Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[RachMarie]

Ya know I still love ya Inno even if I am scum reading you. My only other option is Fox, and I just don't think she would have the balls to hammer her scum bud when she could have just lurked a bit longer and let the timer end the day with a NL

[RachMarie]

I just played the town jk in a crazy game (homestuck) Town kept trying to lynch me even though I was confirmed by several players as having jailed them and them getting my speeches (which was how I jailed them actually). We also had a loverizer double doc dude (ssk), a watcher (Kling) and basically between the 3 of us we managed to keep the scum team in knots and they barely got any kills at all.

Point is for this game on several occasions, I jailed someone and pushed them as scum since there had not been a night kill, and they all flipped TOWN, other than ONE Mirhawk, who I had other stuff on, plus of course Bro I knew was scum without jailing him.

So JK is not the same as cop, especially when you have more than ONE scum left.

[innocentvillager]

I don't think hammering Jaack gives her that many town points. Imagine if she hadn't hammered. Either I would hammer and get the towncred, or no one would hammer and she would look bad for not hammering when we decide to lynch Jaack the next day. I think the best move for scum!Foxbird is to hammer Jaack in that situation.

In fact

VOTE: Foxbird

I might be persuaded to vote rach but I hunk Foxbird is a better lynch rn

I don't think an NL would have been good for a Fox/Jaack team. Fox needs towncred at this point to survive, and she has a lot to gain by hammering her partner.

[innocentvillager]

The reason it's not super scummy that I didn't hammer is because I've been pushing for NL the whole day. Foxbird has been all for lynching Jaack (supposedly, even if she didn't really vote him late game), so she kind of has to otherwise she looks real bad.

[RachMarie]

right and I have done the procedural thing to look like a good town before as scum and actually the general practice in a MYLO situation IS to mislynch.

I would have supported it to, except it was clear my two top town reads wanted to push for a lynch so I went with them.

I have been trying to build a town coalition but meh troll still thinks I am scum no matter what I say.

[innocentvillager]

Okay so will you drop the "fox can't be scum because she hammered her partner" case given what I just said..?

[RachMarie]

I will think on it

I do know I will not support a lynch of either Troll or Nacho.

[Foxbird]

Fyi, me being mellow/soft-spoken and a hesitant voter is a personality thing and gets me scumread a lot. I'm working on it.

As for the vague reads in my last post: Zorblag had asked me to comment on interactions without accounting for scumminess, so that's why it's phrased that way.

I still think inno is scum and I won't lynch in Zorblag/Nacho.

[innocentvillager]

Fyi, me being mellow/soft-spoken and a hesitant voter is a personality thing and gets me scumread a lot. I'm working on it.

As for the vague reads in my last post: Zorblag had asked me to comment on interactions without accounting for scumminess, so that's why it's phrased that way.

I still think inno is scum and I won't lynch in Zorblag/Nacho.

Okay, but I am still really not a fan of that post because now it just looks like you're not interested in the interactions between YOURSELF, you're only interested in responding to Zorblag's question. If you were town, imo you would respond to that, be interested in the conclusion you derived from typing out your answer to Zorb's question, and then clarify your reads/further narrow down who is scum between me/Rach/whoever else. I don't see your desire to figure out the last scum here, only really that you're trying to answer Zorblag's questions whenever he asks you to give input.

My hypothesis is that you've basically given up at this point, pissed your pants after realizing that Nacho didn't die, and realized you'll surely get caught in at least one of the 2 MLs we now have.

[innocentvillager]

like you're not interested in the interactions

between

YOURSELF,

ebwop

[Foxbird]

I answer questions if they're asked and I pointed out conclusions from the interactions I found interesting. But you're right, I should've summarized everything at the end. The rest is just me being a bad scumhunter.

Zorblag, I still don't understand how two people pushing you at the same time makes them unlikely to be a scum team. If anything, couldn't they have coordinated it the night before? I can't find the exact posts where you said this, but I recall you saying something along those lines. I've seen scum pull off crazier gambits.

[Foxbird]

Quick heads-up: I'll be gone for most of tomorrow because I have an exam to write. Should be back in the evening.

[Zorblag]

So because a scum player showed he was trying to buddy me you think I am scum? Seriously for real

What about my interactions with HIM, I went from town reading him to scum reading him and helped get him lynched. Which both Nacho and I have told you is not at all typical of my town play.

I have struggled in this game I will admit, much of it has been low activity.

Who was off the wagon on Jaack?

Inno was.


Who completely fooled me as scum because I am so used to him being town"

Inno did

So this is what it takes to get a more reasonable level of interaction. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

First off, Jaack wasn't buddying you. He spent the game saying that you were scummy but not voting for you. It's distancing if you want to call it anything, but that's what scum does to a partner, not to town.

But, OK, let's look at your interactions with Jaack. That's fair. Let's look over the course of the entire game though. You spent pretty much up to the last page of day three giving him town reads. You cast votes on both our mislynches, Foxbird and innocentvillager throughout the game up till then. That's everyone except for Nachomamma8 and myself (both of whom you've given more or less free rides two which you didn't claim you were doing for Jaack,) and fits the scum game that you claim to play pretty much to a tee (you say town in your post, but that's clearly a typo and I'm not going to hold it against you.) Even day three Jaack was the lowest lynch choice n your list of players that you would consider for most of the day; I tried to get a reason for why, but that's tricky. When you finally moved to make the vote on Jaack it was pretty clear that both Nachomamma8 and I were heading that direction which means that his lynch was probably something that was certain to happen. It was also well after you'd gone out of your way to establish the claim that you never bus. That was technically a bus at the end, but as innocentvillager has pointed out, getting on the wagon for the inevitable lynch is just baseline competent scum play.

Overall your interactions with Jaack have virtually no pressure on the spot and only vote him when he's going to be the lynch anyhow. You drive home the idea that you don't bus with your comment that Foxbird must be bolder than you to have hammered if she's scum, but really, there's no reason for scum to be off that wagon at the end of the day.

As for innocentvillager being off the wagon, it's not like you thought that he was fooling you at the time as you went into the day voting him when it wasn't even clear that we should be voting. Pushing for a no lynch there rather than either being on the wagon hammering a partner or pushing an alternative wagon that might get someone lynched (and Foxbird should have been an option for him,) was a worse choice for him to make if he's scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

...

And the fact that ecaine was voting for me because of lack of activity? That is your case? Seriously. I was V/LA and I understimated the time of the V/LA by a couple of days we actually discussed that because I was scum reading another player in another newbie game that just ended.

...

Why do you think a Jaack/Inno team is not possible? Seriously.

No, ecane was voting you at the start of day two after saying that she found you the scummiest player in the game, had used a jailkeep action, and had seen a no kill. Why she thought you were scummy based on her reads doesn't even matter here. She had access to the information of why she jailkept which none of the rest of us did. She decided that you were the one worth voting with her first post of day 2. That's an indication that she could easily have jailkept you. If there was any reason to think that you might have been the target of a scum nightkill then it would be much less strong, but you say yourself that there isn't (I agree.)

Is a Jaack/innocentvillager scum team impossible? No, it's not. Nachomamma8 is as close to impossible scum as we can get, but Jaack/innocentvillager pairing is merely unlikely. I went over some reasons without looking too closely, but the connections they were forming weren't what we should expect from scum in my opinion. Taken as a whole it's not good play for a scum team and innocentvillager should be a better player than that.

Similarly, am I certain that you're scum? No. I spent a whole post on why there are reasons that you shouldn't be. But there are enough reasons that you should that I'd prefer to lynch you now while we have the option to move on to another day and not lose the game if I'm wrong.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I will say this If I were scum you would have been shot for sure. Seriously why would I even want to keep the player who brought life back to the game? You really think I am that bad at this game?

What I said, is that either alignment I tend to get lynched on D1 or D2 about 75% of the time. That is the part of the play I am working on by hydraing with players like Jiffy now and Nacho in the future.

I tend to be more of a logic and PoV person looking at everyone in the game big picture than a gut reader, so when people are not active, it makes it really difficult for me to peg everyone. Which is why I have struggled so much in this game. It is why I wanted Nacho's insight he is far better at pegging people quickly.

Everyone who might be scum this game should have shot me last night. I've already said that the fact you should have shot me is the biggest problem that I have with you as potential scum. Having said that who should Foxbird have shot? She's got her scum list down to you and innocentvillager and for all she knows Nachomamma8 was jailkept night 1 if she took a shot at him. Who would innocentvillager have shot? I wasn't defending him at the time and he's saying that he wants to lynch Foxbird but would consider you and also should have the same concerns about Nachomamma8 being jailkept night 1. We know that Nachomamma8 isn't scum (and the lack of kill here just prolongs the game which there'd be no reason for him to do.)

Even if we hypothetically look at me as a possibility

and

ignore the fact that I could have won yesterday by getting innocentvillager lynched and then killing anyone other than Nachomamma8, I'm so much better off killing any of the rest of you than I am either no killing or risking a Nachomamma8 kill that it would be ridiculous for me to attempt it.

No one as scum in this game should have made that night choice. Someone did.

You've gone on at length on how you get killed regularly (which is bad play.) Should I assume that someone else in the game is going to make the worse play when being bad at aspects of the game is a core element of your fronted game.

Or, I could go with the innocentvillager approach to this and say that you're claiming that you definitely would have done something as scum, so we shouldn't trust that due to self meta.

In any case, if there's a reason that you shouldn't be scum, that's it. But that's the same as the reason for every other player in the game so it doesn't help you in relation to anything. I will point out here that on the plus side if I get my way and you get lynched, town hasn't lost yet. We still have another chance at this without your relation to Jaack pointing so heavily towards a scum team lurking in the back of everything.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@RachMarie, so here are some reasons just right off the top of my head that we might doubt that innocentvillager is scum with Jaack:

• The two of them at the start of day 2 were the only ones on my wagon and they were both pushing strongly. I seldom see scum coordinate an attack like that when there's no town to back them up.
  
• Jaack at the end of day 3 was pushing for the town to pick between innocentvillager and I. If they're scum together he's better off pushing for a choice between two town as that should win the game. This ties into point 1 in that both of them based on their positions could easily have gotten on Foxbird push; they're already tied together with pushes so there's no reason to back off it now.
  
• innocentvillager had to think that sticking by a no lynch which wasn't going to happen was a better move than trying to push a Foxbird lynch which there were clearly people sympathetic towards. He has to think so to the point where standing out with an opinion (the no lynch) was more valuable than working and blending in with the town to get a lynch that would win the game.

Let me know what you think of those.

Also, on an unrelated topic, how often are you a NK target Night 1? What do you think the chances of it happening this game might have been (assume that the jailkeep action protected you for whatever reason and just assess your chance of being a target.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

OK I have seen scum do this not push their partner at all. Or just add them into the list along with someone else they hope town will lynch instead. Your whole case is based on what one newbie is doing same with your case on ME, yet Inno is a far more experienced player, and so am I , even though I do have some weak areas. Yet you do not look at the interactions WE have with Jaack, instead you are basing your entire case on inno being town and me being scum on what Jaack said and did. That is a seriously faulty premise.

BTW its that premise that often gets scum Nacho to float to victory after bussing his scum budz on D1. Everyone is so focused on how Nacho behaved and giving him kudos and town cred, they do not pay attention to how the scum bud acted toward Nacho.

You're seriously misrepresenting my case there. I'm not actually assuming that innocentvillager is town going into this at all. I'm looking for expected scum behavior from him and I'm just not seeing it here. It's not just that he's not pushing Jaack as a partner; he actually does have Jaack as the most likely partner with Foxbird. It's that he chooses to sit back and go with the no lynch when there's a win to be had. Letting a partner die in a way that doesn't strengthen his position when he knows that both you and Foxbird are likely to be looking at him is not a good move for an experienced player. Add that to the push that he made with Jaack against me when no one else was participating (and by then the rest of the game was calling me town for the activity levels,) and you've got even more improbably scum play.

I'll say again, could innocentvillager and Jaack be the scum team? Yes, it's possible. There's nothing role-wise which rules it out. But their interactions really didn't play out that way. I think you mentioned earlier that they had night one to plan how they were going to play day 2, but for the concerted attack on me to be planned they would have had to have innocnentvillager ready to generate a reason to suspect me (he jumped on play that I made which was absolutely non-sense to find scummy, but which I'm willing to believe he did,) and have had that as a contingency for lack of a kill going through.

And although it's neither here nor there for the rest of your post, I'm well aware of bussing partners giving you credit as scum in a game. I use that as well as anyone. I'm never going to go out of my way to protect a scum buddy unless there's an obvious reason to do so.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, am I going to have to yell at you some more? Because if you think there's any chance that I'd put myself in a position where I have to deal with an extra day in this game as scum then I probably am. Someone made an unforced error (or intentional decision) as scum that caused this game to go an extra day if we don't get the lynch right this time around, but I can guarantee that that someone wouldn't be me with this game state and the current expressed suspicion. And that doesn't even take into account how unlikely a partner I should be for Jaack.

On the other hand, you have two of the five players listing you as their top suspect and probably willing to vote you fairly soon. I'd rather not see you mislynched if you're town. I think that you should point out any interactions with Jaack that you think should drive home how unlikely a partner you are. I'll also ask again as you ignored it, now that Jaack is confirmed scum, have you taken a look at his interactions with Foxbird and found them to be consistent with scum team play?

Dude, why are you defending yourself here? I never even attacked you! I've been saying you're town for the past like 2 RL weeks or so! There is literally no incentive for you to try this hard when you are so widely townread and going to win the game if you're scum here.

Just for funsies, how would you have handled the NK last night if you were scum? I could definitely see scum!Zorblag going for a Nacho kill. It doesn't make sense for you to kill me, Rach, or Fox, since we are all strong lynch candidates. If you had tried to kill Nacho the first night, I can see you thinking that Nacho was the optimal kill since he would be dead. I'm not saying you're scum here, in fact I clearly think the opposite, but I don't think your self-defense checks out anyway if we are to take it seriously.

I am honestly against self-defense in terms of partners, since there's not much I can say about me/Jaack being implausible. I've had Jaack at town for most of the early game, but for shitty/generic reasons like mild proactivity, and me agreeing with his thought processes. I never actually ended up voting him, so there's that. Points that you brought up in my defense are fairly valid, the strongest of them being that I pushed for an NL yesterday rather than a lynch on Foxbird (if I am THAT close to autowin, why the hell wouldn't I push for it??).

Foxbird is a strong candidate mostly by PoE, again; her ISO just looks super null, relatively neutral/active lurky like, and overall feels survivalistic. You're been very transparently town lately, Nacho is confirmed, and Rach has been townposting a lot today at least. I honestly don't think scum!Rach gets this passionate and manipulative when she's about to be lynched. It sound stupid, but I can almost really genuinely feel her suspicion and desire to get me lynched, and the frustration that she's being associated with Jaack. Neither of which are alignment-conclusive, of course, but definitely makes me think she is much more likely town than not.

Because I've put up with too much fucking bullshit from you prior to this and the obvious reason that you'd want to push the idea that I was the jailkeep option night one was that I would potentially have tried to kill Nachomamma8 last night. Which is stupid. Like I already told RachMarie, were I scum I would have won yesterday by getting you lynched. But even if I didn't I have easy paths to victory by nightkilling anyone other than risking trying to kill Nachomamma8 when I know I might have been jailkept. There's no reason for me to prolong this game. This painful painful game.

How do you think RachMarie is townposting today? Why would she not post like this as scum? Or rather, why would she start posting like this as town? If she's town then we don't lose the game with her lynch. If she's scum she needs to stay alive. She's made a more lively defense of herself than we've seen all game now that one scum is down which doesn't match the more fatalistic (though still appealing to Nachomamma8 as someone who would avenge the mislynch) approach that we saw earlier in the game.

I actually agree that Foxbird is the next best scum candidate given the relatively likelihood of the two of you as Jaack partners, but RachMarie still has more going for her.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Okay, with regards to the jailkeep, if scum!Rach was jailed, nothing makes sense. There is no scenario where Rach would carry out the kill and not Jaack, since Jaack was much more townread than Rach. And in either of the two roleblocker setups, it doesn't make sense for the less townread person to kill. In Cop/Doc, obviously it doesn't matter there. However, in JK/BP, Rach was much more likely to be jailed than Jaack, so the maximum chance of getting the kill through is to have Jaack carry out the kill.

So Rach gets jailed to no effect, then the only way no kill could have happened is if Rach killed (doesn't make sense, very unlikely), NK (even less likely), or Jaack hit Nacho. If Jaack hit Nacho successfully D1, why was there no death today? That's not possible, unless scum is seriously playing very suboptimally.

That is why I can't buy a Rach jailkeep N1, and Rach being scum. But actually, if town!Rach was jailed N1, then that means Nacho was hit N1, which, for the same reason, doesn't make sense here. So I don't think Rach getting jailed makes sense.

Ecane didn't jail Jaack either I doubt, because she never really expressed any suspicion on that slot iirc.

I think what almost certainly went down, is that ecane jailed either Nacho, or the scum who tried to kill Nacho. If ecane jailed scum who tried to kill someone else, they'd know they were jailed, and probably wouldn't go for a Nacho kill since town would have two MLs. I think if we can figure out who ecane jailed (if it's not Nacho), then we have our second scum, barring the unlikely scenario where she jailed Jaack.

I need to look at this and I think more insight on mechanics like this are useful.

If ecane jailkept Jaack it was probably protective; she had a town read at the end of the day from what I can tell. I do also agree that night actions are among the strongest reasons not to buy RachMarie as scum, but really, like I've already said, no scum should have gone with the night actions that we've seen.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I answer questions if they're asked and I pointed out conclusions from the interactions I found interesting. But you're right, I should've summarized everything at the end. The rest is just me being a bad scumhunter.

Zorblag, I still don't understand how two people pushing you at the same time makes them unlikely to be a scum team. If anything, couldn't they have coordinated it the night before? I can't find the exact posts where you said this, but I recall you saying something along those lines. I've seen scum pull off crazier gambits.

Ah, this is where the coordination question came up.

The answer to the overall question is that it's not just being the only two attacking me together that makes innocentvillager and Jaack a poor scum team. It's the overall play between the two. If they're scum they teamed up to try to get me lynched but didn't do the same later in the game for probably you in Day 3. Further, innocentvillager sitting on the sidelines while Jaack got lynched just draws attention to himself when he's already got plenty, so he shouldn't be doing that as scum, but rather should either be in on his lynch or doing something else. It's not coherent play and the point of the scum team is that they have the chance to play coherently.

There's also, as I said, the fact that there's reason not to expect scum to have planned out that attack given the lack of night kill. The nature of innocentvillager's attack (an attack of opportunity given my rejection of Jaack's attack on me,) feels much more like an individual spontaneously deciding to make that attack. Scum doing that to support a partner with no one else in the mix isn't a likely play there.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

I actually had more TIME to post I mentioned that

between the work stuffs and the fact I found myself in 3 role madness larges of which the two that finished I had to really push to help town win is part of why I have been not as active as I should have been this game

So yeah I am not in favor of lynching me then lynching inno tomorrow because what if I am wrong about Inno and it is Fox? Then she wins by default because you pushed through a lynch on another townie. I would rather see us focus more on figuring out which one it is either inno or fox.

Here is the other newbie game that just ended recently with the same MOD mind you, You will see same issue being accused of lurking, tunneling on the wrong player but then it got corrected. We finally DID land the other player.

Newbie 1727
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=67471

[Zorblag]

@RachMarie, where an I accusing you of lurking? That's not my case at all. Or tunneling on the wrong player? I'm saying that you looked for scum everywhere except Jaack until it was clear he was a likely lynch.

I've read all the recently completed newbie games including that one. None of the issues that I'm raising to day are addressed by that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

I suppose next you are going to float the idea that I did not send in a shot last night because I bloody well told you I did not pay this game any attention at all in the night phase I had no reason to since I was VT and had other pressing games on my mind

I try not to replace out of games especially this late but I am very close to asking for replacement because of the level of absurdity here troll.

Yes I was town reading Jaack and yes I was bloody well wrong about it. I also voted him. I did that because the town block I was trying to put together supported both having a lynch and that he be the lynch. WHY ON EARTH WOULD I TRY TO MAKE A TOWN BLOCK OUT OF YOU AND NACHO AND I if I were scum, I would be trying to stir up conflict not bring town together.

[RachMarie]

you just talked about my level of activity and how it is only changed today because of my being lynched

no

It changed because today I have more time to devote to THIS game.

[RachMarie]

err about to be lynched sorry

[Zorblag]

@RachMarie, no, I wouldn't float lack of attention as the reason for a no kill. If there was a no kill it should have been an intentional by someone. It's more likely someone thought they could kill Nachomamma8 despite the risks, but if not then I could be playing right into their plans. Of course, they'd have been better off submitting another kill on either Foxbird or innocentvillager then to avoid having to get two mislynches in a row.

And if you think that my posts are simply absurd then I'll apologize to some degree. It's not going to stop me from pushing my strongest reads, but I don't mean to offend you while I do it.

As to why you would try to make a town block including you and at least one player who is sure you're town? Do I really need to answer that? If you're scum and can coast a Nachomamma8 town read to victory then you've got a fine victory. A town block that includes scum loses for the town in the long run.

And if you mean the bit where I said that making a case on you would finally bring you into the game, that seems to be true, but isn't part of the case that I'm making against you. If you're referencing the intensity of the defense, well you were here enough to make comments on getting lynched before. Do you deny that you appear to care more now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh