Newbie 1741 - Game Over

[Papa Zito]

Self preservation?

what?

[Titus]

Self preservation?

what?

Seriously, did you not put together that newbie scum might suggest no lynch because they fear getting lynched?

[shaddowez]

Dumb question here: What do you mean by "pre-flip associatives"? If algebra is scum and Titus flips town, what associatives would algebra use for mislynches later? Certainly not associatives of Titus, whom he'd be pretending to look for?

There's 3 possible scenarios:

1) algebra is town, in which case Titus' alignment doesn't matter: Without

knowing

that Titus is scum, this is just a waste of time. If algrebra decides to purely scum hunt by associatives, rather than actually trying to determine who may be scummy by themselves, if Titus flips scum that was useless. If Titus is scum that may be slightly fruitful, but he's already said what he's doing, which makes it useless anyway. That's like performing a reaction test, and telling everyone it's a reaction test.

2) algebra is scum, Titus is town: Here it's not associatives that are being set up, but rather the lack of. This makes it possible to paint interactions in whatever way works for them. Basically, it allows scum to either say that other scum are townie because of how they interacted with a town wagon, or that townies are scummy because of how the interacted with a town wagon.

3) algebra is scum, Titus is scum: Similar to the previous point, but this time it is trying to paint associatives. If Titus flips scum, and algebra knows she is going to, they can line up mislynches by forming associatives between players already.

Clearer?

You go from describing Titus's vote on nn as "possibly random," to stating that titus has a scumread on nn. Do you think the nn vote was random or not?

I agree with the votes that algebra is getting, but for now VOTE: shaddowez

Since I was catching up, I was responding to things while also reading the thread. I read 35 in between my two responses. Since she hasn't made it clear in her first post I had read it as possibly random then, and then since it didn't directly relate to the second quote, I didn't explicitly state that. I should have, though.

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

Do you honestly believe that this is completely an RVS wagon? Why do you think bringing Titus to L-2 is a good idea?

It did what it was meant to do.

That doesn't really answer the question, especially the first part.

Newbie scum that wanted a no lynch.

That's not mental gymnastics but calling out self preservation when I see it.

I could see this if there was pressure on the slot, but 1 RVS vote? I think panic and pushing another lynch would be more self preservation than pushing a no lynch. Pushing anything outside the norm tends to attract attention, which scum most definitely don't want.

[Papa Zito]

Self preservation?

what?

Seriously, did you not put together that newbie scum might suggest no lynch because they fear getting lynched?

Shaddowez already answered this but no, it never crossed my mind that someone would fear getting lynched on page freaking 2.

Can you explain how "fear of getting lynched" is specific to newb scum only and not something that'd afflict newb town?

[Titus]

Self preservation?

what?

Seriously, did you not put together that newbie scum might suggest no lynch because they fear getting lynched?

Shaddowez already answered this but no, it never crossed my mind that someone would fear getting lynched on page freaking 2.

Can you explain how "fear of getting lynched" is specific to newb scum only and not something that'd afflict newb town?

It could be either. I voted to start the sorting process. I wanted to figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated. The best way to do that was to increase the pressure he feels.

[Papa Zito]

It could be either. I voted to start the sorting process. I wanted to figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated. The best way to do that was to increase the pressure he feels.

Can you show me where you attempted to do this sorting?

[Morning Tweet]

I don't really believe that the vote was random. I voted for titus because I interpreted her post as first acknowledging that nn30's question about new lynches was just a newbie question, and then voting for nn30 as if nn30 legitimately wanted to push a no lynch. It just struck me as odd.

But nn30 did want a no lynch. Titus quoted this post, to answer this question:

What's the math on that?

However, I believe her vote was more about this post:

I'll start us off with some strategy talk...

Since there are 7 town and 2 mafia it's unlikely that a day one lynch will be useful (since we're unlikely to land on a mafia). I'm in favor of a day one no lynch.

Which surely could be seen as 'legitimately pushing a no lynch'.

@Morning Tweet, why didn't you engage algebra in 52 instead of just quoting shaddowez's posts and basically repeating what's already been said?

Shadowez had a question for me, and I had my own (although rather stupid) question for Shadow about his case on algebra. What you interpreted as "repeating whats already been said" was probably this:

48 is terrible. It's highly unlikely that a wagon started in RVS less than a day ago is going to go through, and you're speaking as if Titus is confscum. Forming pre-flip associatives is just a way to line up mislynches/figure out ways to defend votes on a town wagon.

It is odd how algebra speaks that way

when he isn't even the one who started the Titus wagon, just merely joined without reason

then asks us to not hammer yet so we can find possible scumbuddies.

I probably wasn't very clear, but what I meant was algebra (compared to Papa Zito) hasn't really spoken much about why Titus is scum, yet he's the one saying 48.

[Titus]

It could be either. I voted to start the sorting process. I wanted to figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated. The best way to do that was to increase the pressure he feels.

Can you show me where you attempted to do this sorting?

15 The very post you're objecting too.

The vote increases the pressure. I'm wanting to get at WHY he doesn't want a no lynch.

[Papa Zito]

No no no no no.

You stated the purpose of that vote was to "start the sorting process." The sorting process would "figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated."

I'm asking you to show us the sorting process you're referring to.

[shaddowez]

The vote increases the pressure. I'm wanting to get at WHY he doesn't want a no lynch.

You never ask any questions in 15, nor even allude to the fact that you're trying to figure out where he's coming from. Do you really think that a second vote is "pressure" to try and sort somebody? That sounds like a reach, even for you Titus

[Dunhallym]

Hi in there. I'm a bit late to the party so just to give a short introduction: it's my first game here but I used to play quite a lot of mafia on another website, so I'm a bit rusty but not a complete noob. However, our mafia slang was quite different from here and I'm not a native speaker so I appreciate it if you can develop acronyms when used for the first time and other specific terms, e.g the SvS I saw earlier (Scum vs Scum I guess?).
Now reading the thread, more to come.

[Papa Zito]

There's a link to the acronyms we use in the 2nd post, Dunhallym.

[Titus]

Asking questions isn't the right tool to use.

The vote increases pressure. The guy fears being lynched. A reasonless vote increases the fear level. It's not about asking questions.

The vote is the start of the sorting process.

[algebra]

Now Titus explaining it removed all pressure lol

[Titus]

Like I had a choice. I'm not even voting for the guy anymore. I'm voting for you.

You seem fully capable of following along, but not capable of actually answering questions put to you.

[shaddowez]

Hi in there. I'm a bit late to the party so just to give a short introduction: it's my first game here but I used to play quite a lot of mafia on another website, so I'm a bit rusty but not a complete noob. However, our mafia slang was quite different from here and I'm not a native speaker so I appreciate it if you can develop acronyms when used for the first time and other specific terms, e.g the SvS I saw earlier (Scum vs Scum I guess?).
Now reading the thread, more to come.

Hey Dun, and welcome! Yes, SvS is Scum vs Scum. If you have any questions about the game mechanics and the like, you can check out my post 47, or ask and I'll answer as best I can!

[Dunhallym]

OK, now I’ve caught up few things I want to comment on:

@nn
First, could you please use an avatar, makes people stand out more easily. thanks.
Second

Hey everyone!
I've played some mafia in real life but never online. It'll be interesting to play without the help of body language tells - let's see how this goes!
I'll start us off with some strategy talk...
Since there are 7 town and 2 mafia it's unlikely that a day one lynch will be useful (since we're unlikely to land on a mafia). I'm in favor of a day one no lynch.

You said you played in RL, is no lynch something you would go for in RL mafia as well?
As has already been said, the main reason no lynch is a bad idea is that by deciding early to go for "no lynch” you gain no information. As for the “math” I’ll try to explain it in another post.

@ecane

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

You mentioned later that you wanted to achieve something with that. I agree that putting pressure on someone can teach information but everything in this post is made to tell “hey, this is a joke vote”, strongly lessening its effect IMO. Were you trying to achieve something else here?

@Morning Tweet

I do not really agree with Titus that a scum newbie would propose a no lynch, but we just started RVS, so it didn't come off as (at least to me) a "nn30 is 100% scum for saying this", as much as "there's possible newbscum motivation behind this suggestion, here's a good vote."

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

Town.

Is the L-2 vote without a direct reason too bold a move for scum?

I don’t like much this post. Gives me the feeling that Morning Tweet is keeping options open without committing which is a huge scumtell in my book.
In fact, now that I read further (i-e #81) it seems that Morning Tweet really is defending Titus. Why?

@Papa Zito

I have no idea what you're doing

QUESTION FOR THE AUDIENCE

I have accused Titus of being The Accursed Scum.
I have pushed for more votes on Titus.
I haven't really revealed

why

I feel so strongly about this.
Titus also hasn't really asked despite not knowing wtf I'm doing.

What do YOU think about this state of affairs?

Reading your original posts, I didn’t get the feeling your vote on Titus was that strong and I also don’t take “vote xx” as a huge push.

@algebra

A game without Titus is a better game
VOTE: Titus

Titus is at L-1 so we don't want to lynch the slot right now because we should get a good feel on the other players and possibly get some assosicative reads.

I believe it’s already been asked but I don’t think I saw the answer: did you really feel that strong about Titus and if so why?

@both algebra and Papa Zito: is there also some meta involved in your feel about Titus and if yes, can you enlighten us?

@shaddowez

Ooooh thanks.

VOTE: Titus

no lynches are bad, but so is voting for someone for legitimately asking a question. you could've at least waited for an answer y'know?

This is less than 20 posts into the game, and therefore should still be considered RVS, unless somebody has a good reason for a legit vote. Why do you think Titus voting nn as a possible random vote is any scummier than you voting Titus for said vote?

Arona already noted it but why do you mention Titus’ vote was “possible random” when it’s pretty clear (at least to me) that their vote was not random and nothing in arona’s post suggests they thought otherwise?
I’m not quoting the rest of the post as it’s too long but I didn’t like much the tone of some questions. Feels a bit fake to me. Weird as we seem to have somewhat similar styles.

@algebra

Looks like you're trying to get the easy wagon because you know you can in a newbie game

Why do you say you’re an “easy wagon”?

I see I didn’t comment much on the Titus issue. I disagree with their reason to vote for nn as for me their question could go both ways but I don’t see Titus’s vote as necessarily evil. Waiting to hear more on the “meta” as both main attackers are SE.
I began wanting to vote Morning Tweet but the fact they’re really defending Titus makes me more curious than suspicious at the moment. Algebra is a valid choice and I’d be willing but they’re already getting some heat. I’ll add some on Shaddowez: arona raises a valid issue IMO and as mentioned I didn’t like much their post. VOTE: Shaddowez
Sorry I didn’t bother checking the pronouns for people yet and I’ll sure look at the acronyms list.
And I'm used to being called Dunny or Dun if you prefer.

[shaddowez]

Arona already noted it but why do you mention Titus’ vote was “possible random” when it’s pretty clear (at least to me) that their vote was not random and nothing in arona’s post suggests they thought otherwise?

Since I was catching up, I was responding to things while also reading the thread. I read 35 in between my two responses. Since she hasn't made it clear in her first post I had read it as possibly random then, and then since it didn't directly relate to the second quote, I didn't explicitly state that. I should have, though.

[Dunhallym]

About the "math" of not lynching.
On my original forum we had what we called the "odd/even" rule.
Starting with 9 people and assuming that 1) we don't lynch scum and 2) scum kill every night we lose on day 4 (7 left on D2, 5 on D3 and 3 on D4, 2 of which are scum)
If we don't lynch on day 1, and with the same assumptions we also lose on day 4 (4 people left, 2 of which are scum) but we have one less occasion to lynch scum. The reasoning is valid no matter the initial number: if you don't lynch day 1 with an odd number of players, you lose a lynch so it's bad. It's less bad if you start with an even number but even then other reasons (i-e gathering of informations) still apply.

[Dunhallym]

Arona already noted it but why do you mention Titus’ vote was “possible random” when it’s pretty clear (at least to me) that their vote was not random and nothing in arona’s post suggests they thought otherwise?

Since I was catching up, I was responding to things while also reading the thread. I read 35 in between my two responses. Since she hasn't made it clear in her first post I had read it as possibly random then, and then since it didn't directly relate to the second quote, I didn't explicitly state that. I should have, though.

That's not exactly my question. You answered about the contradiction in your post, but my question was about your original take on Titu's vote. As I said it was pretty clear it was not random so what made you mention it as "possible random"?

[Papa Zito]

Meta is dumb. Don't do meta kids it only leads you to bad places.

Oh man thank you for reminding me about this subject whew.

[shaddowez]

That's not exactly my question. You answered about the contradiction in your post, but my question was about your original take on Titu's vote. As I said it was pretty clear it was not random so what made you mention it as "possible random"?

How is it clear it wasn't random? It was Titus' first vote of the game, which was the 11th(ish) post of the game, traditionally during RVS (Random Voting Stage). In her own post she says:

We randomly vote until we get a feel for who is scum

I'm not saying it was random as in "I'm going to use random.org and vote for whoever it tells me to"

[nn30]

@Dunhallym Do you like my sweet new avatar? Roll a d20 to see how you react to it.

@Dunhallym - In all seriousness, a no lynch day one is something I would go for and have gone for in real life. In RL, you can play a 9 person game in 20 minutes. There's not nearly as much time on day one to gather information on people. In this case, the day one lynch is actually just random (or you just point it at the trickiest person in the game regardless of the tells you have on them). Odds are you kill a townie by accident this way and get no real good information out of it.

But, I'm quickly realizing that the way games go online are significantly different than the way they go in real life.

There's been more conversation on day one of this game than I've ever seen in real life. I see now that the information which can be gathered is useful. Plus, with the nature of a running forum, you can hold people accountable for what they said and who they associated with on day one.

I don't know if I'm being paranoid here or what, but I could potentially see this Titus/Papa Zito business being SvS.
Meh, probably just paranoid really. That's not the talk for now anyways... Everyone hasn't even posted yet...

Probs just paranoid. I think they're just they were just the two most active people so they ended up talking to each other.

Seriously, did you not put together that newbie scum might suggest no lynch because they fear getting lynched?

I mean... maybe... but if self preservation were triggered by one vote mafia is not the right game for me to be playing.

@shaddowez @titus why are you voting algebra? Post 48 seems legit to me - lets gather more information before we go into the night.

I'll add to the heat as well.

VOTE: shadowez

[nn30]

Realizing I failed to upload an avatar... Hold on...

[Papa Zito]

Realizing I failed to upload an avatar... Hold on...

Oh I thought you were being sassy, now I'm disappointed.