someone they know to be town.

And here's my meta-read on Math with relevant links:

The reason I'm confident it's not Mathblade/BBMolla is that Mathblade is incredibly obvious about who their scumpartners are. In Mini 1800, Mathblade killed me N1 because she was afraid that my research into their meta would help me figure out their alignment as well as her partners. Her posts in the scum PT (post 182, post 183, post 188 post 190, post 195, post 199, post 200) all show this.

Mathblade's townread on BBMolla doesn't make sense in the slightest as partner to partner interactions. For one, players who are natural bussers as scum find it a bit difficult to move into strongly townreading their partners the way Mathblade did. Secondly, the way she offered zero good reasons but had a high-confidence read based on nearly nothing fits very well into how Mathblade treats townies when they are town. See Mathblade's ISO in the game I'm talking about (Mini 1800) and Ctrl+F "johnny" who was the day one lynch and see Mathblade's comments on him. They continually defend him with no reasoning, just insisting that he was town. At one point, I felt like Mathblade was scum who knew that Johnny was town. I got the exact same feeling when Mathblade was defending BBMolla.

Obviously, there's going to be the argument of Mathblade manipulating her meta to trick me. The response to that is a) What I said above about players who bus. They tend to have an innate phobia of strongly townreading their partners because of how bad it might make them look, and b) The things I noticed about Mathblade are not behaviors that you can change on a whim.

Math/Elyse not only makes sense with Math's general meta, it fits with the general scum tactic of tying buddies to a townie. Both Mathblade and Elyse said that the other was scum with Hoopla but only wanted to lynch Hoopla. See Math's Post 1363 and all the quotes inside it. She says she doesn't see a world where Hoopla is scum and Elyse is town. Meaning if Hoopla is scum, Elyse HAS to be. By that logic, she should be voting Elyse. She doesn't. She's set on Hoopla.

Perhaps I'm being rather impatient here given the day has only opened a few hours earlier. But most of it is pent-up impatience from the past ten days of trying to get either one of the scum lynched and everyone sitting around on their hands and winding up no-lynching. If it's THAT important for you to hear Mathblade out, wait for them I guess. But to me, it seems very cut and dry. I can understand why it isn't so cut and dry to you if you haven't played with Mathblade before or have personal experience with them. The paranoia of BBMolla is justified if you don't have Mathblade as rock-solid scum given I too wasn't certain about him until recently. But the above links should help explain where I'm coming from.

You have no grounds to cry meta. We have played one game. I was scum that game. You are picking and choosing meta to fit your argument. Did I bus this game? No because I am not scum. In fact Hoopla's tow flip proves I am town by meta.

[MathBlade]

Here's an idea. Why don't you bus your partner?

Also, self-meta =/= ATE. I'd only bring it up under the most dire and critical circumstances because outling the differences between my town and scum play and basically showing people the differences isn't something that anyone would be comfortable with.

Here's an idea why don't you vote yourself or bus your partner?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Wingback

Got cut off sorry.

[MathBlade]

Lol that doesn't prove anything. If you are both scum together which I doubt then you'd be afraid of a quick Unvote.

[MathBlade]

Wing, why didn't you vote Elyse instead of mathblade today?

Two reasons:

1. On the slight chance that Mathblade is a rolestopper or some other role that explains why cmitc1's N1 action on Elyse failed, we catch Elyse and win the game easily.

2. I feel like it's more viable given how reluctant you are to vote Elyse. This is my way of meeting you halfway and lynching someone you can agree with before leaving the hard part for tomorrow. If you want to lynch Elyse though, I'm down for it.

Oh. I feel like pointing out that Elyse and I didn't quickhammer mathblade so if anyone still had doubts there's that.

Yeah, this confirms you as town. You can't be scum with Elyse because you two didn't hammer and you can't be scum with anyone other than Elyse or you'd have hammered Elyse D4.

You scared of 1v1'ing me?

[MathBlade]

Looks like you are trying to pivot to Elyse here.

[MathBlade]

There is every reason to be mad if someone hammers your scumread. Depends on how. Reread what I said there expedience.

I agree with the second to last paragraph but about Wingback. This day feels strategic like Wingback and Elyse have decided to go for me and then if they don't win the game today they want me at end game to tunnel. It feels creepy crawly.

[MathBlade]

Looks like you are trying to pivot to Elyse here.

Called it.

[MathBlade]

At work only have 30 minutes for a break someone tell my why the thread blew up?

[MathBlade]

...Back to work I go since apparently words I say get ignored since this is probably a SvS fight for distancing

[MathBlade]

....Wow this is a wreck.

This is Wingback + Elyse distancing. Plain as day.

[MathBlade]

1) They
2) that requires both people to be online and not scared of a quick Unvote. I have used that tactic before to catch scum.


I admit I am not writing large walls. My large walls in LyLo get looked over. I am working towards being clearer and more concise so people understand.

The one thing I am sure of is the logical inconsistencies in Wingback's play regarding me means that they want to win it now.

[MathBlade]

Hi Math! I could hammer you right now. Am I trolling or am I playing against my wincon or am I an idiot?

Neither.

I disagree with the supposition.

[MathBlade]

Lol nice try to mislynch me. Seriously I am town. You just want Expedience to do the dirty work of hammering.

[MathBlade]

Or you guys are fucking slow playing this. That is a thing.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Elyse

Since y'all won't vote Wingback my top choice guess I go with my second read.

[MathBlade]

@Expedience, you voting Elyse and Mathblade not hammering basically confirms both of them as scum together and wins us the game right away. If you are confident I'm town, I'd suggest going ahead and doing that.

UNVOTE:

.....*looks up*

Looks at Wingback's post.

Looks up.

Repeats argument invalid.

[MathBlade]

Preview edit doesn't work on mobile for me.

[MathBlade]

Well it isn't. You were slow playing and are scum with Elyse:

[MathBlade]

I am already voting Elyse *sigh*

[MathBlade]

I can't hammer who I am physically voting lololol XD

[MathBlade]

Well the second person is wrong and you know that soooooo

[MathBlade]

.....You aren't paranoid you're scum.

[MathBlade]

Gonna be out of town most of the weekend. Will check on this as I can.

[MathBlade]

And to me one of the stupidest because I am town screaming Wingback is scum and Wingback slow played.

[MathBlade]

The fact you won't even consider that ticks me off.

[MathBlade]

Furthermore a user if they knew what was coming down the pipeline for a ban would attempt to prolong a game and stay under detection rather than instantly win and then draw more attention to the slot for the mods as it should be common practice (and if it isn't that would shock me) to review every game at completion. Stalling the game makes sense there.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Wingback's replacement

[MathBlade]

What's a mod kill to a person who knows they would be banned anyway?

[MathBlade]

In fact if anything it would give Wingback a little longer to stall as the moderator would figure out what to do. Or to create this WiFoM here and win it.

Or Wingback was afraid of a quick Unvote.

There are a lot of reasons. The one thing I know of is that I am town and if you are scum then you have played a brilliant end game.

[MathBlade]

It is all up to Egg here. I don't really have anything I can say here. I leave the game in your hands Egg. I know I am town and Nacho replaced into the scum slot.

[MathBlade]

GG scum wins

[MathBlade]

Guess you will have to wait for the flip.

[MathBlade]

Nope scum wins.

[MathBlade]

Is this right....maybe?

Does MathBlade like giving that people tension as either alignment?

Yes....Yes they do.

[MathBlade]

Rats...C'mon you couldn't let me troll a smidge?

[MathBlade]

Okay yeah I am scum. Apparently I didn't realize site meta hated trolling like that. Sorry to anyone who was offended.

Yeah I was scum GG town wins.

[MathBlade]

Honestly preview edit didn't work on that post and had work.

The fact you guys were saying scum weren't playing to win con when I had RL kinda pissed me off as I assumed other people had lives and didn't check VCs and just played. Guess that burned me.

Sorry Elyse. Elyse was awesome I just fucked up trying to rage post which usually people like :/

[MathBlade]

Like Elyse was incredible