Mini 1837: Family Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, and as for your "it's so terrible you're going back on Elyse, she's obvtown from kraska interactions"... the way that kraska backed me up against Elyse when not a whole lot of other people were listening is not scum-scum interaction. You're pushing me despite of that because of a pre-existing scumread that you had on me. Alternatively, I'm pushing Elyse because of a pre-existing scumread I had there; if a reread shows that wow kraska's interactions with Elyse are in no way scum-scum then I'll back off but that's not what a skim says and giga's meta of "kraska doesn't like attention when scum" is applied too naively (as demonstrated by the kraska scum flip) so I'm not just going to blind trust it.

[Nachomamma8]

It's ok Kraska, I'll fight to my death to make sure they don't lynch you

unless i scumread you this game, that'd be a first

btw kraska you should totally vote with us!! why no RVS vote?

elyse, i'm townreading both of those people though?? explain

also kraska who are you voting for? i can't find a vote from you

I can see the incentive behind his nacho vote and he's sticking out his neck a little...looks town

good, then i can feel comfortable calling this ^ my happy town family

i had slight pause about cakey because i do agree that the logic around his read on you is ??? but tbh it could be worse

(in lieu of readlists i will make edits to this picture for all of my townreads. spyrex might be the family dog but i'm still thinking about that one)

None of these interactions seem particularly scum-scum.

@postie, i doubt anyone's going to quickhammer and i don't really want to condone cakez's push until i can reassess and decide it's valid

plus i don't think a quickhammer is that much of a loss so

I don't relly understand why you ended up voting Spicy when you did; you stated earlier that it was for policy lynch reasons, but I thought the plan was to game solve in the meantime?

Did you intentionally state your ability to read her amounts to (roughly) the same averages as a toss of a coin? (Slightly lower, actually)

lol yes that was the joke

but i do think that after hydra-experience and several games with her that my read on kraska is most likely the one to be correct.

Continuing to note interactions that are extremely blatant for scum-scum (and that weren't reciprocated by kraska at all, so the chances of a coordinated strategy go down). There's no reason for giga to blatantly tie themselves to kraska so hard when kraska wasn't in any significant danger and pushing dramonic for criticizing their kraska read kind of layers on the "too blatant to be scum" levels.

Do you have anything to add to the dramonic push? I've been uninterested because I don't see how his play has been different from normal dramonic play thus far.

kind of not... i'm kind of strategically sheeping this point in the game state (i.e. following townreads in their pushes that i don't feel are misguided) but i

do

have kind of an almost-actual-for real scumread of my own on dram now so

245 didn't feel like a townpost. like where is the town motivation in taking potshots at someone's townreads if you're not scumreading any of those people? if he disagreed about one of my reads that's one thing, but that's not at all what he said. also him calling it a townbloc was kind of ???, while i was sheeping cakey at the time i didn't really have any intention to get those 4 people to work together because i still feel like i'm sorting everyone at not super happy with all of my reads. i just don't really get how someone reacts to me saying "I have 4 townreads!" the way he did, it was an overreaction to nothing.

also his explanation for it later made no sense and i felt like he didn't even read any of my posts so uh... there's that. i'm kind of shit at explaining gutreads so i don't even know if this is coherent but this is the best way i can put it for now.

also elyse's overblown push feels more like a personality-sort-of-thing to me so i didn't really read it one way or the other personally, i liked the vote at the time because your earlier posts didn't jive well with me for reasons i think i've explained?

i'll admit that i'm not giving the game 100% atm because my brain is kind of mush from irl stuff and it's still early game, my midgame is generally a bit better so i'm not going to be this useless later

one more thing: what's dramonic usually like then? the only people i've played with here are obviously Kraska and House, and also Elyse so i have a general idea of how they play but if this sort of posting is normal for dramonic i'm lost

(this was a kind of long phone post so if you need me to rephrase something more coherently i can do that.... later... much later )

If dramonic is scum, then Giga's town equity goes up even more.
Giga's approach of "following people who he thinks are town and not entirely misguided" is reflected pretty solidly in his earlier play. I thought that his case on dramonic being scum for a nonsensical criticism of the townreads was completely reasonable and seemed genuine.

I don't really see the reason why they are a major scumread.

[Elyse]

@Nacho
I'm not "off the table" by any means. But you didn't explain why my interactions with kraska look like scum-scum when the majority of people think that it makes me look town. Your vote on me is just stale and I'd expect some additional explanation from town you.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho
I'm not "off the table" by any means. But you didn't explain why my interactions with kraska look like scum-scum when the majority of people think that it makes me look town. Your vote on me is just stale and I'd expect some additional explanation from town you.

Vote: Dramonic

Same goes to you, Elyse.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, Giga - I don't think that you're scum. Come lynch Elyse with me.

Vote: Elyse

I don't think Kraska/Elyse makes much sense. Why do you think she was bussing?

When kraska voted Elyse, I had already been pushing Elyse for about 10 pages and no one was really buying it. This means that there's decent enough evidence of kraska not really thinking the wagon would go through. As far as the actual content of kraska's push, kraska mostly pushed elyse by going "hey do you want to vote elyse with me?" and by rehashing points that I had already pointed out, which means that unless she thought that her asking people to join the wagon was magically going to drive it to a lynch, she probably didn't think that lynch was going through.

It was a strong place to provide distance; there was a possibility that eventually I would wear down Elyse or the rest of the town enough to where I would be able to push a lynch through and thus kraska would look better in retrospect (despite not putting her team in any significant danger at the time). Whenever I am discounting a read with "this isn't a bus", I ask myself if their push on another player would damage the scumteam as a whole. If it wouldn't, you can't really give bus cred for it.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

giga's meta of "kraska doesn't like attention when scum" is applied too naively (as demonstrated by the kraska scum flip) so I'm not just going to blind trust it.

i mean that's not exactly what i was saying but i'm... not really going to defend myself here because i was wrong.

I don't relly understand why you ended up voting Spicy when you did; you stated earlier that it was for policy lynch reasons, but I thought the plan was to game solve in the meantime?

I was townreading the wagon and kind of scumreading the slot. i did call it a policy lynch but i admitted to half-joking in that regard... it was more the users we lynched and the vibe of their posts that gave it the vibe of a not-so-serious lynch. i still think it was a perfectly fine lynch btw

When kraska voted Elyse, I had already been pushing Elyse for about 10 pages and no one was really buying it. This means that there's decent enough evidence of kraska not really thinking the wagon would go through. As far as the actual content of kraska's push, kraska mostly pushed elyse by going "hey do you want to vote elyse with me?" and by rehashing points that I had already pointed out, which means that unless she thought that her asking people to join the wagon was magically going to drive it to a lynch, she probably didn't think that lynch was going through.

It was a strong place to provide distance; there was a possibility that eventually I would wear down Elyse or the rest of the town enough to where I would be able to push a lynch through and thus kraska would look better in retrospect (despite not putting her team in any significant danger at the time). Whenever I am discounting a read with "this isn't a bus", I ask myself if their push on another player would damage the scumteam as a whole. If it wouldn't, you can't really give bus cred for it.

OK, this I can follow... meaning I need to actually do my homework and reread this game (i thought the kraska guilty meant i can just shrug this off as a TvT )

your point fits into what interpretation I had of kraska's game by the way... elyse

was

the "counterwagon that never goes through" day 1, it's just that it wasn't how i expected scum!kraska to work with it. usually i've seen her leading the push in the most passive way possible, so that she usually ends up as the sole voter. point is though i have to look into this more and my read of kraska was trash.

But if you feel this why, why throw away the push and change your vote to Dramonic?

btw I want to see Ranmaru respond to your points against Me/Kraska as a scumteam because if he agrees, then maybe this town can actually unify and improve our group dynamic. I feel extremely awkward and paranoid I'm being buddied/pushed as low hanging fruit that it's kind of hard for me to focus on what really matters. probably because my play is usually better, i have never really felt like

the lynch of the day

before and it's not really... not a position I can work in well.

[Ranmaru]

Camn Scum [Follows reachy Elyse argument, puts giga on cull list, votes lynch bait twice, votes hiplop, is budding with house] (#24, #33, #42, #166, #289, #328, #407, #409, #419, #531, #570, #606)

I am still under the impression scum have BP to counter a Town Dayvig. Now that Zito has flipped as mason dayvig, that points to Camn. Add to that, she is voting based on scum's reads list, instead of looking at play. The only things I do think can be legit is Kraska's actions on Day one and how she used her vote. Her reads list after being guiltied is only a means to spread misinformation.

Vote: Camn

[Ranmaru]

This makes me reconsider my read on Giga at the moment. I felt she was scum who couldn't get into the game, but now I realize she possibly was confused about Kraska's play just as Postie was. I can also see why she may be having trouble finding scum when she has one scum (Camn) as town early game and then putting her to null regardless of flip. Seeing as it's now possible town could have been fooled by Kraska's play, I have Giga as null-town. Null-town because I still can't see much else from Giga that makes her town to me, but can understand why she's having a hard time.

[Ranmaru]

VOTE: nacho
I don't have a useful result unfortunately, so going with my top scumread

Two things:

1. What happened to the result?
2. Vote Camn with me.

[SirCakez]

Yeah it could have been pretty helpful for night actions

What night actions?
You're always getting protection over me.
You're the investigative role, so it's not like you're ever changing your read on me.
Papa Zito was the presumed killing role; he wasn't doubting me and didn't have shots at night.

I'll respond to the Elyse points later.

Mine, your reads could have helped
And any other PRs that may still be unrevealed

Oh, and as for your "it's so terrible you're going back on Elyse, she's obvtown from kraska interactions"... the way that kraska backed me up against Elyse when not a whole lot of other people were listening is not scum-scum interaction. You're pushing me despite of that because of a pre-existing scumread that you had on me. Alternatively, I'm pushing Elyse because of a pre-existing scumread I had there; if a reread shows that wow kraska's interactions with Elyse are in no way scum-scum then I'll back off but that's not what a skim says and giga's meta of "kraska doesn't like attention when scum" is applied too naively (as demonstrated by the kraska scum flip) so I'm not just going to blind trust it.

I'm pretty sure someone else (ran I think) said that Kraska doesn't like bussing. And look at the quote I pulled earlier. Kraska's pushing on Elyse didn't look like bussing at all.

VOTE: nacho
I don't have a useful result unfortunately, so going with my top scumread

Two things:

1. What happened to the result?
2. Vote Camn with me.

It tentatively aligns with what camn said earlier (no this isn't a clear, don't take it like that)
Nacho is scummier

[Ranmaru]

I still don't get what that means Cakes. Can you clarify?
Also, read on Elyse?

[SirCakez]

If I go into more detail my role will be obvious and then it's less useful
Town

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru, why does scum need bulletproof to counter the town dayvig when the town dayvig is already "countered" by being lover-masons?

[Ranmaru]

Scumreads

:

Postie scum [Acting town, fake reads, takes long to push anyone] (no reason to ask that, it was a good question)(#22, #147, #196 > #263, #226,#247, #278, #316, #333, #336, #369, #370, #422, #425) Good point #186, #458 , #660, feels like it took her a while to get around to this vote

Camn Scum [Follows reachy Elyse argument, puts giga on cull list, votes lynch bait twice, votes hiplop, is budding with house] (#24, #33, #42, #166, #289, #328, #407, #409, #419, #531, #570, #606)

Elyse scum [early 'postie fine' read, very reachy, forced, very stubborn, comments on nothing else, forced confidence, posts a lot more in her other game and seems more genuine there, House scum read is down-graded to null without a reason] (#69, #70, #74, #276, #299 , #329 [good point on camn #299])

Vote: Postie

To clarify, if you're scum Giga that means if there is a Dayvig, scum may have BP to counter it.

VOTE: nacho
I don't have a useful result unfortunately, so going with my top scumread

That is a good point. I figured scum would need the protection, but I guess getting a 2-for-1 trumps protection then? Are we thinking a total 4-man scumteam or 3-man scumteam?

[Nachomamma8]

i mean that's not exactly what i was saying

What were you saying?

[Ranmaru]

That is a good point. I figured scum would need the protection, but I guess getting a 2-for-1 trumps protection then? Are we thinking a total 4-man scumteam or 3-man scumteam?

[Nachomamma8]

That is a good point. I figured scum would need the protection, but I guess getting a 2-for-1 trumps protection then? Are we thinking a total 4-man scumteam or 3-man scumteam?

3.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Elyse

I actually agree with your argument. Also Elyse's push seems like a chain-saw (even though you haven't really attacked Kraska), which checks out as I'd look at both actions to see if it's mutual.

[Ranmaru]

If I go into more detail my role will be obvious and then it's less useful

FOS: Cakes

[Nachomamma8]

But if you feel this why, why throw away the push and change your vote to Dramonic?

Today feels like it will be an uphill battle. Most people see Elyse/me as a pair containing one scum. Most people don't read the words that I write about Elyse. I feel that it will be more healthy for the town if I shake out Elyse's partner and force her to bus just so she doesn't look terrible compared to me, and it will ptobably be useful for Cakez's investigative role that most of us already know but we are pretending that we don't.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote; Vote: Elyse

I actually agree with your argument. Also Elyse's push seems like a chain-saw (even though you haven't really attacked Kraska), which checks out as I'd look at both actions to see if it's mutual.

Who do you think her partner is?

[Ranmaru]

Cakes.

[Nachomamma8]

So Cakez, as scum, decided to fakeclaim a guilty on his partner despite the possibility of an investigative role (which is present in most games) counterclaiming and sinking both him and kraska for absolutely no benefit at all?

[Nachomamma8]

If you're curious as to what his role is, he's probably a tracker or else he would have targeted me already.

[Ranmaru]

Yet Zito died as mason-lovers which counts as an investigative role. Cakes never full-claimed, and isn't giving any clear result today. Seeing as there is a mason-lover in the setup, it is possible scum only have goons and guessed that they could fake claim a guilty. This also gives Giga town points since she asked why Cakes investigated Kraska instead of you, his main suspect.