Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[EccentricLemon]

Hey everyone I guess.

[EccentricLemon]

VOTE: Agent Sparkles
Never trust anyone with "Agent" in their name. Probably a double crosser.

[EccentricLemon]

UNVOTE: Agent Sparkles

VOTE: Guilty Lion
Because all the cool people voted for him

[EccentricLemon]

I see you have missed me, but I guess that fact that no one else voted for me is a good sign.

I still stand by my vote since I have not received any new information about GuiltyLion and no other posts have convinced me about the scumminess of any other player.

[EccentricLemon]

Most of the people in this game are newbies, and I think some of you are reading too far into everything. Then again, I tend to be the kind that likes to wait a while before making any decisions and am a newbie myself.

I don't think nancy is consciously attempting to prove her innocence and at this point, I lean toward the fact that she's just more outspoken and trying to incite conversation. Personally, I don't think what she's said is enough to incriminate her.
However, at this stage of the game, everyone is suspicious and outspoken people tend to draw more suspicion. Which is to say while I don't believe nancy is attempting to divert attention, I'm not completely certain of her innocence as well.

I voted for GuiltyLion hoping to receive some information from him or other players discussing him but I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a lot of debate going on about him. Also as soon as people started voting for him, he hasn't posted much. Which seems a little shifty to me, like he's lying low and letting it blow over. I mean, I don't know his personal life or playing style so I might be wrong.

The fact that Jae and AgentSparkles haven't voted against nancy and are trying to get information instead of straight up voting for her kind of tips me toward assuming they are probably town. However, Jae is a seasoned player and that makes me trust them less.

Again, this is only my speculation from what I've seen.

[EccentricLemon]

Also, hey Titus.

[EccentricLemon]

Also hello bowdown.

[EccentricLemon]

If a person gets voted up, it's more likely people are going to discuss them. My vote wasn't a hammer or anything. That was my logic on what would happen. But since that didn't happen and doesn't seem like it's going to happen, UNVOTE: GuiltyLion. I was just stating my purpose and my suspicions so that people can use them to draw conclusions, I'm not actually accusing anyone.

[EccentricLemon]

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and might have even hurt me down the road.

I meant to add in #68 that I've been pressed for time, so I may not have read each post as carefully as I hoped to.

I said I'm not trying to accuse anyone. I unvoted because there wasn't any reason to keep my vote there. I personally don't see any point to random voting unless it generates discussion, which I understand is why it's encouraged. I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

[EccentricLemon]

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and

might have even hurt me down the road

.

What do you mean by this? Why did you say it?

I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Why not be accusatory?

Well keeping my vote for GuiltyLion if I was trying not to be belligerent would have been a bad move because it would seem like I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Which is not what I'm going for. I'm not sure if I'm articulating what I'm trying to say correctly. I'll try to elaborate if my explanations don't make any sense.
We all know that at this point, everyone's basically out for themselves so there's no harm I think in pointing out that I did it in self-preservation.

I don't want to be accusatory because a mistake will likely make me seem scummier. If my aggressive actions get him hanged and he turns out to be town, people are going to come after me because I'm already suspicious. I mean, it seems like everything I say is making me more and more suspicious anyway.
Also I'm a newbie and I'm still learning how the game works and I don't want to try anything too (emphasis on the too) risky until I've had some experience. I'm seeing that posting what I said that early was a bad idea (?).

@GL, I've never been a fan of p.1, baseless gut, having opinions prior to the game is noobscummy to me.

I never said anything that would allude to me having opinions prior to the game. At least I don't believe so. Attack me all you want for that, but I think I made it pretty clear that all of my observations are pretty nebulous but have at least some sort of basis in what people have said.

[EccentricLemon]

Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars.

I haven't been able to find a good image, before anyone starts interrogating me. I tend to be very picky with stuff like avatars. If I were trying to blend in, I just wouldn't post and hope people forgot about me.

I think nancy is doing the same thing I am in trying to be cautious--it IS the first day--but still stirring up conversation. She hasn't changed her vote for a bit, so I take that she isn't actively accusing anyone but more passively pointing out things she finds suspicious.
However, she has some experience with forum mafia, even if it is only a bit, and I wouldn't precisely consider her a newbie. She seems like she knows what she's doing.

My experience with forum mafia - I've modded 1 mafia and participated in 1 mafia on another non-mafia forum (this activity is ongoing). I've also read Vi's Jailbreak Mini and a small percentage of the material on mafiascum wiki, but neither of those would really count as "experience". Non-forum mafia - I played the party game as a child, and I joined up on EM 2-3 months ago. (I recognize kentofan from there, heh.)

In all, someone did say that the more aggressive Town is, the more successful they're going to be (sorry, can't find it in the thread) and I think that's what she's going for.

I'd also like to point out that tojam did accuse me pretty harshly about baseless gut accusing and having opinions prior to the game, both of which I don't think I am guilty of. Could be a sign of skimming or just me being an idiot again.

[EccentricLemon]

Also, thank you Jae, that was really helpful.

[EccentricLemon]

I was talking about nancy and GuiltyLion

I'm so sorry, I misread that GL as an EL. My bad. Sorry I called you out on it.

EccentricLemon has been awfully quiet

I just got home from school plus a 5 hour meet. Just to clarify.

My take on Titus' vote is that if she is scum, she is trying to jump on the bandwagon to further people's distrust of me, since I'm already suspicious. If Titus is town, she might perceive me as a real threat.
However, I am concerned about the lack of explanation past:

VOTE: EccentricLemon
My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

and

VOTE: EccentricLion
Gut

We're already into some good discussions and there's quite a lot to base a reason off of. I've said quite a bit and so have other people. Just saying "Gut" seems a bit weird if you ask me.

[EccentricLemon]

Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a

vote toejam

because gross.

Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.

Hey, GuiltyLion, you there?

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I don't know how this is for everyone else, but to me, the lack of substance in Titus' posts weirds me out. To me, it feels like what someone would post if they are only going through the motions of playing the game. I don't know if this is how she plays all the time, since she seems like a pretty experienced player. I think Jae or someone did mention that they played against them before and killed her only to find out she was town, which leads me to believe this is just how she plays. (is this metagaming?)
What's especially weird, though, is that the first question in post 127 is asking GL what his opinion is on something that he had just answered two posts before and the third question just seems irrelevant.

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

[EccentricLemon]

You just contradicted yourself by saying that nancy is playing passively, and then saying that she's playing aggressively. Which one is it?

It's poor wording.
I meant in that situation she wasn't aggressively trying to get someone lynched. She wasn't lobbying for someone to get hanged, she was pointing out a detail that bothered her. If you notice, she's one of the most active users in terms of posting and calling people out. I think you can call that aggressive in terms of overall strategy. She's playing aggressively but she wasn't actively accusing anyone (hence that she hadn't changed her vote) at the time.

That being said, it seems unnatural that even a careful townie would be this paranoid. Also, you claimed it would make you look bad if Guilty was lynched because of your actions, but why would you even need to worry about that? He wasn't going to be killed because of an RVS vote.

I'd like to know why anyone having a "knowledgeable tone" is a problem in the first place. Does looking ignorant make people towny?

Baseless paranoia. Personal reasons. Not something I'm willing to discuss further. It'll go away as the game progresses. I don't even know why I included that.
Having a knowledgeable tone could point to scum because the scum is supposed to be the informed minority (because they know who is town and who isn't, and they are able to communicate outside of the group) and the town the uninformed majority (because they aren't certain who the other town are and who is the scum). Implying the you have more knowledge than what can be reasonably deduced from what has been previously said, especially on the first day, is therefore usually a scumtell.

That being said, I agree with the point that it's hard to tell when Jae is in teacher mode and when they are in player mode.
Jae, since you have a lot of experience with this game, it can seem at times that you're blurring these lines on purpose, so it wold be nice if you were clearer when you're switching between the two. I would hate if that were the case.

[EccentricLemon]

Hi revan

[EccentricLemon]

I'm still here, don't worry. I just haven't formulated anything constructive since my last post.

[EccentricLemon]

It seems to me that Jae is frustrated with how their status as IC makes people want to follow their decisions instead of making their own. It's difficult for Jae to tell who is sheeping them because they're a newb and who's sheeping them because they're scum trying to blend in.
A scum wouldn't get frustrated with lack of information because a scum would already have all the information regarding who is scum and who is town.

This wouldn't bother me if more people were sheeping the IC, however. I think tojam and Titus are sheeping, but not bowdown, nancy, Agent Sparkles, or GuiltyLion--who make up the majority of active players. All of them have responded in some way to what Jae has offered, often critically. I know Jae doesn't think I'm sheeping or at LEAST is pretty confident I'm town. (In #88, Jae responds to my comment with advice rather than critique, leading me to believe they think I'm a noob town). Therefore, I don't think there's any need to the frustration Jae is expressing because there's plenty of information available.

[EccentricLemon]

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae. I need to go look through posts for some more solid evidence. I'll get back to you on that.

Titus and tojam's interactions are very limited. It's hard to tell what they think of each other but the lack of communication between them I think reveals quite a lot.
I think this interaction in particular is really scummy, especially on tojam's part:

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

It feels very forced. There's no reason to answer to Titus' post in this situation, since the original comment is clearly geared toward GuiltyLion. It seems to me like tojam is trying to cover up the lack of interaction between him and Titus.
The other thing wrong with tojam's reaction is "Can't say I've cared much about your posts." Once again, seems like forced interaction because that statement contributes absolutely nothing.

I think #56 also feels forced, especially since it was never brought up again by either of them.
These are the only two interactions between the two of them that I could find, which is also quite disconcerting. Not having anything to say about someone is fine, but saying stuff for the sake of saying it rather than furthering discussion is not.

I can say I'm still a bit on the fence about Titus. She provides much less information in her posts than tojam, so I can't tell if she's just less involved with the game or if she's trying to cover up the fact that she already knows what we're trying to figure out. #132 really sealed the deal for me on tojam, however.

[EccentricLemon]

Now that I think about it more, it is a bit strange that both mafias would act the same way. Especially since both of them aren't noobs. I'm pretty sure at least one of them is scum, though. Just judging by the aloofness I'm perceiving from them. And I think it's more likely that tojam would be scum if that were the case.

[EccentricLemon]

CITRUS INFUSION

(we're allowed to use color, right? Just not blue?)

I'm probably not going to be available much from now until Friday. I have a lot of stuff coming up. I'll try to post, I let Cakez know in case I can't post for more than two days.

What I have to say is that I found myself agreeing with Revan a lot when he first started posting. I can't tell if it's because we think in similar, non-linear ways or if he's using my opinions to hide behind. I especially find it evident here:

Page 4 is read!

A lot of what JaeReed is posting seems very simple and easily producible, sub-par with what I would expect out of an IC.

Titus is obviously scum. Insincere questioning, and posts seem to be coming from someone that has the motivation to distract town.

VOTE: Titus

Spoiler:

That's kind of a harsh accusation for someone who just started reading the thread, especially by page 4. I think I was the first person to openly argue for Titus being scum, with my post in #133, and "incincere questioning" and "motivation to distract the town" seem to me an awful lot like what I tried to argue. That post was on page 6, however, so I'm making a bit of a stretch here, which would require Revan to be lying straight out of the gate, which I doubt he would do.
I'm finding it hard to keep up with his posts, but that's what I get because his thoughts are very disjointed, like mine, which I see in #209, where Revan asks for explanation about why people find my "speech patterns funny":

Titus what makes Lemons's speech patterns funny? Are these patterns indicative of scum?

The feeling of agreement has steadily left me as the conversation progressed. I don't know if that's a good thing or not yet.
If he was leaning against my posts for information because we seem to have similar mindsets, he seems to be floundering now, which also confuses me because that seems like a serious mistake if you're a scum, even a newbie scum.

In all, it seems like Revan is a new player and the whole disjointed conversation thing could be nervousness, which I can relate to. I'm going to say it's a no-read for me right now, but I would advise Revan to get himself together and try to follow a more linear and coherent train of thought.

ElectricLemon's phrasing suggests she knows that nancy is town. In 68, she says nancy isn't trying to "prove her innocence", why not say she is not trying to appear town? Minor, but it caused me to want more of a look.

EL also makes a big deal about how he's not pushing anyone, as if sbe doesn't want to upset anyone. Her "push" if you can call it that, fades when "the cool kids" unvote. She makes a big deal about how she's not accusing anyone.

Then, she throws a comment that me playing quieter means that there's a 1 v 1 with conftown.

Spoiler:

Since you're going way back to post #68, I'm going to ask if you expect a newbie to act in a different way?
I was being voted up pretty early on day one, and yeah that was a bit distressing because it felt to me at times that it was because I insinuated that the wrong person was scum. It's a learning process, and I was learning by imitation. I'm starting to get the hang of it a bit more.
I don't agree with your assertion that the phrase "to prove her innocence" is indicative of knowledge about her alliance. In fact, I'd argue that the phrase "trying to appear town" is more indicative of knowledge of nancy's alignment than what I had said.
By "her "push" fades when "the cool kids" unvote, do you mean that I haven't followed up on post #133, where I accused you of acting scummy? I'd like to argue that my vote on toejam was pretty independent, considering that when bowdown unvoted, my vote stayed. tojam hasn't provided me with any new evidence and even made a claim to a role, which was quite uncalled for. I personally can't say that that's convinced me of his innocence.
I don't understand what you mean by that last sentence. Are you referring to #133? If so, I was talking about the quality of your posts rather than the quantity. Can you explain why you posted the four questions you did? What did you learn from them being answered? What is your take on tojam answering them, but only answering half?

Spoiler: Nancy's #180 Quote Wall

How is lemon reading like town unable to towntell to you?
Do you find taking someone to L-1 to be inherently scummy?
Do you believe any person who hammers or threatens to hammer early in the game is likely to be scum for it?

- Because I think the apparent scumminess of her behavior is better explained by her being new. She looks like she's trying to be a good townie and doing a poor job of it, rather than like she's trying to masquerade as a townie and doing a poor job of it. Is that a bad reason for that read? Should we lynch someone who behaves scummy and if they're Town let that be a lesson to them?
- Not inherently, but when there isn't a strong scum read on the player (I think some of the votes were RV also?) then it's suspicious?
- Only in this situation, but it would depend on how she flipped. If Townie, scummy, if Mafia, not. How prevalent is bussing on mafiascum? I can't stand it personally but I don't exactly have a finger on the meta here

- Always aim to win. If you think someone is town and you're town then it's not in your best interest to lynch them. I don't believe it's a bad reason but can you show me some examples of where you believe she's showing newbtown over newbscum?
- I know many absolutely love flashwagons to L-1 in RVS. Anti-town does not necessarily mean scum (although it quite often can!) so it's better to look at the motivation for such an action. For instance, are they openly encouraging a hammer so as to place pressure on the person who got wagoned? Are they being passive about it and making a show of telling people not to hammer and to wait for reactions? Both instances can be personality tells, but I've found the ones more likely to encourage a hammer (which you'd see as anti-town because the person could just claim and they might be a PR, or someone might actually use that as an excuse to hammer without a claim) tend to be town wanting to force the game out of RVS by having the person being wagoned start scumhunting off their wagon as soon as possible, where the ones making a big show about being pro-town are negating some of the pressure the person being wagoned would feel, and might actually be scum.
- Some players will hard bus often, others (Thor comes to mind) will never bus. I think the majority like to switch it up to be unpredictable. As far as whether scum or town are more or less likely to hammer depending on the person's alignment...I don't *think* there's any hard and fast rule to it? Granted, VCA isn't exactly my specialty and there *is* someone here for whom it is... I have performance anxiety mentioning any of it around Titus for that reason =P She might have more solid opinions on that than me.

I can say... Generally in a newbie as scum you don't want to bus, and especially so early on. It's 7 town vs 2 scum, and town are guaranteed in any setup to have at least one PR. Not to mention it draws the win out until later in the game, so you have to spend more time dodging people re-evaluating you and PRs potentially clearing other townies or checking you.

The issue with my read is that it's so subjective. Depending on how I choose to interpret it, I'm sure I could take nearly any of her posts to be either newbscum or newbtown. Reading her as Town feels like giving her the benefit of the doubt and at times second-guessing myself. Reading her as scum feels like I'm being overly critical. Either way I read her, I often feel like I'm justifying my read by assuming that it's true, which sucks super much.

I see you have missed me, but I guess that fact that no one else voted for me is a good sign.

I still stand by my vote since I have not received any new information about GuiltyLion and no other posts have convinced me about the scumminess of any other player.

Newbscum, because it doesn't seem towny to be ready/able to be convinced of someone's guilt without even being out of RV. The first line could also be hinting at this - the fear that people could somehow inherently know that she was scum and bw her to death. Newbtown, because she is expressing concern about scumhunting (even if she isn't actively doing anything about it yet) and isn't losing her cool about getting votes.

Most of the people in this game are newbies, and I think some of you are reading too far into everything. Then again, I tend to be the kind that likes to wait a while before making any decisions and am a newbie myself.

I don't think nancy is consciously attempting to prove her innocence and at this point, I lean toward the fact that she's just more outspoken and trying to incite conversation. Personally, I don't think what she's said is enough to incriminate her.
However, at this stage of the game, everyone is suspicious and outspoken people tend to draw more suspicion. Which is to say while I don't believe nancy is attempting to divert attention, I'm not completely certain of her innocence as well.

I voted for GuiltyLion hoping to receive some information from him or other players discussing him but I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a lot of debate going on about him. Also as soon as people started voting for him, he hasn't posted much. Which seems a little shifty to me, like he's lying low and letting it blow over. I mean, I don't know his personal life or playing style so I might be wrong.

The fact that Jae and AgentSparkles haven't voted against nancy and are trying to get information instead of straight up voting for her kind of tips me toward assuming they are probably town. However, Jae is a seasoned player and that makes me trust them less.

Again, this is only my speculation from what I've seen.

Newbscum, because she looks like she's trying to subtly dissuade people from reading her as scum (see how I'm assuming scum here in order to make the read?), because of the wording "prove her innocence" (is that a slip or an example of reading scum because assuming scum?), because of her readiness to make townreads on little evidence, and because her automatic stance is distrust (towards Jae). Newbtown, because she looks like she's trying to direct people's arguments away from over-analysis and towards more useful things and is at least making an attempt at scumhunting.

If a person gets voted up, it's more likely people are going to discuss them. My vote wasn't a hammer or anything. That was my logic on what would happen. But since that didn't happen and doesn't seem like it's going to happen, UNVOTE: GuiltyLion. I was just stating my purpose and my suspicions so that people can use them to draw conclusions, I'm not actually accusing anyone.

Newbscum, because wishy-washy, defensive, seemingly inconsistent (see 73), and trying to stay on people's good sides and not attract attention. Newbtown, because according to her stated logic her behavior does make sense, and her behavior is at least consistent in terms of being afraid of doing anything wrong.

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and might have even hurt me down the road.

I meant to add in #68 that I've been pressed for time, so I may not have read each post as carefully as I hoped to.

I said I'm not trying to accuse anyone. I unvoted because there wasn't any reason to keep my vote there. I personally don't see any point to random voting unless it generates discussion, which I understand is why it's encouraged. I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Newbscum, because inconsistent in her reads, bad scumhunting, and trying to deflect attention. Newbtown, because her scumminess is explainable by a fear to do anything wrong and general clumsiness, which is consistent. (And yet again, giving her the benefit of the doubt.)

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and

might have even hurt me down the road

.

What do you mean by this? Why did you say it?

I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Why not be accusatory?

Well keeping my vote for GuiltyLion if I was trying not to be belligerent would have been a bad move because it would seem like I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Which is not what I'm going for. I'm not sure if I'm articulating what I'm trying to say correctly. I'll try to elaborate if my explanations don't make any sense.
We all know that at this point, everyone's basically out for themselves so there's no harm I think in pointing out that I did it in self-preservation.

I don't want to be accusatory because a mistake will likely make me seem scummier. If my aggressive actions get him hanged and he turns out to be town, people are going to come after me because I'm already suspicious. I mean, it seems like everything I say is making me more and more suspicious anyway.
Also I'm a newbie and I'm still learning how the game works and I don't want to try anything too (emphasis on the too) risky until I've had some experience. I'm seeing that posting what I said that early was a bad idea (?).

@GL, I've never been a fan of p.1, baseless gut, having opinions prior to the game is noobscummy to me.

I never said anything that would allude to me having opinions prior to the game. At least I don't believe so. Attack me all you want for that, but I think I made it pretty clear that all of my observations are pretty nebulous but have at least some sort of basis in what people have said.

Newbscum, because the comment on bussing GL has no context that I can see, because it potentially displays a knowledge of GL's alignment (worried about being on a bw against a townie or worried about bussing a partner?), has an exaggerated sense of how suspicious she is. Newbtown because again, her behavior is consistent with being afraid of doing something wrong, of being in the spotlight when she's not sure what to do, because her scumminess is still explainable as her just being very clumsy.

Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars.

I haven't been able to find a good image, before anyone starts interrogating me. I tend to be very picky with stuff like avatars. If I were trying to blend in, I just wouldn't post and hope people forgot about me.

I think nancy is doing the same thing I am in trying to be cautious--it IS the first day--but still stirring up conversation. She hasn't changed her vote for a bit, so I take that she isn't actively accusing anyone but more passively pointing out things she finds suspicious.
However, she has some experience with forum mafia, even if it is only a bit, and I wouldn't precisely consider her a newbie. She seems like she knows what she's doing.

My experience with forum mafia - I've modded 1 mafia and participated in 1 mafia on another non-mafia forum (this activity is ongoing). I've also read Vi's Jailbreak Mini and a small percentage of the material on mafiascum wiki, but neither of those would really count as "experience". Non-forum mafia - I played the party game as a child, and I joined up on EM 2-3 months ago. (I recognize kentofan from there, heh.)

In all, someone did say that the more aggressive Town is, the more successful they're going to be (sorry, can't find it in the thread) and I think that's what she's going for.

I'd also like to point out that tojam did accuse me pretty harshly about baseless gut accusing and having opinions prior to the game, both of which I don't think I am guilty of. Could be a sign of skimming or just me being an idiot again.

Newbscum, because wishy-washy, because she reacted fearfully to my baseless avatar comment, again suggesting that she may be oversensitive to her own suspiciousness, because she appears concerned about how she should be blending in and has potentially lied in saying that she would blend in by lurking, and because she is again primarily trying to deflect attention away from herself (comments about me and it being D1). Newbtown, because her behavior is consistent in terms of being motivated by fear, and is still explainable as just clumsiness/newbishness.

I was talking about nancy and GuiltyLion

I'm so sorry, I misread that GL as an EL. My bad. Sorry I called you out on it.

EccentricLemon has been awfully quiet

I just got home from school plus a 5 hour meet. Just to clarify.

My take on Titus' vote is that if she is scum, she is trying to jump on the bandwagon to further people's distrust of me, since I'm already suspicious. If Titus is town, she might perceive me as a real threat.
However, I am concerned about the lack of explanation past:

VOTE: EccentricLemon
My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

and

VOTE: EccentricLion
Gut

We're already into some good discussions and there's quite a lot to base a reason off of. I've said quite a bit and so have other people. Just saying "Gut" seems a bit weird if you ask me.

Newbscum, because oversensitivity to her own suspiciousness and minimal effort at scumhunting. Newbtown, because surely she wouldn't be saying things like "perceive me as a real threat" if she actually were scum.

Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a

vote toejam

because gross.

Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.

Hey, GuiltyLion, you there?

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I don't know how this is for everyone else, but to me, the lack of substance in Titus' posts weirds me out. To me, it feels like what someone would post if they are only going through the motions of playing the game. I don't know if this is how she plays all the time, since she seems like a pretty experienced player. I think Jae or someone did mention that they played against them before and killed her only to find out she was town, which leads me to believe this is just how she plays. (is this metagaming?)
What's especially weird, though, is that the first question in post 127 is asking GL what his opinion is on something that he had just answered two posts before and the third question just seems irrelevant.

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

Newbscum, because she is jumping to conclusions, maybe just in order to seem to be scumhunting. Newbtown, because I believe her reaction to Titus is genuine, and she's at least trying to contribute to the scumhunt.

You just contradicted yourself by saying that nancy is playing passively, and then saying that she's playing aggressively. Which one is it?

It's poor wording.
I meant in that situation she wasn't aggressively trying to get someone lynched. She wasn't lobbying for someone to get hanged, she was pointing out a detail that bothered her. If you notice, she's one of the most active users in terms of posting and calling people out. I think you can call that aggressive in terms of overall strategy. She's playing aggressively but she wasn't actively accusing anyone (hence that she hadn't changed her vote) at the time.

That being said, it seems unnatural that even a careful townie would be this paranoid. Also, you claimed it would make you look bad if Guilty was lynched because of your actions, but why would you even need to worry about that? He wasn't going to be killed because of an RVS vote.

I'd like to know why anyone having a "knowledgeable tone" is a problem in the first place. Does looking ignorant make people towny?

Baseless paranoia. Personal reasons. Not something I'm willing to discuss further. It'll go away as the game progresses. I don't even know why I included that.
Having a knowledgeable tone could point to scum because the scum is supposed to be the informed minority (because they know who is town and who isn't, and they are able to communicate outside of the group) and the town the uninformed majority (because they aren't certain who the other town are and who is the scum). Implying the you have more knowledge than what can be reasonably deduced from what has been previously said, especially on the first day, is therefore usually a scumtell.

That being said, I agree with the point that it's hard to tell when Jae is in teacher mode and when they are in player mode.
Jae, since you have a lot of experience with this game, it can seem at times that you're blurring these lines on purpose, so it wold be nice if you were clearer when you're switching between the two. I would hate if that were the case.

Newbscum, because the lean of her comments about Mafia communication, because she is suddenly behaving differently, and because her final sentence seems disjointed. Newbtown, because her change in behavior away from being motivated by fear and aversion to attention is explainable by the game having progressed, and her feeling more comfortable as it has. (I've certainly become more comfortable since page 1.)

It seems to me that Jae is frustrated with how their status as IC makes people want to follow their decisions instead of making their own. It's difficult for Jae to tell who is sheeping them because they're a newb and who's sheeping them because they're scum trying to blend in.
A scum wouldn't get frustrated with lack of information because a scum would already have all the information regarding who is scum and who is town.

This wouldn't bother me if more people were sheeping the IC, however. I think tojam and Titus are sheeping, but not bowdown, nancy, Agent Sparkles, or GuiltyLion--who make up the majority of active players. All of them have responded in some way to what Jae has offered, often critically. I know Jae doesn't think I'm sheeping or at LEAST is pretty confident I'm town. (In #88, Jae responds to my comment with advice rather than critique, leading me to believe they think I'm a noob town). Therefore, I don't think there's any need to the frustration Jae is expressing because there's plenty of information available.

Newbscum, because of the potential hints of knowledge about Jae's alignment, and because of the consistent attention to what information scum have and how they'd use it.

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae. I need to go look through posts for some more solid evidence. I'll get back to you on that.

Titus and tojam's interactions are very limited. It's hard to tell what they think of each other but the lack of communication between them I think reveals quite a lot.
I think this interaction in particular is really scummy, especially on tojam's part:

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

It feels very forced. There's no reason to answer to Titus' post in this situation, since the original comment is clearly geared toward GuiltyLion. It seems to me like tojam is trying to cover up the lack of interaction between him and Titus.
The other thing wrong with tojam's reaction is "Can't say I've cared much about your posts." Once again, seems like forced interaction because that statement contributes absolutely nothing.

I think #56 also feels forced, especially since it was never brought up again by either of them.
These are the only two interactions between the two of them that I could find, which is also quite disconcerting. Not having anything to say about someone is fine, but saying stuff for the sake of saying it rather than furthering discussion is not.

I can say I'm still a bit on the fence about Titus. She provides much less information in her posts than tojam, so I can't tell if she's just less involved with the game or if she's trying to cover up the fact that she already knows what we're trying to figure out. #132 really sealed the deal for me on tojam, however.

Now that I think about it more, it is a bit strange that both mafias would act the same way. Especially since both of them aren't noobs. I'm pretty sure at least one of them is scum, though. Just judging by the aloofness I'm perceiving from them. And I think it's more likely that tojam would be scum if that were the case.

Noobscum, because she's quick to conclude that someone is scum on little basis, and because her behavior isn't consistent. Noobtown, because she's attempting to scumhunt.

VOTE: EccentricLemon

Spoiler: Commentary

nancy has accused me of being inconsistent several times, but the whole switching between thinking I'm a newb town and newb scum isn't consistent either. This whole post is as if you're trying to convince yourself that I'm scum rather than convince the rest of the players that I'm scum.
One of your first sentences is:

The issue with my read is that it's so subjective. Depending on how I choose to interpret it, I'm sure I could take nearly any of her posts to be either newbscum or newbtown.

I really appreciate the in-depth analysis you provided throughout most of the post, by the way, I thought it was very insightful.
However, some of the statements:

Newbscum, because inconsistent in her reads, bad scumhunting, and trying to deflect attention. Newbtown, because her scumminess is explainable by a fear to do anything wrong and general clumsiness, which is consistent.

and

Newbscum, because the lean of her comments about Mafia communication, because she is suddenly behaving differently, and because her final sentence seems disjointed. Newbtown, because her change in behavior away from being motivated by fear and aversion to attention is explainable by the game having progressed, and her feeling more comfortable as it has. (I've certainly become more comfortable since page 1.)

Are contradictory. In addition, the second to last thing you address contains exclusively commentary on scum and the last sentence contains a much more thoughtful analysis into what you believe is the evidence that points toward me being scum than the unoriginal sentence explaining why it might also be town.

she's quick to conclude that someone is scum on little basis

This I also don't agree with. I provided quite a lot of insight there, and I think I'm perfectly justified in my vote with the evidence I presented.
You said at the beginning how it's hard to read my posts because they're subjective, but then cast a definitive vote for me with no further explanation. Why? Do you have a gut feeling about me that you're trying to justify?

My question to Jae:
Why are you being so harsh with Revan when he seems to be exhibiting the same patterns of behavior as I am?
Your commentary was also really helpful, by the way. It helps me a lot to see how someone other than I interprets my posts.

I should probably go to bed at three AM, huh?

[EccentricLemon]

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

I have time for one really quick post

Titus: We're way past that. Last time that was mentioned was #82, and we're in the 300s now. Just seems a bit weird that you're pushing something that I dropped before the game gained momentum. Is there really nothing else that tells you that I could be scum?

nancy: I'd like you to please explain why your vote on me was so definite when you said at the beginning of your post that you were ambiguous about me.

You all already voted me up right at the beginning of the game, unvoted, and then started voting me up again. Just pointing that out.

[EccentricLemon]

VOTE: EL

I don't want EL in LYLO anyway

I've been feeling sympathetic toward Revan because he seems confused to me and is just trying to scumhunt ineffectively, but some of his later posts have been making me uneasy. It seems to me at this point that he's sheeping the experienced players to get town points, exhibit one ^.

I think EL is too townread to be lynched today.

Especially considering that this was posted not too long before he voted for me, it's starting to seem like he's trying too hard to appear town.

Something that I think is lost in the conversation about Lemon is that Lemon is new. I think I am the only one of the noobs with prior forum mafia/werewolf experience.

nancy had a post about her experience in forum mafia and werewolf, and there is speculation about Revan having prior experience, but he isn't exactly acting calm and composed. I've already quoted nancy's post and I have brought it up more than once I think. This is also blatantly ignoring the fact that as a complete and utter newb to forum mafia, I was being voted up super early on D1.

Let me explain what I didn't like about tojam's claim. He claimed one-shot town without much provocation. If he isn't scum, now scum knows to avoid him because he won't die the first time they attack him. Plus, now they have more clues about what other townies are in the game. It doesn't make sense to reveal this early in the game, much less give the scum that much information, which is why I didn't think it was genuine.
Now that I think about it, no one else has been trying to run him up, which makes me think no one else is the one shot town, so I'll unvote for now.

But I'd still like to point out that according to Cakez' matrix, there isn't necessarily a bulletproof town in the game at all.

UNVOTE: tojam2

Titus completely ignored my question about whether she expected a newb town to act in a different way than I did the first time I was being voted up, by the way, and I'd like an answer to that.

[EccentricLemon]

So then why the sudden turnaround?

[EccentricLemon]

Revan, you still haven't addressed why exactly you changed your mind so quickly after you said that D1 is too early to vote me up. I don't agree with Titus, I don't see how it could have been strategic. The only way I can see it as strategic is if Revan was scum trying to direct attention onto someone else and following someone who he thinks is town to seem like town himself. It's blatantly contradictory and super scummy.

To add to bowdown's post:

Sheeping the experienced players? I don't think you can say that if my top scumread is the IC.

Don't forget that you said that your top scum read was the IC and then voted for me two posts after bowdown placed his vote on me.
I'll also quote your post about not running me up, in case you forgot:

I think EL is too townread to be lynched today.

As you can see, less than 30 posts have passed between the two posts. This is just careless.

[EccentricLemon]

I'm back.

I'm getting kind of frustrated because I feel like a lot of the things I say are taken under the context of how a more experienced player would act. I'm a goddamn noob. I've literally never played forum mafia before in my life.
1) Titus' entire argument against me is the fact that I used a common terminology that I use in everyday life that happens to have a different meaning on MafiaScum.
But hey, I kept my vote on GL for a while but we're going to ignore that, right?
2) Everyone keeps telling Revan that there's no way his vote was a self save, but hey, it's working so I'd definitely like an explanation for that.
By the way, Revan, I cannot reiterate enough that the stuff you say is completely and utterly contradictory.
3) Revan's entire argument against me is "everyone's doing it, so I should too", which is what Titus accused me of doing at one point and said it was scummy.

I've already posted my opinion on Revan, so I'm going to vote for him.
VOTE: Revan

[EccentricLemon]

I'm so sorry for disappearing, I had several papers to write and other stuff came up.
I'm kind of weirded out by how dramatically the votes have changed in so little time. I fully expected to come back to see myself lynched. Is this a common thing or is this particular to the game?

I tried reading through the responses, but I really don't feel completely certain that nancy is scum. Something just keeps telling me that she might be town. I'll VOTE: nancy but only because I'm not the one hammering. I have to go to bed at this point, I have a splitting headache so consider me done posting for the day.

[EccentricLemon]

I might be awake by D1 end, but probably not because I'll be catching up on sleep.

[EccentricLemon]

EL's vote on you looks awful as well.

My reasoning for voting nancy up was a combination of a previous statement about how (I can't find the post again) someone said town can afford a mislynch at this point and the fact that I never had a definitive read on nancy. I never pushed her as a townread for me (even in that post at the beginning, I mentioned that there's still room for her to be scum), and ending the day without a lynch seemed to be a huge problem. Just because I only had one post dedicated to my read on her, doesn't mean that she was a townread for me.

All that said, it's been great playing with you, nancy. Good luck in your next game.

[EccentricLemon]

Well then. So have you found any new evidence other than my noob choice of wording?

[EccentricLemon]

Lemon, why does the fact that you weren't the hammer matter for voting Nancy?

Because it still wasn't clear that anyone else would vote, and town has a very bad chance of winning without a lynch D1. Bringing it closer to a lynch but not hammering made sense because I was leaving for the night and nancy still had time to defend herself but anyone could come in and hammer. Does that make sense?


I still really don't like the speed with which Revan shifted vote to me yesterday. It bothered me then and it bothers me now, because I still don't see a very good reason for it. Revan, could you explain why exactly you voted for me? Out of curiosity, mostly.


Titus, why are you avoiding answering my question about whether there is any other evidence that I might be scum other than the bus scenario? As far as I can see, you're still trying to lynch me for being unfamiliar with MafiaScum slang.

Do you get why some people find your word choice scummy?

I kind of see why some people may find my word choice scummy, I seem to be having trouble making coherent sentences. I think I'm doing a bit better now. It's difficult for me to see whether I'm saying stuff that makes sense. What makes sense in my head won't necessarily make sense in writing.

[EccentricLemon]

Because I'm trying to get an answer before voting because Titus won't say if she actually believes I'm scum for any other reason. If she has valid claims, I'm all for hearing them but she hasn't actually answered my question, nor has she directly refused to answer it, she's just avoiding it. I asked twice, so I'm just going to VOTE: Titus and assume there isn't anything else behind the argument.

That's paranoia right there.

How is that post in any way paranoia? I think that was one of my posts that actually made sense. I explained what I thought and why I thought it, unlike what you did right there.

[EccentricLemon]

I don't think there's any problem with Sparkles not knowing how to vote today. In any case, I wouldn't consider it a scumtell.

[EccentricLemon]

@EL: A little over-defensive but I'll consider it newbiness for now.

@AS: 2 weeks should be long enough to decide on a vote.

VOTE: Titus

Titus is at L-1, lolhammers are a scumclaim if she flips town.

What? How is this something you type in a lapse of concentration?

[EccentricLemon]

The only way you've explained why we're scum is because I used the term "throwing under the bus". Several people have already said that this is ludicrous and I've asked multiple times for further explanation.

[EccentricLemon]

That's definitely strange and scummy considering that it's already been done twice almost successfully.

That's your strawman. I highlighted many such indicators that you used, including talking like you knew people were town. You being rescued at the last second because of GL chainsawing on your behalf indicates partners. The abnormal closeness indicates partners.

5 bucks says you're the roleblocker.

How does that in any way shape or form indicate that I'm the roleblocker?
This is the only original quote I can find from you that indicates anything you've said about me. The rest of your posts are either: one post rephrasing this post or posts to the effect of "let's lynch Lemon now". There is no mention about GL arguing on my behalf indicating partners nor is there acknowledgement in your posts about agreeing with anyone else's points regarding.

ElectricLemon's phrasing suggests she knows that nancy is town. In 68, she says nancy isn't trying to "prove her innocence", why not say she is not trying to appear town? Minor, but it caused me to want more of a look.

EL also makes a big deal about how he's not pushing anyone, as if sbe doesn't want to upset anyone. Her "push" if you can call it that, fades when "the cool kids" unvote. She makes a big deal about how she's not accusing anyone.

Then, she throws a comment that me playing quieter means that there's a 1 v 1 with conftown.

If by "many indicators", you mean saying nancy was "trying to prove her innocence", which you called minor and again, using the term "bussing". I'd also like to point out that you said:

I am terrible with crumbs.

So now we have two contradictions, in one of which you say that I'm scum because there are small indicators but in the other where you say that you are awful with small indicators.

So which is it? I suggest you make a post detailing everything you think about me, no matter how obvious, because there seems to be something the rest of us are missing that you seem to have noticed but not said. Although I think this kind of behavior is really scummy, I'm definitely at least a little concerned that a seasoned player would drop something as obvious as this.

[EccentricLemon]

I can't tell if you're consciously trying to divert from the fact that you don't have much of a case or if you're just refusing to tell us something that seems obvious to you.

Spoiler: Quote Wall

Let's lynch Lemon.

Two days until deadlijne.
It's the counter.
He doesn't townread EL.

I am willing to lynch EL or GL.

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

Why doesn't it to you?

Oh wait, you're not likely town

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

So what you're saying, paraphrased, is: "It's more likely than not that EL and GL are scumbuddies because EL said she didn't want to throw GL under the bus"? Am I parsing that right?

Now can you tell me why that's not an extremely contrived, nitpicky reach of an argument? An argument which is easily defeated by the alternate explanation which I already presented in 350:

she used a word without knowing the context/meaning on MafiaScum

You're assuming:
a) EL has knowledge of what it means to "bus" someone, despite this being her first game on mafiascum
b) EL and I are partners and both scum
c) EL accidentally slipped point b) by using the terminology "bus" in the context of a) in post 82.

This is a scumcase. It's fake, illogical reasoning. They're all huge assumptions independently, and being used together in a way that no townie would push with genuine intentions. If we're flash wagoning anyone today, it's Titus.

Scared much? How cute.

A townie wouldn't know bussed if first game. If she's coached by someone, done. Either you're scum or she's buddying you imo.

Agreed, so you can vote EL scum and we are both happy.

VOTE: ELemon

Now, let's do this today.

Umm yeah, I think the team is EL and GL but I ain't trusting you that much.

Oh poor me defense never goes well EL.

I have explained repeatedly why EL and GL are scum and town just keeps screwing it up.

[EccentricLemon]

Spoiler: All my prior quotes highlighting EL and GL being scummy

VOTE: EccentricLemon

My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I'm probably butting in since you directed this at GL, but I totally missed this - where was the Freudian slip!?! I re-read your posts and can't find it!

I voted ElectricLion, aka ElectricLemon plus GuiltyLion.

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae.

I don't think this is the case.

Titus is usually the IC, so I think she's holding back a bit to not interfere with me since this is my first time playing as an IC. It's a weird shift from being an SE that I'm still getting a feel for, despite a lot of the time as an SE chiming in with theory when I've seen newbies struggling. I feel that Titus is trying to support me in that role, actually, which is probably why you get that feeling.

If not, could you point out where you think Titus has been hiding behind me in a game sense?

Partially, but I am also naked voting to see if I can trigger more of the funny speech patterns from Lemon.

I felt the same way regarding GL avoiding me. My real life is slammed, so I am going to highlight what I am seeing in Lemon.

ElectricLemon's phrasing suggests she knows that nancy is town. In 68, she says nancy isn't trying to "prove her innocence", why not say she is not trying to appear town? Minor, but it caused me to want more of a look.

EL also makes a big deal about how he's not pushing anyone, as if sbe doesn't want to upset anyone. Her "push" if you can call it that, fades when "the cool kids" unvote. She makes a big deal about how she's not accusing anyone.

Then, she throws a comment that me playing quieter means that there's a 1 v 1 with conftown.

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

As for you JaeReed, awkward =/= town. Many caught scum look for reasons to attack a read. That's what she was doing by saying we're too far along for gut. Her ISO isn't focused on determining alignment of anyone. There's a litter of ADD scattershot pushes.

Right, and those votes earlier were much more for pressure (e.g. Titus's naked vote). Votes now on Lemon are votes to lynch.

I do not vote "for pressure" as a rule. My votes are to kill or in rare instances as a warning to change behavior.

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

I have time for one really quick post

Titus: We're way past that. Last time that was mentioned was #82, and we're in the 300s now. Just seems a bit weird that you're pushing something that I dropped before the game gained momentum. Is there really nothing else that tells you that I could be scum?

nancy: I'd like you to please explain why your vote on me was so definite when you said at the beginning of your post that you were ambiguous about me.

You all already voted me up right at the beginning of the game, unvoted, and then started voting me up again. Just pointing that out.

There is no past. Just now. Time possibly determines revelance, but not whether I let things go.

Your posts are riddled with such awkward language that suggests scum and on D1 in a small game, word choice is the best evidence.

Bowdown, stop being overly protective of GL.

Revan's vote makes sense as a strategic one. It's more cause for concern if Revan didn't vote his counter.

@Nancy, ElectricLemon can be coached pregame.

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

So what you're saying, paraphrased, is: "It's more likely than not that EL and GL are scumbuddies because EL said she didn't want to throw GL under the bus"? Am I parsing that right?

Now can you tell me why that's not an extremely contrived, nitpicky reach of an argument? An argument which is easily defeated by the alternate explanation which I already presented in 350:

she used a word without knowing the context/meaning on MafiaScum

You're assuming:
a) EL has knowledge of what it means to "bus" someone, despite this being her first game on mafiascum
b) EL and I are partners and both scum
c) EL accidentally slipped point b) by using the terminology "bus" in the context of a) in post 82.

This is a scumcase. It's fake, illogical reasoning. They're all huge assumptions independently, and being used together in a way that no townie would push with genuine intentions. If we're flash wagoning anyone today, it's Titus.

Scared much? How cute.

A townie wouldn't know bussed if first game. If she's coached by someone, done. Either you're scum or she's buddying you imo.

GL, I can comment on a vote pattern for review later.

You on the other hand are trying to paint everything I do as scummy. That's the narrative sell.

I did not see a slip. I still do not. You, being a large veteran, know most so called slips are not actually slips.

That's your strawman. I highlighted many such indicators that you used, including talking like you knew people were town. You being rescued at the last second because of GL chainsawing on your behalf indicates partners. The abnormal closeness indicates partners.

5 bucks says you're the roleblocker.

(Sorry, making each quote its own quote was way too time consuming)

Spoiler: 95

"Showing off naked voting strategy" isn't the same as making a case.

Spoiler: 127

Those are questions, not making a case.

Spoiler: 141

That is a clarification for a question, not making a case.

Spoiler: 181

This seems like scumhunting, but I'll come back to this one later.

Spoiler: 252

That's not a case, that's a statement.

Spoiler: 253

I addressed this two posts ago.

Spoiler: 302

Bus thing, which has been addressed multiple times. I'd like an explanation actually for the rest of the quote. To me, it seems like you're describing someone that is struggling and not necessarily as definitively scum-aligned as you're pushing. I just want some clarification for this one. I don't really see what you're getting at here or why it's so scummy.

Spoiler: 324

You say you don't vote for pressure but that'e exactly what you did in #181.

Spoiler: 326

Here we have my awkward wording again. Once again, this doesn't bring up any new evidence than what you pointed out in #253.

Spoiler: 385

In this post, you're arguing about word slips. Up to that point, you've only pointed out two things I've said. I just pointed out a complete contradiction you made in that same time, not just a wording slip. The coached pre-game is also just a statement. It relates tangentially to what you've said, but it's not your case. That was nancy's case and there's no indication you agree with it other than it's also a post against me.

Spoiler: 406

Indicator, not a slip? Then why was your "slip" also a "slip" and not an indicator? Being certain of someone's alignment is also super scummy I think. Even if you're pushing someone else's scumminess.

Spoiler: 420

Same as above.

Spoiler: 465

That first phrase is just taunting. GL is obviously making a point, but instead of refuting it, you just taunt him. And yet you say "a townie wouldn't know bussed if first game". Yeah, it's my first game. Why is it so unlikely that I'm town?

Spoiler: 649

That's also not a case. That's just exaggeration of my case. I say you're contradicting yourself and trying to push evidence that's not actually there and so I think you're scum. Making my case seem worse than your case instead of elaborating on your case is definitely scummy. I really don't understand your position on slips either. In one post, you're pushing a slip that's not really a slip from yourself (which I also don't understand). In the other post, you're pushing something I said as a tell and explain that I could just be noob town but continue pushing it. I confused myself just by writing this.

Spoiler: 678

Here you're just summarizing what you said 300 posts ago and not bringing up any new evidence.

Revan is asking for evidence, even if you've provided it before. If you're so concerned with him voting with you, why not just give it to him?

[EccentricLemon]

I can definitely say you're more concerned with getting Revan to tune me out than finding scum. Because you aren't trying to convince him to join your push, but trying to invalidate mine.

[EccentricLemon]

I don't know where you got the notion that I'm treating Revan, tojam, or GL as town. I've definitely expressed what I see as scummy from both Revan and tojam. And I don't have a townread on GL, we just both agree that I'm a noob that worded something in a noob way. I don't see anything that tells me GL is town or scum and I'm definitely not giving him townpoints for agreeing with me. Don't put words in my mouth.

[EccentricLemon]

Just because I'm not discussing bowdown, AS, or GL at the moment, doesn't mean I think they're town. I just think they're acting less scummy than you are.

[EccentricLemon]

While your vote set things off, this has definitely been brewing for a while.

[EccentricLemon]

Revan, I really would like an explanation for your vote on Titus and then your quick changing of your vote. Or at least some explanation as to what exactly was going through your mind there. It looks more like a desperate "oh crap, that's my partner and I don't actually want them dead" to me more than anything. You don't seem to be making a lot of your own decisions, as you did something very similar yesterday.

[EccentricLemon]

Sorry, I meant tojam. I'm multitasking right now.

[EccentricLemon]

24 hours without an error

0 hours without an error

[EccentricLemon]

Titus, insulting everyone isn't going to get anyone to vote with you. That's just low. You're also being pretty arrogant right now.

As for tojam, I was definitely more confused than catching a scumtell. To me, it's not proven yet that he's town because there's a chance that there might not be a bulletproof town. I agree that the odds are small, but they're not nonexistent. That whole post was super weird and I can't wrap my head around it. I see a lot of that with tojam's posts and I'm still trying to figure out if it's just an incompatibility in playing styles.

Which kind of brings me to another point, because Titus actually pointed this out but later seems to be completely certain that there's a roleblocker. Just another inconsistency.

[EccentricLemon]

By the way, this nk does mean that scum has a roleblocker and that I am the last PR.

Yes, from your perspective. Technically, you still mathmatically could be scum. I have zero interest in lynching you though.

You acknowledged right here that tojam could still be scum and you still haven't actually said why you think I'm the roleblocker that you stated here may not even exist.
Confidence became arrogance when you started insulting people for not agreeing with something that you refused to back up, even after being asked multiple times to reiterate your argument. I asked you twice and gave you time to reply before I voted you up, Revan has asked you to multiple times. Saying no one will listen to your argument is a flat out lie.

Hello Sobolev!
I got off to a rough start, but how I'd summarize the game D1 is:
* I (Lemon) used some weird language at the beginning which resulted in me being voted up, where I got super defensive and apologetic. (You should definitely read that and make of it what you will.)
* There was quite a bit here between nancy and bowdown and JaeReed which I got a bit confused in. bowdown is the player you replaced)
* Eventually Revan joined and we started voting him up because we thought he was being inconsistent.
* The vote quickly got changed to me.
* nancy slipped a comment that seemed like it indicated that she was aware of alignment, so the vote quickly changed to her.
You should still definitely read yesterday's (game yesterday) posts, especially at the end of the game since I feel a lot was summarized there.

As for today:
* Titus has been pushing that Lemon and GuiltyLion are scumpartners for unclear reasons (again, you should read into that argument and make of it what you will, because GL, Revan, and maybe AgentSparkles seem to find it unclear)
* GL and I are pushing back, we think Titus is scum (again, make sure to read our arguments and decide on your own whether you think they are valid)
* Another topic that just came up is my general distrust in tojam (another thing to read in on, he made a claim D1, it's up to you to decide if my argument is justified or not)
* Currently it's also a bit of a question about whether not voting is keeping information away from the rest of the players (mostly between AgentSparkles and GuiltyLion)
I tried my best to make it as impartial as possible. Welcome!

[EccentricLemon]

I never said you had any intention of lynching him. I said you acknowledged that there is a chance of him being scum.

[EccentricLemon]

The vote changed to nancy fast because GL shaded Nancy and scum quick hammerred her.

I don't agree that the hammering can be described as "quick". The vote changed pretty quickly, I agree, but there was still time for nancy to defend herself. The hammer didn't come for a while. GL had stated an intent to hammer beforehand. I also made a big point where I said that I didn't want to hammer exactly because I wanted to leave nancy time to defend, because I would not be online for the rest of the game day. nancy herself admitted that she understood why people voted her:

I am stupid it was my dumb jailer assumption that got me lynched.

[EccentricLemon]

GL, I would still like to hear your response on Titus' post.

[EccentricLemon]

Sobolev, if you think lynching those three in any order would be a town win, why did you decide not to follow the wagon.
I don't have a townread on GL, don't get me wrong. I just want to hear your opinion since you're new.

[EccentricLemon]

^ that first sentence was supposed to have a question mark.

[EccentricLemon]

Can you elaborate on the reasons you decided those three were scum?

[EccentricLemon]

Before I change my vote, GL:

I've wanted to bring this up for a while, and I think now is the best time to do so.
Why exactly are you so focused on not getting me lynched? At times, it definitely seems like you know more than what's been given to you. Defending me would be quite an advantage for you assuming you are scum and I am town:
1. It would give you towncred to back a town.
2. It would clear allegations that you are scum because since everyone's been mostly looking at you in the context of my scumpartner. If I flip green, that's to your advantage.
I'm not 100% convinced that you're scum, but it seems logical to me that you definitely could be.
So I'm asking you to convince me that you have a reason for defending me that isn't scummy.

[EccentricLemon]

At the start of day 2 I made it clear I wanted EL lynched.

I don't agree that you made it clear you wanted me lynched:

VOTE: EL

Also, when he thought I directed one of my earlier questions at him that was paranoia I think.

@EL: A little over-defensive but I'll consider it newbiness for now.

@AS: 2 weeks should be long enough to decide on a vote.

VOTE: Titus

I'm not even sure how I convinced myself to do that, lapse in concentration probably.

VOTE: AS for the reasons above.

VOTE: Titus Defeatism and over-reacting to my fked up vote.

At the start of day 2 I made it clear I wanted EL lynched.

This is an extremely quick progression. If you really wanted me lynched that bad, why'd you vote AS and then Titus again instead of going back to me?
This doesn't make sense at all. You go from voting me because I seem "paranoid", to having a "lapse in concentration" and voting Titus, to voting AS for not voting, to voting Titus again because she's acting defeated and overreacting, to finally "I made it clear I wanted EL lynched".
I'm having a VERY tough time believing you're town. If you're town, you need to get your crap together because disorder only helps scum.

EL posts as if he knows everyone in the thread is town.

How on earth do I post as if I know everyone is town? In post #740, I presented a scenario where GL was scum. I've been pretty consistently distrusting of tojam. Like I said before, just because my strongest scumread is you, doesn't mean I townread everyone else.

[EccentricLemon]

I think GL's frustration is pretty genuine and I don't think I'd see something like that from scum. I'm still not 100% convinced because I've never played with GL before and I don't know how good he is at appearing town.
I'm keeping my vote on Titus because of how accusing her posts are. She doesn't support her arguments and frankly, resorts to insults. That's the complete opposite of what I expect from a townie because it's chaotic, which benefits the scum. I also went and reread the nancy lynching and I definitely wouldn't say GL was leading the push. I think it was more bowdown and Jae.

V/LA until Saturday

[EccentricLemon]

Revan, I don't see where Sobolev makes any sort of claim that she's got the game figured out. I agree that I'd prefer if she provided more evidence with her claims, but she does provide some basis for her opinions. It seems like what you're trying to do there is the same thing as Titus: try to exaggerate her claim to make it seem as ludicrous as possible so that people don't vote for you.

I've already given pretty conclusive final thoughts on Titus in post #771 and it still stands. So far everything Titus has said has supported my stance against her. I've never been against changing my opinions with new information, but the only new information I'm getting is in support of scum!Titus. My vote stays and I encourage those that haven't voted yet to reread GL's arguments and mine.

Time between those 2 quotes was 3 days, don't misrep that.

I'm not misrepresenting the fact that you claimed to have wanted me lynched and voted for basically everyone but me over the span of those three days when every little new material was being put forth.

[EccentricLemon]

Titus, I appreciate the honesty in that post. I think you got a little too frustrated before. I hope we can clear up some stuff that was said before, both on my part and on yours.

A lot of personal stuff has come up lately, so I'll be posting a bit less from now on. Sorry guys.

[EccentricLemon]

You've made one post about EL's phrasing. I don't think you realize the reason you can't convince people to join you on EL is because you're not making a case.

What's changed between now and then?

[EccentricLemon]

Revan, me and Nancy. All of us are town. At some point, you have to accept that you are wrong.

There is definitely no certainty that Revan or you are town, and this is definitely not something a town would say. I really don't like this certainty of alignment. The only person that is proven town out of this list is nancy and the only person that would make this kind of statement is a scum convinced of the towniness of the players around them and trying to lump themselves into the same category.

[EccentricLemon]

I also didn't have any counters with nancy. Jae had a townread on me, and they were proven town.

You basically came into the game trying to get me up, and I didn't start pushing you until D2 began. If you decide to use my #119 against me, think again, because as a result of that post I voted Tojam, and my vote was parked on him for quite a bit. I didn't vote you up once until D2.
I'd also like to point out that you never had any reads on nancy but when it became clear that nancy was dead, you suddenly jumped on:

I'd bet my game life on Nancy being town ftr.

GL hammered the post after.

The only time you voted for anyone else but me was fairly recently, and that was GL, who you've also been pushing since D1 along with me.

If that doesn't scream scum, I don't know what does.

[EccentricLemon]

I feel like Titus' insults are also a poor attempt to seem like frustrated town.

[EccentricLemon]

Town solving the game should result in more certainty, not less. If your IC was here, they'd tell you that. You shot her though.

If you were actually scumhunting, you'd explore options that aren't me. The vast majority of your posts are either "lynch Lemon" or "Lemon's evidence sucks" without actually explaining in a valid way why my evidence sucks. I'm completely for arguing and debating, but you just don't provide anything but assurances you're town and claims that I'm scum.

It's really, really strange that I was your first vote and you've spent the entire game since then trying to lynch me.

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt about the whole insult thing, because I know you're busy IRL, but your reply to my willingness to start fresh and your continued insults instead of evidence have completely solidified the fact that you're just desperately clinging to the hope that you come off as frustrated town.

[EccentricLemon]

I'm going to start reading what I missed in a bit. Sorry about the absence. I'll have a post out soon.

[EccentricLemon]

Sorry guys, my team made states so my days off from practice aren't days off anymore.

Spoiler: Tojam

tojam seems to be pushing me because I pushed him when he was "conftown". First off, he wasn't confirmed, just highly likely. I don't think it's wrong to have doubts about your claim. I've outlined why in these posts:

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

I follow up on this in #170.

Let me explain what I didn't like about tojam's claim. He claimed one-shot town without much provocation. If he isn't scum, now scum knows to avoid him because he won't die the first time they attack him. Plus, now they have more clues about what other townies are in the game. It doesn't make sense to reveal this early in the game, much less give the scum that much information, which is why I didn't think it was genuine.
Now that I think about it, no one else has been trying to run him up, which makes me think no one else is the one shot town, so I'll unvote for now.

But I'd still like to point out that according to Cakez' matrix, there isn't necessarily a bulletproof town in the game at all.

UNVOTE: tojam2

I admit you're more or less conftown now, but I'd also like to bring up the tangentially related point that the scum conveniently decided to attack tojam, who they had to have known was one shot town. Scum knows I was the most suspicious of tojam, so I'm making the assumption that they are hoping you all lynch me so that they can get away with a 2-1 win. Personally, I think this was a mistake on their part because it gives another day for town to regroup.
I mean, there's also the chance that both scum are complete noobs and just don't know what they're doing. I find this unlikely, however, because of how quickly they killed the JK.
This is just speculation, of course, but I'm finding a difficult time finding a justification for scum not

I also have a general question: does scum HAVE to kill at night? Can they choose not to?

Spoiler: Response to 727

I've touched on what AgentSparkles said in #370#387. I definitely do agree that Revan seems lost and falling short in his attempts to seem town. I don't see his scumhunts as genuine. He jumped on the bandwagon AGAIN after it was made pretty clear that last time he did that, he was labeled as suspicious. Not to mention this exchange:

VOTE: EL

I think this has a higher chance of being scum than Titus

You've made one post about EL's phrasing. I don't think you realize the reason you can't convince people to join you on EL is because you're not making a case.

What's changed between now and then?

I agreed with Titus's case.

???????? This is just a blatant contradiction. Between ~679 and when he votes me, Revan asks Titus multiple times to provide evidence and then states that the evidence she's providing isn't enough. (See #664#679#682#695) This is definitely something worth looking into.

Spoiler: Titus

Titus did flip town, but I still stand by my opinion that she was acting pretty scummy. I definitely regret not focusing on analysis of other players since I was so certain she was scum. I've outlined multiple times what I think was scummy about her, so I'm not going to put in the effort of building a quote wall.

I'd also like to put it out there that I'm having a hard time reading GL and AS because GL's playing style (or at least thinking style, I'm not good with words) is very similar to mine and AS' playing style seems to be very different. SS seems to be much less verbose than I'd prefer. Lots of her posts are questions, however, which I associate with genuine scumhunting.
That said, I'm not going to vote until later because I don't want an early lynch.

[EccentricLemon]

I never finished that thought under "tojam". That sentence is supposed to read: "This is just speculation, of course, but I'm finding a difficult time finding a justification for scum not going for a vanilla townie."

[EccentricLemon]

The way you worded it was definitely confrontational.

[EccentricLemon]

That's why I said "more or less conftown".

[EccentricLemon]

Yeah Revan, you haven't provided evidence other than assurances yet. I don't want to lynch you just yet because we still have a lot of time, but I'd appreciate it if you gave some justification to your scumreads.

Sobolev, if you don't want a lynch right now, why are you voting? Having your vote on someone means there's only two votes left to a hammer.

[EccentricLemon]

I think Sobolev is justified in scumreading Revan but not voting him yet. I'm not saying that's a towntell, but I think it makes sense the way she puts it.

[EccentricLemon]

Scum team is GL/EL.

Oh so we're going to go down this road again. I've already proved why it's unlikely that you changed your mind, since you specifically said Titus' theory doesn't make any sense. Sounds to me like you're trying to instigate a wagon against GL and I to save yourself.

[EccentricLemon]

Are you trying to seem like Titus because she flipped town? Because if you ask me, her behavior was pretty scummy. Therefore this makes yours seem double scummy to me.

[EccentricLemon]

@The people that want to lynch me today, who do you think my partner is?

I only tr SS because of bowdown

I honestly could see AS being your partner because of your unwillingness to answer his analysis, which was pretty extensive.
I think SS could also work, but I keep getting closer and closer to a townread on her. However, Revan has been retaliating to the people that want to lynch him, of which SS is one of the most vocal, and then places a townread on her. I would expect more of a retaliation in this case.
I could also see GL tbh, because he seems a lot less concerned with pushing Revan than he did Titus. I think that partnership is a bit less likely though considering that Titus flipped town and he is probably just being cautious.
Don't take this statement as an assertion that I think AS, GL, and SS are scum. I'm merely pointing out scenarios and explaining that I'm still suspicious of all of them.

I still can't wrap my head around why scum would go for Tojam. It just doesn't make sense. They went for an obvious extension of the game, which plays to town's advantage. I think we're dealing with noob scum here.
I'd just like to get this out there: is it possible that scum could have chosen not to kill last night to make Tojam seem town? It's way out there and it's highly unlikely this happened, but it's still something to keep in mind. I think it's more likely that scum is noob though.

Revan has tried to use a wagon against me to his advantage twice now, he keeps changing his opinion without any obvious analysis, and above all, he seems to be trying to emulate Titus' gameplay yesterday. Revan is my highest scumread right now, but I still don't want to lynch when we still have a few days' time.

[EccentricLemon]

I guess I'm just being super paranoid. Sorry tojam for being all on your tail.

[EccentricLemon]

Revan hasn't said anything of value for a while now, and his last post was more than 48 hours ago. I'd like to give him a chance to at least respond to the points that have been brought up since then. I'll be back in ~25 hours after this post. There isn't much to contribute that I don't think I've addressed already. I'm fine with you guys lynching Revan while I'm gone, and I'll vote him when I come back, unless we have another nancy-esque late push or he manages to give a convincing argument (but I doubt either of that will happen).