Mini 1819: League of Legends: Clash of Fates (Endgame)

[Thor665]

Greetings all.

I will confirm the third party claim.
I'm not actually doing this because anyone appears to be doubting it, but rather because maybe I can just quote this post to people in other games who try reaction tests from 2008 on me as though they're new and exciting.
From deeply reading page 91 it sounds like this is a smart play;

Vote: SHaziro

Is there a reason we aren't Farm voting anyone?
We should Farm vote me so I can get out of people's hair.

[Thor665]

what's the payout from the shaz lynch?

i guess i'm missing that.

Depends how strongly you town read him.
Are you convinced he's town?
If so - it's a null shift.
If not - it's pro town.

[Thor665]

Why do you strong town read him?

[Thor665]

By the time he's offering himself up - even he's admitting he's not obv. town, so...

[Thor665]

With this many open claim 3rd parties that seems inherently a weak case to me.
Are you aware of some Shaz bussing habits that I'm not? I actually consider that point, just by your description, a perfectly timed moment to bus if Shaz is a busser.

[Thor665]

Shaziro seems to be trying really hard to argue that he is an appropriate lynch.

I like to support those types of player's wishes - I find it rewards town more often than not.

[Thor665]

You're sidestepping a pretty valid and straightforward question I asked you about your town read on Shaziro by basically wanting to role clarify Lycan.
I don't mind the role clarify on Lycan, but that is neither here nor there with the conversation we were having.

[Thor665]

i'm sidestepping because i'm not having a conversation. you're not townreading shaz and you disagree with me? fine.

and no i'm not familiar w/ shaz's meta.

I'm fine that you're fine with my stance.

We are still having a conversation because your stance reads as very superficial/made up and I want you to support it.

[Thor665]

i'm sidestepping because i'm not having a conversation. you're not townreading shaz and you disagree with me? fine.

and no i'm not familiar w/ shaz's meta.

I'm fine that you're fine with my stance.

We are still having a conversation because your stance reads as very superficial/made up and I want you to support it.

too bad

So we'll lynch Shaz and then Postie, since you can't describe your townread.

[Thor665]

Though, actually, if I was town I'd probably suggest Shaz and then you, but people seem to want Postie lynched too, so, whatevs.

[Thor665]

It's amazing that for having not read the game I can describe my reads better than you.
Odd that.
Unless you're scum - then it makes sense.

[Thor665]

What do you think I'm BSing about specifically?
Or was that just more empty opinions?

Because I've stated very precise facts about my issue with you, the only opinion is my call on your alignment due to my assessment of those facts.

[Thor665]

if you're unfamiliar with the context of shaz's case on SiW, you're bullSmurfing by blithly saying "nuh uh."

I did not say 'nuh-uh'
I actually made a very direct set of comments about why I disagreed with your take.
So which of us is BSing exactly?

you're also bullSmurfing a scumread on my slot if you bothered to read mollie's leg of posting OR any of my posting on day 3.

Why does Mollie's posting or your actions Day 1 equate to you being provably town?
I'll agree I haven't read them, but I would tend to think that if you were obv. town you could be doing it on Day 4 also - as opposed to stating empty reads and then throwing tatrums and lying about what other people are saying.

it doesn't really surprise me you're doing this though. it's all about pedantry and having the best zinger comeback, right?

Not all.
But, yeah, I agree that I'm having the better zingers and comebacks.
Of course your empty arguments make it easy, natch.

you can have the last word. i'm not engaging any further.

Yeah, the ol' "I won't debate you because I'm above it - it has nothing to do with you showcasing how right you are, how wrong I am, and how my stances are empty and I can't back anything up, and you're pointing out that I'm BSing'.

Okay, whatevs.
We'll lynch you later and it will all sort out.

[Thor665]

I mean, I'm happy that I'm a firm townread, but I'm a jungle creep Anti, I'm literally meant to get lynched for Town to get ahead. I -should- have pointed that out Day 1 when it looked like we were gonna nolynch, but I wasn't paying enough attention to deadlines.

Agreed - it's why he's scum, you're either his buddy, or he's campaigning for town cred. He has zero reason to call you town beyond his own role PM.

Also, Thor, you've effectively claimed 3rd party at this point, why aren't you claiming outright?

Kinda thought my predecessor would have already done so, and it doesn't really matter because you either will believe I'm a 3rd party that can win with town, in which case I don't need to claim more, or you think I'm lying, in which case I need to die regardless of what I claim. So just behave that way - though I would tend to think an open 3rd claim kinda strongly points to the former, but that's just me.

[Thor665]

I'm also not sure it matters, frankly my predecessors made my wincon quite difficult by being lurksacks, but, them's the breaks.

[Thor665]

If I had any magical scumhunting capabilities I would probably be mildly guarded in revealing them insomuch as I don't want scum to shoot me, as I can't win after death.
As currently stands - you have my honest opinions about people's scumminess - I think that's helpful enough.
If things change, maybe my offers will change, but at the moment that's all I've got from what I see available within the claims.

I would buy into your theory about Anti more (and, yes, I read that case) if he hadn't so blindly tripled down on his read on you as opposed to saying 'yeah, it's gut, but I feel good about it'.
Instead he acted like he had a case, when he didn't, and then got pouncy when I pointed out reality to him.
That's a scum reaction.

[Thor665]

Shaz isn't scum. He wants us to lynch him.

I will agree he says this.

If we are going with Lycan and Shaz' plan then I would prefer if Postie and Thor were not on the wagon.

I intend to be on any wagon that goes through today.

[Thor665]

I have provided reads and opinions - that is the definition of what a town player should do to help town.
The multiple levels are, according to Shaz, chosen by Shaz, learn 2 read?

I have no idea how you even expect to enforce a 'Thor off da wagonz!' plan short of lynching me - I will not help you with your goal, so feel free to react with whatever solution you think is best. I'm here - vote away sweet cheeks - I'm going to vote whatever wagon goes through.

[Thor665]

If you refuse we can always lynch you and Postie together, like I wanted originally.

I would be okay with this.

Thanks for endorsing me as more trustworthy to most of the game?

[Thor665]

-Your reads and opinions haven't changed anything. The game is relatively solved. YOUR role is the only one making things difficult and making some people paranoid.

You are literally the first person expressing that - who else is being all freaked out and confused by me and my role?

-Your refusal to claim or enlighten the town with any info contrasts with being "neutral."

What else do you need to know?

-Shaz is 3rd party and although I trust him, you are claimed 3rd party as well. That is plenty of reason on its own to be wary of allowing you to have any interaction with him at all.

Yeah, the 'interaction' of being on his lynch wagon is just crazy sauce to allow.

-If you're truly neutral why do you insist on being part of the lynch wagon? A five person town-bloc is already established: Myself, lycan, antihero, lld and Shaziro can hammer himself to be absolutely safe. Why are you intent on unraveling whatever plan we come up with?

Well, for a few reasons;
1. My wincon is based on being on lynch wagons.
2. There is absolutely no negative to me being on the lynch wagon unless you think I'm anti-town, in which case the lynch wagon should be on me.

So, what the hell are you spewing about derpy?

[Thor665]

C'mon man, he needs to sweat the theory that we're aligned scum who both claimed 3rd party - let him rock

[Thor665]

Frankly I'm bewildered we're even having the discussion whether or not people find me abrasive.

I'm claimed 3rd party.

You either need to lynch me immediately, or agree to let me scumhunt in exchange for pursuing my wincon. That's how these things work.

[Thor665]

I'd be less bewildered if it was Newbs being poncey - but it's fully fledged members who've been around the block who are having the "debate" with me.
It's like - what are you smoking right now?

At least I think Anti is probably scum - but it appears to make sense that Zefiend is town, so....it's just derp, really.

[Thor665]

I'm not actually saying that, because, as usual, you're being scum and twisting words.

I am saying it's not me - it's you and zefiend, and then offering a reasoning why I find that odd.
If you see a hole in my opinion of how town should treat 3rd party claims, feel free to point it out.
If you see a hole in any of my points about how you're behaving like scum feel free to point them out.

Your empty attack posts remain empty and scummy.

[Thor665]

yeah, there's a hole. it's called "i'm not scum and your model for scumhunting sucks." i never "acted like i had a case," i gave you a reason and you rejected it and i didn't put any more effort into trying to convince you

I will agree that I assessed that you didn't have a case after you presented a paper thin one - I questioned one part of it - and you then claimed it was too much work to present it any more.
At that point my ptions are to;
1. Presume you are lying scum.
2. Presume you are lazy/derp town

I've played with you before, and have seen you town just fine - so #1 speaks to me quite a bit right now.

You just sidestepped the third party thing.
You also are acting like you not having a case you can present should not look scummy to me.
You continue empty attacks.
All of this supports #1
::yawn::

[Thor665]

And mind you, this case that was too much effort to present - was a hard town read.
I mean, seriously now.

[Thor665]

No, you're specifically outlining a claim of why you're treating me badly - and I'm pointing out how that claim is silly and doesn't add up.
You also ignore the other point wherein I invited you to point out issues in logic - because you clearly can't, and your excuses are scum excuses, and your attack is a scum attack, and an attack.
Of course, I'm calling Zefiend likely town and you scum, so that makes sense to me.

[Thor665]

Doesn't justify Zefiend's sloppy play though.
But at least his sloppy play reads as town sloppy, not scum sloppy.
But both are sloppy.

[Thor665]

People are being apathetic, and it looks like neither of the lynches I think are best are going to happen today barring some interesting activity.
That said, as noted, I'm a claimed 3rd party - my help is in being honest about what I think about the wagons, but by dint of being 3rd party I'm also going to do this.

Unvote: Shaziro
Vote: Postie

I still think a Shaziro lynch is a better play overall.
I also think Anti looks far more like scum than Postie, not that Postie is lighting up my world into a town read, but he's only shown a bit of light opportunism thus far to me, while Anti is straight up lying in thread.
Feel free to adjust fire, I'll be there.

[Thor665]

What creates this level of vitriol from you towards my play here?
I'm being perfectly polite, and clear in my opinions - I can't aplogize for playing to the wincon of the role I was handed.
What's your beef?

[Thor665]

So basically you just find me detestable as a human being regardless of what I';m saying - paired up with not actually addressing my "smugness" when I openly am pointing out how I think you're dodging and lying to me?

That's super intense and weird - yeah, if you avoid my games in the future that would be swell.
But I don't get how you get iffy about my "smugness" while not actually addressing me when I call you a liar.
Aren't I, y'know, lying about calling you a liar? Because you're town and not lying? ANd if I'm smug - wouldn't you want to throw that in my face?

Yet you aren't, and are being weird meta passive aggressive about it.
This reads as scummy - or illogical to me.
If it's the latter, yes, please avoid my games. If it's the former - meh, gonna suggest town lynches you for being busted scum.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

if you're unfamiliar with the context of shaz's case on SiW, you're bullSmurfing by blithly saying "nuh uh."

I did not say 'nuh-uh'
I actually made a very direct set of comments about why I disagreed with your take.
So which of us is BSing exactly?

[Thor665]

By the time he's offering himself up - even he's admitting he's not obv. town, so...

With this many open claim 3rd parties that seems inherently a weak case to me.
Are you aware of some Shaz bussing habits that I'm not? I actually consider that point, just by your description, a perfectly timed moment to bus if Shaz is a busser.

And here's my unreasonable, smug, 'nuh'uh' moment, for context.

Anti - you're actually the one being rude, dismissive, and ridiculous.
Not me.

[Thor665]

With this many open claim 3rd parties that seems inherently a weak case to me.
Are you aware of some Shaz bussing habits that I'm not? I actually consider that point, just by your description, a perfectly timed moment to bus if Shaz is a busser.

INHERENTLY A WEAK CASE

what about that is NOT "nuh uh"?

It's a lie because you were suggesting I dismissed your opinion out of hand.
Which is expressly not what I did - I was actually asking you to go deeper on your opinion, and offering a counterpoint thought.
I stand by that thought, it was a perfectly fine place to bus. Like, if I had to pick a time to bus and expect to have it go right for me in any way - that would have been the point.
I then asked you why you disagreed, and if you had any deeper knowledge.

You then threw a hissy fit and acted like I was being a dick and not listening to you.
And have continued to do so.
It's silly.
And is either an intentional lie to discredit me, or you aren't reading what I'm saying and making up conversations in your head.

[Thor665]

It's also a manner to allow you to dodge things.
Y;know, if you aren't going to puke for me suggesting you explain your thoughts to the town.

[Thor665]

I, as stated, read your breakdown of the situation, and asked you a question about it and why you reached that conclusion.
You keep trying to make some sort of deal about my lack of reading now - which is neither here nor there. I'm capable of reading your reasoning, and offering an opinion on that - and I made it very explicit that this is what I was doing. Since I was basing my opinion within your own context of what happened, it makes it a very pointed question that I don't agree with you. You keep ducking that question, and it was not a dismissal. I know you're trying really hard to paint disagreeing as dismissal - but that's not how the world works.

[Thor665]

With this many open claim 3rd parties that seems inherently a weak case to me.
Are you aware of some Shaz bussing habits that I'm not?

I actually consider that point, just by your description

, a perfectly timed moment to bus if Shaz is a busser.

[Thor665]

You also don't address the 3rd party point I made.
You don't address how you have no Shaz bussing awareness.
You don't address that Shaz agrees there is no bussing meta of him,
You don't address how it was a fine time to bus if that was his goal.
You don't address how I asked you anything.

You immediately go with "RAWR, THOR IS DISMISSIVE, SO I'LL DISMISS EVERYTHING HE'S SAYING AND KINDLY IGNORE THE INBUILT HYPOCRISY!"

And then you're saying you're going to black ball me when I suggest you're lying, actng scummy, and dodging because I'm "smug".
Dude...

[Thor665]

And for some weird reason, you don't even do it till I'm voting the wagon you're in support of.
I seriously think you're scum.

[Thor665]

and it doesn't bother me that you didn't read. it's that you didn't read and then you critiqued my reason and pushed down the gas peddle on these uninformed opinions.

Yeah, there is NOTHING about my critique that is limited by my lack of read.
Your value call on the slot is super shallow - and the fact that I could question it by just going "but that's what normal bussing looks like" and you aren't disagreeing with me, but instead making this emotional hoo-hah?

Yeah, that's called Thor having a super valid point you can't dispute so you're trying to sling mud and throw up chaff to distract from that.

the rest don't need addressing. the bussing point is a judgment call and if anyone wants to go into the finer points of why they think shaz bussed there then fine. of course that would require (you guessed it) reading the thread.

What are the finer points making it a not bus?
Because your "finer" point is just the mirror opposite of mine. You say "doesn't look like a bus"and I say "it easily could be a bus, so why such a strong town read?"

It's totally a possible bus - there is no shocking level of super bussing happening there to suggest otherwise.
The full extent of your claim that there is rests on - there were two other wagons.
You want me to honestly believe that you've almost never seen the vast unknowable and unlikely mystic event of scum bussing when other wagons exist?
Welcome to...y'know, like every game with bussing ever.
And apparently suggesting this is worthy to get me blacklisted? This is silly on silly. I'm not buying this derp for one second, and I'm an open 3rd party so you know I'm offering my valid opinion of your play on a town/scum slider.

The way I see it is if there's not a massive movement on shaz within the day and 6hrs I'll be voting postie. I see both thor, shazs and antis point here but its looking like a postie lynch atm with deadline closing in. And a lynch of any kinda is better than none by this games rules from what I can gather.

@Thor: there isn't enough time left in the Day to engage you in meaningful discussion so I'll try to hash things out come twilight. But long story short, the last game I completed on this site had a very similar scenario to this game right now. I won that game as a

heavily distrusted, neutral third-party

but only after RC (the clear in that game) laid into me and flayed off information. I have already gleaned some info from you with my efforts so hopefully you can see the parallel and understand my "sloppy" tactics.

Not really, it seems like a waste of time and spear shaking to me.
Either lynch me or sod off - I've been very clear in that message.
I'm going to be on the lynch wagon that town is lazing into - which is what I claimed full intent to do, and what you opposed.
I see no point to "get into it" in Twilight, as I'm an open 3rd claim, and it's a waste of time to try to control me beyond that, because I'm already at maximum risk for myself already thanks to the prior occupants of my slot. You can't pressure me, you can either believe me or get my slot dead, and everything else is just noise that slows down town regardless.

Of course, if you're right that town is doing so well, that actually benefits me, as I desperately need the extra time for scum to slither around for my own wincon.

But, meh. Hey, if me saying that I should be lynching people and am 3rd party equates to new revelations - then my prior partners did even worse for me than I thought, and if that works for you, rock on, rock on.

In other news, if you're town, you should really lynch Anti - he doesn't believe scum bussing exists with multiple tied wagons to the point of random hard defending a slot over that belief and calling someone terrible for questioning the idea because they "didn't read".

You tell me how sane that sounds coming from town.

Meanwhile we'll lynch Postie, who I actually kinda expect will flip town.

This has been me being honest.
You're welcome town.
Scum can thank me for the Postie vote later by not shooting me

[Thor665]

12 hrs left. Things not turning round now.

I love how everyone is actually coming out of the woodwork just now after lurking out for days.
It's far too many to all be scum, but c'mon guys. I'm not part of the town, but even I can spot that this isn't healthy for town. You may want to work on that tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I'd especially like to give a big thanks to all the replacements, particularly Thor who replaced into an essentially unwinnable scenario and still made a strong effort and also to Postie for replacing in when she did. I hope that you guys enjoyed playing the game more than I enjoyed watching it and just hating myself for how I designed it.

It's not even close to my least favorite game, though the swing was clearly very brutal on multiple fronts. Maybe there's some sort of balance to be found in awarding experience to the side that's losing? Though I'll admit the flavor gets a little wonky on that one, but...eh.

I will always happily argue that no 3rd parties should ever exist, but I'm apparently in a minority on that one

@Anti - that all of your talk was apparently honest confuses me - but I'll happily avoid the hell out of you in the future. For the record, I wasn't trying to be dismissive, and would very strongly suggest you were the one playing dismissively of me. But that said, if questioning your reads in the way I did makes you want to puke and not answer me - yeah, it's best that we avoid each other as I'll assuredly do it again, as it's how I play the game