Mini 1836: Space Mafia (Game Over)

[PantherPunt]

I 90% don't believe the claim

his claim is probably legit, and confirmable so regretfully he isn't the right play anymore

he's not the right play today

but he's not confirmable by a lonnnnnng shot. until someone confirms him and then flips town

[Dunnstral]

I townread itlepip and xkf out of that group

[Dunnstral]

Hopefully you will show some RESPECT post-game

hopefully if you're town you learn to stop trying to drive meta lynches and use scum hunting instead. that's a an important lesson to be learned

Meta IS scumhunting

[PantherPunt]

I townread itlepip and xkf out of that group

and you still can't verbalize how itlepip resembles the Stack the Deck game. bc that's the basis of that read unless you tell me otherwise

don't understand how you town read xkf either

[Dunnstral]

don't understand how you scum read xkf.

[Xkfyu]

@xkf
is zach a vote due to a dunn town read or a strong zach scum read? I could go look, but I imagine you have some new, further developed opinions to offer so I want to ask

A bit of both really. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything further developed right now.

Not on those two, anyways. I can't really be bothered to read the nonsense that the two of them are arguing about.

I would, however, be willing to lynch you, as you are steadily climbing up my "want to lynch" pile.

[Dunnstral]

and you still can't verbalize how itlepip resembles the Stack the Deck game. bc that's the basis of that read unless you tell me otherwise

"still" ? Nobody asked

[TwoFace]

Hopefully you will show some RESPECT post-game

hopefully if you're town you learn to stop trying to drive meta lynches and use scum hunting instead. that's a an important lesson to be learned

Meta IS scumhunting

mental note if you are town never play with you again

[TwoFace]

and you still can't verbalize how itlepip resembles the Stack the Deck game. bc that's the basis of that read unless you tell me otherwise

"still" ? Nobody asked

I think I remember panther asking a while back.

[PantherPunt]

@xkf
is zach a vote due to a dunn town read or a strong zach scum read? I could go look, but I imagine you have some new, further developed opinions to offer so I want to ask

A bit of both really. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything further developed right now.

Not on those two, anyways. I can't really be bothered to read the nonsense that the two of them are arguing about.

I would, however, be willing to lynch you, as you are steadily climbing up my "want to lynch" pile.

good luck to you on that front.

you can say why if you genuinely mean it and want others to get behind it. it's a bit surprising considering you left the thread saying you townread me.

that would mean you're full caught up on posts since then. but you just said that you haven't read the nonsesne between the two of them. so what have you read and what have you not????

(there's also the question hanging out there about why you don't mind dunn's push on zach being meta-based, despite being on the record to strongly dislike cases/votes based on meta.)

[Dunnstral]

Hopefully you will show some RESPECT post-game

hopefully if you're town you learn to stop trying to drive meta lynches and use scum hunting instead. that's a an important lesson to be learned

Meta IS scumhunting

mental note if you are town never play with you again

Gonna flip a coin on that one?

If you disagree there's nothing really to say. You have some bias against scumhunting via meta, it just so happens that I've played with or seen almost everyone in this game (which usually doesn't happen)

[Xkfyu]

@xkfyu

What you are sayin is equivalent to "why scum hunt at all?"

That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is more equivalent to "don't use meta to scum hunt at all."

why haven't you taken issue with Dunn voting Zach purely off of meta with no other explanation?

Because, no matte how many time I tell them, people still insist that meta is a good scum hunting tool.

Apparently, people believe that everyone else are just Mafia playing automatons that play a certain way as town, and a completely different way as scum.

And if people can't understand that a self-aware Mafia player can change up the way he/she plays, at will, then no amount of lecturing from me will help them.

[TwoFace]

meta is trash and proven incorrect over and over again. meta isn't scum hunting. meta is playing lazy and signs of imo a shit player.

[Dunnstral]

meta is trash and proven incorrect over and over again. meta isn't scum hunting. meta is playing lazy and signs of imo a shit player.

[PantherPunt]

and you still can't verbalize how itlepip resembles the Stack the Deck game. bc that's the basis of that read unless you tell me otherwise

"still" ? Nobody asked

Itlepip isn't playing differently from when I saw him as town

can you briefly tell me:
what game you played with him as town, and how you'd characterize that town game
cite some 'thing' from this game (a post or two would be amazing) that made you say "aha! playing like that town game I saw from him"
if you think your read is good, sell it to me

you didn't do this^^ just like you can't/won't do with regard to zach

I think Dunn is pretty damn scummy

I just read itlepip's iso in the past two games I've played with him. Dunn said he's acting just like town self in Stack the Deck. THAT COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH

Itlepip here has made SOFT votes the whole time--twice making a vote that said "voting X until Y happens", hasn't made scum reads in the way that I've seen (i.e. in this game there is no progression that follows from questions and sequences of solving) when in our other games, votes were made with confidence that a slot was really actually scummy

and the only real "push" in this game has been on Zach and the post reads as fake and unrighteous. especially considering he peeled off of it to vote massive and then now to put a loner vote on gerry when zach was an actual counterwagon

I can pull posts from town itlepip and then contrast them with this game if people want

but I would like to see itlepip become the competing wagon with dunn and with any luck we'll have s/s wagons. it's always best to have two strong competing wagons going into the end of a day to see where people go and force a choice.

VOTE: itlepip

so dunn and itlepip have been strong townreading each other the whole game and I just don't see how

I actually asked itlepip to explain where he thought dunn was super obvious town and he ignored that and came back with the pop-in to vote gerry

Spoiler:

I've already said why Dunn is my top town, his thought process is super transparent and really easy to see town mentality

hi itlepip. I hope to find what you've already said in my reread, but for quick reference, can you show me the posts you find to have a super transparent thought process and/or particularly towny mentality?

I'm fine with a gerry compromise ftr.

VOTE: Gerry

dunn has just said it's the same itlepip as stack the deck and that's a terribly weak fallback meta read that he cannot substantiate. I can and am willing if he wants to go toe to toe with me substantiate that there is a huge difference.

so them townreading each other for absolutely no reason probably means they're both just wolves trying to powerwolf and strong townread each other

the alternative world where only one is a wolf and they are just TMI'ing that the other is town bc there is no basis for that read is possible but not probable

the world where they're both town and have been obstinately refusing to explain their reads on each other and struggling to form coherent thoughts and contribute to the game would make me so disappointed in both of them that I can't bear to believe it's a possible world

you said nothing in response to either of these two posts.

[Dunnstral]

Well, I'd say some players are better about using meta than others.

[PantherPunt]

@xkfyu

What you are sayin is equivalent to "why scum hunt at all?"

That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is more equivalent to "don't use meta to scum hunt at all."

why haven't you taken issue with Dunn voting Zach purely off of meta with no other explanation?

Because, no matte how many time I tell them, people still insist that meta is a good scum hunting tool.

Apparently, people believe that everyone else are just Mafia playing automatons that play a certain way as town, and a completely different way as scum.

And if people can't understand that a self-aware Mafia player can change up the way he/she plays, at will, then no amount of lecturing from me will help them.

so you just got to post 1210 now in your catch up.

what made you want to vote me prior to that post? bc you said I'm shooting up your 'want to lynch' list

[Dunnstral]

Hey Panther, you're really hung up over me. Do you still intend to lynch me today? If not, you're just fillering and avoiding picking a lynch while the deadline ticks down

we have like 18 hours, and I'm not going to be around for the end of that

[Dunnstral]

and you still can't verbalize how itlepip resembles the Stack the Deck game. bc that's the basis of that read unless you tell me otherwise

"still" ? Nobody asked

Itlepip isn't playing differently from when I saw him as town

can you briefly tell me:
what game you played with him as town, and how you'd characterize that town game
cite some 'thing' from this game (a post or two would be amazing) that made you say "aha! playing like that town game I saw from him"
if you think your read is good, sell it to me

you didn't do this^^ just like you can't/won't do with regard to zach

I think Dunn is pretty damn scummy

I just read itlepip's iso in the past two games I've played with him. Dunn said he's acting just like town self in Stack the Deck. THAT COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH

Itlepip here has made SOFT votes the whole time--twice making a vote that said "voting X until Y happens", hasn't made scum reads in the way that I've seen (i.e. in this game there is no progression that follows from questions and sequences of solving) when in our other games, votes were made with confidence that a slot was really actually scummy

and the only real "push" in this game has been on Zach and the post reads as fake and unrighteous. especially considering he peeled off of it to vote massive and then now to put a loner vote on gerry when zach was an actual counterwagon

I can pull posts from town itlepip and then contrast them with this game if people want

but I would like to see itlepip become the competing wagon with dunn and with any luck we'll have s/s wagons. it's always best to have two strong competing wagons going into the end of a day to see where people go and force a choice.

VOTE: itlepip

so dunn and itlepip have been strong townreading each other the whole game and I just don't see how

I actually asked itlepip to explain where he thought dunn was super obvious town and he ignored that and came back with the pop-in to vote gerry

Spoiler:

I've already said why Dunn is my top town, his thought process is super transparent and really easy to see town mentality

hi itlepip. I hope to find what you've already said in my reread, but for quick reference, can you show me the posts you find to have a super transparent thought process and/or particularly towny mentality?

I'm fine with a gerry compromise ftr.

VOTE: Gerry

dunn has just said it's the same itlepip as stack the deck and that's a terribly weak fallback meta read that he cannot substantiate. I can and am willing if he wants to go toe to toe with me substantiate that there is a huge difference.

so them townreading each other for absolutely no reason probably means they're both just wolves trying to powerwolf and strong townread each other

the alternative world where only one is a wolf and they are just TMI'ing that the other is town bc there is no basis for that read is possible but not probable

the world where they're both town and have been obstinately refusing to explain their reads on each other and struggling to form coherent thoughts and contribute to the game would make me so disappointed in both of them that I can't bear to believe it's a possible world

you said nothing in response to either of these two posts.

I mean

I'm not quoting all the things you "missed". I didn't miss the first half either, I responded to those

[TwoFace]

meh, at this point I don't even care if dunn is town. as long as he thinks meta is a valuable scum hunting tool, he's not going to be useful

[Xkfyu]

@xkf
is zach a vote due to a dunn town read or a strong zach scum read? I could go look, but I imagine you have some new, further developed opinions to offer so I want to ask

A bit of both really. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything further developed right now.

Not on those two, anyways. I can't really be bothered to read the nonsense that the two of them are arguing about.

I would, however, be willing to lynch you, as you are steadily climbing up my "want to lynch" pile.

good luck to you on that front.

you can say why if you genuinely mean it and want others to get behind it. it's a bit surprising considering you left the thread saying you townread me.

that would mean you're full caught up on posts since then. but you just said that you haven't read the nonsesne between the two of them. so what have you read and what have you not????

(there's also the question hanging out there about why you don't mind dunn's push on zach being meta-based, despite being on the record to strongly dislike cases/votes based on meta.)

Thanks for that. Yeah, I do mean it. I meant the town read thing too, but I've changed my mind.

Don't worry though. I have no illusions of being able to lynch you. Not right now anyways. You're too townie to ever lynch early game, based on play, even when you're scum.

And no, I'm not completely caught up. I've done quite a bit of skimming, but Dunn and Zach have been arguing like this all game. It's really off putting.

Anyways, in respect to the question that I must have missed, I hate both of their meta based pushes on the other one. I understand that when you play with someone on a regular basis, some form of meta is unavoidable. I even do it some on the other site that I play on when each game consists of mostly the same player pool. In general though, I just think it's dumb. At best, it's unreliable.

However, I don't ever think it's scummy, and the fact that they are both using meta as evidence for the cases on the other is completely irrelevant in respect to my individual reads on them.

[PantherPunt]

don't understand how you scum read xkf.

these posts were horrible. and remind me of how awkwardly xkf posted in the scum game we just played together.

Spoiler:

VOTE: TwoFace

Mine flipped tails.

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

tails means no rvs, which implies that is a serious vote so is that a serious vote?

You catch on quick.

so why is your vote serious?

I think your "coin flip" was fake.

well it wasn't, but even if it was that would make you want to seriously vote me?

if you are town

I would seriously vote you for far less reasons.

he backpedals it later and this post reads very fake:

Spoiler:

i'm going to learn hard town on toto right now.

Why?

@grapes - because he's painfully obvious town. His actions look genuine to me. His response that he was accused of being coached look genuine.

@dunn - mainly for post 114 (but tbh none of your posts make me get a town vibe). No way town makes that post. It's obvious he was sharing his thoughts and even VI's (which I didn't get the impression he was) and n00bs (which he probably is) are perfectly capable of doing. He's an easy target for scum to go after. Then I saw the very next post and that screams scum. Who freaking cares if massive dropped an Rvs vote and didn't comment on anything else. It's not AI at all. You then accuse him of ignoring the game which you don't even know it's true(which he later confirms isn't).

It's basically seems like you are trying too hard and being very manipulative

Full disclosure here. All the stuff I said earlier about my vote on you being serious, none of that was serious. Well, it was serious, I just wasn't seriously scum reading you.

NOW, however, I am, and my vote will remain on you.

minor ding for feeling the need to say he was town in this post

Spoiler:

How so?

Went from looking like a vi to knowing exactly what they're talking about

The way they talked was different along with what they were saying

This is the post Twoface says "no town would make"

Which is weird, because I'm town and it's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

Didn't like his quick jump onto naomi after massive 'slip' thing

And then the rest of his ISO is a whole bunch of arguing over nothing. he isn't inquiring into things to read alignments. posts like these are not solving the game:

Spoiler:

Gerry and Maria basically will never really go after each other cause they are friends. It's why they probably should y be allowed to play together but whatever. It's not up to me.

I have seen Maria push her friends in the past, and vice versa. Your claim is simply false.

the proper question is how anyone sensible is SRing Zach

It's really not that hard of a scum read, to be honest.

Hello,

I'm having a hard time following the conversation here. I will try to catch up today or tomorrow and post my thoughts. So far I agree with itlepip and others on Zach's filler posts. Seems like a scummy thing to cloud the conversation, but I don't know if he always just behaves like this.

There really isn't much of anything to follow. Just a bunch of back and forth bickering and childish "you're dumb" comments.

Basically, unwarranted large egos getting in the way of good scum hunting.

Gerry and Maria basically will never really go after each other cause they are friends. It's why they probably should y be allowed to play together but whatever. It's not up to me.

I have seen Maria push her friends in the past, and vice versa. Your claim is simply false.

Well she admitted that's what she's doing this game so naturally I'm going to think it's going to be like that in other games.

Again, false.

Are you having trouble reading?

Are you? She said she's giving Gerry a free pass day 1 cause they are friends.

I am. Which is how I know that isn't what she said.

What she ACTUALLY said was that Gerry doesn't do anything in D1, but he does do more after that. And she knows that because they are friends.

And she never said anything about giving him a "free pass." Those were your words.

pedit: Went back and read a little huh?

Nope not talking about you. Not even sure why he felt the need to bring it back up or why I was stupid enough to engage him. It's not relevant to the game.

It's extremely relevant, actually.

How?

Because what you said about Maria was false. Anyone can see that. You basically admitted as much after having a little reread.

Now, if you were intentionally making it up, in order to push an agenda, then that would make you scum and Maria town.

If you genuinely believed what you were saying about Maria, and were just wrong, then you're more than likely town, and it's a null look on Maria.

So yeah, pretty relevant. Just probably not in the way you were thinking.

Even if I were scum I'd still believe what I said because that's what she actually implies. My opinion of her statement wouldn't change based on my alignment which is why it's not game relevant. Thanks for proving to me yet again you should probably be ignored

She didn't imply that. Not even close. You're still wrong. Repeating it over and over isn't going to suddenly make it true.

Opinions are non AI. If you haven't figured that out yet why are you even playing this game?

Opinions, just like anything else, can be faked.

Scum can give genuined opinions sure, but town ALWAYS (for the most part) give genuine opinions. So, not all opinions are NAI.

That being said, MY opinion of Maria's statement is the same as Twoface's -- that she's purposefully giving gerry a pass today. But honestly, she's giving everyone a pass today, she just has a "reason" for this one.

I'm actually not arguing that she's isn't giving him a pass today. That much is true.

I'm arguing that she isn't giving him a pass today because they are friends. She is giving him a pass today because of meta reasons that suggest he will be useful D2 and beyond.

I'm trying to paint the picture here but it's the overall body of work

Then he just came back in simultaneously saying he has switched from townreading me to scumreading me while also saying that he didn't read any dunn:zach back and forth which doesn't add up

[Zachstralkita]

Hey Panther, you're really hung up over me. Do you still intend to lynch me today? If not, you're just fillering and avoiding picking a lynch while the deadline ticks down

we have like 18 hours, and I'm not going to be around for the end of that

You're pretty hung up over me

[PantherPunt]

@xkf
is zach a vote due to a dunn town read or a strong zach scum read? I could go look, but I imagine you have some new, further developed opinions to offer so I want to ask

A bit of both really. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything further developed right now.

Not on those two, anyways. I can't really be bothered to read the nonsense that the two of them are arguing about.

I would, however, be willing to lynch you, as you are steadily climbing up my "want to lynch" pile.

good luck to you on that front.

you can say why if you genuinely mean it and want others to get behind it. it's a bit surprising considering you left the thread saying you townread me.

that would mean you're full caught up on posts since then. but you just said that you haven't read the nonsesne between the two of them. so what have you read and what have you not????

(there's also the question hanging out there about why you don't mind dunn's push on zach being meta-based, despite being on the record to strongly dislike cases/votes based on meta.)

I've done quite a bit of skimming, but Dunn and Zach have been arguing like this all game.

so what in your bit of skimming flipped your read on me

[Xkfyu]

@xkfyu

What you are sayin is equivalent to "why scum hunt at all?"

That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is more equivalent to "don't use meta to scum hunt at all."

why haven't you taken issue with Dunn voting Zach purely off of meta with no other explanation?

Because, no matte how many time I tell them, people still insist that meta is a good scum hunting tool.

Apparently, people believe that everyone else are just Mafia playing automatons that play a certain way as town, and a completely different way as scum.

And if people can't understand that a self-aware Mafia player can change up the way he/she plays, at will, then no amount of lecturing from me will help them.

so you just got to post 1210 now in your catch up.

what made you want to vote me prior to that post? bc you said I'm shooting up your 'want to lynch' list

We both know that I can't point to something specific that changed my mind. Your logic is valid, and you're asking a good questions. In fact, you totally deserve a town read from everyone. It's a gut feeling is all.