Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: Lowell

You vote Saru, and then immediately switch to his recommended wagon? WTF?

[Thor665]

My advice is to stop trying to discuss logic with him - I spent an entire day trying the same and it failed abysmally. You just need to assess him off the votes and flips.
He clearly can't/won't debate logic, and also clearly does/is faking pure gut play sheathed in pretend logic.

[Foxbird]

Votecount 2.9

karnos

(1) - Thor665

Saru

(1) - aronagrundy

Thor665

(1) - karnos

LmkGuy

(2) - Fire Assassin, Lowell

Lowell

(3) - Saru, LmkGuy, ironstove

ironstove

(1) - PenguinPower

Not Voting

(2) - Nero Cain, AlpacaAlpaca

With

11

players eligible to vote, it’s

6

to lynch!

Day 2 will end in

(expired on 2016-11-11 12:47:28).

Mod Notes:

Searching a replacement for AlpacaAlpaca.

[Nero Cain]

iron could be scum or just poor town. IDK. Hype for Alpaca replacement!

[Thor665]

iron could be scum or just poor town. IDK.

I lean the latter on presumption of Karnos.

[karnos]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

[Saru]

What makes Lowell scum lurk as opposed to your claim that town is being apathetic?

Town is being apathetic at the moment, but it really wasn't D1, where Lowell was still being a scum lurk. He's kept up the behavior since D1, in fact. It'd be different if he became a lurk just recently, as that could be chalked up to apathy, but that's not the case.

[Foxbird]

bji replaces AlpacaAlpaca!

Say hi!

[ironstove]

Hi bji, provide me with a definitive list of reads along with your name, address, date of birth, and social.

[bji]

Hey ho, catching up obviously. I'm at work and my time is limited at the moment so this might take a while. Then again, who likes to work when they could be reading mafiascum instead so maybe this won't take a while.

[aronagrundy]

@thor:

Frankly I'd be happy if you and Stove (and Aron a bit) could all chill jets and be a little more clear on your actual thoughts. I feel like all three of you are thrashing around following pushes of the moment, and I think it's killing wagon analysis and building.

Idk I think I was pretty clear as to why I was arguing with saru (which is like what all but one of my posts today have been about). What type of town play are you proposing here?

@iron:
Where were you when I voted pp for having filler/OMGUSy posts day 1?

[Thor665]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

Welcome to fake meta or 'I don't give an arse' meta.
I clearly and obviously focus on a single player all the time, have openly argued that it is good play, and explained how it is different than tunneling in multiple games.

What makes Lowell scum lurk as opposed to your claim that town is being apathetic?

Town is being apathetic at the moment, but it really wasn't D1, where Lowell was still being a scum lurk. He's kept up the behavior since D1, in fact. It'd be different if he became a lurk just recently, as that could be chalked up to apathy, but that's not the case.

From my experience with Lowell that may not be as valid a tell as you think, but okay.

Idk I think I was pretty clear as to why I was arguing with saru (which is like what all but one of my posts today have been about). What type of town play are you proposing here?

One where people flip and flop with reasons as opposed to hard reversing reads every few days so no push goes anywhere.

[aronagrundy]

Question to the town:

It might be the "all that" that you're bothered by, which is semantics, really. It was only the iron townread and the exception argument that I felt was being copied (although now I see that wasn't the case). Nothing else, to be perfectly clear.

For reference, the first post that saru says he scumreads thor:

As for the rest of the game - I'd say maybe Thor taking advantage of me on Karnos? Been thinking about that ever since Karnos mentioned it. He's basically stolen what I've been saying about Karnos and presented it as his own, perhaps to get me to keep going.

Saru is basically saying his claim that thor was copying his arguments wasn't true. He says this despite saying in his following post:

No, I thought Karnos was scum for maybe a couple of days. But recently, I've thought about why Thor is basically taking up my argument and trying to use it against Karnos.

Like I'm not ego-tistic, upon re-read, I can see me being superficial in my arguments against Karnos. I don't feel great about Karnos, but I feel even worse about Thor right now.

As for what arguments, basically everything. The part about Karnos being hypocritical based on the iron townread and the exception and all that. He's just more articulate with them.

If he was rereading the thread, why didn't he notice that thor wasn't copying his argument? Something doesn't add up here.

[PenguinPower]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

The whole back-and-forth between you and Thor is getting to be obnoxious. Who is scum outside Thor?

[Saru]

If he was rereading the thread, why didn't he notice that thor wasn't copying his argument? Something doesn't add up here.

I never said I re-read the entire thread. I was talking about looking back at my own posts. Look at 519 again. I say "upon re-read, I can see

me

being superficial in my arguments against Karnos."

You're right, something doesn't add up here, and that's your argument against me lol.

[bji]

OK so I read all 40 pages. Mostly all I got was buyer's remorse, but I do have a few clear(ish) thoughts:

- The day 1 lynch was piss-poor in my opinion. For all of the accusations flying around of players not basing their reads on demonstrably credible reasoning, the idea of lynching a lurker on Day 1 because "he appears to be active elsewhere on the site" is utterly ridiculous. I mean how is not playing the game any more scum than it is town? Would scum really be so obvious as to avoid play like that? Bad bad wagon. So I will have to analyze that wagon and how it went down a little more clearly on a second more focused read, because I think I might be able to get some good reads from that.

- I tend to look for subtle interactions more than obvious ones. Sure some people have put forth dumb theories or sometimes have not been entirely self-consistent in their reasoning, but that stuff is just as likely to happen for town as for scum. I don't find the argument that "X must be scum because I defeated X's position on Y" particularly compelling. Regarding subtle stuff, I find aronagrundy's posts and votes to repeatedly tingle my spidey-senses, I feel like there is alot of subtle maneuvering there. I'll provide more detail later in this post.

- ironstove is high on my list of interesting persons. I appreciate how he's tried to drive wagons repeatedly and all of them seemed well justified to me.

- I think Knighty Knight was lying about not having played before. His grasp of the game lingo was too strong for someone who hasn't played before. He was replaced by someone who has claimed a power role. I would tend to believe that Knightly Knight was trying to feign newbishness as a means of providing him some "space to work" with his PR, so that he could say and do seemingly dumb things that had a PR purpose, without being suspected of having a PR. For this reason, and others (mostly related to Fire Assassin's posts on the PR subject themselves), I believe that Fire Assassin is a confirmed town PR.

I have two strong town reads at the moment: Fire Assassin, and ironstove. I already explained why above.

I have one really strong scum read: aronagrundy. My reasoning here, is twofold: I generally don't like the tone of his posts, they feel a bit slimy, he feels like he is just trying to prod town along to making mislynches, more than actually scum hunting. And the quantity and timing, just seems carefully planned, he pops up just enough to guide or participate in bad wagons.

The second issue I have with aranogrundy is his voting record. It's really bad.

He spends most of post-RVS Day 1 voting Knighty Knight, whom I feel never really deserved a vote, and then jumps over to malpascp when it's clear that that wagon has momentum, happy to stay on that terrible wagon with the only two players he had previously voted for (Fire Assassin and PenguinPower). This feels very opportunistic to me.

VOTE: Aronagrundy

[aronagrundy]

FA was a sort of claimed PR and I wasn't really considering pp as scum by the time I joined the mal wagon. I can't really respond to much else you say specifically about me unless you want to give examples.

That said, why are you still discussing knight? He replaced out so he can't really respond to anything you're saying.

[aronagrundy]

Unless the second bullet point was directed to me about my case on saru? The fact that I had to spend part of day 1 and the beginning of day 2 to get info that hurt his case (when he could have just responded day 1 when I first asked him about his stuff on thor) is more worrying than him just having a weak argument.

[aronagrundy]

That said, why are you still discussing knight? He replaced out so he can't really respond to anything you're saying.

whoops, reread the stuff about FA being a pr. Surprised you brought the vote on knight as being bad specifically especially since I think he was brought to L-1.

[bji]

I can't really respond to much else you say specifically about me unless you want to give examples.

Here are some things I didn't like:

I don't have a problem with the pressure tracer is getting but I'd rather vote knight right now.

VOTE: knight

This vote was not explained well. The reasoning for a vote against Knight, previously given in post 247 does not seem significant enough to warrant this vote. Shows a preference for voting Knight (now FA, whom I have as confirmed town).

This post sticks out like a sore thumb to me compared to anything else I've seen before in the game. No real reason for voting karnos plus misrepresenting what lmk said.

I think this is a reaching post looking for justification to put a vote back on Knight.

investigate iron/lowell, protect nero, kill mal if he doesn't replace out

Not interested in gathering any more info on the person who you previously spent most of the day voting for. Just not a consistent position.

I'm aware but there were legitimate reasons for the mal wagon, he just happened to flip town. Scum would know that he was town, though, and would also know that a mal lynch would give the town almost zero information. I'll actually take back using the mal wagon as a reason against you because I think it was a good move for scum regardless of your alignment.

So if you know after the vote that a mal lynch would give town almost zero information, you must have known that before the lynch too. And yet you jumped on that wagon. Like I said, I have to analyze that wagon a little more to see who went on it and why, but the whole thing was pretty suspect to me, and you're square in the middle of it.

[Saru]

Unless the second bullet point was directed to me about my case on saru? The fact that I had to spend part of day 1 and the beginning of day 2 to get info that hurt his case (

when he could have just responded day 1 when I first asked him about his stuff on thor

) is more worrying than him just having a weak argument.

Or maybe I just missed it? Ever thought of that? Looking through your ISO, you first had a question for me about Thor in 589, which, yes, I didn't answer, but not because I was "dodging". I actually didn't see it until I just went into your ISO. The second time you ask me (which I thought was the first time) is in 710, but I couldn't answer because I wasn't around (explained this already). In fact, my last post from D1 is 682.

So, since I wasn't around, I couldn't have answered a question I didn't even know existed. To further prove my point about this, notice my very first post on D2 (811). Guess what? It was a reply to the question that you're claiming I was trying to dodge or something stupid.

Lastly, you really are making a superficial argument against me at this point. You're looking at action, but not motivation. There's no scum motivation for me to ignore your question one time and then answer it when you ask again. If anything, that only makes me look bad. You think that I think I can get away with straight up not responding to people or something? You make it sound like you asked me about Thor like 10 million times before I responded, when really, it was only twice. There's no dodging or avoiding anything there, otherwise, I'd just keep doing it, which, again, makes no sense from any perspective.

[ironstove]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

Assuming he's not scum, where do you think the other scum are? (This is assuming he is town, not assuming he is scum and asking who his potential partners are).

[PenguinPower]

You are literally parroting me. Please have an original, logical thought.

[Nero Cain]

bji, who should we have lynched d1 and why?

[ironstove]

You are literally parroting me. Please have an original, logical thought.

OH fuck you. Don't make me tilt or I will GT.