Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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Rereading nn's Day 1 I see how it could be an opportunistic vote, as #983, where nn first voted her, is a bit presumptive and is the vote putting her at L-2, but I still am not really sold on it being a bus. If that's all there was, maybe, but nn went ham in #1238 and made repeated posts trying to persuade people like Gamma not to lynch Eager. #1266 is really awkward from boring but she made a lot of awkward posts with basically everyone, and I really liked nn's response to it.
More likely faked than I originally thought? Yeah. Still less likely faked than anything Shadow did? My instinct says yes despite not having reread Shadow in awhile.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of Insight
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BlackVoid Mafia Scum
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As far as your play, Prism, while I was reading the thread as a spectator, I thought you were probably scum. I stopped reading closely somewhere near the end of D1. I remember second-guessing my original Boring-Prism-LUV scumteam guess when I saw you and Boring pushing LUV together. I wondered if he might be town being pushed by scum but he flipped scum. Boring was a very strong scumread so that remained but I wasn't sure if you were scum or if someone I was townreading was but I felt that I was most likely wrong in my initial guess. I wasn't writing everything down because I thought I might not get a chance to play because of how active everyone was.
Regarding your replace out, everyone wants to be townread for their awesome play and not because of some silly reason like saying they replaced out. But when something like that happens, as town I can't ignore it. I really don't think that if you and Boring were the scumteam and Shadow kept insisting that you be lynched back to back (even if he was a little overconfident about it), I think you'd find some way to wiggle out of it rather than decide to replace out because you got caught. But as town, I could see you in the heat of the moment thinking "that's it, I'm done with this guy" and post a replace out request.
It's not about posting an "easily retractable reason" and then rescinding it. Honestly, as scum I wouldn't even have bothered mentioning that. I haven't actually rescinded my townread on you. My feeling is still the same. The only reason I'm reading the thread is that this is 3-way lylo and it would be irresponsible to vote without thoroughly considering the possibility of you being scum.-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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If Shadow was scum, he likes to fly pretty close to the sun.
Also, his actually subbing out would never happen if he was scum.
Spoiler:
This Boring defense parallel struck me as strikingly similar. When she defends herself from both me and Shadow, her first instinct is to ask 'are you even paying attention?' 'Are you trying?'
Spoiler:
As for Prism:
The bolded in the first quote reads as helly manipulative.
He's apparently forgotten 2927, too.
Spoiler:
Yeah I'm seriously considering this path.
@BV - can you explain why you had a scum read on Prism before you entered the game?
I re-read the sub out fiasco. At the moment, it looked like Prism may have wanted to leave because of Shadow's aggressive treatment. Maybe he felt this way because he felt personally attacked - and wanted to sub out - even though he was scum?
That, coupled with the fact that Shadow was a ballsy jerky player all game, why the hell would he sub out if he were scum? The's the kind of person that would LOVE teeing off the town as scum.
Plus there's this.
You don't say this on your way out as scum. If you're scum, you're secretly happy that I'm lost because you're taking credit for confusing me. You're not going to insult me because you successfully confused me - doing so undermines any confidence you (rightly) should have derived for sending me through so many loops all game if you were scum.In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.
@BV - I think we've been scum reading each other incorrectly. I think that I'm still alive because I'm a bit of a VI (meh...) - Prism felt he could manipulate me with a hard town read on me.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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That was always my assumption and why I didn't give it serious consideration until today. CC'ing ascetic is incredibly ballsy. The only way it's possible is through scum making gratuitous use of daychat.In post 3153, nn30 wrote:If Shadow was scum, he likes to fly pretty close to the sun.
Was one of my first thoughts but it was strange to me that he had such a high ego after basically never being right. Despite his statements about "having LUV" he never voted him outside of RVS and boring had yet to flip. His ego made no sense to begin with.In post 3153, nn30 wrote:Also, his actually subbing out would never happen if he was scum.
When half the game hates you, you're going to take personal offense regardless of what you are. You're working under the assumption here that I took personal offense despite being scum but not giving the same consideration to Shadow.
I'm not seeing anything town in the first spoiler, #2294 is awful and he spent a decent amount of time trying to get me lynched over boring in #2870, #2882, #2884, and #2888. He only flipped off of you when it became apparent I wasn't budging and it's not really clear when/why he did so if he were town. His appeal to you to lynch me was basically "God you fucking noob can't you understand?" when he literally hadno reason whatsoeverto be this arrogant. He spent the whole game voting Eager, Gamma, Grendel, and you (nn), and Dierfire-and all but the last two, had flipped town when he was going on his explanationless egokick.
More importantly, why on earth would he replace out if he thought I was scum?Making scum ragequit is a townsperson's wet dream. There's no reason to take offense and replace out when the person you are pushing as scum is taking offense to you supposedly nailing them.
It's obvious he replaced out due to taking personal offense, but this ismore likely to happen as mafia, not as town. You replace out if you're feeling disrespected by the town, either as town or mafia, because you're doing what you're supposed to and they're insulting you for it, you don't replace out as town because you think mafia is flailing.
More in a sec.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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It's my telling you how to get my vote. I know that you can make the logical connection that voting me is a possibility, but why on earth would I encourage you to? I'm not going to let you bark up the wrong tree all day if it's not going to convince me of anything if you're town, it's not a game of "Keep Away"
I said it removed all doubt because I was confident it was Dierfire and anyone who reads my yesterday can see that. When it's not Dierfire, that means that yes, I do have to backtrack, because one of my townreads was completely wrong. Me being wrong doesn't mean it's time to scumread myself. This doesn't work as a defense in my favor because it's something I could do as scum too, but it's very clear that I had to know ahead of time that I would be forced to backtrack on one of these reads were I scum.In post 3153, nn30 wrote:He's apparently forgotten 2927, too.
Re: Second Spoiler
Some great quotes of boring doing the same against me:Spoiler: Especially the 3rd/4th ones-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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Every death since N1 has been a PR. When did I mastermind time to keep you alive? I could have pushed you in earlier days for a lynch but I didn't because again,In post 3153, nn30 wrote:@BV - I think we've been scum reading each other incorrectly. I think that I'm still alive because I'm a bit of a VI (meh...) - Prism felt he could manipulate me with a hard town read on me.you've been a hard townread.At some point I'm going to have to walk back one of the townreads on you/BV if I'm scum. In that scenario this three way was decidedeonsago and I've had weeks to plan it. Hard townreading anyone is a dangerous game, because of cases like this, and because of me being forced by way of being dead wrong to reconsider statements I made with certainty day/days ago.
This means a lot less because it's coming from me but after being tipped off looking for her behaving aggressively towards me, just look at the way boring interacted with me repeatedly.Spoiler: Lots of quotes
Those wound up being a little bit more than just showing her interactions with me but you get the idea. She tried pretty desperately to get me to loosen grip on her, switching even the way she was addressing me when I showed I was more willing to work with her that way (to no avail for her). This doesn't happen in a world with daychat and outlined expectations of what each other are doing.
I still think Dierfire presented a pretty good reason for why I'm town with his analysis of the LUV interactions-LUV trying to evade me and hope nobody listens rather than addressing me directly was telling. While I wound up saving boring with a Grendel lynch Day 3, I don't think any of my interactions with her/LUV were scum interactions or indicative of me bussing. Of course I'm going to think that, but this is my attempt to back that up from a more objective standpoint, whether it's successful or not.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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I also want to know how I went from "God behind a keyboard" to "Probably scum" so quickly. The replace out reasoning you gave applies better in reverse against Shadow, and is less likely to come from me as scum as BV pointed out. You didn't even look at boring's interactions with me.
Really not doing wonders for my paranoia that your townread on me was just pingponging it back to me. You've used the same phrasing but clearly have a different mindset about it, my mindset is hard to explain but when I find something incriminating with you my first instinct is to find something thatmustbalance it out or point to it being less than I think, rather than not comparing it to anything at all and taking it at surface level.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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I understand why even if it's not my favorite, I'm not disputing that it's a valid read.In post 3152, BlackVoid wrote:Regarding your replace out, everyone wants to be townread for their awesome play and not because of some silly reason like saying they replaced out. But when something like that happens, as town I can't ignore it. I really don't think that if you and Boring were the scumteam and Shadow kept insisting that you be lynched back to back (even if he was a little overconfident about it), I think you'd find some way to wiggle out of it rather than decide to replace out because you got caught. But as town, I could see you in the heat of the moment thinking "that's it, I'm done with this guy" and post a replace out request.
I realize you haven't retracted it-I'm stating why I don't townread you as strongly as I did towards the end of yesterday. You can wind up retracting your townread on me andIn post 3152, BlackVoid wrote:As far as your play, Prism, while I was reading the thread as a spectator, I thought you were probably scum. I stopped reading closely somewhere near the end of D1. I remember second-guessing my original Boring-Prism-LUV scumteam guess when I saw you and Boring pushing LUV together. I wondered if he might be town being pushed by scum but he flipped scum. Boring was a very strong scumread so that remained but I wasn't sure if you were scum or if someone I was townreading was but I felt that I was most likely wrong in my initial guess. I wasn't writing everything down because I thought I might not get a chance to play because of how active everyone was.
It's not about posting an "easily retractable reason" and then rescinding it. Honestly, as scum I wouldn't even have bothered mentioning that. I haven't actually rescinded my townread on you. My feeling is still the same. The only reason I'm reading the thread is that this is 3-way lylo and it would be irresponsible to vote without thoroughly considering the possibility of you being scum.still wind up town, and you can wind up keeping it andstill be scum. My problem with your prior post is that it seemed to forget that the first part of this was true, ie. you should expect to find the reread scummy FYPOV. I'm wary of basically recycling your old reasoning but now saying "Oh yeah but it overpowers the replace out attempt now" (whereas before it was the opposite). This is all speculative on my end-the point is that I townread you for it before, but nowI'mthe one walking it back.-
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podoboq Mafia Scum
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eagerSnake - "Fwiw mod steals pagetops while driving. Still think they wouldn't put in 2 people with ascetic?"-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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If you're town - you have to understand that it is in both of our best interests to sufficiently vet one another.In post 3157, Prism wrote:Really not doing wonders for my paranoia that your townread on me was just pingponging it back to me.
If you're scum - this vague 'quit scum reading me or else' threat isn't going to work.-
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BlackVoid Mafia Scum
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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@BVIn post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.
The above quote is the strongest reason I have to believe you're town. It's so strong that I back-tracked on my Prism town read due to it.
1) Do you feel that my reading of this quote is accurate? Why or why not?
2) If you think the above quote is a good reason to town read you, the onus is on me to earn a town read from you. I obviously have my work cut out.
For the moment I'm still interested in why you were scum reading Prism before you entered the game - I'd like to talk about that.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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That post wasn't just vetting me, it was a complete flip.In post 3161, nn30 wrote:If you're town - you have to understand that it is in both of our best interests to sufficiently vet one another.
It's again me telling you that I think you've been reflecting my own read/reasoning on you back to me, and that I want more. I've said it 3x now.In post 3161, nn30 wrote:If you're scum - this vague 'quit scum reading me or else' threat isn't going to work.-
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BlackVoid Mafia Scum
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I actually agree that I don't think Shadow would have been frustrated in quite the same manner if he were scum. I wouldn't say it's the strongest reason I've townread him. It's his general demeanor and high confidence as well as how hard and how genuinely he pushed that Eager lynch that I found most town when I didn't know his alignment.In post 3163, nn30 wrote:
@BVIn post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.
The above quote is the strongest reason I have to believe you're town. It's so strong that I back-tracked on my Prism town read due to it.
1) Do you feel that my reading of this quote is accurate? Why or why not?
2) If you think the above quote is a good reason to town read you, the onus is on me to earn a town read from you. I obviously have my work cut out.
For the moment I'm still interested in why you were scum reading Prism before you entered the game - I'd like to talk about that.
My scumread on Prism was based mostly off of his Implosion push. Contrary to most of the game, I thought Implosion was not only town but one of the few voices of sanity that was making sense in a chaotic game. I looked at any case on him negatively and at some points, even wondered if Zoronos was hamming it on pointlessly complaining about Implosion writing words but not saying much - when in reality, he was saying a lot of good stuff. But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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@Prism - if I'm the last remaining scum and I read this from a townie:In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't eventryto consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.
I'd say 'yeah mean, I'm town look at me! oooohhhh look how scummy BV is!'In post 3149, Prism wrote:In post 3148, Prism wrote:The only thing scummy from BV so far to me is what I stated above so this 3 way is a lot more about either convincing me you're town or convincing me Shadow showed he was scum.
And then I'd take that check and cash it at the bank for a free Win.
By creating my best scum case on you, I've taken that olive branch and thrown it to the ground. I'm taking the path of least resistance and, frankly, you should be town reading me for it.
Your above quote DOES mean that if I wanted to I could have taken your vote on BV for granted. I didn't do that.
Take a look at my cases on Dierfire, Grendel, and Zoronos. This behavior has been my MO all game. You just never noticed beccause my case-building never landed on you.In post 3166, Prism wrote:To flip this back, if you're town, you're not realizing that my vote is not a given in your favor. That post didn't eventryto consider me as town, which is weird as fuck for someone who supposedly shared my sentiment that you had to be town.
@BV - Take a look back at Prism's ISO. His first post of the game 488 is a vote for Boring, then his second post of the game (591) contains a weak walk back on his scum read of Boring, possible FoS on LUV, and a vote for Implosion.
For him to enter the game, peg two scum in the way that he did, and end up on the Eager wagon (1042) is bizarre.
He began D3 with a fairly strong scum read on Boring (2278). Yet, directly following that vote, he spends 2336 a lot 2338 of time 2421 and energy 2423 on other people 2472 until finally he switches over to Grendel 2545.
The chain of posts I just linked to were in chronological order starting with his vote for Boring in 2278 and ended with his vote on Grendel in 2545.
For somebody who felt strong enough to vote for Boring, he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to gather votes onto her. He mostly just argues with other people about unrelated things.
This line of play could obviously come from town. But... the more I read it the more it feels scummy to me.
@Town!Prism - don't take this as a sleight against you. I'm doing my due dilligence here.
@Town!BV - don't let your conf!bias goggles obscure what I'm trying to put in front of you. Is this case on Prism really bad? Or are you discounting it because you're scum reading me?-
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BlackVoid Mafia Scum
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This seems to be the reason you did it though. I think you wanted the "why would nn30 go for Prism if he were scum rather than try to get his vote?" cred.In post 3167, nn30 wrote:you should be town reading me for it.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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I disagree strongly on the Shadow replace out point. I didn't really think that much of it until nn brought it up but after chewing on it for the past few days it makes less and less sense for me as for why he replaced out if he were town.In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:I actually agree that I don't think Shadow would have been frustrated in quite the same manner if he were scum. I wouldn't say it's the strongest reason I've townread him. It's his general demeanor and high confidence as well as how hard and how genuinely he pushed that Eager lynch that I found most town when I didn't know his alignment.
If he's town who thinks he's nailed the scum he's got scum flailing and even trying to replace out out of frustration with him. While I wasn't the only one hounding him, nn was too, it's apparent based off the followup post that he did it with me in mind.
His post itself is completely bullshit. It's possible he was really that delusional but who on earth reads Shadow's ISO and agrees with this conclusion:
Some highlights of Shadow's humble play:In post 2890, Shadow_step wrote:I can't take this constant misrep and insult of my play when I'm not being arrgant or cocky at all. I can't help it if people perceive it that way.In post 2748, Shadow_step wrote:Don't want to start a dick measuring contest, but I'm better than you at Mafia. And nowhere near useless as shit. Get your head out of your ass.
And the post nn keeps referring to, comingIn post 2882, Shadow_step wrote:
Why are you so horrible at seeing the obvious.
Gawd I hate newbies.right afterexplaining how he hasn't been arrogant at all all game:
There was again 0 reason for him to ever be this arrogant as town. He never voted or led on mafia, being on town wagon after town wagon. He spent the whole game tunneling nn, taking eons to switch.In post 2891, Shadow_step wrote:Also, playing with clueless newbies like nn isn't really thrilling either.
It is again possible that he really was this delusional/forgetful about his own statements, but given the context of the replace out I'm finding it unlikely. He's nailed me in his eyes, he's got me flailing, why replace out? Why is he takingso much offenseto something scum is saying to discredit him? Why is he even this arrogant to begin with?
He obviously thought he was doing his job and doing it very well and getting trashed for it. He wasn't doing his job well all game unless he was mafia, and thinking he was doing well at that instant just makes replacing out make less sense. Possible explanations for doing this as scum are 1. Feeling prideful because as scum he would be doing a great job and was just getting trashed for it, which grates on any player 2. Recognizing he was ruining the game for me and taking trying to piss me/nn off too far. I imagine it's a bit of a combination but probably moreso #1 if the Shadow/BV slot is scum.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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I can't remember exactly what it was that pinged me on Implosion because it was so long ago but in general I'm very wary of making sense as being a towntell. Implosion was noticeably competent, and a lot of his posts were reaching vastly different conclusions from my own or making distinctions that I didn't agree with. The one that I most remember is that he scumread someone for inconsistency even when that inconsistency was much more likely from a town perspective-and later he affirmed that inconsistency itself wasn't a scumtell. He was rational and is good at the game, but neither of those decided his role PM, and everyone else was giving him largely a free pass for those things.In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:My scumread on Prism was based mostly off of his Implosion push. Contrary to most of the game, I thought Implosion was not only town but one of the few voices of sanity that was making sense in a chaotic game. I looked at any case on him negatively and at some points, even wondered if Zoronos was hamming it on pointlessly complaining about Implosion writing words but not saying much - when in reality, he was saying a lot of good stuff.
This isn't consistent with what you said when you first replaced in:In post 3165, BlackVoid wrote:But most people had other reasons for me thinking they were town. Prism didn't have that. He replaced into a lurky slot and made pushes I didn't like D1. D2, he started making a lot more sense. The LUV push was what eroded my scumfeels for him.
Your reaction to nn is what I expect out of you as both alignments.In post 2899, BlackVoid wrote:I was scumreading Prism all the way up until he said he was going to replace out. I don't think scum would ever do that out of frustration from being caught. It's just poor sportsmanship especially if Shadow had called the scumteam. I get that this may be a controversial reason to have a read but Prism's almost replacing out pretty much confirms him as town for me. But I'm making a note to ISO him just to be sure.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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It isn't the reason I did it though.In post 3168, BlackVoid wrote:
This seems to be the reason you did it though. I think you wanted the "why would nn30 go for Prism if he were scum rather than try to get his vote?" cred.In post 3167, nn30 wrote:you should be town reading me for it.
PLUS
I had no need to do it. A scum!Nn30 wouldn't need to take this unconventional tact to win the game.
I'd have just tunneled you into the ground after what Prism told me in 3149-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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This isn't accurate.In post 3169, Prism wrote:He spent the whole game tunneling nn
D1 he had me as basically conf!town.
It was only after I started to get pissed at his arrogance did he start suspecting me as scum.-
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nn30 Mafia Scum
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